A Newly Founded Firm with Andrew Lacy 310

In today’s episode Jim and Tyson joined Andrew Lacy, the owner of The Lacy Employment Law Firm, LLC which focuses primarily on plaintiffs employment law. Andrew founded the firm after working five years at a large international law firm. 

3:10 big law model
5:32 solo firm vision
6:33 the idea to go solo
8:20 take the risk
9:15 leaving big law
11:53 building out your future firm
16:29 hiring expectations
20:55 myth of stability
21:38 starting SEO early
22:17 social media strategy  

Jim’s Hack: Book: Psycho-Cybernetics

Andrew’s Tip: Put out some free information, it will likely come back to benefit you.

Tyson’s Tip: Check out Might Networks, Tyson is trying them out for client trainings in the form of an online course. 

Watch the recording here.

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Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson: I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?

Jim: Oh, Tyson, we're in that stage of life where hope springs eternal. Baseball is about to start. Yadier threw out a guy that he dared to steal on him yesterday in spring training. The sun is out. The grass is starting to turn green. Life is good.

Tyson: Yadier’s still got it, baby. He’s still got it. He's over the other side of the rainbow when it comes to his career but he's still got it, man. Still got it.

All right, let's rock and roll, man. Do you want to introduce our guest?

Jim: Yeah. So, our guest today is Andrew Lacy. He's the owner and founder of the Lacy Employment Law Firm. Before that, he worked for a Am Law 100 law firm called Reed Smith. He also had a federal clerkship with a judge in the Western District of Pennsylvania. He's an alum of Cornell Law School. And we are very excited to have him on the show.

Andrew, thanks for being with us.

Andrew: Thanks, Jim. Happy to be here.

Tyson: So, Andrew, tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are now.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.

So, I went up to upstate New York to go to law school at Cornell. And, when I got there, it was kind of a culture shock because I grew up my whole entire life playing sports and football. And then, I get there and there's all these people with Mercedes Benz’s and rich parents talking about going to these prestigious firms in New York. So, I kind of went up there thinking I'd be more of a DA, PD type of thing, a trial lawyer. And then, everyone was doing this. Everyone was going into Biglaw.

So, I decided to go back to my hometown of Pittsburgh and give that a shot. So, I worked at Reed Smith for a couple of years. Then, I did a clerkship with a Reed Smith alumnus, I'm sorry, in the Western District. And then, my wife decided that we should move to Philadelphia because Pittsburgh was, you know, too small and she wanted a bigger city and to be closer to New York.

So, I worked at Reed Smith for two and a half more years. The whole time I'm there, I just thought, you know, “This isn't for me.” I started looking around. I had some pretty good, you know, exit options in-house or the US Attorney's office. I got interviews for both. I found things I didn't like about both. And then, there was also the government. And I found things I didn't like about that either. So then, I got this idea, “Why don't I just go out on my own?” And then, I found your podcast and I figured that there were other people doing this. So, I planned for about a year and a half. You know, saved a bunch of money to launch a firm. And that's what I did about four weeks ago - five weeks ago now.

Jim: That's awesome. So, what is it that you didn't like about Biglaw or about federal government work that made you think that going out on your own was more for you?

Andrew: Yeah.

So, I mean, in Biglaw, the whole model is basically bill your time, CYA, and, you know, just basically bide your time until someone else passes a book of business down to you. You might get lucky and go out and, you know, have a country club friend who is a big Fortune 500, you know, general counsel. But, for the most part, you're just going up the food chain, servicing other people until you finally get to that point, 15 years later, where you have equity and, now, you're only servicing your client instead of the people up the chain.

You know, I didn't like it because my future wasn't in my own hands, I felt like. I felt like, you know, I was always going to be dependent on someone else to feed me, to give me work and if that person decided that they no longer liked me, for whatever reason, then my career’s over. So, that's reason why I didn't really want to stick with big law. And then, the work’s not that fun. It’s kind of boring. And, you know, it's long and stressful and it's hard.

With government, you know, I thought about being AUSA. That would have fit, you know, my DA aspirations and, you know, what I wanted to do before but then (1) you would have to put people in jail. I didn't really think about that until I applied for it. And then (2), you know, it's this government bureaucracy where you have to work with set schedule. You know, it's hard to move up. Everyone's kind of flat. And then, there's one person at the top who’s a director. And you could spend many years doing this. So, I didn't like that either.

And then, I saw everyone, in Maximum Lawyer, building their own firms. It seemed like the potential’s endless. You know, you could stay as a solo. Some people scaled to 80 people in their firm with, you know, hundreds of employees. And, you know, I thought that you could make your own destiny. And I thought that was pretty cool.

Tyson: It's a really good example of where the employee’s vision doesn't match the vision of the organization. You go in there and you think you've got these grand ideas about like, you know, justice and everything. And then, whenever you get into the machine, you're like, “Oh, my gosh. This is [inaudible 00:05:25].” So, which leads to my first question. It's a good segue. What is the vision you have for your firm?

