Starting From Zero Again and Again with Audra Doyle

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Have you ever wondered what it takes to start your own law firm? In this episode, guest Audra Doyle shares her journey from being an elementary music specialist to becoming an immigration lawyer and opening her own firm. Audra talks about the stress and high caseload at her previous job, but also the invaluable knowledge she gained from it. 

She also shares how she had to pivot during the pandemic to get more clients, including using social media platforms like TikTok — growing a massive following. Then losing her TikTok account … 

Audra shares her journey of losing her entire staff and starting over to build her team up again. But the most valuable lesson she shares is about mindset and staying focused on what is most important for the firm. No matter what happens.

Audra shares how she manages to stay positive through exercise, living in the moment, and setting boundaries. Tune in to learn more about the importance of mindset and how it can help you achieve your goals, even when you need to hit the restart button, again. 

Episode Highlight:

02:13 Audra talks about her journey from 2007 to 2019 when she opened up her firm

06:48 The stress and high caseload at the immigration firm, but also the invaluable knowledge Audra gained from it

12:95 Audra talks about her experience with posting on TikTok, losing her staff, and hiring new case managers instead of paralegals

18:46 Managing anxiety, including exercise and living in the moment, and the importance of setting boundaries

19:03 Audra shares her vision for her firm, including the goal of having a team that allows her to be the CEO and possibly hiring another attorney

20:27 Audra talks about the importance of mindset in running a law firm and how it affects the numbers

Jim’s Hack: Make a button on the homepage of your cell phone to open Pipedrive and check your numbers. Check numbers once a day – the more you check the more you make. 

Audra’s Tip: Answer common client questions in pre-made FAQ videos so all you have to do when a client emails a question is send then an email template with a video that answers the question for you – saving you time! 

Tyson’s Tip: Read the book “Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World” by Cal Newport

Watch the full video on YouTube here. 

Connect with Audra:

• • Website  
  • TikTok
  • Facebook
  • Linkedin
  • Youtube  

Resources:

• • Join the Guild Membership
  • Subscribe to the Maximum Lawyer Youtube Channel
  • Follow us on Instagram
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Transcript: Starting From Zero Again and Again with Audra Doyle

Jim Hacking:
And welcome back to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.

Tyson Mutrux:
And I’m Tyson Mutrix, what’s up Jimmy!

Jim Hacking:
Oh well, you know Tyson, life is good. Summertime, summertime, my daughter just finished eighth grade today, it was her last day of school. The boys are, two of the three boys are home for the summer so life is good.

Tyson Mutrux:
It’s interesting to me because like our kids… They started summer school today. So they were out last week. And they’re not gonna go the whole summer, but we wanted to get Jackson especially acclimated to middle school because it’s a big deal. So they’re gonna go a couple days this week and then maybe a couple days next week and then periodically throughout the summer whenever we need a little bit of childcare coverage. But yeah, you’re right, life is good. It’s exciting.

Jim Hacking:
You want to go ahead and introduce our guest today?

Tyson Mutrux:
I absolutely do. I’m very excited about our guest. She is Audra Doyle, and she is the owner slash attorney of Doyle Law in Atlanta, Georgia. Open since 2019, her firm focuses on family and employment-based immigration law with a special focus on self-sponsored employment-based green card applications. Audra has been practicing immigration law since 2007 and is a recipient of the AILA Pro Bono Benefactor Award, and we’ll get into more later on. Audra, thank you and welcome to the show.

Audra Doyle:
Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here and hope you guys are doing well.

Jim Hacking:
Thanks, Audra. Hey Tyson, your mic is a little low. It’s like.

Tyson Mutrux:
Is that better?

Jim Hacking:
Much better, thanks.

Tyson Mutrux:
Oh, yeah. Thanks for letting me know.

Jim Hacking:
Sure. So, Ms. Audra,

Audra Doyle:
Yes.

Jim Hacking:
it’s great to have you on the show finally. It’s way overdue and Tyson and I have both found your positive nature and your sense of humor and your. Approach to life to be something that we really enjoy and we like we like having you in the guild and just hanging around But for those of our listeners who don’t know you Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that story from 2007 to 2019 when you opened up your firm?

