In this episode, Jim and Tyson interview Shawn Hamp, a criminal defense lawyer who lives in the Cincinnati area and has an office in Arizona. They will go over his business and how does he run the law firm remotely. Management, employees, clients, intake, systems, logistics, team communication and more!
A lifestyle decisión:
Shawn and his wife decided to raise their kids in Cincinnati where they’d be close to their family. So he would have to run his law firm remotely…
“It was kind of the second leap that I had to make. The first leap was going out on my own after leaving the county attorney’s office.”
There were a lot of steps to make this happen. Some of them:
– Figure out what type of courts that he could appear remotely in.
– Coordinate logistics logistics of computer systems and phone systems.
– Key hires of attorneys that could do the day to day court.
“Basically what I do full time now is work on marketing, intake and administration of the office. It’s business development. Fortunately, that is the kind of stuff that I love doing.”
Also, they will discuss the difference between finding clients remotely in small cities and big cities.
“I have a competitive advantage because I am a big fish in a small pond…Even if it’s remotely”
About Shawn:
Shawn Hamp has practiced law for more than 17 years with emphasis in criminal law: https://www.hamplaw.com/shawn-b-hamp
The Firm:
https://www.hamplaw.com
Hacking’s hack:
A book. Willpower Doesn’t Work: Discover the Hidden Keys to Success. by Benjamin Hardy.
It’s about how we need to spend more time setting up our environment for success.
Shawn’s tip and hack:
Hack: An app: BIGVU: A teleprompter video recorder so you can do selfie cam videos while reading the text from the screen of your phone.
BIGVU APP
Tip: Focus on local search. Because everything these days is about above the fold on Google, being on map packs, being on mobile search. Getting reviews. Making sure your name and address are correct. SEO. Traditional content is changing.
https://whitespark.ca/
Tyson’s tip:
Another podcast! Business Wars
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1335814741
They go through a variety of different companies that fought each other.
//
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Transcripts: Running a Law Firm Remotely
Shawn
People call you because you know, you’re the face of the firm. You’re the name that’s on the big sign up front or underneath the shingle. But you know, these clients, they just want help, you know, they just want legal help. They want good representation. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter which attorney is actually doing the legal services. And that was a huge revelation to me, when I figured that out.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast via podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome
Jim Hacking
to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson matrix. What’s up Jimmy
Jim Hacking
Eisen, my friend, I’m glad your internet is working.
Tyson Mutrux
It was not my internet. I told you that it was my computer. But I’m pretty excited. We got a pretty awesome guest. I don’t even know. Apparently there’s something that you asked Shawn about whether we could talk about I don’t even know what it is. So I’m actually interested to see what it is.
Jim Hacking
You might recall that before you announced to the world that you were working in Colombia and maintaining an office in St. Louis, that you were a little bit concerned about everyone knowing your business and specifically about where you were living. So Shawn lives in Cincinnati or in the Cincinnati area, and he has a office in a criminal defense office in Arizona. So I’ve always thought that was interesting, and I had a chance to talk to him about it at the maximum lawyer conference. And so we are pleased to have Sean HAMP on the show. Sean, thanks for being here, man.
Shawn
Hey, thank you, Jim and Tyson for having me. Good to be here.
Tyson Mutrux
Sean, just tell everybody about yourself about your firm. I see the two clocks in the background. That’s kind of funny. So talk a little bit about the basic setup of your firm and what you’ll do.
Shawn
Well, yeah, my name is Sean Hamp. I am a criminal defense attorney who practices criminal law in northwest Arizona. I’ve been practicing for about 18 years. I’m a native of Arizona. And basically, I got my first real job up in Kingman, Arizona, and northwest Arizona started out as a prosecutor for six years. And then after working at the prosecutor’s office, I started my own private firm. And we have a total of five attorneys for which are full time. One includes my wife. And that’s what I have. That’s my practice. But I actually live in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I run my practice remotely.
Jim Hacking
And was that always your plan, Shawn, it just sort of grow that way? Or how did it all come to pass.
