“Focus on Your Actions, Not Your Results” w/ Gary Miles 306


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In today’s episode Jim and Tyson joined Gary Miles! 

As the managing member of the Maryland law firm Huesman Jones and Miles, Gary is an experienced trial attorney with a concentration in family law and personal injury. An active member of the state bar's Lawyer Assistance Committed, Gary is passionate about helping lawyers be their best selves. His mission is to help lawyers and other entrepreneurs achieve personal, physical, time and financial freedom, and impact the lives of others. 

4:15 zoning in on family law
6:45 the mindset shift
11:10 taking on stressors from emotional cases
13:00 focus on your actions not your results
15:50 the ego
18:32 how to help
20:46 we all have the same 24 hours each day

Jim’s Hack: Book - 11 Rings by Phil Jackson about Phil’s leadership style and how to deal with different personalities. 

Gary’s Tip: Focus on how you can best be of service - read the book The Go Giver!

Tyson’s Tip: Bill.com for writing checks and making transfers. 

Watch the recording here.

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Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.


Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?

Jim: Good morning, Tyson. It's the first Tuesday in February. It's Groundhog Day. Punxsutawney Phil has seen his shadow, so I think we’ve got six more weeks of winter. How are you doing, my friend?

Tyson: Doing well, man. My trial is over, that I had my first and, hopefully, only Zoom trial is over. I'm happy about that. It went well. I had a really good cross to help put the nail in the coffin of the other party but, yeah, it was great, man. It's good. Good times.

Jim: Great. That's great.

I'm going to go ahead and introduce our guest today. We're really excited to have him. His name is Gary Miles. He's the managing member of a law firm in Maryland called Huesman, Jones & Miles. He's an experienced trial attorney who focuses on family law and personal injury. He's also very involved in the Maryland Lawyer Assistance Committee. He's passionate about helping lawyers be their best selves. And his mission is to help lawyers and other entrepreneurs achieve personal physical time and financial freedom and impact the lives of others.

Gary, welcome to the show.

Gary: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Tyson: So, Gary, I was looking through your profile and it's really interesting. It says that you've been practicing for 43 years which is just crazy to me. It’s pretty awesome. And you've been sober for 29 years which is really awesome as well. So, will you tell us about your journey? And I do want to get into the sobriety. That's interesting to me because one of the questions we ask is, “Is there anything else you'd like us to know?” and that was the thing you mentioned. So, I want to get into that as well but, before we get to that, tell us about your journey.

Gary: Sure. I went to Maryland Law School. Did well there. Got a federal clerkship. And instead of going to a big firm, as is maybe customary with someone with where I was situated, I returned to a small law firm, where I worked in law school. I really wanted to be a trial attorney. That wasn't the right place. So, I switched to a firm that was sort of a boutique insurance defense firm which is what I did for most of my early career. Primarily, insurance defense, primarily in the transportation industry, representing insurance companies for truck drivers and trucking companies.

I kind of segued out of that in 2010 for a number of reasons. I still do that. I don't do that as much. And, so to speak, reinvented myself as a family law attorney mostly because I wanted to have more of a passion to really help and serve people. I find, in that avenue, folks are really needing help and support. They're in a really difficult place in their life, often feeling alone, with a lot of emotion and anger. And I just feel I can paint a vision for them of what their life will look like and help them get there.

There's also a business reason for it. I'm in a very small firm. We've drifted from four attorneys to three, over the almost 40 years, I've been with this firm. And I’ve found, if I did too much insurance work, I had too many eggs in one or two baskets and that wasn't really a safe place to be. And that was really a primary reason I changed. I want to have a more diverse practice base with more diverse streams of income, so that no one client is-- I'm too bound to any one client, so that a change by that client could really affect my revenue stream.

So, we've developed sort of a boutique practice in family law. It's myself. My son, Buddy, is my partner. He's 40. He's been practicing for 15 years. And we have an associate. And all three of us do family law at different kind of cases or triaged to different attorneys. And I still do some defense work, but we're developing a practice in plaintiff’s personal injury as well.