Audra Doyle:
Absolutely. So yeah, 2007 became a lawyer and I knew halfway through law school that I wanted to practice immigration law. I specifically knew that the type of cases that were my favorite and I’m lucky enough to have been able to stay in that field the whole time, which is US immigration, family and employment based cases. Particularly, I enjoy working with folks who are sponsoring themselves. So scientists, entrepreneurs. artists, musicians, all those types of people that don’t have a job where they would be able to be sponsored by an employer. That is my niche. I just love it. And one thing that I love about immigration law is getting to meet so many interesting people from around the world. So it really does check all my boxes. So 2007, I started out with a boutique law firm, you know, had a high client load. downtown Atlanta, corporate job, and I was pretty burnt out by 2009. So the opportunity came for me to go back to a smaller law firm, smaller setting, where I had complete control, or I would say 90% complete control over the clients that I chose and the clients that I was gonna work with back into my niche again. And so I took that job in 09. My boss retired in 2019 and I actually purchased her law firm, which was wonderful because I purchased the goodwill of the firm. It was 20 years old by the time she retired. I had that wonderful client base. I had a Rolodex of connections and that really helped me to open my own law firm based on what I had already been doing with many of those clients. So from 2019 until now, It’s been Doyle Law and I have also really enjoyed being a firm owner. So I feel very lucky that I’ve been able to do things that I’m interested in and that I’m not bored with my job at all.

Tyson Mutrux:
So this is not your first career, this is your second career,

Audra Doyle:
Correct.

Tyson Mutrux:
so tell us about that, what’d you do before, and then what was the transition like?

Audra Doyle:
Well, I asked my husband, hey, am I going to be allowed to tell the story of how I became a lawyer? He said, yeah, go ahead and tell them. Okay. So my husband and

Jim Hacking:
Thank

Audra Doyle:
I

Jim Hacking:
you.

Audra Doyle:
met in music school. We are both music majors and I was an elementary music specialist. So I have a specialist certification, taught elementary school music for five years, and that was my career. I knew it all along. That’s what I wanted to do. Well, two music teachers in the family is one too many. And we discovered quickly that with the school systems, we were never gonna be able to work even remotely close together. So one of us had to do something different. And one day for my birthday, he signed me up for the LSAT. And he gave me an LSAT study guide. So

Jim Hacking:
Wow.

Tyson Mutrux:
Oh, that’s fantastic.

Audra Doyle:
that is how that

Tyson Mutrux:
Yes.

Audra Doyle:
happened. He said, well, you never got around to signing up, so I just went ahead and signed up for you. Okay, fine. I’ll take the LSAT. So I passed, of course, and got into a few law schools. And another thing, here’s the thing about my life, never say never, right? So I said, oh, I’m never moving to Atlanta. I don’t want to live in the big city. Well, here I am. Because the next phase was, where am I going to go to law school? I got a scholarship to Georgia State University. So I had signed up for the University of Georgia. I called them. from my school that I was working at said, hey, I’ll bring you my deposit this afternoon. Round about lunchtime, I get an emergency phone call while I’m teaching. They’re like, Mrs. Doyle, you have an emergency call and run up the hall. So you know schools, the halls are very long. So, you know, going up the hall, it’s Georgia State. And they’re like, hello, we would like to offer you a full scholarship to come to Georgia State. So I laughed and thought it was a joke, but it was real. And that’s how I ended up in Atlanta. going to Georgia State and, you know, immigration law just kind of fell in my lap as well. I took an internship and discovered I loved it. So that’s my journey.

Tyson Mutrux:
That’s awesome.

Jim Hacking:
When you, that is an awesome story. Go ahead, we’re gonna add something, Audra.

Audra Doyle:
Yeah, I just said I’m not mad at him for signing me up for the LSAT.

Jim Hacking:
We had a friend in law school whose wife bought herself a red Mercedes without telling her husband. So I think signing someone up for the LSAT a little bit better than

Audra Doyle:
Yeah,

Jim Hacking:
that.

Audra Doyle:
absolutely.

Jim Hacking:
So talk to us about your life at that immigration firm that you were at, the big firm. What did you learn that you liked? And what did you learn that you wanted to do differently when you ever were to open your own

Audra Doyle:
Absolutely.

Jim Hacking:
firm?

