Today we’re excited to share a presentation by Jordan Ostroff from MaxLawCon 2021! Tune in to learn about the 7 questions you need to ask yourself before making any marketing decisions in your law firm.
Jordan Ostroff is the Lawyer with a Life. He works 3 days a week, 20-25 hours per week total, across his law firm and marketing company. Jordan’s firm handles PI cases in and around Orlando, and LegalEase Marketing is a fractional CMO for law firms to help them create the same plan Jordan went through to get out of the 70-80 hours a week of work and into a much better life.
Since MaxLawCon he and his family have been driving across the country and will continue that for almost a full year because why not? We only get one go through this life, might as well spend it having fun with those you love.
2:16 where are they now
8:51 when in doubt, ask
12:59 there’s a flip side to this
15:55 stay consistent
19:37 a lot of repeat business
22:02 gut mom reaction
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Transcript: 7 Essential Questions of Marketing with Jordan Ostroff
In today’s episode, we’re sharing a presentation from Max law con 2021. Keep listening to hear Jordan Ostroff as we share his talk seven essential questions of marketing. You can also head to the maximum lawyer YouTube channel to watch the full video. Have you grabbed your ticket to this year’s conference? If not, head to max law con 2020 two.com to get yours today. Now to the episode.
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson nutrix. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show. All right, everybody, we just got back from lunch. Everybody up, shaken off the lunch? Take one step to your left. Take one step to your right. Cool. Now if nothing else, I’ve moved all of you. Yes, I have wanted to tell that joke for about two years. And then that little thing called COVID happened. So here we are, at the end of this, you’re going to have the seven questions that you should be asking yourself before you make any marketing decision, the seven questions we will go over, you’re gonna learn the questions, learn how to apply them for your firm, and make more money in less time and hopefully be happy and have a life. So question one, who am I trying to market to aka who is my ideal client? For those who that are here this morning? We’ve already talked about this. So we’re gonna go pretty quickly through this one who tried to reach How do you speak to these people? If you want you can download our client avatar worksheet. It’s got like 50 questions on there. Everything’s available at legalese. marketing.com/education, legalese market.com/education. So you have the client avatar worksheet, basically, we covered this with our first speaker. So we’re going to cut through that question, but it is super important. It is the first question, if you don’t really know who your ideal client is, that should be your biggest takeaway from this presentation. If you take nothing, anything else that I say or anything that anybody else says, that should be the one that’s important to you. So now that we know who our ideal client is, now that we filled out the thing from earlier speaker now that we downloaded the thing, the second question is, where are they? We’re actually looking at this in three different examples. The first one being where are they now? Where is your ideal client right now currently? Are they at a location? Are they in a group? Are they online? Where are they now? The next one? How about when they need to find a lawyer? Is your ideal client going to ask their buddy for referral? Is your ideal client gonna go on a Google and search for something? If so, what? Or who? Will they ask? Are they going to go to their parents? Are they gonna go to their friend? Are they going to go to somebody else? Do they know? Are they going to go to the lawyer that they went to for the previous time that they needed to hire a lawyer for something different? So we have our ideal client? Now we’re talking about where are they? If it comes down to social media, very briefly, I have the six most common ones. So Facebook, a little bit older of a demographic, in theory, pretty much everybody’s on Facebook, personal page, you’re gonna get higher organic reach business page, you’re gonna get a lot lower of organic reach with the ability to advertise a little bit more information, Instagram, in theory, a little bit more younger, a little bit more creative. You’ve got the feed, you got stories, you got IG TV, and reels. My all time favorite social media posts ever in the history of time. Instagram, got up on social media and said, Hey, we are no longer a square picture sharing. We are all in on video. They posted it on Twitter. Yeah, anyway, so what’s coming from Instagram? I don’t know. Really. They want to be Tik Tok. That’s what Instagram wants to and they’re trying to figure it out. So LinkedIn, older, more business focused. LinkedIn got rid of stories as of I believe today. So no more stories on LinkedIn, but a lot more LinkedIn live, although that’s only one he can’t do on your phone. So consider that if you’re talking about live video. We’ll get to that in the next question. YouTube, the second most search platform on the internet, so number one, people go to Google to find answers. Number two, they go to YouTube to find answers. In short videos, YouTube released YouTube shorts, YouTube’s attempt to be Tik Tok. You have long form, you’ve got short form less no