Andrew: Yeah. I found a lot of time, in Biglaw, spinning my wheels. And the way you learn, in Biglaw, is that you go in, someone gives you an assignment, they give you no direction, and you figure it out because you're a smart person. And you do that enough times that you learn how to practice law. And it takes a long time. My vision’s to do the opposite where I create systems that teach associates how to practice law, you know, the right way. But I don't really believe that criticism and not being told thing is the best way to learn. I think a lot of people can do better with positive feedback and be told things directly.

And I also, you know, want to scale. I don't really want to stay small. So, that's, you know, part of my vision, to have employees and be successful like a lot of people in the group have been. 

And then, 10 years from now, ideally, all I'll be doing is taking depositions, going to trial, and managing the firm. That's my ultimate end goal.

Jim: Andrew, talk to us about how this seed of an idea, of going out on your own, really grew. How did you have that conversation with your spouse? And then, tell us about the day you decided to quit and then the day after you told them that you quit.

Andrew: Yeah, the seed grew probably about a year and a half ago. And, you know, it was always a conversation where my wife said-- she's also a lawyer. So, she said, “Okay, like keep looking into this but convince me.” So, every day, I would come back and, you know, I'd be like, “Well, I learned SEO today. Are you convinced?” “No.” “Like, how are you going to get referrals?” “Well, I've started networking with these people. Are you convinced?” “No. Where's your business plan?” So, every day, it was me bouncing things off of her and having to convince her until, eventually, she's like, “Okay. I think you might be ready. I'm still not 100% sure, but I think you might be ready.”

So, the day I quit-- yeah, it was like any other day almost. I called up the partner I was working with. You know, normally, when you're talking to a partner in big law, they say, “Hi.” You say, “Hello.” And then, they just start talking and telling you whatever you need to do. So, this time, I cut her off. I said, “I have to tell you something.” And I told her I was leaving. And she sounded absolutely shocked. You know, said some nice things, that I was a very good associate and she enjoyed working with me. And that was it.

And then, I sent emails to about 10 to 20 people. Called about 10 people and gave them my two weeks’ notice. And then, two weeks later, you know, I sent a firm-wide email and I got a lot of positive responses from about 80 to 100 people.

I mean, here's the secret. Like, in Biglaw, everyone wants to do what I just did, just no one wants to take the risk. There are a very few people-- like unless you're at the top of the food chain, you wish you had your own business and your own book of business.

So, everyone's very supportive. A lot of people said they will send me work. Some people started to try to go off on their own, actually. So, it's nice that I get to have some type of, you know, corporate work, to do the billable work. 

So, the next day, you know, I'm on my own. Luckily, I already had cases, you know, because I made a couple of contacts, actually, through the group, with a person in the group. She basically hooked me up with a bunch of Workers’ Comp lawyers in Philadelphia and I had cases going already. So, just like any other day, just back to work. 

Tyson: So, Andrew, I guarantee you that there are some Biglaw people listening to this right now and I want you to talk directly to them. And I want you to give them some advice on, you know, leaving-- if they're thinking about leaving Biglaw, I want you to give them some advice on what they should do and how they should do it.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.

So, number one, if you're in Biglaw, you probably have significant debt because the law school you went to likely cost a lot of money. Pay that down first. Pay it down aggressively. You know, get out of that hole.

Second, after you do that, you know, be smart. Save your money because it's going to cost you money to start a firm. If you're taking clients with you, you're doing billable work, you need less of a runway. If you're switching to contingency for the first time, you're going to need a lot more of a runway as far as savings goes. So, do those two things first.

And then, start reading about marketing, selling, networking because you likely don't have those skills at all. You've probably learned how to practice law, but you’ve learned nothing about how to market yourself and sell yourself. Then, you also need to start, you know, reading business books. You probably know nothing about that as well.

And then, lastly, after you’ve done all those things, I would just say do it, if you want to. It's been a lot easier than I thought it would be and people told me it would be. So, I think there are some things, in Biglaw, that prepare you to do this and you should consider it if you want to get out of that, you know, rat race and you don't want to just go in-house and work nine to five for the rest of your life for an in-house company.

Jim: Andrew, like you, I'm also married to a lawyer and she's a 9 factfinder. So, when I wanted to go out on my own, I had to go through that same year-and-a-half gauntlet of trying to convince her that I was ready. She wanted me to have a business plan. I wonder, what percentage of all that work you did, during that year and a half, where you were getting ready and trying to appease her actually came in handy and how much of it was stuff that you probably didn't really need to know and then you learn how things really worked after you started? 

Andrew: Jim, I mean, I am only a few weeks out. I'm not presumptuous enough to think that like I know enough to know that yet, the latter part of your question. But, so far, it's all been extremely relevant and helpful because there's so much to learn and so much that, you know, is out there as far as knowledge goes that, you know, really, if you just keep learning for a year and a half, you still won't learn like half of what you could possibly know. And then, you start learning new things like new groups, new people, new networks to get in involved in. So, really, in the end, I mean, the learning process never stops. And it's all been helpful so far.

Tyson: I've got an interesting question. I want you to visualize the firm that you want to build out, let's say 5 to 10 years into the future. What do you want that to look like? What people do you need to have in place? What resources do you think you need to have in place? 

Andrew: Absolutely.