Jim: Gary, we have a lot of members who sometimes like to pick up a new practice area or to transition as you did. Before we get into all the lawyer assistance stuff, I'd like to drill down a little bit on that. Tell us a little bit about your mindset as you were getting ramped up into family law, how you switched your marketing, how you switched your mindset and sort of what you did to sort of learn the practice area.

Gary: Sure. So, with what I was doing, in insurance defense work, I was well connected with the defense bar, with the various organizations that represent trucking companies and trucking insures. Didn't need a website. Marketing was done by phone, or in-person, or at conferences, or through connections.

But when I decided to open at family law, I had to change that because I didn't have the same connections. So, when I was trying to figure out what way to go, I met with someone who was in the business of designing websites. It actually worked for them, in one of the really bigger companies. And she said, “I can design a website. You'll start getting more calls than you presently get.” I said, “If I get a call from my website, you've already beaten the current level.” But we really have invested in a nice website. We now use a company called Premier Legal Marketing, out of Philadelphia. They're really good. They concentrate on law firms only, and only one firm in a certain practice area in a certain geography. So, some of the bigger companies might have 10 or 15 firms that do family law in the Baltimore area. And they're all doing the same thing for the same 15 firms and you can't really set yourself apart.

So, that was how we started getting business. It didn't really answer the other problem which was, “How do I learn how to do the work?” In Maryland-- I assume, everywhere, family is pretty simple what's in the best interest of the children? Do what's equitable with the couple.

The standards are, in many ways, fairly simple. The difficulty comes in the application, when a client calls you a middle of the night and, “My husband said this. What should I do?” So, I had a mentor, really, one of the deans of the Maryland Family Law Bar, who had become a friend, who was a little older than me. He's probably been practicing, Tyson, for well over 50 years. He started really young and it’s all he’s done is family law. He was kind enough that I could call him anytime I wanted, “How do you handle this? What do you do? What do I tell my client?” and he guided me through it. And now having handled hundreds upon hundreds of cases since, I never need to ask those subjective, helpful questions.

Tyson: Man, 50 years. That's awesome. That's really cool.

So, let me ask you a mindset question because there's got to be a different mindset from representing insurance companies and defending cases - going from that arena over to family law cases where like you're really in the trenches. So, will you talk about that mindset shift a little bit because it's not just like a business mindset shift, you're like talking about like-- sometimes I find myself-- this is sort of a selfish part of this. It’s like sometimes I find myself wondering like how defense attorneys do it. Like, how do they take the position that they do sometimes because they're literally taking money out of the hands of individuals? So, will you talk about how you had to shift your mindset from that standpoint?

Gary: Well, I think you probably do is some plaintiff’s work. And I do plaintiff’s work as well. You know, one of the nice things about doing insurance defense work is my client is very informed. They're very intelligent. They understand claims.

And the carriers I work with, really, are very fair and very responsible. I found they put very good money-- I had a very good track record in trying cases. Because we’ve put such good money on cases for settlement, we only try the cases that should be tried. And I do some mediation now. I work for one of our county courts facilitating cases and I would say not all personal lines carriers in Maryland are that way. They take a hard line. They put it up a low number and that's what you get.

But doing the insurance defense work, the biggest change was my client, in the insurance defense arena, extremely well informed, very knowledgeable, didn't need any education. No emotions attached to it. It was a business decision.

But when you go to handling a family law case, every client is different. Some are emotional. Some are passionate. Some are easygoing. None of them know where they're going. And they're all full of their own fear because their whole world is turned upside down in many, many ways. “Where will I live? What will happen to the kids?” And so, there's a lot of emotional handholding that's really important. And that's what really makes me feel fulfilled. To find a client-- I don't care if it's a husband or wife. I don't even care if it's necessarily the person who was choosing to leave the marriage. If they're fundamentally a good person, I love helping them get to where they need to be in the way that's the least destructive. My mission is to practice law in an assertive but very respectful way, knowing that both parties are going to be parents of the same kids for the rest of their life when they graduate from college, when they get married, when they have their first grandkid. And I want to do what I can to preserve that positive relationship as best as I can and under difficult circumstances.

