Today Jim and Tyson joined Michelle Spirn on the podcast! Michelle concentrates her practice in all facets of family law litigation, including but not limited to dissolution of marriage, legal separation, maintenance, child support, child custody, modification matters, enforcement actions, paternity actions, appeals, and pre and post-nuptial agreements. She is proud to be a member of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. Michelle has been recognized as a Missouri “Super Lawyer” by the Missouri/Kansas Superlawyers publication. Best Lawyers of America named Michelle the Lawyer of the Year for 2021 in her practice area. Michelle also serves as a volunteer lawyer for the Office of the Chief Disciplinary Counsel on its Region X Disciplinary Committee for St. Louis County.
3:49 a family and a career
8:20 big law vs street law
10:12 reputation is everything
10:28 an attorney spouse
17:05 growing pains
19:07 consumed by email
Jim’s Hack: Dive in on a temporary basis into your processes periodically to find things that are irrelevant, slow or unproductive.
Tyson’s Tip: Get rid of voicemail altogether for your firm.
Watch the recording here.
If you’re looking for a VA or someone to help you with email management check out episode 163 of the podcast with Gina Horkey!
Listen in to Outsource Your Inbox with Jim and Tyson as they discuss email management with their personal VA’s in episode 276.
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Run your law firm the right way.
This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.
Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show.
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I’m Tyson Mutrux. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim: Tyson, we’ve been spending a lot of time together, you and I, working on the different modules for the new Maximum Law, Minimum Time, so.
Tyson: Yeah, lucky you.
Jim: Yeah, lucky indeed.
Tyson: I mean, lucky you.
Jim: Yeah. No, it’s going really well. I think people are really going to like it. I think we’ve talked more on there than we thought we were going to, but we actually had a lot to say.
Tyson: Yeah. Really, we talked about this the other day, like we’re really hitting our stride with it. We’ve had to re-record a couple of times but I think we’re really hitting our stride and I think people are going to like it.
Jim: Well, great. Well, I’m excited about our guest today. She just, I think recently, found out about the podcast and was enjoying it. And we were chatting offline. So, I invited her on the show. Her name is Michelle Spirn. She’s a family lawyer here in St. Louis County with us.
Michelle, welcome to the show.
Michelle: Thanks for having me.
Tyson: So, Michelle, let’s start with your story. Tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are now.
Michelle: Sure. Well, I graduated from Wash U in 1996. And I spent the first– gosh, maybe six years of my career at a little firm called Zerker and Hawker that you might have heard of but that doesn’t exist anymore. While I was on maternity leave with my older child, Zerker merged into– really, it was subsumed by then Husch Knappenberger, now Husch Blackwell. So, I came back to work to the same job but a different job.
I was there for a year, full time. And then, another year part time which I re-defined to mean I work when I feel like it and you’ll just keep paying me. I knew that was only going to last so long. And, of course, it only lasted so long. They really wanted me back full time. And I, at the time, was pregnant with baby number two, and my husband was a partner at a big firm, and it wasn’t going to work. So, I actually went out on my own for the first time, back then, in 2003, really on my own, like meeting clients at Bread Co. on my own. No staff, just me, with a P.O. box, and my cell phone, and an SBC Global email address. And that was it.
And so, I did that for a while. I really liked that for four years. Then, I finally stepped up and got some office space. I did that for five years.
And then, in 2011, I joined the law firm where I left most recently. And I was a partner there from– I came over there in 2011. I was a partner from ‘12 until the end of– gosh, I guess, ‘17 which was when I left to have my firm now.
And now I have a firm where I’m on my own, but I have an associate. I have a paralegal. I have an assistant and an office. I have infrastructure. And a real email.
Jim: So, this is great. I think this is the first person we’ve had on the show who’ve started their own firm twice. I guess, Tyson and I have sort of done it because we took on partners for a New York minute, but we didn’t really change much. And we certainly didn’t have the big gap that you did between the two times that you started. What did you learn, starting your firm the first time, that impacted how you started your firm the second time?
Michelle: I think the biggest thing is how much help you really need or, at least, how much help I need. I don’t think anybody gets to be successful all on their own. I mean, I think you’ve got to have somebody answering your phone. That’s like the biggest thing because, if you spend all your time answering the phone, you’re not really actually getting any work done. The sheer amount of time I was doing administratively billing and such– I mean, you’ve got to have somebody else do that, I think.