Audra Doyle:
Well, I ended it on a good note, but as I said, the stress was just so much that I knew I could not make a career out of it. For employment-based immigration in the larger law firms, usually you’ll have customers who are big corporations and you’ll be dealing with, for example, working visas, you’re going to file 10 to 20 working visas, maybe in a month and So the caseload was very, very high. I also did not get to choose my caseload. So even though I, as a lawyer, would feel that the case was not strong enough, I was directed that I had to go make it happen. Even if the facts are bad, the law is not on our side, etc., that’s what the client wanted. So I felt like I was pretty constrained and what I could advise people to do and the types of cases that I thought were… good to be filed with immigration. And the hours were just really long as well. The commute was really long. And after a while, I was burnt out. Now, what I learned at that firm was invaluable. I discovered that I really like the technicalities of immigration law. It gave me a very, very deep well of knowledge. that I still use to this day. So I’m very thankful to have worked there and to have had that experience.

n

Tyson Mutrux:
Audra, what do you think now that you’ve got some years under

Audra Doyle:
Mm-hmm.

Tyson Mutrux:
your belt, like what do you think if you were to go back and do it all over again, what do you think you would have changed about how you’ve done things? If anything, maybe you’d be doing it the exact same way. I just wonder

Audra Doyle:
Hello.

Tyson Mutrux:
because now you’ve got some experience under your belt, right? So I just wonder what you’d change.

Audra Doyle:
I think one thing I would change is I would want to open my firm sooner than I did. I wish that I could have opened this firm maybe 2012 or 2013 instead of 2019. Because I feel like I’m just getting started, even though I’m in the middle of my career. I’m just getting started as a business owner three years in. And I feel like I would have been further in my career, in my business. you know, than if I had started earlier. So that’s one thing I would definitely change. As far as the field, I love it. One thing about being an immigration lawyer, it doesn’t translate very well to other things. So, you know, if I wanted to add a practice area, I think it would be, it would be a lot of work to go out and learn another practice area at this point.

Jim Hacking:
Audra, I was wondering if you’d be willing to share sort of where your clients come from and then if you could tell your TikTok story if you’re willing.

Audra Doyle:
Absolutely. And I have big news about the TikTok story. So I’ll share that at

Jim Hacking:
Nice.

Audra Doyle:
the end. Okay. So I would say it’s half and half at this point. My clients definitely are those referrals, all those relationships that I’ve made from the old firm. And then the other half, I have had to be really nimble. I have had to get savvy. And I started doing that in 2020 when business just about dried up. I had to… I had to pivot, figure out how to get clients because people were just not calling. So I decided, first thing was to post something on Facebook every day. Started doing that. Then I heard about TikTok and I saw these dancing lawyers on TikTok. That’s not me. You will never catch me dancing on TikTok. But I thought, you know what, I have something to say. I have information to share about how to get through this process. the right way, the wrong way, you know, do’s and don’ts of immigration. So I said, I can make a 15 second video. And it’s so easy. With your knowledge area, it is so easy. You could sit here and talk here for eight hours about what you know. And so it was easy for me to figure out how to break that down into a 15 minute clip, smile, be engaging, look at your clients. And I figured out that yes, I can do that. So I started posting one TikTok every day, one Facebook post. one TikTok and I dedicated myself to that. Jim, previously, while I was still at the old law firm, I had opened a YouTube channel. So that was already underway. So I noticed that my TikTok channel blew up. It was really amazing. I think I had like 65,000 followers on TikTok and then they shut my channel down. It was horrible. It was last fall. was receiving cold calls, about half of my cold calls were coming from TikTok. So that deep sixed my cold calls right there. It was really terrible. And I had to once again pivot. Um, so I opened up another channel. I figured out what was the problem. And I think it was putting my business phone number on the TikTok channel. So heads up everybody. I’m pretty sure that’s why they shut me down. They kept saying, you’re listing personal information. And I kept one. What are you talking about? And I’m pretty sure it was the phone number. So I have learned and I never post my phone number now on the TikTok videos. And so far I have not had another video taken down. But the big news is that as of last night, I’ve reached 10,000 followers on the new channel.

Jim Hacking:
Nice.

Audra Doyle:
So I’m so excited about that. It doesn’t mean anything, but it was just a personal goal to try and come back from zero. And it feels really good.

Jim Hacking:
You have such a great attitude though. It’s just, I mean, Tyson, we say it all the time, just Audra’s a very positive person and I think that story exhibits it nicely.

Audra Doyle:
Thank you. Thank you. There.

Tyson Mutrux:
That’s huge.

Audra Doyle:
And let me share with you. My life is not all hearts and flowers. I have, to be completely honest, I have dealt with anxiety. I’ve dealt with depression. And I’ve had to figure out, what do I need to do to help myself? So just sharing with everybody out there, if you’re seeing that you’re struggling in some way, it’s OK to go get help. And I’m coming from a family where that was taboo to even say that I need to go talk with someone. But it’s 2023, it’s not taboo anymore. And it has really helped me to grow as a person to seek that help.