Shawn
So I met my wife. I met my wife about 10 years ago, and she was an attorney at the public defender’s office, and I was a private attorney. And we met in court. And she came to Arizona via Cincinnati, she went to University of Cincinnati. And we eventually got married, started a family. But her family was always back in Cincinnati. And she always had plans on moving back there. So we decided as a family decision that it would be good to raise our kids in Cincinnati, whether it be closer to my wife’s family. So it was basically a lifestyle decision that we made to do that. And, you know, I had been flying. I’ve been visiting Cincinnati for many years. And we just made that decision. And I told my wife that I felt that when I was financially independent, that I would be comfortable moving to Cincinnati, from Arizona. And eventually, I started kind of figuring out the logistics of doing that of running a practice remotely. And there was a lot of steps that I did to make that leap. It was kind of like the second leap that I had to make the first leap was just going out on my own after leaving the county attorney’s office. But the second leap was just saying, hey, let’s let’s do this. Let’s see if I can make it work. And so far, I mean, I don’t want to sound like I’m humbly bragging. But you know, it’s been very successful since I’ve moved. And I mean, there’s a lot of steps. There’s a lot of steps that it take to make that happen. You know, some of the things that I had to do was, I had to figure out, you know, I knew the local court systems, so I started figuring out, you know, what type of courts that I could appear remotely in, I had to figure out how to, you know, coordinate, you know, the logistics of, you know, computers systems and phone systems. And you know, also, you know, I do criminal defense. So that requires a lot of court time. And before I did make the move ahead and make sure I had some key hires, that hire attorneys that could actually do the day to day court, even if I was unable to do it right away, there was a lot of steps to kind of make that happen and to plan for it to happen,
Tyson Mutrux
I guess, how did you deal with clients? I mean, how did they take the fact that you’d be moving to a new state, a new city, you wouldn’t be as accessible as normal? I mean, how did you deal with that transition?
Shawn
You know, that’s, that was something that would come up with clients, existing clients, and then it came up with, with new clients. And basically, you know, I’ve been doing this for two years now. It’ll be two years. This July was July 4, when I rolled into town into Cincinnati, and not quite burn the ships goodbye. But that’s when I rolled in town. So this has been going on for two years. And initially, what I would do is, I would come out like every six weeks, I would take a pretty inexpensive flight from Cincinnati direct flight to Las Vegas, and now a drive to Kingman. And I would do that about every six weeks. So maybe that would be longer than some courts would want to schedule some status hearings for criminal cases. That just wasn’t too out of the norm, too extreme to have hearings scheduled that that much apart. But what I would tell clients is like, you know, hey, I’m very interested in your case, I want to work with you. I know the court system, but I split my time between Arizona and the East Coast. And when you know, I’ll handle your case. And I’ll be there for those court hearings. That’s initially what I did for a couple of years. It’s only been this past year, where I have really not gone back to Arizona, and I have a staff and attorneys that pretty much handle the criminal caseload full time.
Jim Hacking
So Shawn, how does it work? As far as signing up new clients, I would assume that people facing criminal charges are stressed out and want to speak with an attorney. Are you doing consults remotely or are the people in your office in Arizona,
Shawn
so I have always done consults by the phone. I never did consultations in person. And that really worked out a lot of my clients were from out of state anyway, the people that were contacting me were folks that basically came in through Kingman came in through Mojave County. They were from out of town, they were either stopped on the interstate, or they’re visiting, you know, some of the tourist locations in Mojave County like Lake Havasu. Grand Canyon, west, Lake Mead, you know, I had a lot of clients that were from out of state, so it wasn’t like I was doing in office consultations, and people were expecting to meet me. So and the other thing I didn’t mention earlier was that being in a rural county, and knowing the courts, I figured out very quickly, which courts rule courts will let me phone in for my cases. And I tried to take cases that were that could be handled by mail in pleadings, or by telephone court appearances. But I basically, I’ve really expanded past that I do full service criminal defense. So that’s what I do now basically, full time is that I do the intake. And I basically have a number of I have about three different answering services, virtual receptionists, and then I have a full time intake person in Arizona. And basically what we do is we get the leads, and then I call them with my phone system, which is linked up with my office. It’s a voice over internet protocol, phone system. It’s a professional phone that I have in my office. And I basically take the leads, I text people, when I get new leads, I text people right away, then I call them I talk about the situation with them on the phone. And then you know, I explained to them that you know, that the attorneys I’ll tell them who which attorney is going to be handling the case. And I basically had the chance to build them up. I basically have the opportunity to brag about my staff to these potential clients and build them up. It’s much easier to talk about or brag about someone else than not bragging about yourself when you’re on the phone with with a potential client. And then the other thing too that I’ve I’ve kind of learned over the years is that people call you, because you know, you’re the face of the firm. You’re the name that’s on the big sign up front or underneath the shingle. But you know, these clients, they just want help, you know, they just want legal help. And they want help they want, they want good representation. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter which attorney is actually doing the legal services. And that was a huge revelation to me, when I figured that out. Because of that I’ve been able to grow, I’ve been able to trust it to know that other attorneys in my office can do the legal work and the clients will be happy. It doesn’t have to be doesn’t have to be me all the time, holding the clients hand.
