This week on the show we have John Jantsch an author, speaker, and marketing consultant who specializes in assisting small businesses. He is the author of Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, and The Commitment Engine. In today’s episode, we’ll talk about strategies to market your small business.
Hacking’s Hack:
Jim recommended John’s podcast, The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast.
Tyson’s Tip:
Tyson recommended another book from John Jantsch, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur: 366 Daily Meditations to Feed Your Soul and Grow Your Business.
John Jantsch’s Tip:
John said if you’re not producing audio content you’re missing out. Audio has portability, it can be listened to at the gym, or in your car. It can also be transcribed to repurpose your content!
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Transcripts: “Creating the Know, Like and Trust Factor” with John Jantsch
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.
Jim Hacking
Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson Meatrix. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim Hacking
Oh, Tyson, I’m so excited about our first or about our guest today, he authored one of the very first marketing books that I bought when I opened my firm. If you look at it, while I guess we’re not going to, you know, it might show the video. But I have notes in there that I’ve actually outlined and underlined. I mean, I learned concepts in here that we take for granted for now that we take granted now, but that at the time I read them, they seemed absolutely mind blowing. I even have on the underneath the duct tape marketing system, which the name of the book is duct tape marketing our guests is John Jantsch. And I’ll get into all that later. But I’m just shocked knowing how little I usually outline and underlying things, how much how much I’ve incorporated John’s message into our practice here. So John Jantsch, welcome to the show.
John Jantsch
Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
Tyson Mutrux
John, this is actually a really good treat for me. And Jim, because Jim and I were talking about your book, and I don’t I don’t know if you remember this, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t, I don’t know if you see the actual covers of your books and feel them. I remember getting a copy of your book whenever I was an undergrad. And like, it had like a texture on the outside of it. It wasn’t it wasn’t a sticky like duct tape. It was like, it was just it was raised a raised cover. And I always remembered I had it on my shelf for years. And I loved actually sold it on Amazon a few years ago. But it was an amazing book. And so I mean, I’m sure you probably hear this all the time, but it’s just a really was a really good book. And so how did you get into writing these really good books and becoming this, this marketing guru,
John Jantsch
I actually started my own marketing consulting firm going on 30 years ago now. And it was just I can hustle work who needs you know, stuff down. I mean, I didn’t have any real plan necessarily. But I was good at hustling work. And I hope it moves into it five years in, or maybe a five volt with a couple of small business clients who wanted me to kind of do their whole thing, you know, instead of just projects. So I took it on, it’s like, you know, I can do that. Sure. But I found that they were kind of difficult to work with. I mean, they had, you know, narrow attention span, and the same problems as much bigger firms I’ve been working with, but of course, no budget. If I was going to work with small business owners, I was gonna have to figure out a way where I could, I could package it up and go, you know, here’s what I’m gonna do, here’s what you’re gonna do, it’ll essentially help to get the costs you wanted or not. And to my surprise, I found that in trying to address my frustration, but actually tapped into what is still today one of the greatest frustrations for small business, it is hard and getting harder to borrow marketing services as a small business because there’s so many platforms, so many details, so many things they need to know about. And if they’re just advocate that to somebody, you know, they’re gonna get ripped off, or at least that’s the feeling. And so there’s, there’s a lot of kind of, it’s almost like a feeling of loss of control of what to do with marketing today. So that was really the genesis of duct tape marketing, I gave the the my my approach that naming because I wanted something more productized you know, brand sounding, I started writing about it, that was about the time when when we all started going online to to get information and to buy products and services and training that turned into my first book, which was called duct tape marketing, I’d been writing about it for years, really just assembled it into a book, you know, it’s kind of a distillation of what I’d been doing for years, I started attracting actually independent marketing consultants as well. And so now we have a network of tech marketing consultants around the world, really working with 1000s of small businesses at pretty much any given time, continue to write continue to our books. As Jim mentioned, my latest book came out a couple of months ago called the self reliant entrepreneur, which is a definite swerve. For me, you know, out of pure marketing, how to, but it’s the right time in my career to kind of share what my entrepreneurial journey has been in a way that I think can be helpful to many of the entrepreneurs that I’ve worked with over the years.