geotargeting for organic content on YouTube. So if you are specifically helping people in a certain area, YouTube may be a little bit harder for you to generate clients because it is more broad reach Tik Tok. Who hears on tick tock by show of hands. All right, cool. Who here thinks tick tock is still for 12 year olds dancing? All right, guess what? Tick tock the most watched platform for video. Even more than YouTube. YouTube lost that ranking for the first time since like 2008. So in the entire concept of us watching videos of cute cats and babies that are on the internet, it was YouTube. It is now tick tock in terms of views per user short video. It’s up to three minutes now. Very broad reach if you’re an immigration attorney If your trademark patent anything where you work with people across the country, if you’re not on tick tock, you’re probably missing out, probably go through the rest of the question, see if that makes sense for you. And then Twitter, more personal branding, more messages, shorter speech, etc. So we’ve got who they are, where they’re going to be, if it’s a platform, we’ve got some info on the platforms, what’s the best way to talk to your audience, ideally, nicely, but more than that, written audio video images, we went through some of the different ones, obviously, every platform is going to be a little bit different. If you want to sing and dance and be really cool about it, and you want to post on LinkedIn, you may not get the same success, because of what you’re doing versus what the platform is normally for. But sometimes try it. So who’s your ideal client? Where are they? Are they gonna need an attorney? What’s the best way to talk to them? The ideal thing for you is, if you imagine a Venn diagram, one circle is what my client likes. One circle is what you like, the intersection of those two circles. Ideally, the platform that you like, the method that you like, makes sense for them. That’s where you will find the most success. You can find success swimming upstream, that is totally fine. But if you enjoy what you’re doing, you will do it so much better, you will stay more consistent with it, you will be more effective with it. All right. So what content will they consume the most understand people, we’re all getting older at the same rate. I know, the people that are getting into most of the common target demographics were raised on short video, they have no attention span, they like tick tock videos, three minutes might be too long on a tick tock video, these are the people that over the next five or 10 years will be all of your target demographics, not necessarily you as the firm, but like in terms of the 18 to 48, whatever it is 36 year olds, those people have watched short form video. So we are coming less attention span, yes,
Is there likely to fulfill short videos to longer form or have become so short that we stick to
my two cents? There is literally the biggest fight? So the question was asked, Do we think that people will go back into more longer form video, here’s my take on it. The most important resource for us individually is time, the most important resource for us as business owners is attention. So how quickly can you get somebody’s attention? And how can you keep it to get them to do what you want, the shorter the punch here, the more likely they will go forward instead of them losing you, you know, if at the end of your video, it’s book a call, and it’s 45 seconds, you may get a lower click through rate or whatever it is. But if you have a three hour video, you’re gonna lose a lot more people who never get to the end to hear that call to action. But again, go back to question one with your ideal client. If your ideal client feels differently, that’s who you’re really catering to what content we like making the most what’s best for the platform. So the platforms will be a little bit different. You again, we’re looking for that Venn diagram, what’s going to work? What is our client going to do? What do we like? Where are those intersect? What problem am I really solving? John Strohmeyer up here is gonna get a shout out. I think John does a great job in his podcast talking about this, because nobody really cares that you’re a lawyer, they have a problem, they want the needle moved on it. And what is that problem really. So if we had a smaller group, we’d go this through this individually. But we have an amazingly large group at this awesome conference of smart lawyers. These are some examples. Nobody really wants to hire a lawyer, they want to problem to go away, ideally, in a good manner for them, they want to be able to afford the treatment that they’re going to need. They want to have a bunch of money in their pocket, they want to close on the house at the time that they need. They want to not be worried about going to prison, they want to get their life back to where it was. Whatever it is, the more you focus on that ideal client, the more you learn their actual problems. When in doubt, ask your ideal clients what they really wanted from you. If you’ve already got some of those ideal clients, ask them, go through these questions with them. Tell them you’ll give them some money back. Maybe they care about you to do it, whatever it is go through a lot of this with them, you will learn some amazing things don’t change just from one client if you don’t agree with it. But if you start getting five or 10 clients telling you the same thing, guess what? They’re right. Do they know