Tyson: Michelle, it’s not that we don’t really– I don’t think talking about enough is having kids and how that really affects your career. Will you talk a little bit about that because I know you worked part time for a little bit, whenever you’re raising your kids? Will you talk about that aspect of things?
Michelle: Sure. Oh, gosh. Well, the first time I was on my own, I had a baby. I mean, a toddler and a baby, a baby-baby. So, we are in a position like we don’t have any family in town. So, we don’t have any like built-in backup. And, again, my husband was and still is a partner at a big firm. And the expectations, I think, especially at that time, of men are just a little bit different. So, I really did a whole lot of juggling between and sort of fitting in practicing law between carpool, pre-school, kid activities. I swapped a lot of times with friends. You know, I’ll watch your kids, if you can watch my kids for two hours. I became very effective at getting work done in compressed periods of time. I had more phone calls with clients. And I mean, like, you know, in the parking lot of the preschool, like waiting for pickup. I never told them. Obviously, I was there, but I was. It’s hard with little kids, little-little kids.
And then, you know, they get bigger and they need you but in different ways. I don’t think that there’s any way to like, you know, have it all. People say that, you know, you can do work-life balance and trying to make everything work. There are just so many times–
And now, my oldest is a 20-year-old college sophomore, and my youngest is about to turn 18 this week which is just unbelievable to me, and as a high school senior. And, you know, they still need you. Like, my older had an emergency a couple of weeks ago – medical emergency. He’s fine. He’s totally fine. But, you know, it’s like you sort of run out of work.
And I still think that there are always times where you’re working and you feel like you should be doing something with your kids or you’re doing something with your kids, but you’re just consumed about a case. I just think it’s never easy. And it’s certainly helpful to have family in town and have backup childcare. And just I think to know that it’s just not going to be perfect. My kids turned out okay. We think.
Jim: I think my wife would say that there’s still different expectations for dads than moms but I’m working on it.
Talk to us about the big differences that you noticed between working at a big law firm and being out on your own a second time.
Michelle: Wow. Well, so I’ve been– you know, I’ve been at a big firm, I’ve been at two smaller firms of different sizes, and I’ve been on my own. And I’ve been on my own – really, on my own. So, I’ve done it all different ways.
I mean, at a big firm, there is an enormous amount of structure. And there are a lot of expectations, especially in terms of the billable hour. It’s just sometimes a lot.
Now, of course, for that, a lot of things are taken care of for you. Your phone will be answered. Your copies will be made. Your bills are sent out. None of that is a concern.
But sometimes the billable hour expectation, I thought it was crushing, crushing, especially for a young attorney, a young– at least, at the time, again, a young female attorney with kids. I do think that still the expectations are different for men and women. It’s a lot better now. It’s a lot more common for women to work part-time attorneys than it was. When I was working part time, no one was working part time. Like, I didn’t know anyone else who was working part time. It was like unheard of. People sort of rolled their eyes, “What?”
And I think if you’re going to be at a law firm, I think, mediums. I really enjoyed both times, Zerker and Hawker was a wonderful small law firm. And Growe Eisen Karlen, where I was at most recently, was and is a great firm. You’ve really got to enjoy the people. You’ve really got to like the people in charge. And you’ll have to like the decisions that are getting made.
For me, because I’m– I don’t know, annal and I like to have things done a certain way. And I like having a voice. That’s really, ultimately, why I left to go on my own. At a big firm, you’re not going to have that. I mean, you’re just not, unless you really get into the upper, upper, upper echelon of management which so few people do.
Tyson: Michelle, I want to shift gears a little bit because I do feel like there’s this– always this big, big– I don’t know, fight or this friction between big law and what my former partner used to call street law, which I think is a really clever name for it. You know, big law versus street law. And in the questionnaire, that you filled out for us, you said that, “There’s a massive importance of professionalism in the practice.” And I really get aggravated sometimes whenever I’m sitting at my desk and I see an alert come through that someone has unilaterally notice of a deposition without even giving me a damn phone call–
Michelle: The worst.