Jim Hacking
John, one of the things in duct tape marketing that really struck me back when I read this about 10 years ago was this statement, when you said without a need or a problem, you don’t really have a market. And I defined problem for our purposes very broadly to include needs and wants, and that our job is to identify and acknowledge what we’re really selling. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about that.
John Jantsch
Yeah, no question. I mean, a lot of people just want to say, you know, here’s what we sell, at least the product we make, here’s the solution we offer, and in many cases, but first off, let’s just be blunt. Nobody wants what we sell. You want to problem solve. In fact, there are a lot of businesses where to not have to do business with us or buy our product category, but they do it because it solves a problem. And I think that the businesses that are very good at articulating the problem, they really solve and it can be goofy things. I mean, we have a tree service that we work with that over the years that time and time again, everyone, their views said something like their shop and they say to go to, and they clean up the job site, it was amazing. They took the tree down beautifully. It was all about, you know, the fact that that the experience of working with them didn’t inconvenience me, because that’s been my experience with other businesses like this, they’re after will understand that that’s the problem in many ways that this tree service was solving to differentiate themselves, as hard as it may be for us to, we want to talk about how we’re amazing arborists and you know, all of our craftsmen, you know, doing the work. But in the end, the homeowner believes anybody kind of tree down if they got a saw. And so it’s just now how, you know, how my experience is going to be? How convenient it’s going to be? Am I going to like their people, you know, that’s the problem that we’re solving. And we need to articulate that
Tyson Mutrux
to John, how do we get to that? I mean, cuz they’re the people that listen to this podcast. They’re a bunch of lawyers that do different practice areas. And so some are estate planning, some are Injury Lawyers, I had, how do you get to that problem? How do you find out what that is for your clients?
John Jantsch
Well, we do have the two methods that we use one reviews, before we have the internet, we interview their customers, you know, what, what we do, why we provide good service, okay, we’ll tell a story about a time they provided good service, and you start sharing themes repeatedly, that, you know, are what they different how to differentiate. And I gotta tell you, especially in the service businesses, I mean, we sell their product in the service businesses, and it’s, it’s always about the experience about how that company or that experience made them feel. That is the big differentiator, particularly in a lot of industries where, you know, let’s face people don’t return phone calls, they don’t do what they promised, I mean, the bar sometimes is pretty low. So we’ll find somebody who exceeds our expectations. On times, we’re willing to really talk about it, we’re willing to stick with them. Increasingly, we mind reviews, today, if a company’s got 25, five star reviews, I can almost guarantee you I can find what their core message should be above the fold on the website, because it’s going to be when those reviews people who turn voluntarily to a medium like a Google reviews, or Facebook or excuse me, now I know there’s one for attorneys to review attorneys as well as Oh, there we go. That’s the words that are contained in those reviews quite often, you know, are real signals to what this comp the problem that this company is really solving.
Jim Hacking
I totally love that quote about how we’re selling hair. And you know, we’re not really there to convince people, we just have to figure out what it is how we can help them. And another quote that I really liked out of your book that I’ve come back to a lot and that we talked to a lot of our members about is price, as I suspect you’ve learned is a terrible place to compete, there will always be someone willing to go out of business faster than you. You know,
John Jantsch
I’ve used that quote in your group, and it takes about five or six seconds for them to go, Oh, I get that that’s the case. You know, it’s a race to the bottom if if you’re competing on price. And unfortunately, a lot of us don’t do it intentionally. It’s just a matter of differentiate ourselves. And what’s the customer left to do? Well, how much you’re you know, how much are you? Okay, that’s, that can make a decision. And like I said, I mean, my real point of that is, you know, it seems like and I mean, I see it everywhere it’s gotten, it’s gotten even worse now that we’ve got we basically are competing with people globally, you know, for for our services. And so, you know, there’s always gonna be somebody who, who will take less money.
Tyson Mutrux
So John, let’s talk a little bit more about just the setup of the book, the self reliant entrepreneur, it’s your book. It’s really awesome. I like to set up a because it has things like challenge questions and all that. But But what was the what was the inspiration for this book?