that they need a lawyer? So if you are a criminal defense, if you are a personal injury, I’m pretty sure your clients know they need a lawyer because they probably didn’t care about you until the exact second that they needed you. Those of you that are trademark estate planning. Do they need you right now? Do they know that they need you? Family law is the toughest one for this one. Because family law, everything’s an emergency even if it’s not, but you have clients if they’re thinking about divorce, they may not know what the options are, if they’ve been served. They need you now the clock is ticking. So we look at it from awareness, consideration and intent being the three stages of marketing awareness. The biggest ones billboards, you are aware that this firm exists, they aren’t a billboard consideration is where you can actually consider whether or not you’re the right firm. Consider Whether or not you are the right fit. So if you’re being proactive, if you are working with people who are proactive trademark estate planning, etc, consideration is going to be huge for you. Because you’re convincing clients, they need you. You’re convincing them, you’re a great fit. And then intense basically like Pay Per Click, somebody went to Google and said, I need a lawyer for X problem. Now I have the intent to hire, boom, I’m not telling you which of these are better. You need to learn which of these are better, or if it’s all of them, how you get people from one step to the next, that makes the most sense. And that goes back to guess what your ideal client, I’m going to hammer that point home so hard, but it is so true. And I hope every other speaker talks about it because that is the biggest thing. What do I want them to do after seeing this? I am not telling you to end every single one of your videos with smash that subscribe button like now whatever, right? We’re laughing why? Because people effing get it at this point, like you are making the video to get clients no matter what it is. There are some videos where you need that call to action, book a call, subscribe, sign up for a newsletter, whatever. What do I want them to do after this there should be a purpose behind every post. Maybe what I want them to do is like me, maybe what I want them to do is know me, maybe what I want them to do is remember my name something along those lines. It doesn’t have to be something incredibly specific. But you need to think about at the end of this marketing. It would be successful if x happened at the end of this post at the end of this video at the end of this event. Yes, it’s one thing. Probably Probably there are certain circumstances where it may be liking this and booking the call or something along those lines. But make sure you’re not diluting your message.
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But there’s the flip side to this. Our second probably most important question, what do I need to do after they see this? Sorry, everybody. If you thought you were going to make one post and your firm was gonna run differently or put up one billboard or run one campaign? I hate to burst your bubble. Actually, no, I don’t I love to burst your bubble. Because I don’t want to have unrealistic expectations. So what do you need to do? This is my concept of the ideal sales process over here you have the ad, or post whatever it is, it drives people to your website or landing page or something else where they can learn more about you. You’ve got a contact form that they can fill out, join the newsletter book, the call, whatever it is, you’ve got follow up, hopefully automated, we’ll get into that you do some sort of consultation strategy session meeting, I don’t know whatever it is, there’s a point where everybody talks, there’s a contract and an invoice sent. There’s more follow up and hopefully you get hired. So we’re going to dive into some of that in a little bit more detail. So something like an email drip, the email drip wallet is about you. It is not about you. It is about the client. What do they need to know? Why do they need to hire an attorney? Why does it need to be you? How can you give them social proof social proof is sharing your great reviews with them so they can see themselves in your prior clients. And please, please, please, for those of you that have multiple practice areas, if I’m interested in talking to you about a probate issue, and I get a review that talks how great you were on their personal injury case, not the follow up I’m looking for. So you want to make sure that you have that in the right chain. So you are sending the right follow up the right social proof to the right clients. It may be totally different from one practice area to the next. You know, for criminal defense and estate planning. You may have completely different follow ups, but you still got to have some sort of follow up. That’s about your client. That’s about your ideal client what they need to know why hire you lifecycle of the case. This has been probably the coolest one that we put together. Literally I copied the Domino’s Pizza tracker, put it together for the lifecycle of PII case was awesome. We did the same thing for our CRM builds people Love it. Why? Because nobody has a freaking clue what’s going to happen. They don’t know what the next steps are. So you line everything up in that thing. And just as simple as it is getting a pizza delivered your house, just as simple as it is getting a million dollar we’ll put together