Tyson: –and it drives me nuts. It drives me freaking nuts. And so– and I do– it’s weird. Like some firms, it’s great dealing. With some, it’s just a pain in the ass.
So, will you talk about the importance of professionalism, in your opinion?
Michelle: Yeah. There really is nothing more important than my opinion. There is the idea– the people noticing of depositions without a phone call. You know, are you available? You know, I think surprising you in front of judges with issues that have never once been discussed, conduct in court and sometimes– especially– and I think it’s almost more prevalent now because settlement conferences, at least, for us are Zoom, right? They’re virtual.
So, there’s some conduct on Zoom or even on the phone that I think would not be tolerated in person, in front of judges. And it’s just I don’t think anyone can get anywhere without the trust of their peers in their community and in their law practice. And you’ve got to be able to be trusted. If you are doing things like setting depositions without notice. That like the worst, right? That’s like number one on the list of things not to do. Not returning phone calls. Basic rudeness. I mean, frankly. It’s just not going to get you anywhere.
And if you’re not trusted by your peers and you also won’t, ultimately, be trusted by the judges. And then, you’re not going to be successful. Reputation really is everything. It’s everything. I think, in my practice, and in almost all practices.
Jim: I have to ask this question, having raised four kids with an attorney partner. Talk to us about the life at home with an attorney who happens to be your spouse.
Michelle: I knew you were going to ask that.
It’s worked for us. I know a ton of lawyers who say that they could never be married to another lawyer. I don’t know that I could not be married to another lawyer. He has a completely different practice area, although we’re both like sort of technically litigators. A totally different practice area and practices for a big firm. And so, our practices are not, on a day-to-day basis, very similar. However, our arguments are always– there’s a lot of cross examination. Both of us have said, “Okay. Stop cross examining me.”
I think, with our kids, we have had– when there are disputes, all the time, when they were little, we used to have trials. Like trials where you sit and give your case. And now you sit and give your case. And the judges will deliberate. And then maybe we’ll give you some time for a rebuttal. And then we’re going to rule. And the kids just love– it just seems fair. And I think it is fair. The kids loved it. Loved it.
You know, it’s worked for us. My husband was in my law school class which is a little bit, I think, unusual. So, we know a lot of the same people and we come from– you know, we know a lot of the same judges. We know a lot of the same attorneys even though we’re in different practice areas. We’re the same age. So, it’s worked for us.
Tyson: My wife is not a lawyer. And she says to me, when we’re arguing, “stop lawyering me” is what she says to me. So, she gets frustrated by it. I like the idea of a trial. I’m going to have to try that. That’s good.
Michelle: I’ll say one thing. You know, in our non-legal lives, like in our real lives, whenever it’s time to sign a contract, you know, even if it’s just like for like the landscaper, right, or we– oh, my God, we did a big rehab of our house, almost 10 years ago, and my husband, God bless him, read all the– I mean, he didn’t do the contracts, but he read all of the contracts, red lined all of the contracts. I was kind of like you can do that. That’s fine. I just don’t want to do that. But he happens to be a construction lawyer. So, I mean, he knew a lot more. So, there’s probably a lot more careful reading of contracts than you would ordinarily find. And a lot more careful questioning of like warranties, things like that. So, what can you say?
And I will say there’s also a lot, sometimes, of unwarranted like trepidation. One of my kids had trouble with a teacher, right? It’s like a million years ago, like fifth or sixth grade. And I’m not normally the mom who’s like calling, you know, to whine or complain but it was pretty bad. So, I started with the teacher very gently. And then, I wasn’t getting any results. And I kind of took it up, took it up, took it up. I did have a meeting with the principal and it ended up with my kid was removed from that class and put into a different class. And that was after they started. The initial was sort of like, “we don’t do that.”
Well, you know, it’s not so much that they made an exception for me as the circumstances merit. It really did merit it. Anyway, it all worked out. And then, the following year, my kid was in a different class and we went for– like back-to-school night or whatever you want to call it, curriculum night, and his new teacher was like, “Oh, so you’re– sort of, so you guys are the parents?” We were like, “Uh-oh.” And she said, “Oh, you know, I just heard that you guys were, you know, advocates and I know you’re both lawyers, so I was a little nervous about what you’d be like.” And I think they were hopefully pleasantly surprised that we’re both actually really nice people, you know, not whiners or harassers of others. You know, it’s funny what people think when they picture lawyers. I think they sometimes picture people who are unnecessarily aggressive at times.
