"Go-Giver Mentality" w/ Bob Burg 236

In today’s episode we're joined by the author of The Go-Giver, Bob Burg. The Go-Giver is a Wall Street Journal and BusinessWeek Bestseller and has sold over 950,000 copies. It was rated #10 on Inc. Magazine’s list of the Most Motivational Books Ever Written, and was on HubSpot’s 20 Most Highly Rated Sales Books of All Time.

The American Management Association named Bob one of the 30 Most Influential Leaders and he was named one of the Top 200 Most Influential Authors in the World by Richtopia.

Bob is an advocate, supporter and defender of the Free Enterprise system, believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve.

5:05 Focus on giving
6:40 Giving away your best stuff
9:25 providing value vs promotion
12:22 Empathy vs sympathy
16:03 Maintain mindset of what is good
17:27 Happiness is a function of positive detachment 
20:08 Dealing in truth
22:00 Leadership during pandemic burnout

Watch the interview  here.

Jim’s Hack: Book - Limitless by Jim Kwik

Tyson’s Tip: Unfollow the negative stuff on Twitter, follow the positive stuff.

Bob’s Tip: Book - Smart Calling: Eliminate the Fear, Failure, and Rejection from Cold Calling by Art Sobczak

If you enjoyed the show, we’d appreciate a 5-Star review!

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Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux.

What's up, Jimmy?

Jim: Oh, Tyson, we've had some technical difficulties this morning, which is not unusual for us but I'm glad that we're about to get started. Do you want to get right to it and then introduce our guest?

Tyson: Yeah, so we've had this person on the podcast before. To me, it's a really, really special guest. We've only had a few repeat guests. I think Bob is our third repeat guest. Seth Price and John Fisher being the other two. We may have had one other, but I can't remember if it is. So, let's say that Bob is our third repeat guest.

It's Bob Burg. Honestly, he doesn't need much of an introduction. For 30 years, he has helped companies, sales leaders and their teams to more effectively communicate their value, sell at higher prices with less resistance and grow their businesses based on endless referrals. Most of you probably know him from the book, The Go-Giver, which I talk about all the time, so does Jimmy.

Bob, welcome back to the show.

Bob: I so appreciate that introduction. Thank you very much. And I appreciate you both and the great work y'all do.

Jim: Bob, so talk to us about what's the latest with The Go-Giver. I mean, the book itself, there's a whole series now of The Go-Giver. The Go-Giver book itself has been a great framework for both Tyson and I. It's a wonderful fable on life and how to approach life, but where do things stand with The Go-Giver as it's expanded into the universe?

Bob: Well, thank you. You know, it has really been a journey. And, of course, so much of its success is due to John David Mann, my co-author, but really the lead writer and the storyteller, who's just such a magnificent wordsmith. I'm so thankful for that collaboration. And, you know, people like yourself who really have gotten behind and been our Go-Giver ambassadors, if you will, so we really appreciate that.

So yeah, there are four books in the series now, three of them are parables. The latest one is The Go-Giver Influencer which came out a couple of years ago. The original one is now at about-- we say 950,000 but since then it's climbed, I think it's closer to 975,000.

So, you know, we're excited about the progress of it but, really, we love the feedback that we receive from people such as yourselves who are already successful people long before you ever read the book and you were doing these principles. We always say there's nothing in this book that's particularly new, right. And so, yeah, the progress with it has just been a fun ride, fun journey.

Tyson: So Bob, I'm curious because I don't think we got into this the last time we had you on but what were some of your personal experiences that helped you kind of, with The Go-Giver, and formulate the story?

Bob: Well, you know, it really was from the Endless Referrals book which was a how-to book. That was really kind of my first book, the first big book, back in the ‘90s. I think the first edition of it came out in ‘94, I think. It was really on how people who-- and we had a lot of attorneys, actually, plug into this book because it was for people who they had a great product or service. They knew it brought immense value to those they served, but they maybe didn't feel comfortable in the process of building relationships. And as you all know, people such as attorneys, and other professionals - accountants, dentists, people who have mastered a craft, master the skill are great technicians, are great practitioners. They really don't want to think of themselves as salespeople and yet a lawyer needs to sell their legal services, right, or they can be the best attorney in the world and not have any people that they're serving.