a trust or estate plan or whatever. But this way they know all the steps. retarget them if you’re running ads retarget them. Best practice pro tip, if you’re running retargeting ads, if people already booked that console form, have the pixel on your page, or tell your digital marketing people, you’re gonna retarget totally differently. Why because they booked a console. So now on retarget them about how amazing you are, as opposed to reminding them they need to book that concert with you, or strategy session, or whatever it is. So utilize the tools in your tool belt, to follow up on these potential leads to retarget them in the right manner. Stay consistent, stay consistent. Please don’t be a barracuda, lose shiny object syndrome, do less, but do it better. Be consistent with it. If you only have one hour to spend on social media, don’t be on six different platforms. It’s not going to work for you. You’re not going to have that one off. I have a buddy who posted literally his first post on Tik Tok and got like 1.5 million views. It turned into zero clients. Why? Because he didn’t get 1.5 million views on a second tick tock. And then there wasn’t a third tick tock. So stay consistent, which is why we go back to what do you like? What do you want to do? What are you going to enjoy? If you don’t like doing videos? Probably not the best marketing tool for you. All right. What if it still doesn’t work? I’ve got a video you can watch legalese marketing.com/education. I’ve got these slides, I’ve got the ideal client avatar worksheet. I’ve got another video where we go through the seven most common reasons your marketing doesn’t work. If you’ve been through these questions, you don’t have to give me an email. It is totally available there for free. Go ahead and watch it. Enjoy it. I hope you all learn. And for whatever time I have left, what other questions do you have? So it depends the ultimate lawyer answer it totally can. And when you have this ideal client in mind, and you’ve got this overarching strategy, you want to look for times to repurpose the content. So if you’ve got that video, it may go on reels this week, it may go on YouTube shorts, the next week, it may go on Tik Tok the week after, I am a huge fan of utilizing everything you can multiple times, for the most part, your stuffs going to be seen by eight to 10% of your audience on a good post. So guess what, if you post it five times, the odds of somebody seeing it multiple times are low. And if they care, they’re probably not your ideal client. Like if somebody’s gonna be like, Hey, man, you posted the same thing six months ago, first of all, bravo to you, because I don’t remember what I posted last week. But secondly, like, what did you get from that? You know, did you realize it? Because you liked it, then you like it now? Are you complaining? And you know, you’ll go from that way, Bill.
Great job. That was a great sponsor said we are passionate about something. There’s such a course
you saying that should do it at all. Any other ideas? Suggest? A wall?
So I am going to someone answer your question. As individuals, you want to double down on what you’re good at. If you are in this conference, because you want to better firm and you are great as a lawyer, then maybe you need to double down on that and hire somebody for something else. Because as a company, you don’t want to double down on your weaknesses, you want to hire people of that as your strengths. So to Bill’s point on the video, one, that one I’d be a little hesitant on. Ultimately, the answer would be you hire somebody to work for you who’s great making those videos and they become your spokesperson, I get that there’s a potential concern there. Because if they leave, they’ve got the brand, they’ve got the awareness. But if you’re not happy with video, be like audio, then have a podcast. If you’re not happy with a video, we have a blog post write blog posts, and then maybe you have somebody in the office, read them or do their takeaways from it bless you. Yes.
Instead of your website,
it depends upon your ideal client, if your ideal client is committed to Facebook, great. If your ideal client isn’t on Facebook, you’re giving them a totally different thing to do. That’s making them jump through another hoop. You know, there are definitely firms that have their website as your digital business card. There are definitely firms who have your website as bless you as your biggest cash cow, thank God nobody caught that would have been the worst thing right now. Right? So it really depends upon what’s the purpose of a website? What’s the purpose of the group? What are you trying to get in there. If you are dealing with a lot of repeat business, b2b, you’re doing business services, and you can help these people through 20 different things. It’s probably great to have them in a Facebook group, because they know what they need from you until you tell them the next thing that they need from you. If you’re a personal injury attorney and people for the most part, don’t want to get into multiple accidents. I know we all have those clients who do Facebook group they may not care about it may not be something that’s of interest to them. So really go back to that ideal client and now Trying to help you through the difference. But I like Facebook groups a lot. I hate LinkedIn groups, although I love LinkedIn. So Facebook actually pushes their groups other platforms don’t something to consider. That’s a great question.