I find, when I do plaintiff’s work, I have some of the same issues as family law in the sense that my clients have very differing expectations. Some, “I'll take anything.” Some are like, “Oh, no. I want a million dollars.” They're all over the place and they don't really know. And, you know, you're a smart attorney. I'm a smart attorney. We're trying to guess what six people in a jury who know nothing about medicine law or verdicts are going to do. So, there's a lot of coaching that goes on in the plaintiff’s arena as well.

Tyson: Jim, before you get to your question, I’ve just got to throw this in there.

So, this case that we just tried, Gary, it was a divorce case with a domestic violence component. So, I had the injury side of the case. I had a co-counsel during the divorce. And I can tell you the main difference between injury cases and family law cases is there is-- it’s the emotion.

Gary: Yes.

Tyson: When it comes to the injury cases, it's a lot about numbers, right? We do break down like how our client’s life's been affected but then we add a number to that. Like, we turn that into a number. With the divorce side of it, there is so much emotion in it, I couldn't do it on a daily basis like you do. It drove me nuts because, to me, it's about the numbers. To the client, you know, it's very emotional. So, it was very difficult for me at times to deal with the client. So, luckily, I had co-counsel, but it was mind numbing sometimes.

Gary: Well, I've learned to sort of practice active listening, and to listen to their feelings, and give voice to them, and know that they've been heard and understood, because sometimes they don't feel anyone's heard them. Often, their parents have an opinion about what they should do, or what they did right or wrong, what the ex-spouse is like, or their brother might, or their best friend. But they don't have anyone who really just listened to them and where they are. But I don't also make the feelings - I don't go home at night and think, “That's my problem.” It's not my problem but I'm there to help.

Jim: Well, that's a great segue for what I wanted to talk about next. And that is, you know, we have a lot of family lawyers in our group, in our Maximum Lawyer group. And some of them really, really like it and view it sort of as a calling and other ones sort of do it because it helps keep the lights on. But, for many of them, there is such emotion in family law. What advice do you have for our members who are sort of struggling with taking on all those stresses of all these hot family situations?

Gary: Well, I think they have to not take on the emotions as their own. I tell my client, “I don't want you to do the worrying. Let me do the worrying for you. I'm going to give you a simple task of what to do. Go do your job and do a good day's work. Be a great parent to your kids. Don't engage in unnecessary fights with the spouse. Be careful what you put in writing, remembering that a judge is going to read it. And, when something has you upset, give me a call, I will let you know what you need to do, when to help me answer the interrogatories, what documents to send, and then just focus on the here and now. You're at work. Do your job. You’re with the kids at soccer practice, be present with them. And let's keep our eye on the goal that, three years from now, this is where you will be. This is where you'll probably be living. This is what your circumstances will be. And all this drama will be behind you.”

And for me, personally, I just try not to make their emotions my own. So, I don't know if that's helpful in that.

Tyson: I just wonder, do you have any tools because-- sort of, the thing that I use for myself is sometimes I'll just be like, “You know what? Everything's going to be okay.” You know, like I kind of say that to myself if I get a little angry about something or upset about something. Stressed - I'll just be like, “You know what? Everything's going to be okay,” you know, and aIl of a sudden, I'll calm down and move on. You know, Bill Umansky’s got, you know, “flip it like a pancake.”

Do you have any little tools you can use for whenever you're an attorney, you’ve got an emotional client, maybe they say something bad about you to tick you off, like something that you could give people like that they can walk away from this saying, “You know what? Everything's going to be okay.” Any sort of mental tools like that you can give some advice on?

Gary: Well, what I try to do mostly is focus on my actions and not on the results. Earlier in my career, when I try a case, I'd be so focused on, “What does it mean if I win? What does it mean if I lose? How does it affect my client? How does it affect my practice?” and that created such unnecessary stress.

And now I just do it. I focus on what I'm going to do, who I'm going to ask. If you ask me, do I care about the results? I do, but it's not my focus. And I find, when I focus on my efforts in my work, the results will all come out just the way they should. And, you know, you're going to win some and lose some, you know. If you're a sports fan, you know, if you're a UK fan, they're going to win some games and lose some games. And that's just how it is. But focusing on what I do tends to bring about a better result.