So, it was really a how-to confidently go out there and be able to meet new people and develop relationships where people would begin to know you. They would like you. They would trust you. They would want to do business with you and/or refer you to others. And so, that was really how that began, as I worked with that book and was doing my programs - my speaking programs.

You know, I'm a big reader and I always-- one of the types of books I love to read are business parables because they’re stories. I've spoken with, of course, our mutual friend, Mitch Jackson, and we talked about how stories are so powerful when it comes to communicating an idea. Stories that come from the heart, enter the heart. Stories connect on an entirely different level. And so, I always enjoyed reading them. I thought, ”What if we could take the basic idea of Endless Referrals and turn that into a parable?” And it was really a matter of saying, “Okay, so these attorneys, these entrepreneurs, these salespeople who are able to build and cultivate these know, like and trust relationships both quickly and sustainably - and both are important, what's their essence? What is it that they do?” And it's that they're always giving. Their focus is on giving value to others.

And so, it was very easy to say, “Okay, well, name of the book, The Go-Giver,” right. So then it was just a matter of saying, “Okay, now, what are the principles that are that are basically used?” And John David Mann who-- John was a very successful entrepreneur, even before he began his writing career. And as john and I have both had our various businesses, our successes, our failures, and have made a study of other people's successes and failures and so forth. You begin to recognize, I think, over time, certain principles that when they're applied together, in conjunction, that's what results in success. And success, whether we're talking financial, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional, social, relational, they all seem to kind of be the same. In a sense, they transfer across the board. So, we just took those and we named those principles as they fit into a story. So, that's really how that came about.

Jim: When you talked about creating value and providing value. You know, we spend a lot of time in our group talking about creating content. A lot of people seem to think that they shouldn't give away their best stuff, that when they're making their YouTube videos or making their newsletters that they should hold some stuff back like their best tips on how to get this case approved or their best tip on how to run a law firm. Sometimes people are very proprietary and don't like to share. I know that's in total conflict with The Go-Giver mentality. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Bob: Well, intuitively, it would make sense, right, because well, if I give away too much, people aren't going to need me. That's usually not the case though because even when you do a how-to, some really great content about how to accomplish a certain thing that you might want to do, I think, people know that if they really want-- most people know, if they really want to be able to do this correctly, they need to engage that person who has put out that information because that person is the one who's going to be able to help them walk through it. So there typically isn't a need to do that.

Now, in terms of proprietary with regards to-- well, could another attorney maybe steal my information and do it as their own? Well, I'm a big believer in private property rights and in copyright right and so forth. No, you shouldn't, that’s theft when someone does that.

Now, does it ever happen? Well, sure, because people are people and, unfortunately, that is-- but, by and large, Jim, it works out that when you just put that out there and you don't really-- and I'm not saying not to concern yourself with certain elements but, when you don't focus on those negative elements, by and large, it's going to come back to you in big ways, and it's really not as big a concern. It doesn't mean it's not for us. I've certainly had my stuff stolen. They can say, “Well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.” Well, it's also the sincerest form of theft. So, you know, just because someone wants it, it doesn't mean it's right. But, really, I think, if we focus on that, we're just not going to put out information. Everything you do have to say, “Oh, well, is this going to--?” Nah, you know what, it's just been shown if you just watch it over time, the more good content you put out there, the more you position yourself as that expert, that go-to person, and it tends to come back in a good way.

Tyson: Yeah. And what's interesting is most of the content that all of us put out has been put out by someone before.

Bob: Yeah, right.

Tyson: It has been put up by somebody before. It's not like we’ve invented everything. 

Bob: Right. Well, exactly.

Tyson: So, I have a question about providing value versus self-promotion because there's such a fine line between it, right? I guess, what advice would you give people to actually providing value as opposed to just promoting themselves? Because promotion’s important, right, but sometimes it looks a little selfish whenever you do it. So, what's your advice to people on that?