Tyson Mutrux
So Shawn, I know that Jim, and I had a lot of questions for you at the conference. And so I want to try and get to the ones that are probably the ones that are most people’s minds. And the biggest ones, probably, how do you communicate with your team? Because I know, Dan Kennedy has this book that he wrote about managing people, and it’s pretty ruthless. But he talks about really, essentially, when you are away your employees will take advantage of. So how do you deal with things like how do you communicate with your team? And how do you deal with things like that where you’re away? You’re not in the same office
Shawn
with them? Well, it’s kind of funny, I read that Dan S. Kennedy book, he has a bunch of very colorful books with colorful titles. And I agree with one of the principles that Dan Kennedy talks about is about time management. And he says that, you know, you kind of need your own place away from other people, so you can actually get some work done. And honestly, I think that my office almost works better, that I’m not there. I think it was better that I’m not there day to day, it’s like people can do their job, they’re empowered to do their job. They don’t have to rely on me for all the answers all the time. And, but we do have a number of tools to communicate with each other. You know, we do have the VoIP phone system that we can dial each other and talk. But honestly, we use a lot of instant messaging, specifically with Google Hangouts in G Suite. We do a lot of team communications with instant messaging, I get messages on my phone, we have group chats. Sometimes we do video conferencing, Google’s just introduced a new upgraded Google messaging service that’s supposed to be like Slack. We’re starting to implement that now with the team. But it’s a lot of instant messaging. So we don’t use emails for communicating. We use a lot of instant messaging to communicate as a team. The other thing is, this is funny. He said, How do I keep track of ploys, we do have that constant communication, checking in with each other. I also have a Nest Cam in my lobby, and I have a nest thermostat. So I know when people are cranking the thermostat too high or too low. And then I can see who’s like who’s checking in. And the office is like actually coming to work with my Nest Cam. So I do have that as well.
Jim Hacking
Do any of your employees work remotely? Or do they all come to the office every day?
Shawn
My support staff has, they come to the office every day. And then my senior attorney, she is non equity partner, my firm, she’ll either work remotely, or she will come into the office. And she you know, we Mojave County, which is my home county, there’s like some there’s some different rural county, the rural towns in that that county, and she lives in like the neighboring town, bullhead city next to Kingman. So she works remotely, she doesn’t have to take the 3040 minute drive over to the next town over where my office is at. And then we’re also able to maintain virtual offices in other towns, it next to Mojave County, including the neighboring counties as well.
Jim Hacking
And then how do you monitor the cases themselves? Do you guys check in to the the attorneys report to you on the cases? How are you making sure that things aren’t falling through the cracks in a particular case?
Shawn
Well, the way I have it set up is I get all of the court correspondence, basically. And all the phone messages basically get forwarded to me and in through to my email account so I can kind of see what’s going on in terms of how the cases are going. And we have a CRM we use my case is our case management tool. And that allows me to re scan everything. I’ve been a paperless office since I basically started in private practice 12 years ago. So we can see what everybody else is doing on their cases when we use the CRM.
Tyson Mutrux
Do you focus your time on building the practice in Arizona? Or do you work on building the practice? And Cincinnati? A little bit of both? What what do you focus on when it comes to building your practice? Or are you basically just saying, I’m going to work remotely from Cincinnati? And we’re just going to focus on the practice in Arizona? How does that work?