So, the firm would have at least three to five lawyers, but they will probably be the least important part. You know, it would have an intake team that specializes in that, that’s very good at that job. It would have, you know, paralegals who are very good at supporting all the lawyers but they're more of a permanent fixture because lawyers can come and go, you know, depending on their career aspirations. And I would encourage them to come and go. And I would encourage them to, you know, go get business and, you know, try to be a rainmaker themselves. And, if they want to, try to start their own thing.

And then, you know, there would be me kind of at the top with my wife. My ultimate goal is to bring my wife to my firm. You know, I won't say it too loudly but, you know, she’s doing really well right now at her big firm, so I might not be able to convince her. She may, you know, stick on that path and really enjoy it.

And then, I really want to be heavily leveraged on SEO, internet marketing, that type of thing. I really enjoy that. And I enjoy the possibilities that come with that way of getting business because I always still feel like I'm always skeptical and maybe wrongly so of someone who I have a relationship with just because I've seen that change in Biglaw, like one minute someone's sending you work and, the next minute, her cousin comes on board and they decided that person’s who they want to send work to. So yeah, I still want to go out and get referrals and that type of stuff but, you know, I always want to diversify. And I would love to have a big market share with SEO in the market.

Jim: Running your own practice can be scary. Whether you're worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you're losing control of your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.

Tyson: Maximum Lawyer in Minimum Time is a step-by-step playbook that shows you how to identify what your firm needs and how to proactively get it at every stage of the game so you're prepped and excited for the inevitable growth that will follow. Name the lifestyle that you want and we'll show you how to become a maximum lawyer in minimum time. Find out more by going to maximumlawyer.com/course.

Jim: You're listening to the Maximum Lawyer Podcast with Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux. Our guest today is Andrew Lacy. He's an employment lawyer. Started his own firm about four or five weeks ago in the City of Brotherly Love.

Andrew, you said something interesting there that I really wanted to pick up on and that is that you said you wanted your paralegals to be fixtures in your firm because lawyers come and go. I think that's a great insight, especially for someone who's just gone on their own and someone who's seen how attorneys work in Biglaw and how paralegals work in big law. I'm wondering, where did you get that concept and why do you think that's so important?

Andrew: You know, actually, it was in the Facebook group when I first heard it. And then, I thought about it. And, even in Biglaw, right, the paralegals are there or have been there for 25, you know, 30 years. They make their career there. And there's some really good ones. And a lot of the things we do, taking the ego out of it, right, you don't need a law degree for most of it, and if someone is willing to, you know, roll up their sleeves and really learn, especially over a long period of time, I think that they can learn enough to make my job very easy to where I'm, you know, going to trial, taking depositions, and maybe getting involved with dispositive motions but there's a lot of things, you know, in between that that they could do. And, if they're doing that well, you know, they're going to want to stay if I'm able to make them happy. They're not going to look for another job if I'm paying them pretty well at a fair market rate. 

Another attorney-- I would hope, I'm hiring an attorney that wants to do something bigger and better than me. You know, that's the person I want working for me. And I know that will only be aligned for so long but then I want to go out on the next person because they see that people who came in my firm and were successful after. So, I think that there is a good thing about encouraging your staff and your attorneys to be the best they can be.

Tyson: Jim, like you, like I was struck by that, too. I guess, where do you think that comes from, when it comes to-- because like, to me, like my biggest fear, whenever I had my first associate was like that person was going to leave, right? And I knew, whenever I joined my first firm, like I was going to go at some point, like it was just going to happen. And there is a lot of-- I mean, you do-- I mean, you lose-- there’s big cost to losing people. I guess, where do you think that mindset comes from, with you being okay with people basically coming and going? 

Andrew: You know, I think that people should do what makes them happy. And, you know, I never felt beholden to a single employer. Maybe it's, you know, my generation. Maybe I just accept that that's the cost of doing business.

But I kind of think that, if I'm getting someone who wants to stay for their whole entire career, for the most part, they're not very ambitious. They don't want to try something else. They don't want to take a risk. And I think that they're not going to be as good of a lawyer as someone who is always thinking about what's next and thinking about something bigger, better, wants to try cases, wants the challenge, wants the risk. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, you know, I'm just hiring people that want to leave and screw me and take all my clients. And, you know, I understand that thought too.

Tyson: Jim, can I jump in real quick because I want to ask you your thoughts, because I know that you're big into Kolbe? I just wonder if that is the right mindset. And maybe there's not a right answer here. But like just what are your thoughts on, you know, hiring lawyers and being okay with them coming and going? I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.

Jim: Well, I'm struck by the fact that our mutual hero, John Simon, would always say to me, whenever someone came to him and said they were leaving, he would say, “Andrew, God bless you. I wish you all the best of luck and thank you for your years of service to our firm.” And I think, I mean, especially now, in 2021, when things are so fluid and it's so easy for people to move around. I think we just have to be grateful for the time that we spent together. And like Andrew said, I don't know that I would want to actively build people up to leave but I'd certainly view it as a badge of honor if other people go out.