Bob: Well, I think it's important that when we put out content, that we kind of go over it and make sure that it doesn't appear self-promotional. Here's why. I say this when I speak at sales conferences and it really hits home. And that is that nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to meet, right. As an attorney. No one's going to engage you because you have a mortgage payment or you want to build your law firm, okay. They're only going to do so, they're going to engage you, because they believe they'll be better off by doing so than by not doing so. So, it's actually in your best interest, if you want to get your content consumed, to develop that reputation as that person who's constantly putting out good content.

Now, that doesn't mean you're not. You are promoting yourself as you're doing that, but it also doesn't mean you can't promote within or promote at certain times. You know what I'm saying? We’ve just got to make sure that what we do is not make it an infomercial because, if we do that, it loses all value really to that other person. So, we want to do it in a way that's appropriate.

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Jim: You had a great video, recently, on your Influence &Impact blog, about the difference between empathy and sympathy. We, as lawyers, have to sort of deal with people sort of, sometimes, at their worst or at their weakest points. And so, can you talk to our listeners a little bit about the distinction between empathy and sympathy?

Bob: Well, this is something that, again, was not an original idea of mine. And in the video, I credited Zig Ziglar as having first taught that. I also credited something wonderful I had read in Tim Sanders’ book The Likability Factor. But yeah, it’s certainly not an original idea on my part. And the two words sound very similar. And they are. As I said, they're cousins, but they're not siblings, right.

Sympathy is really when you feel badly. You're feeling badly for someone which, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. It means you're human. It means you have a heart and a soul. But sometimes sympathy-- when you're sympathetic only, you're so involved in their problem that you become a part of the problem. And Zig gave a great example of that that I cited in the video. And that is, if you're on a cruise ship, and you come across someone who's seasick, if you're sympathetic and only sympathetic, you're going to be so wrapped up in their sickness and their suffering that you'll get seasick. You know, you'll get sick and you won't be able to help that person.

When you're empathetic. Sure, you feel badly, but now you're kind of placing yourself in their situation in a way that's more positive, in a way that it allows you to be a part of the solution. When you're empathetic you say, “Okay, there's an issue there. There's a problem there. What can I do to help?” okay, because now it's about them. It's not about you and your feelings. It's about them and their feelings. So you'll get the person a cold washcloth. You'll get them some seasickness pills, maybe. You'll send for the ship's doctor. You know, you'll do those things that help live in the solution.

Certainly, as attorneys, I mean, you've got to, if you just sympathize for everybody and only sympathize for your clients, they'd be in trouble because you wouldn't be able to help them. If you empathize, okay, now it's about them and how you can now get with them and help come up with a solution.

Tyson: I love that. I have not read that article so I might have to read that. That's really good.

So, I have an interesting question, I think. I'm guessing you probably get this all the time. Of the five laws of stratospheric success, is there one that's more important than every other?

Bob: It really is such a great question. I don't know if there's one that's necessarily any more important because, if you take any of them away, you really cannot be as totally successful as you would be, okay. I think there are ones, first, that we relate to more than others. Then, I think there are those that we need to work on more than others.

So, for example, you may really relate to the one about value, let's say, and you're so focused, and you're really good at that. I mean, you have a way of really combining excellence, and consistency, and attention, and empathy, and appreciation, and all those things that help bring immense value to someone else. But maybe, when it comes to receptivity, right, allowing yourself to receive the abundance that you've earned through providing that value, maybe there are some issues there. So, it's not that one is any more important but some that we may find to be more of a strength already and others we need to work on.

Jim: One of the things that I really enjoy about your Twitter feed is that it's very positive, right. You're always sharing good stories of people overcoming problems and things. And so, one of my problems is I get really caught up in the issue of the day and I get mad and I hop on Twitter or I post things on Facebook. Tyson loves to point out the inconsistencies in the things that I post. And I've been thinking, boy, wouldn't it be nice to just be outside of or above all that stuff? How do you sort of maintain that mindset to sort of just focus on the things that are good in the world as opposed to getting all caught up in the hot issue of the day?

Bob: Well, I just love that because the fact is I don't. I have to work on it consistently because I'm like both of you. Probably, we're all like most people, we do get caught up in these issues and we're emotional about it because it's very meaningful to us. It's really difficult, sometimes, to separate ourselves.