Tyson: Right. The lawyers, the lawyers.
Tyson: So, let’s talk about– it sounds like you’ve built a pretty large referral base. So, how were you able to build that up, especially bouncing back and forth between, you know, big law and having your own firm?
Michelle: So, the best referral base for me has always been and continues to be other lawyers. So, I mean, just because domestic is such a niche practice. So, you either know, people who do it or you don’t know people who do it. And I feel like people either, really, either they do it all the time or they don’t want to have anything to do with domestic.
So, that has been– I mean, honestly, just starting with my law school classmates who still refer, that was really the basis. And then, I mean, for a while when I was sort of momming it more– I mean, my kids, parents, and really not so much those parents but their friends who– you know, someone’s always getting divorced is the unfortunate reality. I mean, it’s either your best friend or, you know, your sister, or your sister’s cousin, or someone at work. And everyone knows someone who’s like, “Can I talk to you for a second?” And that is always sort of like at parties. Of course, in the before times when we had parties. A lot of sort of pulling me aside, “Can I talk to you for a second?” I always knew. I always knew. And there’s a lot of, you know, “Well, my friend’s going through this problem.” You know, 90% of the time it’s them.
So, I’ve worked hard to maintain my referrals. I mean, again, lawyers. And really, the best referrals are former clients. And I think that’s the biggest compliment. And I’ve been practicing long enough at this point– I’m old enough at this point that I’m on people’s sometimes second divorce or the prenuptial agreement for their second marriage. So, it’s always nice. It’s nice to see them come back or to send people.
Jim: Running your own practice can be scary. Whether you’re worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you’re losing control over your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.
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Jim: All right. So, Michelle, I was excited that you found the Maximum Lawyer Podcast and the group because it’s surprising. Tyson and I don’t have that many people that listen to us in St. Louis which is sort of ironic. I was wondering what resonated with you and what kind of things are you sort of struggling with or could we help with these days?
Michelle: Well, so I found you guys because of some friends of mine, who are also big fans, Stephanie Jones and Sophie Rasa. I hope you guys know them. They are my colleagues. They do what I do.
And what really resonates for me, I mean, first of all, the tips/hack of the week, always good stuff. I actually have a running list of stuff I still need to do. I am reading the 12-week year, although I have not had enough time to sit and like get through it. But I’m trying to take that idea about blocking time, you know, and scheduling that way.
I would say I’m having some growing pains at this point. I’m at the point where I probably need to hire another attorney. So, it’s– first of all, it’s hard to find someone. And we’re a small group. So, it’s got to be someone whose personality meshes. And I’m very cognizant, like you don’t want to steal someone from another law firm and create bad feelings. That person, really, I think, has to reach out to you first.
I’m at the point where I’m sort of thinking that I might just go to the law schools and look for like a brand spanking new green attorney and just train them from the ground up. You think that’s good? Yeah.
Jim: I’m a big believer in that. And having just hired someone, apparently, who had 10 years of experience, who was an absolute moron, I think that there’s no substitute for training people up the way you want ‘em to.
Michelle: Yeah, my assistant, Amber, who, it’s unbelievable, has never worked at a law firm before which I can’t believe, but she was in the customer service business. I have gotten so many compliments. I mean, the way she answers the phone. She always goes above and beyond. She’s excellent. I mean, she’s outstanding. I kind of trained her what I want. I mean, she does it. So, she’s great.
And I mean, honestly, I don’t know if you guys have any idea of the ongoing– the email problem. I mean, right? I feel I’m being consumed by emails and my time just gets eaten up, eaten up, eaten up. Every day, it’s like an avalanche.
Jim: So, for me, we had a lady on the show who runs a VA service. And I hired a VA. I pay her $1,000 a month and she runs my email. And she puts everything into Filevine for us. She puts our leads into the lead software. I never see my email. I never look at email. I do everything out of Filevine or inside Pipedrive which is our lead management software. So, I only respond to the emails that I need to and those are given to me as tasks by my paralegal. So, I don’t see email. She’s on the east coast. I wake up every morning and my email inbox is empty.