But the thing is, you know, I've told this story before about my father. My father has an architectural and engineering firm that he built from three people. He built it up to about 150 people when he retired. And he opened up offices in Philadelphia, and Dallas, and Chicago. And I said to him one day, “Dad, aren't you worried that one of those offices is just going to break off and start their own thing?” And he said, “God damn it, Jimmy. They're not built like us. They're not built like us.”

And especially with Kolbe, most lawyers are risk averse. Most attorneys are high fact finders. They don't want to go out on their own. The reason we have this tribe in Maximum Lawyer is because we're the one off’s. We're the oddball lawyer law firm owners who also want to own a business and to think entrepreneurially like Andrew and Tyson and I have. That's the thing. We're unusual for our practice niche.

Andrew: Yeah. 

Tyson: I think you're right about that.

Andrew, I guess, what are your thoughts on that?

Andrew: Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I mean, I tried to go door-to-door convincing someone to partner with me first. I have talked with some people in Biglaw. I gave them my business plan. I said, “This is exactly how we're going to do it.” Everyone turned me down and looked at me like I was crazy. And a lot of what I said to them has come true already. And it's actually been better than I expected. And, you know, there's a small possibility that I'll do better than I did in Biglaw. And a few people who have done that, worked in Biglaw and went and started their own thing, have done better. And, definitely, in the work-life balance perspective.

So, yeah. Again, I'd go back to it like, if someone wants to go out and do this thing, best of luck. It's hard. It's a risk. I don't think there's too many people who want to do it. And that's just kind of the cost of doing business.

I'll add this too. If I build someone up and I gave them every tool to succeed. I go out and I teach them how to get business. I give them their own book. They're making more money with me than anyone else. And then, they leave to start their own thing after that. I think that person will be eternally grateful for the rest of their life and still refer me stuff and go out of their way, when they meet people, to tell them how great I am because I built them up. I built them for success. And I think people generally reciprocate.

Jim: I think the last few years have also demonstrated this myth of stability. People think, “If I work at Biglaw, they'll never cut me loose.” Oh, well, COVID happened. Oh, COVID happened. Did you see what happened to all those firms? Or, you know, there's a recession, oh, you know.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. So, I think that we have the greatest stability. You know, my wife was at SLU and they had to cut $5 million worth of salary. So, we took a buyout and she came to work with me. So, that's that myth of stability.

So, Andrew, we’ve got to start wrapping up here pretty soon but talk to us about, you know, what have you done in the last four weeks? What have you started to build out? What did you focus on first and sort of what's next in the next, say, three months?

Andrew: Yeah. The first thing I focused on was SEO. That's been a year in the making. I started writing content a year ago. If you look at my website, I probably have like 60,000 words of content. And things are already starting to rank in, you know, my markets which are Pittsburgh and Philly. So, that was number one.

Number two, I made a couple of contacts with some Workers’ Comp attorneys who have been very kind and have sent me cases. So, that's number two. And one’s a member of Maximum Lawyer and she's been fantastic. You know, I am eternally grateful for her for getting me started with a few cases.

Then, there's been social media. What I've been doing has worked really well as I'll just pop in and out of places and drop free legal information about employment law, sometimes on my feed, sometimes a Facebook group, whatever. And then, a lot of times people will just DM me and say, “Hey, I was fired, you know. Can you take a look at my case?” So, I've gotten probably two reviews on Google from that and probably one and a half cases. I still have an engagement letter outstanding.

So, I mean, you combine all that together, I probably have like 15 to 20-ish cases already, in four to five weeks, you know. I think a typical case load for an employment attorney is 60. Some of those are probably, you know, some cases I shouldn't have taken because, you know, I thought, “Maybe I'll be slow, I'll just take this case and--“ But, anyway, you know, I'm plenty busy. And, you know, I'm getting to the point where I'm actually a lot more selective in my cases, already, which is nice. And that's pretty much been in it in a nutshell.

So, other than that, you know, doing legal work that you have to do well for your clients.

Tyson: So, I do want to get into a little bit because I think we waited a little bit to get into some of the details here, but I want to get into a little bit of your tech stack and talk a little bit about what you use right now. So, will you talk about that a little bit as to what you're using now when it comes to handling your files?

Andrew: Yeah. Right now, I am just using Gdrive, integrated with Todoist, integrated with Copper CRM. And then, you know, I have Zapier do some stuff. I’ve held off on of my case management system. I really like the multiple integrations with Gdrive so far. And I wasn't that impressed with Clio because, actually, it didn't have some things I wanted like the ability to auto-assign emails to a particular client. You know, I'll probably circle back and look at some of that stuff later. But that's been, unfortunately, probably just like on the lower end of my priority list. Right now I've been focusing mostly on getting work and building up some of my marketing stuff.

Jim: Awesome. Well, this has been a great call. I think that we're really lucky to have you on the show. The one question I had left for you, Andrew, I know that you have big dreams as an African-American male lawyer. In our group, we have a surprising number of African-American female lawyers, but we don't have that many African-American male lawyers. What are you going to do with your practice to sort of tap into that status of yours?

Andrew: Yeah, that's a good question. I get a lot of cases in the civil rights arena because, you know, I'm really the only-- well, I take that back. I mean, there's, obviously, Lee Merritt in Philadelphia who's, you know, doing fantastic things all over the country. But there's less than probably five, you know, black male lawyers who are probably actively marketing themselves. 