I think what we need to do is-- and again, it's a work in progress for me as much as anyone, is to always look at, first of all, what we can control and what we can't. The stoics, of course, talked about that. That was such a main emphasis of theirs - about living in what you could control and acting on that. But what you couldn't control, being able to accept that it was something you couldn't control.

Michael Singer is one of my favorite and there's, of course, many wonderful teachers such as such as he but his two books, The Surrender Experiment and The Untethered Soul. You know, I go back and listen and read passages from that because there's so much he talks about in terms of really understanding that our happiness is really a function of that kind of positive detachment-- not being attached to a certain thing because when we're attached, we can't be happy because basically attachment means, by definition, that our sense of happiness, of well-being, of peace of mind is dependent upon another thing. And if it's something we can't control, we simply can't be happy.

Now, all that said, it's still difficult. And so, what I really try to do is when I post, or tweet, or what have you, I just simply ask myself the question, “Is it coming from a place of love? Is it coming from a place of peace? Is it coming from-- or is it coming from fear, or anger, or whatever?” Usually, that helps me know whether it's something that I should post, or tweet, or not, or if it's something I might regret doing. I also ask, “Will this add value to the conversation?”

Remember, that doesn't mean that we don't comment or that we don't disagree, but we want to disagree in such a way that we don't disrespect that other person but rather we talk about ideas. I often say and you may have seen my tweet on this that, where I say that tact and kindness should never be confused with compromise. We can always speak tactfully and respectfully to others without compromising our values.

Tyson: That's fantastic.

Jim, you need to adopt everything that Bob just said before you post anything, okay?

Jim: I do. I do. It’s just hard.

Bob: I need to adopt it, too, because I still have to work on it.

Tyson: We all do. I think [inaudible 00:19:24].

Bob: That’s a great point, Tyson. You're right. Yeah, we all do.

Tyson: All right, so Bob-- I mean, unless you're under a rock, you've been living under a rock, everyone knows we're in the middle of a pandemic, right. We're not able to go out and have coffee with people to build relationships and have lunch with them. It's difficult to have that human interaction so it's hard to build those relationships. Especially, the people that are dependent on referrals, that's harder. I keep getting a bunch of LinkedIn requests from people because I could tell they want have a phone call as opposed to a coffee.

I don't have a major question, like a really defined question here. I guess, what's your advice to people right now, while we're in the middle of this? It's a tough time.

Bob: It is. And I think it goes back to dealing in truths which successful people tend to do. They look at the situation for what it is and they accept the truth of what is.

Now, please don't misunderstand, that doesn't mean you just accept that there's nothing you can do about it. But what it does mean is you look at what it is, you understand the truths of it, and then you go right back to, “What can I control in my actions, my thoughts? And what can't I control?” You operate accordingly from there.

The fact is, there are certain restrictions, whether it's just understanding for our own sake of health, or whether it's a government restriction, or whether it's-- you know, what have you that we don't have control over.

So, let's say we're talking about bringing value to others. We ask the question, “Okay, so how do I?” If I can't meet someone at-- Tyson, it looks like you have a Starbucks cup so you would be meeting at Starbucks. With me, it's Dunkin Donuts. And so, we can't. But, if we were to meet, I would meet with you at Starbucks. So, what can we do? Well, a great way is to hop on the phone or hop on-- now, but here's the other thing, you can't just get on the phone with everyone, too. You know, I get all these people asking me to get on the phone for a conference. At LinkedIn, you get that a lot, right. Someone connects with you on LinkedIn.

And so, I've had to be able, in a polite, in a kind way, just let people know I'm not able to take phone calls just to say hi and everything. But then, of course, if they have a specific question, or need help with something, please always feel welcome to ask. In that way I'm able to but that's just me. You know, we can we can do things however we decide is going to be the best way to connect.

Jim: Bob, what about leadership during this time? At our firm, a lot of the team members are feelings sort of fatigued, sort of burnt out. We have some parents of young kids who are trying to juggle all this stuff. A lot of people are feeling like everything’s sort of blended together, like they're just scrambling to keep everything going day to day. How do we lead people who are sort of in that place right now?

Bob: One thing I've seen is that leaders, who are holding these video meetings right now with everyone working from home, have really made a point - the effective ones, have really made it a point to be more personal. That it's not just business. But to really communicate that you care about your team members.