Michelle: Is this someone virtual?
Michelle: Okay, that’s a good idea. That’s a good idea.
Do your clients not– I mean, you’re in a different field than I am. And it’s a little different in immigration. But I mean, do your– I don’t know. Maybe, I think that the needs are different.
Jim: They don’t know.
Jim: I mean, we have– I’m sure that when you have people going through divorce, they’re very emotional and they want to talk to you right away. I get all that. But immigrants are the same way, “My husband’s getting deported” or “Where’s my damn green card?” So, we have a lot of that same emotion. It’s just a different emotion, but they don’t really even know, Michelle. They don’t know that I’m not checking my email. They don’t hear from Lauren. They hear from my paralegal or they hear from me, if I need to.
But I’ll just say this, every time I’ve made it harder to get a hold of me, I’ve made more money. So, I highly encourage it. And, if nothing else, even if you don’t make more money, it’s going to free up your brain in a way that’s going to make you really happy.
Michelle: What service do you use?
Jim: Yeah. So, I’ll send you an email. Gina Horkey was the lady of the company. She runs the company. If you look up her episode, Gina Horkey, H-O-R-K-E-Y. We’ll put it in the show notes. And I can send you the intro. And I can even ask Lauren, if she’s taking on new clients, because she’s fantastic. She does all my travel stuff, too. And she does other stuff for me. She’s my virtual assistant.
Michelle: I think that’s something I’m going to have to look into. It is very easy to, as you know, sit down in front of your computer and like four hours have gone by. And I’ve sent some emails, but I haven’t really accomplished anything that I need to accomplish. So, the days that I feel have been most productive are days when I really do sort of follow the 12-week year model, block my time, be really diligent about I’m not responding to emails or phone calls right now. You know, I’m going to just do this for two hours or three hours. And then, check email. Then, I’m just going to do this for two hours or three hours.
I mean, you’re right. It’s a lot of– there’s a lot of emotional– clients are needy. They want to talk to you right away. They think everything’s an emergency. There are very few actual emergencies. There is an article in this week’s New Yorker called email is making us miserable. And it is, I think, right on point. I read that and I was like, “Yep, email is making us miserable.” It’s making me miserable.
So, the growing pains, the kind of like, I’m actually getting — there’s going to be a lot of change this year. I mean, I’m getting more office space. I’m moving upstairs in my building which may seem counterintuitive in the age of corona, but I firmly believe– and domestic is such a one, I think, like a one-on-one business. People are always going to want to meet. There will still be meetings when we’re finished with corona and we’re all vaccinated. And I need a place to put another person. So, I’m moving upstairs. I need to hire somebody else. There’s just a lot. You know, there’s just a lot of sort of ongoing I feel like changes kind of moving with that and figuring out on a daily basis how to manage it all. It’s a lot.
Tyson: So, Michelle, you’ve got to remember, you can only do one thing at a time. And what happens is that’s the mindset we all kind of get into. Sometimes, we’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got so many things going on and then nothing gets done.” So, the magic of the 12-week year is it’s going to allow you to focus on one or two things and then knock those things out. That way, you’re not so overwhelmed. So, as you’re going forward and going through the 12-week, year, remember that, remind yourself of that, so that you can stay on task because, otherwise, you’ll only get distracted with all the other things you’ve got to do. Focus on the one thing. Then, you’ll be able to move forward.
We do have to wrap things up, unfortunately, because I think this is a conversation I’d like to keep going but we have to wrap things up.
Last thing I’ll say about the email inbox is just treat it like it’s your phone system. Like you don’t answer your own phones, so don’t answer your own emails. Another listener’s one that suggested that. And that, whenever they said that was like flipping a switch in my brain like, “Oh, that’s right.” So, treat it like it’s your phone system not like it’s your email system.
Michelle: It’s a good way to think about it.
Jim: That was actually me who said that not another–
Tyson: Was that you, Jim? Okay. Well, it’s Jim. It’s one of our listeners, Jim Hacking. He’s a really good listener. Great listener.
Tyson: Yeah, absolutely.
All right. We do want to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group, get involved there. There’s a lot of great activity, a lot of great information.