So, I'm fortunate to get the cases. But I'm also more fortunate to do the intake because I think, as a minority, sometimes I just see something different in the intake on some of these cases. And I think there's a big problem in the employment sphere, in the civil rights sphere, with African-American plaintiffs trying to get representation. It happens all the time. I see a lot of pro se plaintiffs in this arena.

So, I think just one more person to take a look, give it a second look, find a referral, you know, beat down the door for someone and say, “Listen, like this is a good one. It's not for me, but I think it should be for you.“ You know, that's the platform I'm trying to use right now.

Tyson: I think that that's one sad, but I think it's kind of awesome that you're looking at it from that perspective. It's kind of like a superpower that you're able to see it from a different perspective, so I think that that's really awesome. It's sad that it's got to be that way, but I think it's pretty awesome that you're able to see it from that perspective, so kudos to you. 

We do need to wrap things up, unfortunately. Before we do, I want to remind everyone, go to the Facebook group, the big group. Get involved there. We have a lot of great activity every single day.

If you want to join us in The Guild, go to maxlawguild.com. Check out the details there. Just a lot of high-level information, a lot of high level just discussions on a daily basis in that group. And, if you don't mind, while you're listening to the final few minutes of this podcast, give us a five-star review. We would greatly appreciate it.

Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?

Jim: Dan Kennedy has a book called The New Psycho-Cybernetics. It's based off some teachings of this sort of woowoo doctor, Dr. Maxwell Maltz, from back in the ‘70s or the ‘80s. And I did the audio version which is cool because Dan reads it and then he plays in little clips of Dr. Maltz. It's a little bit out there. Maybe it's way out there but you know I like that stuff. 

Anyway, he has this concept that I used to think was really screwy. Before you go to bed, give yourself a mental problem that you've been thinking about and see if your mind can work it out in the morning. And then, when you wake up, don't just jump out of bed but sit there for a minute and see what you can grab.

And so, I have this big problem that I've been working on. The US attorneys in Washington DC have sort of decided to fight me differently on my mandamus lawsuits. And I have literally sat there, as I've woken up for the last four or five days, and I've gotten little pieces of things and I've been able to sort out the forest for the trees because I was sort of all caught up in, “Oh, those bastards are filing these motions.” But then, when I sat back and watched what was really going on, I was able to put it all together because my mind had rested and I was able to sort of see that picture. So, I would encourage you to try it to just try to get-- and you can start with like little problems. And it sounds really crazy but actually it can work.

Tyson: I think that those waking minutes are so important. I agree with you 100%, just being able to sit there and think about things. I have solved so many problems just by sitting there and thinking. And I wouldn't have thought about it during the day because like it's just everything's high paced and stressful. You're right. And it's that calmness. You're able to think things through. I think that that's perfect.

All right, Andrew. So, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. Do you have one for us?

Andrew: Yeah, sure.

I would just say put out some free legal information in social media. It's been really helpful for me. I've gotten Google reviews and clients. It might help you too.

Tyson: Love it. Very good stuff.

So, my tip of the week is we do a lot of our training with clients. And so, for example, is a depo training. And we do that. There's basically Zapier, Filevine, Infusionsoft, and Google Forms. What we're tinkering with is moving that over to like an online course platform. And so, we have been testing out Mighty Networks. And I really like it. It's got an app and it's kind of gamified. It's actually really good. So, we're testing that out. From what I can tell, so far, I really like it. So, check it out. It's cheaper than platforms like Kajabi and other ones. So, it's actually pretty good. Check it out.

All right. Andrew, thank you so much for coming on and spending time with us. We really, really appreciate it.

Andrew: Appreciate it.

Tyson: Thanks, Andrew.

See you, Jimmy.

Jim: Thanks, bud. Bye, guys.

Andrew: Bye.

Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.

Have a great week and catch you next time.

[music]

Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson: I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?

Jim: Oh, Tyson, we're in that stage of life where hope springs eternal. Baseball is about to start. Yadier threw out a guy that he dared to steal on him yesterday in spring training. The sun is out. The grass is starting to turn green. Life is good.

Tyson: Yadier’s still got it, baby. He’s still got it. He's over the other side of the rainbow when it comes to his career but he's still got it, man. Still got it.

All right, let's rock and roll, man. Do you want to introduce our guest?

Jim: Yeah. So, our guest today is Andrew Lacy. He's the owner and founder of the Lacy Employment Law Firm. Before that, he worked for a Am Law 100 law firm called Reed Smith. He also had a federal clerkship with a judge in the Western District of Pennsylvania. He's an alum of Cornell Law School. And we are very excited to have him on the show.

Andrew, thanks for being with us.

Andrew: Thanks, Jim. Happy to be here.

Tyson: So, Andrew, tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are now.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.

So, I went up to upstate New York to go to law school at Cornell. And, when I got there, it was kind of a culture shock because I grew up my whole entire life playing sports and football. And then, I get there and there's all these people with Mercedes Benz’s and rich parents talking about going to these prestigious firms in New York. So, I kind of went up there thinking I'd be more of a DA, PD type of thing, a trial lawyer. And then, everyone was doing this. Everyone was going into Biglaw.