Tyson Mutrux:
Well, I’m glad you said that because I am going to ask you about something tough that you did have to go through. And that’s if you’re comfortable talking about it is you losing your entire staff

Audra Doyle:
Yes. Yes.

Tyson Mutrux:
nin 2022 and going through that. So what was that like and how do you rebound from it? Because that’s not easy.

Audra Doyle:
That was pretty awful. It was pretty bad and it was shocking. I was not expecting it to happen. I had my paralegal, he was fully trained, he was amazing. And another law firm in town hired him away. I had my executive assistant who was also amazing, but her career is in the movies. And so she got a job at a movie studio. So I was like, of course, please go. The other one, she said, oh, my brother wants me to work with him. Of course, go with it. So each person, you know, it was nothing wrong with the firm because I wanted to see, you know, is there anything going on wrong here that’s making people leaving, but I truly don’t think there was. Life just happened. And it sucked really bad because I had to hire a whole new team starting in I think around April is when they all started. So I was starting from zero. And once again, it’s kind of like taking a step backwards. You know, you’ve got momentum in your firm. Everybody knows their job. Everybody knows how to do things. Everybody knows how to talk on the phone. To zero, nobody knows anything. So last year, for the whole year, I feel like I was training and getting people up to speed. And I think, Jim, you can speak to this. You know, training in immigration paralegal takes quite a while. So one thing I noticed, and I’ll talk about my team in a minute, is that In 2022, 2023, paralegals are very hard to find. I don’t know if you guys have experienced that, but boy, it is so hard to find good help. So I had to be very creative. I hired case managers instead of paralegals because I had to have somebody just doing the work, making the copies, printing the documents, drafting the forms. It’s like, okay, we can get some case managers in here. I’ll be handling the paralegal work and just try to make it work until I find a good paralegal. It never happened. I never found a qualified ready to go fully trained paralegal. So I in this winter spring 2023, I decided to change what I’m asking for. And I said I want to hire a case manager posted it on deed will train the goal is for you to become a paralegal. No experience necessary. I got so many applicants of people who want to be a paralegal. They have zero experience, no immigration experience. And I found a gem. But she had never been a paralegal. So my previous ad wasn’t working. She never applied. But she actually went to law school in Brazil. So I know she’s got the legal mind that I can train and turn her into a paralegal one day.

Jim Hacking:
We’ve had the exact same experience. We’ve run the same job posting, one as an admin, one as a paralegal, but the description is exactly the same. It’s the title of paralegal that puts people off because they think they need to have a paralegal certificate.

Audra Doyle:
Exactly. Yep. It was just a ghost town with applicants. And then I made the change, said, you know, we’ll train. You can start from zero. I just need to have somebody with the brain cells up there that can, you know, learn and grow and be willing to do some tough things with immigration. And I found somebody that I really hope is going to stay with me a long time.

Jim Hacking:
You’re listening to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. Our guest today, Audra Doyle, immigration lawyer extraordinaire out of Atlanta. Audra, talk to us a little bit about your mindset. Like how, you talked about anxiety and depression and I think a lot of us have suffered from those kinds of things, but how do you sort of on a day-to-day basis keep yourself balanced and keep that positive attitude that we’ve seen for so long?

Audra Doyle:
trying a lot of different things. So if something’s not working for me, I know that I have to move on and try something different. So Jim, I actually took a note from you. Something that I started doing when I get home from work is I go get on the treadmill. Just take myself a nice 20 minute walk, decompress, and it really clears my head. So right now, exercise is something that is helping my mindset, helping me to stay grounded. Another thing that I try to… do a couple of things is I try to live in the moment. I’m not looking towards the future and worrying about what might happen tomorrow. I’m just focusing on what can I do today? What can I do in this moment to move myself forward, my firm forward? If I’m with my family, I’m in that moment with them. And I try to turn off the lawyer brain and the business owner brain. That’s very hard to do, but I really try to make a conscious effort to do that. The last thing that I learned through therapy and a lot of reading is I made boundaries for myself. I’m from Georgia. I am a woman. There I was taught that there are no boundaries and anything that anybody tells me to do, that’s what I need to go do, right? I was not, I don’t think I gave myself permission to say no. And these days I have boundaries. I know, you know, I can’t do everything. And I give myself permission to say no. to not take on difficult cases, to make sure clients are staying in their lane as we say, and it has just made my life a lot more peaceful.