I think the other thing is, I think about a lot of the difference between the word fear and faith. When we feel anxious or stressed it's because we're imagining a negative outcome for something that hasn't happened yet. So, being a guest on your podcast, if I worried about, “How will I do? How would it turn out? What will people think about what I say?” That's just an unnecessary fear. But if I replace it with a positive thought that, “Everything will be fine. I'll do great.” I'm going to do better.

So, we really are in control of our mindset and what we think about and whenever I feel anxious or stressed, I try to figure out why am I feeling that way. And it’s usually because I'm not projecting ahead to some outcome I don't like. I'm going to lose something I don't want to lose. I'm not going to get something I want to get. And I shouldn't think that way because it's just a story. We could tell ourselves a different story and change how we feel.


Jim: Running your own practice can be scary, whether you're worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you're losing control over your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.

Tyson: Maximum Lawyer in Minimum Time is a step-by-step playbook that shows you how to identify what your firm needs and how to proactively get it at every stage of the game so you're prepped and excited for the inevitable growth that will follow. Name the lifestyle that you want and we'll show you how to become a Maximum Lawyer in minimum time. Find out more by going to maximumlawyer.com/course.


Jim: We're speaking today with Gary Miles. He's a family law practitioner who owns a firm in Maryland with his son. And he's also actively involved in the Maryland Lawyer Assistance Program.

And I want to transition, sort of, to that part of your life. We talk a lot about attorney wellness, and sanity, and sort of dealing with the stresses of practice. In St. Louis, we've had some attorneys who've actually taken their own lives, so we realize the importance of mental health and taking care of yourself. What, Gary, do you think most people get wrong when they think about the lawyer assistance program and what resources are out there for people?

Gary: What do they get wrong? I think their ego. And I'm not an addiction expert, for sure. While I have some experience, I don't consider myself an expert. But I think it's a disease that tells us we don't have a disease. It's a disease that tells us everything's okay and we'll be okay when it's not.

And from the outside, the attorney’s spouse, or law partner, or someone in the courtroom could see there's a problem but it's a disease of denial where they tell themselves they don't. And I think our ego gets involved in it, for lawyers, because we're afraid to reach out. You know, lawyers are trained to be self-confident, problem solvers, fixers. And to acknowledge that we have a problem that we can't fix on our own is very, very difficult for a lot of people.

And then, there's always the fear of “What will everybody think?” And the reality is that our program, like any other recovery program, is very, very confidential. It's very anonymous but yet there's always this fear, you know, “What if somebody finds out?”

And it's kind of interesting because people are acting in a way that folks around them see there's a problem and yet getting help for the problem for them is scary because people might know. So, it's a bit of illogic there. But I think, mostly, it's a fear to reach out and, and a belief that, “I don't really have a problem” which is actually part of the disease. It's not stupidity. It's not ignorance. It's part of the disease that tells you “you don't have a problem.”

Tyson: Gary, how do you get to the point where you acknowledge it, though? I mean, that's the thing. I mean, like you've got this disease that's telling you “there's no problem” but how do you finally get to the point where you can acknowledge it?

Gary: Well, everybody's views on that are different but it usually comes with hitting what we call a bottom, where something happens, that breaks through that wall of denial, and you realize you want something different. And, for everybody, that's a very different place. Some people don't ever get to that place so there's no predictable stage where that happens. But, for each person, something happens in their life that they say, “That's enough. I want to change. I want something different.”

Jim: You mentioned that sometimes things are obvious to the outsider. When we find ourselves confronting another attorney, maybe it's a friend or an opposing counsel, and we think that something's off, what do you recommend as far as the best ways to handle that?

Gary: Well, if you have something like the lawyer assistance committee in your state, that's what I would do, because we have a trained professional staff member of the Maryland State Bar Association who is a trained mental health and addiction expert and that person can reach out, confidentially, to the attorney. If it's your partner, if it's your practice buddy, you can say something but, you know, my suggestion is reaching out to some professional for guidance because, left to our own devices, we often say things that make sense. People might say, “Why don't you stop drinking?” or “You drink too much” or whatever and that never really helps.