So, I decided to go back to my hometown of Pittsburgh and give that a shot. So, I worked at Reed Smith for a couple of years. Then, I did a clerkship with a Reed Smith alumnus, I'm sorry, in the Western District. And then, my wife decided that we should move to Philadelphia because Pittsburgh was, you know, too small and she wanted a bigger city and to be closer to New York.

So, I worked at Reed Smith for two and a half more years. The whole time I'm there, I just thought, you know, “This isn't for me.” I started looking around. I had some pretty good, you know, exit options in-house or the US Attorney's office. I got interviews for both. I found things I didn't like about both. And then, there was also the government. And I found things I didn't like about that either. So then, I got this idea, “Why don't I just go out on my own?” And then, I found your podcast and I figured that there were other people doing this. So, I planned for about a year and a half. You know, saved a bunch of money to launch a firm. And that's what I did about four weeks ago - five weeks ago now.

Jim: That's awesome. So, what is it that you didn't like about Biglaw or about federal government work that made you think that going out on your own was more for you?

Andrew: Yeah.

So, I mean, in Biglaw, the whole model is basically bill your time, CYA, and, you know, just basically bide your time until someone else passes a book of business down to you. You might get lucky and go out and, you know, have a country club friend who is a big Fortune 500, you know, general counsel. But, for the most part, you're just going up the food chain, servicing other people until you finally get to that point, 15 years later, where you have equity and, now, you're only servicing your client instead of the people up the chain.

You know, I didn't like it because my future wasn't in my own hands, I felt like. I felt like, you know, I was always going to be dependent on someone else to feed me, to give me work and if that person decided that they no longer liked me, for whatever reason, then my career’s over. So, that's reason why I didn't really want to stick with big law. And then, the work’s not that fun. It’s kind of boring. And, you know, it's long and stressful and it's hard.

With government, you know, I thought about being AUSA. That would have fit, you know, my DA aspirations and, you know, what I wanted to do before but then (1) you would have to put people in jail. I didn't really think about that until I applied for it. And then (2), you know, it's this government bureaucracy where you have to work with set schedule. You know, it's hard to move up. Everyone's kind of flat. And then, there's one person at the top who’s a director. And you could spend many years doing this. So, I didn't like that either.

And then, I saw everyone, in Maximum Lawyer, building their own firms. It seemed like the potential’s endless. You know, you could stay as a solo. Some people scaled to 80 people in their firm with, you know, hundreds of employees. And, you know, I thought that you could make your own destiny. And I thought that was pretty cool.

Tyson: It's a really good example of where the employee’s vision doesn't match the vision of the organization. You go in there and you think you've got these grand ideas about like, you know, justice and everything. And then, whenever you get into the machine, you're like, “Oh, my gosh. This is [inaudible 00:05:25].” So, which leads to my first question. It's a good segue. What is the vision you have for your firm?

Andrew: Yeah. I found a lot of time, in Biglaw, spinning my wheels. And the way you learn, in Biglaw, is that you go in, someone gives you an assignment, they give you no direction, and you figure it out because you're a smart person. And you do that enough times that you learn how to practice law. And it takes a long time. My vision’s to do the opposite where I create systems that teach associates how to practice law, you know, the right way. But I don't really believe that criticism and not being told thing is the best way to learn. I think a lot of people can do better with positive feedback and be told things directly.

And I also, you know, want to scale. I don't really want to stay small. So, that's, you know, part of my vision, to have employees and be successful like a lot of people in the group have been. 

And then, 10 years from now, ideally, all I'll be doing is taking depositions, going to trial, and managing the firm. That's my ultimate end goal.

Jim: Andrew, talk to us about how this seed of an idea, of going out on your own, really grew. How did you have that conversation with your spouse? And then, tell us about the day you decided to quit and then the day after you told them that you quit.

Andrew: Yeah, the seed grew probably about a year and a half ago. And, you know, it was always a conversation where my wife said-- she's also a lawyer. So, she said, “Okay, like keep looking into this but convince me.” So, every day, I would come back and, you know, I'd be like, “Well, I learned SEO today. Are you convinced?” “No.” “Like, how are you going to get referrals?” “Well, I've started networking with these people. Are you convinced?” “No. Where's your business plan?” So, every day, it was me bouncing things off of her and having to convince her until, eventually, she's like, “Okay. I think you might be ready. I'm still not 100% sure, but I think you might be ready.”

So, the day I quit-- yeah, it was like any other day almost. I called up the partner I was working with. You know, normally, when you're talking to a partner in big law, they say, “Hi.” You say, “Hello.” And then, they just start talking and telling you whatever you need to do. So, this time, I cut her off. I said, “I have to tell you something.” And I told her I was leaving. And she sounded absolutely shocked. You know, said some nice things, that I was a very good associate and she enjoyed working with me. And that was it.

And then, I sent emails to about 10 to 20 people. Called about 10 people and gave them my two weeks’ notice. And then, two weeks later, you know, I sent a firm-wide email and I got a lot of positive responses from about 80 to 100 people.