I was reading, this was a tweet, and I wish I could credit who the leader is, but they never said, but he or she, when they held their team meeting, through Zoom, they would actually go around to all the participants and just bring up personal questions first. You know, how's things going with your family? What are some of the things you're doing to teach the kids and helping with their home schooling? And they were actually discussing ideas and throwing around ideas from everybody, making it a circular discussion. Then, after that was through, then getting down to business.

That's certainly not a panacea. But I think it is very important, at this point, for people to know that their leaders are thinking of them. Always, it's important to be thought of as more than just an employee. But I think, especially at this time, it's very, very important for people to know that, yeah, they're in their homes, but they're not alone. They're still part of a company family as well.

Tyson: Bob, we're getting near the end of this episode, but I want to ask you. I'm just curious. Like what do you have planned for the future? Like, what are you going to be doing over the next five to 10 years? I mean, what are your plans?

Bob: Well, my business partner, Kathy Tagenel, and I-- Kathy is just so brilliant. She's amazing. We've put together a few things that we've been doing now, over the past few years, to really build for the future, all of which is really fun because we really like to have fun at our work. We generally don't do it if it's not fun.

We have been building a certification program. We have about like some 55 or 60 certified Go-Giver speakers, mostly in North America but throughout the world, who license my-- I guess, for lack of a better term, intellectual properties over the past 30 years. We teach them how to build a speaking practice, a speaking business, utilizing those materials.

We're also doing much more online, so we have just released our Endless Referrals: The Go-Giver Way online video course. And so, that's something over the next few years we really want to build because, obviously, we’re going to reach more people, without me having to be there, through an online video. And as I get older, because I'm 62 right now, I want to be on the road much less. For so many years I was just on the road a lot and never really enjoyed that part. And again, as I get older, I'm less willing to do anything that's not really fun. For the last couple years, I've been speaking no more than 20 times outside of Florida. But, you know, this pandemic has gotten me really used to being home all the time and I really like it. So, it's going to take a real lot for me to go on the road [inaudible 00:25:33].

Now, Kathy and I do also have our Endless Referrals: The Go-Giver Way in the form of a two-day workshop, a live workshop, that we hold in Orlando, but that's just a couple of hours drive from me and that's fine. So, all those things help us to continue doing the business, have a lot of fun with it bring what we hopefully feel is a lot of value and being able to take the business to another level.

Tyson: Jim, I see a two-day trip in our future within Maximum Lawyer.

Jim: That’d be awesome.

Bob: [inaudible 00:26:02], sure.

Jim: That’d be awesome.

Bob, for my last question, talk to us a little bit, if you would, about your routine - your daily routine. How you sort of get going in the morning, sort of. I know that you have tons of books that I know that you read and share great insights on. Talk to us a little bit about sort of how you set your day.

Bob: I'm up at five o'clock. First thing I do and I know people say don't do this, but I check my emails and social media. No, not on my phone because I don't do any of that stuff on my phone but, you know, I work out of my home, so my commute is downstairs. I put that first cup of coffee on. I really don't even need coffee to wake up. I just enjoy it.

By the time I feed little Calvin the cat, it's usually about 5:15 to 5:20. And for the next 55 minutes or so, I check my emails, social media, answer correspondences. It’s just important for me to be able to answer people.

And then, Diane, who is my trainer, who has been for the last 10 years, she comes in usually at about 6:05 to 6:10. She takes me through her workout five times a week. I do that because I really don't like working out. And if I didn't have her doing this, I wouldn't work out. She also prepares all my meals every day that I just have to microwave. I know what I can eat-- because I love junk food, I could live or maybe not live on pizza, and ice cream sundaes, and doughnuts. Really, what she does is she keeps me keeps me going in a way.

And so, by the time the workout is through, it's, I guess, about seven o'clock or so, if I'm timing this right. I maybe go back, answer a few things. And then, I go hit the showers. And then, I'm really back here. I do a bunch of reading in the morning. And then, I start the day.

You know, it's, it's probably a little different from most because, again, the wisdom is don't get on the computer too early, but I do.