And a lot of lawyers struggle with depression and anxiety. It's a very, very stressful field. You know, Tyson, you just finished trying a case, and you're in the courtroom, and you're on edge, and there are wins and losses. And some of those are I found illogical. I mean, I've won cases, I thought I would never win. I’ve lost a case I thought I should never lose. Go figure. And that creates stress and anxiety because we might have gone expecting a big payday from a case. It doesn't happen. So, I think, a lot of lawyers struggle with that as well. And I think seeking professional help would be my primary suggestion.

We're blessed, in Maryland, to have this committee, but particularly have a department that our bar association funds, that helps lawyers. Now, lawyers in big firms probably have their own HR department. They probably have an EAP program. I believe we're all kind of small practitioners. We don't have HR departments. We don't have EAPs, so our bar association provides that through our lawyer assistance staff.

Tyson: I know we're getting close to time but I do want to ask you this question, because you talked about you believe strongly in clean nutrition and physical health. But I do know, there's a lot of attorneys, that are good friends of mine, and they have really hectic schedules. And it's interesting-- I mean, I think it's just because I did criminal defense for a while, that a lot of them are criminal defense attorneys because they're running from courthouse to courthouse, and they're doing jail calls at night, and they have problems, you know, eating healthy and they have problems, you know, getting a workout. I mean, do you have any advice for the busy lawyer on how they can build that nutrition and those workouts into their day?

Gary: You know, I think, it's a matter of drawing priorities and managing our time. We all have the same 24 hours in a day. People often say, “I don't have enough time” and I would suggest we all got the same amount of time, we just have to organize it, and manage it, and work it into our schedule.

I think nutrition really isn't a problem if it takes some planning and preparation. I have a very healthy vegan protein shake in the morning with avocados, berries, spinach, almond milk, and I'm filled until lunchtime. And I usually take a shake for lunch and it's easy. It's transportable. I can have it in five minutes. And it's funny, when I get my body everything it needs, physically, it runs better. If I have a Corvette and I put in low test gas, it's going to chug away from the gas station. But, you give it the fuel it needs, it works.

And it's funny, I've also found that-- we're talking about mental health and stress, when I changed my nutrition program and started eating better, mentally, I felt happier. I felt lighter. I have a psychologist who I've consulted with and she puts all of her patients on a clean nutrition program because she finds, when they eat better, mentally, they're healthier too.

So, I think, particularly for we, attorneys, planning your food out-- if you know you're going to be out at night, take a shake. I mean, you have to eat something. And sometimes you have to eat fast food. And so, you do, but it shouldn't be a habit. Because I just find the better I eat, the better I feel. I feel more energy. I feel mentally sharp. I'm 66, I feel like I'm 45. I’ve got tons of energy. I'm ready to go. I love it.

Jim: All right, Gary. So, for my last question, I have a young son who wants to go to law school and he thinks he's going to come work here at our firm one day. I was wondering if you had any tips or advice or any stories about working with your son.

Gary: I tell you it's a real true gift. You know, it wasn't really necessarily planned from the beginning that Buddy was going to go to law school. That was a path he ended up choosing. And it wasn't even necessarily planned he was going to come with our firm. It just worked that way.

But there could be no greater gift, Jim, than to come in my office every day and see my son there. And we have at least three or four conversations a day where he’ll consult with me about a file. But we also have three or four where we're talking about what's going on in the family. And that daily contact is wonderful.

I think the other thing that for me is really good, at 66, I won't be doing this forever. And it's a little hard, as a lawyer, to wind down your practice. If you're a solo practitioner, like how do you take on that next accident case and you want to retire in three months, but the case will go for years? So, having someone who can carry on the firm and have a continuing relationship with them, someone who is extremely trustworthy and extremely-- you know, there's no greater loyalty that a father has to a son and vice-versa. And in this day and age, you know, it's not always that way. And law firm’s, generally, your business. So, I just find it a real gift to have the opportunity to work with Buddy every single day.

Tyson: That's awesome.

All right. That's a good note to end on.

So, we’ve got to wrap things up. Before I do. I want to remind everyone to join us in the big Facebook group, just search Maximum Lawyer on Facebook and you can find the group and join us there. There's over 4000. We're approaching 4500 fairly rapidly, Jimbo, members in that group.

If you want to join us in the in the Guild, go to maxlawguild.com. I'm amazed by the high-level conversations that we have there. It's pretty amazing sometimes.