Shawn
Well, I’m not licensed in Ohio, I am just licensed in Arizona, I do not practice law in Ohio, I don’t hold myself out as doing that. So I told my staff when I was moving, that when I made the decision, and, you know, before I even moved, it was about a year out. But I, the first step was to hire that associate. And I was very clear with her why I wanted to hire and what my plans were, were going to be, but a lot of my support staff, they had to convince them to buy into the fact that, you know, their boss was leaving was moving out of state. And I kind of told him, I said, Look, Jimmy, John does not work. At Jimmy, John’s, you know, Jimmy John’s has other workers, you know, this is going to be the Jimmy John’s this loves is going to be Jimmy John’s, and Shawn Hamp is not going to be in Kingman. And, you know, that was basically what I told them. And I told them, Look, I’m going to come back every few weeks, and I’m going to do some criminal cases, do some hearings, you know, basically. But now, since my last court hearing was in January, and now it’s June, it’s been five months since I’ve ever appeared in court. And, you know, basically, what I do full time now is I work on marketing, I work on intake. And I work on administration of the office. And basically, it’s business development. And fortunately, that’s the kind of stuff that I loved already doing. And it’s that business development, that’s even given me the opportunity to live this lifestyle where I had the chance to live, where I want to live, but have a business that’s thriving and is thriving on its own. So that’s basically what I do is I do the intake, I do the marketing, I you know, I try to make make sure that the phone’s ringing, the leads are coming in. And I also learned a long time ago, that, you know, people want to talk to a lawyer now, and you can’t talk to people. If you’re always stuck in court, you can’t talk to potential clients if you’re always in court. So now, I’m the one that always gets back to those new clients, get on the phone with them talk about the legal problem and try to figure out if if my firm is a good fit for them. And that’s, that’s, that’s huge. Being able just to just to talk to the people that are calling you,
Jim Hacking
I’ll have a number for Turkey, Tom with like mayo, hot peppers, and cucumbers and onions.
Shawn
Number four was sprouts, too. Yeah.
Jim Hacking
So I am intrigued. Mr. Shawn, by your business model, this is along the lines of what I’ve been talking about for a while of wanting to do have. I think that a lot of what you say makes sense. As far as if you’re focusing all your time working on cases, then you’re not going to be able to bring in as much business. I think we limit ourselves by taking on too many cases, and not having systems for giving up the work. My question that sort of is intriguing me is. Do you think it’s easier to find new clients remotely in a small town as opposed to in a big city?
Shawn
You know, that’s a great question. I would say the answer is yes. That’s why I’ve kept my practice. You know, I have a competitive advantage and knock on wood. I have a competitive advantage because I am a big fish in a small pond. And I was swimming in that pond for personally for 16 years, but I’m still in that pond, even if it’s remotely you know, virtually. I’m there. You know, I know where the courthouse is. I can picture the courthouse steps in my head. I know all the judges I worked with half of them when I was a prosecutor. You know, I know the system. I even know the neighboring counties where our market in and I’ve intentionally chosen to keep this practice open because I know that I’m the big name in my county. I own I own northwest Arizona folks and you know Oh, I choose it that way. And I work hard to make sure I stay that way. And I keep the attorneys from Phoenix, and you know who you are Phoenix, I work hard to keep those guys away out of my market. Because I own I own my market. And that’s why I’m still there. And I think it’s an advantage. And I think I’ve always tried to stay ahead of my competition ever since I went out on my own, you know, I was the first in my county in my market to have a website, you know, to be on social media to be on Facebook, to blog regularly and doing that. So I’m sure it’s way more competitive in a bigger market in a big city. But I try to do everything I can to just to maintain my edge and stay hungry, and to run my practice.
Tyson Mutrux
So whenever you open this new always eagerly opened new office, whenever you transitioned over to Cincinnati, I’m sure you made some mistakes, you probably made some really good decisions. What’s the one thing if you were to talk to another attorney about doing the same thing that you’re doing? What would you tell them
Shawn
to do? Well, I don’t know if it depends on the practice area or not. But the one thing I do is, look, I can’t be in court. Right? I can’t be physically there in court, I was lucky that I figured out which courts, I could be by appearing by phone and you know, maybe that’s going to change with the future. I don’t know. I just focus on what I could do remotely. And then I empower the people that still had to be there. I empowered them to do their job, so that they could get the get the work done. Back in Arizona.
Jim Hacking
Sean, let’s say that you wanted to pick a whole new geographic area, let’s say, an adjacent corner or part of Arizona, what would what would be your mindset going in? And what would you sort of think about in sort of a step by step sequence?