John Jantsch
Well, so So first, we need to maybe really set it up, it’s 366 daily entries follows a calendar, you know, so you get one page a day is kind of the format. You know, Jim has gotten on video there, if you’re watching the video, every day starts with a quote from some mid 19th century literature, where he talked about why he chose that, but I think it’s some of the best entrepreneurial writing that I’ve just share my thoughts based on my 30 years of doing this, and then NGO everyday was a question to fire give you something to think about. So what would you do? It’s a couple of things. So I’ve worked with 1000s of entrepreneurs. And what I’ve come to realize, especially in this day, and age is all the How to information is there you know, Google it, you’ll find a YouTube video for just about anything you want to know how to do that where the real challenge remains is in the why to do what to do the mindset element of showing up every day following your dreams, staying focused, trusting your gut, trusting that you’re on the path even if you see other people doing things that seem to be more successful than you. And that takes a to me that takes a daily practice and it’s something that I’ve really done in my life for 20 years, is, I think entrepreneurship is one of the greatest personal development programs ever created. But if we’re gonna intentionally doing things a lot, you know, getting centered in the morning, you know, reading stuff that kind of, you know, inspires us meditating exercise, journaling, you know, all the things that a lot of entrepreneurs I think, do today, you know, it’s just so easy to get knocked off course. So what this book is set up to being is kind of a daily practice that you’re not going to take it on vacation and read the thing cover to cover, you know, you’re just going to show up, it’s just going to be part of your daily routine, and hopefully give you something to think about maybe to work on for that day. And I think that, you know, you come back the next day and do a little more, the next day, it’s not, you know, something that that you just, you know, put it in an intensive course on.
Jim Hacking
So this summer I, I listened to some older Earl Nightingale and then this fall, I reread thinking grow rich, and those are all in from the 1900s I was struck, when I got the self reliant entrepreneur, about how all the quotes were from the 1800s. And I’m just wondering, a, why did you choose to do that and be How did you research all these great quotes?
John Jantsch
The thing about that writing, okay, you mentioned in Napoleon Hill, and they were writing inspirational, you know, entrepreneur, you know, follow your dream, you know, you can succeed kind of content. Well, why did is I mind literature that was written in the mid 19th century, that was not written Challenge winners, it was not written with that message in mind at all, that I love finding things. And actually putting that entrepreneur context or marketing context, I read books on architecture, and I can find some, some pearls of wisdom for marketing. And so with that period of time, because if you think about what was going on in America, at the time, we were on the cusp of the Civil War, women were marching in the streets to get the right to vote, we were trying to abolish slavery, it was kind of the first counterculture period in America, where a lot of writers, you know, their form of the first form of reform, wants to write about the the idea that maybe we shouldn’t listen, or don’t need to listen to our preachers or teachers, or politicians or parents, even maybe what we need to do is follow our own heart. And I think that, again, if you go when you go through this book, it was not just the overt people like Thoreau and Emerson that a lot of people are familiar with. But even the fiction from that time, you know, Moby Dick scarlet letter, Little Women, it was the first time in American fiction, or American literature that you started seeing the protagonist, who, you know, was was saying, hey, this may cost me in the end, but I’ve got to stay true to who I am. And I said that still today. That’s some of the best entrepreneurial advice that you can give. And so I went deep into this. And there’s a lot of authors that I found and publications, and I found journals and letters, collections of letters and things that maybe we’re not familiar with a lot of female authors, that certainly didn’t get a lot of exposure in that time period. And I just think it makes a really interesting collection for today’s entrepreneur.
Tyson Mutrux
So John, this is actually a really good segue, because I think most of us whenever we think of, you know, marketing and advertising and how it’s changed over the over the years, we think, you know, about 30 to 50 years back, we don’t think that far back. Yeah, I’m just curious, like, over time, and you’ve been doing this for a long time, you’ve researched, you’ve looked at a lot of different quotes and read a lot of things. Are there certain principles based basic marketing principles that have never changed?
John Jantsch
Absolutely, I don’t think the objective of what we’re all about in our businesses has changed at all, the biggest thing that’s changed is the is the buyers journey, the way you know, the buyer is able to now access us information and obviously the global reach that in the end, we’re just trying to get people to trust us enough to allow us to solve their problems. I don’t think that’s ever changed. That’s always been the goal, pretty much of every business, it’s always been the goal of pretty much every buyer is to connect with that company, or that product or that service, that can help them solve their problems, help them achieve what they want to achieve. And actually, I sometimes think that all the norms of technology and this platform, that platform, this social network, that social network, like sometimes that gets in the way of of people realizing what the ultimate objective is the ultimate objective is, is to meet with somebody and gain enough trust and solve their problems. That’s it. And I think if you look at things under that lens, you will see so many people doing silly things in the name of marketing.