Tyson Mutrux:
I love that. And again, I just love your positivity.

Audra Doyle:
Thank

Tyson Mutrux:
It’s

Audra Doyle:
you.

Tyson Mutrux:
always just great. So what’s on the horizon for you? Do you have these big grand plans of having this massive immigration firm or are you wanting to sort of stay smaller? What are your plans for the future?

Audra Doyle:
I have a really clear plan and vision, and I’ve been open since 2019 and I haven’t met it yet. So until I do that, I don’t want to make my vision any larger. So I want to have my firm to a place where I do not have to physically be here, telling everybody what to do all day long. That’s the goal. And now I feel like I have a team where I can start to really push towards that goal. And that will want to give myself more freedom. to be the finder and not the minder. And I remember that old podcast you guys did, those three things, finder, minder, grinder. So last year I was just grinding it out. This year I’m minding a lot more. And in the future I would like to be the CEO. I want to be looking over the firm and possibly even have an attorney to start signing the forms instead of me. Because if I’m the only attorney here, I’m never going to be able to let go of everything like I need to. So I think after this paralegal really takes off, the next hire for me should be another attorney.

Jim Hacking:
I know that you’re going to be joining us at the mastermind

Audra Doyle:
Yeah.

Jim Hacking:
in Denver and I’m excited about seeing you talk to us a little bit about your mindset when it comes to personal development Sort of joining the guild, you know mindset stuff like what? What what’s your frame of reference when it comes to trying to decide whether or not to do something like that?

Audra Doyle:
That’s a great question, Jim. And that is the reason I actually signed up for the Guild Mastermind in July, because I really debated, do I really need to go? Do I really need to work on my mindset with Dr. Selk? You know, oh, it’s not a technical guild thing. But I thought to myself, you know, honestly, if my mindset is not right, I can see the numbers go down every single time. And I’ve noticed that when I am the most focused, You know, I am good with myself. My firm functions at its best. So I thought, you know what, actually mindset for me seems to be what I need to focus on next. Because in this job, you can get lost in the day to day. I was telling Tyson, you know, before we started that today I had a bunch of mushrooms pop up. You know, you look out in the yard at night, there’s nothing, you look out one minute later, there’s mushrooms everywhere. Well, that’s how the day went. And so dealing with all those little issues has taken my mind off of what is on my calendar, what I need to be focusing on, making my YouTube video, new business development. And so if I can’t step back and see that and see, all right, I’m down here in the weeds, I need to step back again, and I need to stay focused on what is most important for this firm. and it is very easy for me to get off track. So hopefully this summer, I’m gonna find some more tools to help me.

Jim Hacking:
That’s going to be the clip that Becca is going to take off and put in the social feed.

Audra Doyle:
of the pressure.

Tyson Mutrux:
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I love it. So it’s funny to say that about the mindset because I never would have believed it. I was like, there’s no way that it has that big of an effect. But since I’ve been working with Jason, it’s got a massive

Audra Doyle:
It,

Tyson Mutrux:
effect. It definitely starts with mindset

Audra Doyle:
yeah, and another

Tyson Mutrux:
completely.

Audra Doyle:
thing, you know, I’ll be open and honest, is procrastination. I think a lot of us procrastination goes hand in hand with anxiety over being perfect. And I definitely have that disease where I want it to be perfect. And then when I know it’s not gonna be perfect, or, you know, just is really hard to execute. So I’m looking for more tools to help me not, the good is better done. then the perfect is not done. And I really want to focus on those types of things with Dr. Silk this summer.

Tyson Mutrux:
Love it. I can’t

Audra Doyle:
Mm-hmm.

Tyson Mutrux:
wait. Well, we are at time, so we’re going to wrap things up. I’ve really enjoyed this. So this is great. It’s sad that we’re going to wrap things up, but I’ve really enjoyed it. So I want to remind everyone to join us in the big Facebook group. There’s a lot of great information being shared on a daily basis, on an hourly basis. So join us there. If you’ve not, just go to Facebook, search Maximum Lawyer. If you want a higher level conversation, go to maxlawguild.com with people like Audra. MaxLawGuild.com and then you’ll have the opportunity once you’ve joined to join us at the Quarterly Masterminds and other things like Jason Selt coming in the next couple of months Nice little retreat out in Denver, which is awesome We also had the Zapathon and we’ve also had the video workshop that Jim put on which was amazing And so join us there go to MaxLawGuild.com and then while you’re listening to the rest of this episode If you’ll give us a five-star review, we will greatly appreciate it. Audra What’s actually I did it again Jimbo Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week? That’s twice today. Jim, what’s your hack of the week?