Shawn
Well, I’ve done that, you know, my firm was doing very well. And I’ll tell you what happened was about last October, back in October of 2017, I had my website rebuilt by law firm SEO website company, and they rebuilt my website, and they added a section for locations with this template. For the website, they added locations, thing, and I had, I had some virtual offices, some other locations on my original website. But when I had this new company, redo my website, they did the right technical things, the right schema, the right things for these locations to show up on the internet. And what I did was I when I rebuilt my website, I did market to the neighboring counties into Yabba, Pike County and La Paz County, La Paz County, being on the on the Colorado River, just south of my home county, and you have a pie is east. That’s, that’s where Prescott and Sedona is. And just south of the Grand Canyon, I went into those markets, I got some virtual offices in those locations. I went to Google, I claimed the business locations for those virtual offices. I had the phone numbers set up for them. I basically, I just added those locations to my website. And I also used made sure that those offices locations that they were put out there that they were on Google, they are on other attorney directories that I mentioned them. And that’s been really key. And we get a lot of we get a lot of cases from neighboring counties, and we figure out the logistics and we and we handle those courts.
Tyson Mutrux
So Shawn, you practice in what I would say is a very ego driven practice area as some of the use of practice criminal defense. It is it is for the most part pretty ego driven. And I’m actually not even talking from the attorneys perspective. I’m talking about from the clients perspective. They say I want in St. Louis, they want to say, I want Scott Rosenbloom. That’s why I want you know, so your website has your face on it, which is, you know, what’s your name? How would you deal with the clients that want you they want you in the courtroom, they want you to handle their case? How do you deal with that?
Shawn
Well, honestly, I don’t take them on as clients is the answer. That’s the short answer. I think in the beginning, if it was me, I would maybe have to charge for that. That privilege of having me. But honestly, Tyson, I’m being honest with you. And I’ve just kind of realized this is that Folks, you know, I tell them like, look, thank you for calling my office. Thank you for telling me the problem. We will love to have you as a client, and this attorney on my staff is the one that’s going to handle your case.
Tyson Mutrux
I’m going to push back a little bit, okay? Okay. Isn’t it reasonable though, for that person, when they come to your website, they see your picture your name to expect you?
Shawn
Well, they get me. I mean, I call them back. I’m the one that calls them back. I’m the one that sends them to tax. I’m the one that handles the client concerns, if there’s a problem during the representation, I’m the one that they can email. So they get me they mean, they get me from the beginning. And I’m fortunate enough, I think that I’ve been smart enough to hire good attorneys that can handle the legal work, the day to day legal work, and if there’s a problem, I can step in, and help and help them. But I try to be clear with the clients that you know, honestly, Tyson, I know you’re pushing back. But I’ve been doing this long enough to know that folks are not going to, I’m not going to lose business, because it’s gonna get handed off to someone else. I mean, you’ve seen all the big, the big names. And those big cities, I’m using air quotes, you see those big names, those big cities, those attorneys aren’t handling every case, either, you know, and I know that maybe they have the reputation as being a TV lawyer or whatever. But being the Big Shot and those those markets, but what I’m doing is no different than some of those, those personalities, some of those big names on the side of the bus. I mean, you know, those clients, those feel icon, those offices, they’re not getting them every day at every court hearing, right? A lot of the good ones, talk to them on the phone and sign them up as clients, I’m sure. But they’re not going to get those same lawyers in court every day. And you know, I just have a good staff and just try to build that expectation from the beginning with them.
Jim Hacking
Don, I like how you stick to your guns, and you sort of have firm boundaries about what you’re willing to do and what you’re willing not to do. I think I can learn a lot from you on that front. So we’re coming up against the end of the show. And for my last question is, where do you see yourself and your firm, say, three years from now?
Shawn
Well, that’s a great question. And you know, what worries me the most is making sure that I get new attorneys to come and work in the practice, and that they can buy into my firm culture, and that they are going to be good attorneys first, and that they’re going to be good team members. You know, second. And you know, right now, my senior attorney, she’s running for judge, you know, she has an election coming up this this summer, or primary. And if she wins, she’s going to be leaving my office by the end of the year. And I think that’s what keeps me up at night is how we’re going to replace her. You know, right now I have three attorneys doing criminal cases full time. She’s my senior attorney. And I got lucky with my last associate that I hired. And that’s what concerns me. So I’m hoping that, you know, we I continue to grow smarter, and I hope to keep adding staff. And I think, ultimately, it would be great if I could have attorneys and staff or attorneys that can do more the intake, and then I could work on, you know, some higher level goals, as they say, right now I do all the intake myself. And sometimes that takes me away from some some of the things that I want to do in my personal life or with my family. But you know, making sure you got the right staff and in place. I think that’s that’s the biggest challenge that I have. And it’s you know, the reality is that, you know, you’re gonna have, you’re gonna have turnover and your staff. That’s the biggest challenge I face.