Jim Hacking
We’ll pause for a moment with for a
Unknown Speaker
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Jim Hacking
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John Jantsch
Sure, well, so I actually started dabbling in podcasting. In 2005, it was kind of the new toy that came up after blogging, you know, you hit the nail on the head, I mean, I started as a way to be a member of the media. Now I could reach out to people that I wanted to talk to who maybe had a book coming out. And I could say, I want to interview you all and promote your book. And I got that meeting every time. And that still happens. I think today. And you know, I’ve been doing it for a long time, it’s a revenue stream. For us, we have a large following, it’s helped to build the brand artisans are really positive things that I would do it and didn’t do it. You know, before I had any listeners, because of the way there’s allowed me to connect, I actually, you know, a lot of your listeners are law firms, if they’re, let’s say you’re a lawyer, and your work is primarily with construction firms, you should be interviewing CEOs of midsize and large construction firms on your podcast, who might actually be prospects, but either way, you’re gonna build that library here make connections, you’re gonna build that library of amazing content that your your ideal client probably wants to listen to as well, because they want to hear their peers talk about their success. So you don’t have to think about podcasting. The way you see people doing it today with ads and you know, trying to build a big followings and things I mean, if you have 10 listeners, and 11 are the right ones, then a podcast is an amazing idea. And the good news is the technology and all the tools that we have now, just made it so much easier to do it was a lot of work in the early days to get the files, edit the files, host the files, and then and then show people how to listen. Because we didn’t have all these apps on our phones and things like that. But today, you know, pretty much anybody who’s got a smartphone is a podcast listener now, whether they, whether they know it or not, they’ve got the app on there, and platforms like Spotify or, you know, reaching out across, you know, music to podcasting and connecting those things. Every media publication, you know, the NPR is of the world now are doing all of their programming in podcast format, as well. So it’s just audio content has just become a tremendous way to tap, you know, consumer behavior of wanting to listen to content, but also to I think, God’s the value of kind of having that trust feeling. You know, I hear people all the time, they’ll they’ll run into me speaking at an event and they’re like, Oh, I know it was you because your voice it’s in my head. You know, I’ve been listening for years. That’s, that’s hard to do in the written word.
Tyson Mutrux
You know, Joe, what’s weird about podcasting says to me is that I remember listening to podcasts and Oh, four and oh five and being thoroughly disappointed because there wasn’t a lot out there and it’s taken so long for it to catch on. It’s really fascinating to me, like what do you think that is it because it’s it’s a huge thing right now, what
John Jantsch
is it the last five years have just been straight up? I think what happened was one of the things I mentioned was you kind of had to be a techy person to be able to listen, you know, we didn’t have the apps on the phones and things you had to, you had to download and subscribe to a pod catcher we used to call them to listen to, you know, some of these podcasts. The audio quality was terrible. You know, there were in a lot of cases there. You know, there weren’t any you know, there was no proof actually going into them, you know, a lot of times it was just, you know, somebody’s talking into their, their camera, their mic or something. But also, I think it kind of slowed the growth is that social media came right on the heels of that 2000 678 is when all of a sudden Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook opened up in 2008 to the public. And that became the new shiny thing. And I think that that kind of pushed podcasting aside for a while. And it was really only about, I don’t know, 1112 or so that people started getting right back into it again. And one of the impetuses for that was Apple decided we’re going to put the podcast app natively on the iPhone, I don’t remember what year DACA. That was, but that was really the start of the explosion of the second wave of podcasting.
Jim Hacking
John is a student of marketing and someone who tracks it and watches it, I’d love to hear an outsider’s opinion of what do you think is the state currently of law firm marketing?
John Jantsch
I thought you were gonna ask me when I was talking about my book being you know, 366 meditations to feed your soul and grow your business that we’re gonna talk about whether or not lawyers had a soul.