Jim Hacking:
Speaking of the guild, we had an interesting discussion in the guild the other day. It was one of the, I would say newer members, I think, was asking about how often law firm owners should be looking at their numbers. And different people chimed in. And just for what it’s worth, I have Pipe Drive set up so that I can keep track because I’m sort of responsible for signups and intake. And so I have it all tricked out so that I have it now. It’s just a button on my iPhone. I made the webpage a button in Safari so that I can look and see. Exactly what the numbers are as far as you know new new leads in how many contracts were sent how many were signed? How many people paid that day? So to me it’s it’s sort of at least once a day kind of a thing Where you need to be checking your numbers daily? I think and the more I will say this the more I’ve checked my numbers the more money I’ve made So I used to not want to check my numbers at all and say I’m not a numbers guy I don’t want to know about this stuff, but Certainly as you get bigger and bigger, you really got to start paying attention to this stuff because it can be really important for cash flow and other reasons.

Tyson Mutrux:
Everything you need to know is in the numbers. So I agree with you, Mba. All right, Audra, now it’s your turn. What is your tip or hack of the

Audra Doyle:
Okay,

Tyson Mutrux:
week?

Audra Doyle:
nthis is hopefully a very helpful tip to everyone. I got tired of answering the same questions all the time. So what I did was made a series of videos on YouTube and they’re unlisted, so they’re only for my clients, and it answers common questions. So a client will say, oh, I’ve got a biometrics appointment coming. What’s going on? What do I have to do? Click video done. And I have a template email. I put the video in there so they can read it, they can see it, they can hear it, and their question will be answered. And it has really reduced my time in answering those everyday questions.

Tyson Mutrux:
Love it. Very good stuff. Mine is from the book. I talked about the book. on the last episode, but this one’s from that book. It’s from Cal Newport, and it’s a way of reducing distractions and eruptions, making your day more efficient, and it’s a very simple thing. I don’t know if you all use Audra, if you use Slack or something like that. I think Jim, I think you use Slack, but I don’t know about you, but I bet you get a bunch of messages throughout the day. And so something we’ve started is, we just started this week, so we’re in the beginning stages of it, but we’re implementing office hours. has office

Audra Doyle:
Yes.

Tyson Mutrux:
hours and they’re at different times and they’re not at the same time. And so if someone needs something, they’ll hold on to their questions or comments or concerns and they’ll reach out to you during that time. And so I’m looking forward to it at the amount of distractions going down. I think will be awesome. And so it’s just a, I look forward to lower anxiety is what I’m looking forward to, but office hours.

Jim Hacking:
I was just wondering about this the other day. Do you know, like, could I say, like, from 10 to 12, everybody’s Slack is parked and idle, or, like, can we do that as a whole firm, or do what everybody has to do it individually?

Tyson Mutrux:
Um, I, I think you could do, I mean, you could do that if you wanted to, you can do whatever you want, but yeah, uh, I, I actually think that that’s a really smart idea there are, uh, there’s a, there’s a, uh, a strategy it’s called XP. I can’t remember what it stands for, but he talks about in the book where. Like. What they do is when they show up to work, they set eight hours. And they’re all coders. And so for them to be in Silicon Valley and only working 40 hours a week is actually quite low. But what they do is they come in, they lock in. Like they’re working from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. or whatever the hours are. And they’re not sending messages. If they wanna talk to someone, they actually have to go and physically walk over and talk to them. But it’s kind of what you’re talking about where they’ve like for a certain set of hours, in. And so yeah, you could absolutely do that. I think it would be harder for your leads team to do something like that because of calls coming in and all that. But I think for other teams, absolutely. They just lock in. They’re working for that time. There’s like zero interruptions. That’s good. So I think that’s a good question. But Audra, thank you so much for coming on. Really, really appreciate it. It’s always a pleasure talking

Audra Doyle:
Same.

Tyson Mutrux:
to you.

Audra Doyle:
I enjoyed this so much. Thank you guys for asking.

Jim Hacking:
Bye, Audra.

Audra Doyle:
Bye-bye.

Tyson Mutrux:
Absolutely. Bye, Audro.

Jim Hacking:
Bye, Tyson.

Tyson Mutrux:
See ya.

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