Tyson: I absolutely love that. It’s funny. It was my turn to wrap things up. And I was so fascinated listening to you, to talk about things. I like hearing other people's morning routines.

Jim, I'm glad you asked that question because it-- especially whenever you hear successful people talk about what they do in the mornings. It's great.

So, by the time it's 7:30 in the morning, you've done more than half the people have done in an entire workday so.

Bob: But only because I create that frame, the context, where it has to happen. Because, again, if Diane wasn't in the picture, I wouldn't work out and I'd eat something junk. So, it's worth it, to me, to make sure that's part of it.

Tyson: The major lesson. That's a very good lesson for this episode. Just that piece by itself.

I do want to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group, get involved there. We’ve got a lot of great people in the Facebook group sharing information every single day. Also, if you don't mind, if you enjoy podcasts like this one. This is an excellent one. This specific episode. I'm not talking about me and Jim. I'm talking about Bob. He's amazing-- give us a five-star review. We will appreciate it.

Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Jim: So, speaking of books, I just finished a phenomenal book that Joey Vitale gave me. I think I've mentioned it a little bit. It's called Limitless by Jim Kwik. It's a great, great book. Bob was talking about telling stories and Jim opens up the book telling about an incident when he was in grade school. He fell in his classroom and hit his head on a radiator and he had real bad brain problems after that. His teacher actually called him the boy with the broken brain. 

And he took that and turned it into a life study of the brain. So, he's a real expert on speed reading, on memorization. He's just built this huge following. He has a podcast and now this book. He's all about building people's brains. And he says, “Leave no brain behind.”

And so, the book itself is really fantastic when it comes to what nutrition should I be doing to build my brain? What activities should I do to build my brain? How do I have the right mindset, the right motivation? It was just a phenomenal book. Joey gave it to me on Kindle. I listened to it and I read it. I bounced back and forth. It's phenomenal.

Tyson: That's good stuff. Excellent. It’s is on my list. It's a long list of books I need to read but that's on my list. It’s near the top.

Bob, I don't know if you remember but we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. It can be a book, a podcast. It can be anything, really. Do you have anything you can think of? I know I'm putting you on the spot.

Bob: That's okay. Let's see. As far as a book, I would say that Art Sobczak-- it's spelled S-O-B-C-Z-A-K, Art Sobczak has the third edition of his immensely wonderful book called Smart Calling: Eliminate the Fear of Failure and Rejection from Cold Calling. He believes not in cold calling but smart calling. He is absolutely, when it comes to utilizing the phone, this guy is my go-to guy. Goodness, I think businessbyphone is his website and all his free materials too - his newsletter, his podcast just-- again, so fantastic, that I recommend them highly. So, that would be about the greatest hack I could provide.

Tyson: Excellent. Very, very good stuff.

Before I get to my tip, I do want to make sure that we let everybody know how they can reach Bob and really get involved with what he's doing. You've got to gogiverspeaker.com. You've got burg.com, thegogiver.com. You've got the Go-Giver podcast. And then, there's also your workshop, July 20 and 21st, for those people that are comfortable traveling - endlessreferrals.com is where you can get involved there so check it out.

Bob, anything else that you want to-- I say promote, but anything else that you want to let people know about that they can get involved in that you're doing right now?

Bob: At burg.com, if they scroll down, I have a video blog that I've been doing a couple of times a week. Jim had mentioned that. So, that's something they may be interested in looking at.

Tyson: Fantastic.

All right, so my tip of the week, this relates to what Jim was talking about. I know I tease Jimmy but he has a lot of positive things on his Twitter feed and on his Facebook profile. He just mixes it in with some negative stuff every once in a while. That's what I give him the trouble about. 

Here’s my tip. I mean, I was sick of going to my Twitter account and just opening it up and seeing all the negativity, so I just started unfollowing all the negative stuff and following the positive stuff. So, if that's something that's concerning you, which I think it should, I think you should have positive influences in your life, follow more positive people. Unfollow the negative people.

Bob, thanks so much for coming on again. You're very generous with your time. Thank you so much. It's always great to talk to you. Thank you.

Bob: My pleasure. I appreciate the two of you. Thanks so much for having me on.

Tyson: Awesome.

Jim: Thanks, Bob.

Tyson: Take care.

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