Tyson Mutrux
Hey, now
John Jantsch
what obligatory had to be in the show? You know, it’s come a long way. I had, I had a client that was a big producer in a major, major law firm, violent, 300 lawyers, and they gave him license, he was a partner and Nicaraguan license got to do his own thing. So he hired me to turn him into an expert. And, you know, I had been blogging, I had interviewing people, like you said, in the construction industry, actually, the example I was citing in the construction industry, and it just made his practice absolutely explode. And it’s so much to the point where his partners actually said, You got to start reading this in your making this look bad. Now, I think that that’s, that was, what 10 plus years ago, more than that about 1215 years ago, but I think that would have worked with the industry still lags behind, in my experience, in many ways. But I do think that the content element, you know, if the institute is we can’t tell them all of our secrets, or they won’t hire us. That kind of mentality, which has definitely shifted now to now we need to educate, you know, we will be out there, we need to be doing video and audio. Satrapi certainly come come a long way in that regard.
Tyson Mutrux
All right, John, I’m gonna ask you a question. I’m not sure you’re gonna be able to answer it. I’m just, I’m just curious. So, you know, for you, we’re doing podcasting, and it’s finally exploding. Is there something now in 2019, that in 15 years or so, you’re gonna say, I should have gotten into that 15 years ago.
John Jantsch
15 years from now, I’m going to be sitting in my mountain cabin, not really pondering the state of Internet Marketing. However, I don’t think there’s any new big platform out there, like social media was was really a departure from anything we’ve done before. I don’t think there’s any just departure left, let her do some deals, all of these things that we’re doing, we’re gonna see them mature, you know, everybody has been talking about AI for four or five years, we’re not there yet. You know that. In fact, I think the dread the jury’s still out on whether or not, that’s actually going to be as useful as people have implied. And I do think that some of the ways in which people distribute and consume content video and audio, right now, if I were, you know, if I’m jumping into this, extolling all over again, I wouldn’t start a blog, written word blog, per se, I would definitely go 100% into producing video, and audio content to put in, you know, a lot of the different live streaming places that people put content I, I wouldn’t invest very heavily in YouTube, in terms of, you know, not just producing content there. But getting that content to show up in search. We’re gonna find a time in the not too distant future. Where searches on YouTube the volume of searches on YouTube match or mirror the volumes of searches on Google.
Jim Hacking
John, do you think it’s too late for people to get into video?
John Jantsch
No, no, no, not at all. I think we’re still on the cusp. I mean, if you want to do like the, you know, 100,000 or 100 million views, influencer viral person, you know, maybe it’s late. But the beauty is that the behaviors there now, and industries that maybe lag behind some of that have a real advantage, because consumers want that content. So if you’re a law firm, or you’re remodeling contractor right now, don’t go on YouTube. So you can be the next YouTube sensation going there because people are looking for content there. And you can be an early adopter in some industries to be there.
Tyson Mutrux
John, do you have any other books that are on the horizon? Are you working on anything else? I want to tell people about,
John Jantsch
well, I wish I was in 2020, a, a substantially revised duct tape marketing is coming out. And in fact, it will probably we’re going to add something to the name like duct tape marketing, you know, reapplied or something like that, because the change is going to be pretty substantial.
Tyson Mutrux
That’s awesome.
Jim Hacking
John, talk to us a little bit about what your business is now, you know, has grown I know you have people that you work with your team, a little bit about your setup.
John Jantsch
Sure. So in one sense, we operate as a traditional marketing consulting firm, we have small businesses that engage my firm, to help them develop strategy and then implement almost as a an outsize marketing department, all of the elements of marketing that we build into a plan. We also have a network of independent marketing consultants that that use our same methodology and collaborate with each other. We have about 150 of them around the world. And they, you know, all worked out with 1000s of small businesses installing the duct tape marketing system as well, I still do this speaking, the writing the podcasting, my books, you know, are still a pretty significant part from a revenue stream, but also just from a brand building sense as well. We are in 2020, in addition to, as I said, a substantially revised duct tape marketing, I think there’s a real gap in the market for training of marketing professionals to work in small businesses, but a lot of small business owners go out and hire a lot of small law firms go out and hire that marketing assistant. And then there’s really nobody at the firm who knows how to tell them what to do. And so they’re left kind of floundering a lot of times, and so I think we are introducing something we’re called certified marketing manager, that is a world that we’re gonna be able to reach out to businesses and say, like, let us train your staff, we have this network of consultants will actually work with them, not just train them, but we’ll help them build your marketing plan. And if they’ve got, you know, we’ll coach them to implement that marketing plan. Because I think that there’s a lot of people trying to get into the world teach you how to be a digital agency world, that. So we’re, you know, our kind of innovation, because we’ve been in that space a long time, our innovation now is going to be to go into the training and certification, and maybe even placement so that we can actually go out to a firm and say, Okay, you need a dedicated marketing person, we’ve got to post and we’ve certified that will embed, you know, in your firm, and then we’ll manage that person, as a coach or consultant, I think the market is ready for that model.