What should be the frequency for short videos? You coach?
The easiest answer is at least three times a week. They’re serious answer is try it for 30 days, see what your numbers are. Tweak it slightly for the next 30. See how the numbers change, tweak it slightly for the next 30 See how it changes. You can always go back and you’ll see what goes on. Yes, wife, and you
do a sample through every single question for somebody?
No, like an estate planning?
Short, so I will do a personal injury firm who is dealing with soccer moms in a minivan driving their kid to sports who get into an accident, right? So there’s my ideal client. That’s who I’m trying to reach soccer mom minivan PTA meetings, soccer, taking the kids to sports, etc. Right? So where are they now? I don’t know. It’s 130. During the week, probably they’re going to pick up their kid from school. Probably they’re about to sit in that pickup line for 30 or 40 minutes. If I’m running anything that’s a timely targeted ad or radio ad. Maybe I want to figure out what time in school? Is that time to be on the radio for them to see it while they’re sitting there? Where are they going to be when they need a lawyer? I don’t know. Maybe they have a book club, where they’re talking to other people about it. Maybe they had to hire an attorney for something else. Maybe they’ve gotten maybe they’re a teacher. They’ve got a union attorney, maybe I need to connect with those people. What platforms are they on? They’re probably on Facebook. They’re probably on Instagram. Maybe they’re on Tik Tok. Maybe it’s mostly to watch their kids. Maybe they’re little concerned about what goes on over there. They’re probably not on LinkedIn. They’re probably not on Twitter. YouTube, I don’t know. Maybe they got a favorite show. And they’re on Hulu watching, I don’t know, some trashy reality show. There we go. How do I want to talk to them, they probably like video, they probably want to have that gut mom reaction to seeing the face of me or Heather or somebody else. Along those lines. They may not want to read so much, especially if they’re going to pick up the kids. Maybe they want to listen to a podcast. Maybe we try out the best car seats or other issues that are coming up for them. What problem am I really solving, they’re probably really concerned about their kids moreso than themselves. They’re probably really concerned about their kids not making it into some major college, because they missed a game because mom’s car was totaled because mom was injured. That’s probably their concern, something along those lines. So I want to cater to that. Do they notice the lawyer? No, until the accident? And then yes, immediately in that second, they finally care about me. They didn’t necessarily care about me before. In that moment. Now they do they know they have the issue. What I want them to do after seeing this is going to depend upon the ad for the most part, I want them to call me probably, or I want them to reach out on our website, what do I need to do, I probably need to tell them why I’m the best fit, why I truly care about them. Why we take fewer cases, to put more effort in each one that we make sure we get you to the right treatment facility. So you don’t have to worry about the doctor side of it, that we have, you know the facility that will pick you up with Uber, so you don’t have to worry about spending that money because you’re already going to have to get another vehicle that got totaled. We’re going to connect you with our car broker who’s going to get you that van that you need. You need the eight person van, because you’ve got the kids and they’re in a sport and it looks like the back of most vehicle going from baseball full of stuff. And they need that help. It’s those little extra things that we can put together. Why? Because I answered that ideal client question more than anyone who got in the car accident. Great question. Yes.
Would you have multiple ideal clients to practice?
You totally can she asking you multiple ideal clients for different practice areas or same practice area? Here’s the thing, how much effort do you have your effort your staffs effort, your money your time? I guarantee you Morgan and Morgan has probably 15 Different ideal clients with completely different marketing plans, because they’re spending millions of dollars for me, maybe I’ve got to, so figure out what juice is worth the squeeze. Thank you all so much.
Thanks for listening to the maximum lawyer podcast. To stay in contact with your host and to access more content. Go to maximum lawyer.com. Have a great week and catch you next time.