I mean, here's the secret. Like, in Biglaw, everyone wants to do what I just did, just no one wants to take the risk. There are a very few people-- like unless you're at the top of the food chain, you wish you had your own business and your own book of business.

So, everyone's very supportive. A lot of people said they will send me work. Some people started to try to go off on their own, actually. So, it's nice that I get to have some type of, you know, corporate work, to do the billable work. 

So, the next day, you know, I'm on my own. Luckily, I already had cases, you know, because I made a couple of contacts, actually, through the group, with a person in the group. She basically hooked me up with a bunch of Workers’ Comp lawyers in Philadelphia and I had cases going already. So, just like any other day, just back to work. 

Tyson: So, Andrew, I guarantee you that there are some Biglaw people listening to this right now and I want you to talk directly to them. And I want you to give them some advice on, you know, leaving-- if they're thinking about leaving Biglaw, I want you to give them some advice on what they should do and how they should do it.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.

So, number one, if you're in Biglaw, you probably have significant debt because the law school you went to likely cost a lot of money. Pay that down first. Pay it down aggressively. You know, get out of that hole.

Second, after you do that, you know, be smart. Save your money because it's going to cost you money to start a firm. If you're taking clients with you, you're doing billable work, you need less of a runway. If you're switching to contingency for the first time, you're going to need a lot more of a runway as far as savings goes. So, do those two things first.

And then, start reading about marketing, selling, networking because you likely don't have those skills at all. You've probably learned how to practice law, but you’ve learned nothing about how to market yourself and sell yourself. Then, you also need to start, you know, reading business books. You probably know nothing about that as well.

And then, lastly, after you’ve done all those things, I would just say do it, if you want to. It's been a lot easier than I thought it would be and people told me it would be. So, I think there are some things, in Biglaw, that prepare you to do this and you should consider it if you want to get out of that, you know, rat race and you don't want to just go in-house and work nine to five for the rest of your life for an in-house company.

Jim: Andrew, like you, I'm also married to a lawyer and she's a 9 factfinder. So, when I wanted to go out on my own, I had to go through that same year-and-a-half gauntlet of trying to convince her that I was ready. She wanted me to have a business plan. I wonder, what percentage of all that work you did, during that year and a half, where you were getting ready and trying to appease her actually came in handy and how much of it was stuff that you probably didn't really need to know and then you learn how things really worked after you started? 

Andrew: Jim, I mean, I am only a few weeks out. I'm not presumptuous enough to think that like I know enough to know that yet, the latter part of your question. But, so far, it's all been extremely relevant and helpful because there's so much to learn and so much that, you know, is out there as far as knowledge goes that, you know, really, if you just keep learning for a year and a half, you still won't learn like half of what you could possibly know. And then, you start learning new things like new groups, new people, new networks to get in involved in. So, really, in the end, I mean, the learning process never stops. And it's all been helpful so far.

Tyson: I've got an interesting question. I want you to visualize the firm that you want to build out, let's say 5 to 10 years into the future. What do you want that to look like? What people do you need to have in place? What resources do you think you need to have in place? 

Andrew: Absolutely.

So, the firm would have at least three to five lawyers, but they will probably be the least important part. You know, it would have an intake team that specializes in that, that’s very good at that job. It would have, you know, paralegals who are very good at supporting all the lawyers but they're more of a permanent fixture because lawyers can come and go, you know, depending on their career aspirations. And I would encourage them to come and go. And I would encourage them to, you know, go get business and, you know, try to be a rainmaker themselves. And, if they want to, try to start their own thing.

And then, you know, there would be me kind of at the top with my wife. My ultimate goal is to bring my wife to my firm. You know, I won't say it too loudly but, you know, she’s doing really well right now at her big firm, so I might not be able to convince her. She may, you know, stick on that path and really enjoy it.

And then, I really want to be heavily leveraged on SEO, internet marketing, that type of thing. I really enjoy that. And I enjoy the possibilities that come with that way of getting business because I always still feel like I'm always skeptical and maybe wrongly so of someone who I have a relationship with just because I've seen that change in Biglaw, like one minute someone's sending you work and, the next minute, her cousin comes on board and they decided that person’s who they want to send work to. So yeah, I still want to go out and get referrals and that type of stuff but, you know, I always want to diversify. And I would love to have a big market share with SEO in the market.

Jim: Running your own practice can be scary. Whether you're worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you're losing control of your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.

Tyson: Maximum Lawyer in Minimum Time is a step-by-step playbook that shows you how to identify what your firm needs and how to proactively get it at every stage of the game so you're prepped and excited for the inevitable growth that will follow. Name the lifestyle that you want and we'll show you how to become a maximum lawyer in minimum time. Find out more by going to maximumlawyer.com/course.

Jim: You're listening to the Maximum Lawyer Podcast with Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux. Our guest today is Andrew Lacy. He's an employment lawyer. Started his own firm about four or five weeks ago in the City of Brotherly Love.

Andrew, you said something interesting there that I really wanted to pick up on and that is that you said you wanted your paralegals to be fixtures in your firm because lawyers come and go. I think that's a great insight, especially for someone who's just gone on their own and someone who's seen how attorneys work in Biglaw and how paralegals work in big law. I'm wondering, where did you get that concept and why do you think that's so important?