Tyson Mutrux
I absolutely love that. And I think there’s a lot of listeners to this show that actually that you just struck a chord with them. And it’s like, oh, my gosh, there’s like this aha moment. So I think you’re gonna have a lot, a lot of people that that are gonna like that. I do want
John Jantsch
to know,
Tyson Mutrux
we are gonna let you plug it. But I do want to, I want to be respectful of your time. So I’m going to start to wrap things up for I do I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group get involved there, make sure you also register for Max law comm 2020. And before I get to Jimmy’s hack of the week, go ahead, John, and make that pitch. How do people get in touch with you?
John Jantsch
Sure. Well, if you ever find out, look at what I’ve been doing for the last 20 years or so it’s just duct tape. marketing.com Do you see T TA P E. marketing.com. And if our little conversation about the self reliant entrepreneur, honey appeal, just self reliant entrepreneur.com. And you can find far more information bunch of interviews like this that I’ve done as well. Awesome. Jimmy,
Tyson Mutrux
what’s your hack of the week?
Jim Hacking
I’ve recommended a lot of podcasts on this show, but I’ve never recommended duct tape marketing. But I’ll do that right now. Because it was the podcast that helped me get up to speed learn my lessons get. I mean, I didn’t know anything about marketing. When I started when I read that book, Seth Godin, and John Jantsch, and Dean Jackson, those are the guys that I followed. Those are the guys that got me on the path to all that you guys know how obsessed I am now about marketing. But a long time ago, I was right there not knowing jack squat. So thanks to John, for coming on the show. And welcome to this podcast every week,
Tyson Mutrux
John, so we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week, do you got something for us that we can tell our guests or listen? Yeah, well,
John Jantsch
I’m not a big fan of hacks myself, you know, I think you got to put in the work and mature things over time. So I wouldn’t lean more towards a tip. And we’ve talked a lot about it if you’re not producing audio content, and that can be a podcast, or that could just be you talking into a microphone and uploading that content somewhere. There’s so many benefits. First off, we talked about the trust building benefit of it. We talked about the portability of it, people can take it with them, you know, whatever they’re doing, you know, jogging, walking the dog, but you can also get that stuff transcribed. And now all of a sudden you’ve got written content as well, I don’t know about your listeners, but a lot of small business owners, I’m guessing a lot of attorneys can talk a lot can tell stories can explain complex things in simple ways, get that recorded, and then transcribe it and all of your words about all of our produce, all this content will go away.
Tyson Mutrux
I love it. And John, without even knowing it, you that means you’re on my team, it’s Tyson’s tip and hackings hack, but you give me a tip, that means you’re automatically on my team. So that’s awesome. All right. So my tip of the week, I was gonna, I was actually going to give a tip for another book, but I’m not going to do that with you being on here. So I’m actually going to promote your book, the self reliant entrepreneur, 366, daily meditations to feed your soul and grow your business. It’s pretty awesome. I’ve, I obviously haven’t read the entire book, because it’s, it’s a daily reflection thing. But from what I’ve seen, it’s been awesome. I really, really recommend it. I’m guessing you can get on Audible Amazon, iTunes, wherever. That’s right. That’s right. But so but I’ll give you the last word, John, thank you so much for coming on. And I, I gotta say this, I truly mean as like, you’re one of mine and one of Jim’s heroes. So it’s so awesome having you on but I’ll let you have the last word.
John Jantsch
Just I just appreciate you having me on. And, you know, I would tell people, if you’ve got listeners that that need help with marketing, just reach out to us. So or at least have a conversation about, you know, the strategic part of marketing as opposed to just all of the tactics and feel free to send me an email at John at duct tape. marketing.com.