Tyson Mutrux
I love it. All right, Shawn. So we’re gonna wrap it up. Hopefully you didn’t think I was criticizing you. I was not expecting to see how you react to that you handle it really well. And there are people like Craig Goldfarb down in Florida does pie with his names all over everything. And so he, he does a pretty effective job like you do, making sure that clients have the expectations set up right right up front, but we do want to be respectful of your time, everyone else’s time. So I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group. Those of you that are watching this are obviously all the Facebook group, but if you’re not make sure you join, go and join there. Also, please give us a five star review on iTunes, if you will. We have 44 five star reviews there but I want to get some more. And actually Jimmy I wanted to read this a few months ago you talked about reading a couple reviews and this is one from Justin Trueblood that I thought was kind of funny. love listening to this pod very informative and helpful. Those running their own law firms. In this part that’s funny. J and T gets straight to the point delivered gem after gem subscribe. So J and T baby, it’s the doing. So Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
Jim Hacking
Sounds like an old action movie with Sylvester Stallone and Kurt Russell JNT. Alright, so for my hack of the week, I stumbled across a book, called willpower doesn’t work by Ben Hardy. Ben Hardy is the most published author on medium.com. He has the most number of views. And he’s written this terrific little book, I’m listening to the audio version of it. And it’s basically about how we need to spend a lot more time setting up our environment for success, whether that’s for weight loss, or for focus at work, or any any sort of issue that we’re struggling with. It’s all about setting up the environment for success, as opposed to trying to white knuckle our way through things. So I’m really enjoying the book.
Tyson Mutrux
We’ll put in the show notes. And also, make sure put it in the comments. All right, Shawn, so you know the routine, what is your tip of the week?
Shawn
Well, I’m really excited to give you my tip of the week, I want to do a tip. Well, I want to do a hack. And a tip if I may, because I’ve been looking forward to this moment. So the hack, I found a really cool app the other week, it is called Big view. Big Vu, it is an app, I think it’s on iPhone, maybe Android, I’m not sure. But basically, it’s really cool. It is a teleprompter video recorder. So you can do selfie cam videos. And you can just read the tax on the front of your cam. And you can use the selfie camera on screen. And you can use a selfie cam to do videos. So I know that there’s a lot of discussion in the group about doing more videos. And a lot of people are nervous. Or maybe a lot of people are apprehensive about doing, you know, impromptu stuff. But I was looking to get into teleprompter. And I came across that app. And I think it looked pretty cool. My tip that I want to tell folks, and it’s kind of ironic, even though I’m a virtual lawyer. But I think my tip is to focus on local search. Because everything these days is about above the fold on Google, it’s on the being on map packs being a mobile search. It’s about getting reviews, making sure your name, address phone number are correctly trying to work on the SEO that will get you top results in local search. I think traditional content Trishul content isn’t dead, but it’s changing. And I think a one good resource for people to learn about how to get their firm visible on local searches, I would recommend that they visit white spark.ca. It’s a Canadian company. So it’s white spark.ca. A lot of great tips, advice and resources on how to get your business local visibility for local Google search.
Tyson Mutrux
That’s great advice. Really, really good advice. I’m glad you gave more. Yeah, more value. It’s awesome. So my tip of the week is actually another podcast and I’ve been binging on it. I can’t believe I never heard of it before. It’s called Business wars. I don’t know if you’ll have ever heard of it. But it’s really cool. Because what they do is they go through, literally pull it up just a variety of different companies that have really fought it fought each other. They go through the Netflix versus blockbuster versus HBO few they go go through Nike versus Adidas and the one I listen to now is Marvel vs. DC. And there are a lot of great nuggets that you get out of these. When it comes to changes in technology, running your firm the right way listening to employees, a variety of things. And there’s a lot of great information. It’s not like they say oh, you know, Do this, do this, do this. But you’re learning through the historical lessons of these companies. And so I think they’re really, really good. I’ve just been binging on that like that 25 to 40 minutes each. And so they’re not that long. So that’s a really good one. But Shawn, thank you so much for coming on. I know that, Jim and I would want to have you on for quite a while. So I’m glad you came on.