And then, as you're listening to the tips and hacks to end this episode, if you don't mind giving us a five-star review, we would greatly appreciate it.

Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Jim: I was thinking the other day that I've never played in a basketball game that had a referee. I never played in an actual basketball game that mattered. So, I was not an athlete. I know very little about basketball, but my sons love basketball. And my daughter is playing, now, a lot of basketball. And so, I've really gotten into the sport. And I've really enjoyed learning how the game works. I still don't know nearly as much as I do about other sports.

But I happened to pick up a book called Eleven Rings by Phil Jackson. And it's about Phil Jackson's leadership style, about running the Bulls to six championships and the Lakers to five. He himself has two with the Knicks, when he was a player, so he actually has 13 rings, if you can believe that. But it's one of the best leadership books on how to deal with different personalities. I mean, he had to deal with people like Dennis Rodman, and Kobe, and Shaq fighting with each other. It's a remarkable book. I really can't recommend it enough when it comes to philosophy, and leadership, and getting the most out of your team members. It's just fantastic. I highly, highly recommend it.

Tyson: So, Jim, do you know where you heard about that book, because I do?

Jim: Who?

Tyson: Rob Scrub, baby. He's the one that recommended that book to us.

Jim: Oh, was he? Yeah, he was. That's right. Yeah, you're right.

Tyson: So, very cool.

I have not actually read it yet so I'm now more excited to read it. So, I'll check it out.

All right, Gary. So, we always have our guests give a tip or hack of the week. It could be a book. It could be a podcast. It could be a website. It could be really anything. Do you have a tip or a hack for us?

Gary: Yeah. I think my biggest suggestion is that we should always focus our practice on how we can best be of service to our clients, and to the community, and to other counsel - to treat other counsel with respect, keep our word. I read the book called The Go-Giver. And what I love about it is you find that the more you focus on giving, the more you receive back. 

Folks, you think about getting a sale getting the win, tend to be somewhat selfish. If I'm competing with you, we're fighting for the same prize. There's only one of those prizes. One’s we get and one’s not but, if we both focus on giving, we actually create more. So, that's my thought. I love the book, The Go-Giver. I think it's a good philosophy to focus on the give rather than the get.

Tyson: Completely agree. It's one of my top two favorite books. It's such a small, simple read, too. It's so good. I love it, so.

Gary: What's the other?

Tyson: The other one’s probably 12-week year. So, it's a close tie between the two of ‘em because it goes back to what you're talking about, that’s focusing on the task. And he talks about lead goals and lag goals. You know, Jason Selk calls them, you know, process goals and product goals. And so, I like it - the idea of him focusing it down on the things you should focus on.

Gary: Good.

Tyson: Those two are just great.

So, my tip of the week is what actually I thought I'd given on the podcast, Jimmy. And I had mentioned it in the Guild. I was actually just texting with Becca to make sure that I had not given this. I thought I had. And it is something that has saved us so many hours of time when it comes to writing checks. And when Brian Mittman seconded it, in the Guild, I knew I was onto something because he's a total processes guy.

So, since we are a PI firm, we process so many checks on a daily basis. It is crazy how many checks that we write. And it just takes so much time. Well, with bill.com, what happens is that your entire team, if an invoice comes in, it gets forwarded, whether it’s via email, whether it's via fax. You can give fax numbers to your medical providers for them to fax the bills to, if you want to. We've not done that but that's an option. You can upload them.

But the team just sends all the bills to this one, you know, bill.com account. And then, with a few clicks, you can pay all of your bills just either through ACH or they will mail-- they will actually print and mail the checks for you. It is amazing.

We even do with our trust account. So, you can do it with your with your trust account and with whatever invoices you have, whether it’s depositions or it’s for medical records. And it's really cool because whenever they get the check, there's the check on the top of the piece of paper. On the bottom, there’s an actual copy of the invoice. It's really freakin’ cool. So, you get the invoice and the check in the same envelope from bill.com. It's really awesome. I really love it. And it’s saved us a lot of time. 

Gary, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a really great episode. We really appreciate you taking the time.

Gary: Thanks for having me. Have a great day.

Tyson: You, too. Thanks, Gary. See ya.


Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.

Have a great week and catch you next time.


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