Michelle, there’s a video in there that we did with our VAs that handle our email inbox, so you might want to look for that there as well. A lot, a lot of great information in that on how to organize your inboxes.
Also, if you’re interested in the Guild, go join us at maxlawguild.com. And if you don’t mind, just taking a couple of seconds, as you’re listening the rest of this episode, to give us a five-star review, we would greatly appreciate it.
Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
Jim: All right. So, first of all, good news, Michelle. I just talked with Lauren and she is taking on new clients. So, I would recommend not only Gina Horkey but I’d recommend Lauren. I’ll connect you guys after this.
Michelle: Thank you.
Jim: For my hack of the week, this is something I’ve been talking about in The Guild for the last two weeks. And so, we had some turnover. A long-time paralegal left and we also had to fire that dope that I mentioned earlier in the show that had the 10 years of immigration experience.
And so, I took that as an opportunity to dive in on a temporary basis into our processes. And the further you get away from your processes and the more you have other people doing your processes, the less familiarity you might have how people are doing the job on the ground. And so, I spend about a week doing everything that our paralegals do. I use their systems. I followed their processes. And I found all kinds of things that were either dumb, or slow, or inefficient, or duplicative, or nonsensical. So, I have the world’s greatest to-do list of things to work on on my business, like actually fixing things.
Like I was sort of running out of things that I thought I was running out of things to work on. Of course, we’re never done with things to work on. But there’s no substitute to serving as that frontline person. I was talking to the clients. I was gathering their documents. I was organizing ‘em. I was printing ‘em. I was getting forms ready to go out. I actually had fun. I had fun doing it. I mean, it’s not something I want to do long term, but I think that we’ve identified a list of like 15 things that we need to fix that I never would’ve known if I hadn’t stepped in there. So, I’m probably going to just put this on my calendar and do it once a year just to test out things and see how it’s going. And I can’t recommend that enough.
Michelle: Good idea.
Tyson: I love that, Jimmy. That’s really good.
All right, Michelle. You know the routine by now. We always ask our guest to give a tip or a hack the week. Do you have one for us?
Michelle: I do. So, I think because life is all about the little things. I still take a lot of notes, like actual handwritten notes on a legal pad with pens. I love pens. It’s just so satisfying. It’s also like a really cheap thing to buy online, if you’re going to be like up late at night and you’re looking for something to buy.
So, I have a couple pens. I will say my everyday pen is, I wrote it down so I wouldn’t forget it, a Pilot V7 retractable roller ball. Best pen. It’s so fun to click. Writes so smoothly. It does run out. Or maybe I just write a lot, but they run out. So, you’ve got to have a big supply.
And then for, you know, extra fun times, fountain pens are awesome. And I’m still definitely a fountain pen beginner. The Goulet Pen Company has an awesome website and they make pens, too. So, it’s just a lot of fun. Always, it just brings me joy.
Tyson: I like this. And what was the name of the of the retractable pen?
Michelle: It’s the Pilot V7 retractable roller ball. Nothing like it.
Tyson: This might be the first time we’ve had someone give a pen as their tip. That’s awesome. Very cool.
Michelle: It’s the little things. I’m telling you.
Tyson: It is. It really is.
My thing, I think, is kind of a little thing, but it’s also a really big thing when it comes to time savers and just issue savers. And we’ve not had voicemail in our firm for three years and it’s fantastic. So, it is impossible for you to leave a voicemail at our firm because that’s where messages go to die. Everyone’s call is always answered in some way. So, we have an answering service and phones are all over. Everything’s handled a certain way. And so, we have gotten rid of voicemail. There are no voicemail setup in our phone system. And so, I highly recommend it because I think we all know and I bet there’s a lot of blinking lights, for people who have desk phones still, they’re looking at right now that they’ve not checked their voicemails in months probably and clients get so ticked off about it. And since we got rid of voicemail, it has been amazing. So, I really, really recommend that you get rid of it.
Michelle, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun. I really, honestly, I wish we had more time because I think we’re going into some fun issues but, unfortunately, we’re out of time. But thank you so much for joining us.
Michelle: Thanks so much for having me, you guys.
Jim: That was great. Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle: Thank you.
Jim: See ya.
Tyson: See you, everybody.
Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
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