Andrew: You know, actually, it was in the Facebook group when I first heard it. And then, I thought about it. And, even in Biglaw, right, the paralegals are there or have been there for 25, you know, 30 years. They make their career there. And there's some really good ones. And a lot of the things we do, taking the ego out of it, right, you don't need a law degree for most of it, and if someone is willing to, you know, roll up their sleeves and really learn, especially over a long period of time, I think that they can learn enough to make my job very easy to where I'm, you know, going to trial, taking depositions, and maybe getting involved with dispositive motions but there's a lot of things, you know, in between that that they could do. And, if they're doing that well, you know, they're going to want to stay if I'm able to make them happy. They're not going to look for another job if I'm paying them pretty well at a fair market rate. 

Another attorney-- I would hope, I'm hiring an attorney that wants to do something bigger and better than me. You know, that's the person I want working for me. And I know that will only be aligned for so long but then I want to go out on the next person because they see that people who came in my firm and were successful after. So, I think that there is a good thing about encouraging your staff and your attorneys to be the best they can be.

Tyson: Jim, like you, like I was struck by that, too. I guess, where do you think that comes from, when it comes to-- because like, to me, like my biggest fear, whenever I had my first associate was like that person was going to leave, right? And I knew, whenever I joined my first firm, like I was going to go at some point, like it was just going to happen. And there is a lot of-- I mean, you do-- I mean, you lose-- there’s big cost to losing people. I guess, where do you think that mindset comes from, with you being okay with people basically coming and going? 

Andrew: You know, I think that people should do what makes them happy. And, you know, I never felt beholden to a single employer. Maybe it's, you know, my generation. Maybe I just accept that that's the cost of doing business.

But I kind of think that, if I'm getting someone who wants to stay for their whole entire career, for the most part, they're not very ambitious. They don't want to try something else. They don't want to take a risk. And I think that they're not going to be as good of a lawyer as someone who is always thinking about what's next and thinking about something bigger, better, wants to try cases, wants the challenge, wants the risk. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, you know, I'm just hiring people that want to leave and screw me and take all my clients. And, you know, I understand that thought too.

Tyson: Jim, can I jump in real quick because I want to ask you your thoughts, because I know that you're big into Kolbe? I just wonder if that is the right mindset. And maybe there's not a right answer here. But like just what are your thoughts on, you know, hiring lawyers and being okay with them coming and going? I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.

Jim: Well, I'm struck by the fact that our mutual hero, John Simon, would always say to me, whenever someone came to him and said they were leaving, he would say, “Andrew, God bless you. I wish you all the best of luck and thank you for your years of service to our firm.” And I think, I mean, especially now, in 2021, when things are so fluid and it's so easy for people to move around. I think we just have to be grateful for the time that we spent together. And like Andrew said, I don't know that I would want to actively build people up to leave but I'd certainly view it as a badge of honor if other people go out.

But the thing is, you know, I've told this story before about my father. My father has an architectural and engineering firm that he built from three people. He built it up to about 150 people when he retired. And he opened up offices in Philadelphia, and Dallas, and Chicago. And I said to him one day, “Dad, aren't you worried that one of those offices is just going to break off and start their own thing?” And he said, “God damn it, Jimmy. They're not built like us. They're not built like us.”

And especially with Kolbe, most lawyers are risk averse. Most attorneys are high fact finders. They don't want to go out on their own. The reason we have this tribe in Maximum Lawyer is because we're the one off’s. We're the oddball lawyer law firm owners who also want to own a business and to think entrepreneurially like Andrew and Tyson and I have. That's the thing. We're unusual for our practice niche.

Andrew: Yeah. 

Tyson: I think you're right about that.

Andrew, I guess, what are your thoughts on that?

Andrew: Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I mean, I tried to go door-to-door convincing someone to partner with me first. I have talked with some people in Biglaw. I gave them my business plan. I said, “This is exactly how we're going to do it.” Everyone turned me down and looked at me like I was crazy. And a lot of what I said to them has come true already. And it's actually been better than I expected. And, you know, there's a small possibility that I'll do better than I did in Biglaw. And a few people who have done that, worked in Biglaw and went and started their own thing, have done better. And, definitely, in the work-life balance perspective.

So, yeah. Again, I'd go back to it like, if someone wants to go out and do this thing, best of luck. It's hard. It's a risk. I don't think there's too many people who want to do it. And that's just kind of the cost of doing business.

I'll add this too. If I build someone up and I gave them every tool to succeed. I go out and I teach them how to get business. I give them their own book. They're making more money with me than anyone else. And then, they leave to start their own thing after that. I think that person will be eternally grateful for the rest of their life and still refer me stuff and go out of their way, when they meet people, to tell them how great I am because I built them up. I built them for success. And I think people generally reciprocate.

Jim: I think the last few years have also demonstrated this myth of stability. People think, “If I work at Biglaw, they'll never cut me loose.” Oh, well, COVID happened. Oh, COVID happened. Did you see what happened to all those firms? Or, you know, there's a recession, oh, you know.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. So, I think that we have the greatest stability. You know, my wife was at SLU and they had to cut $5 million worth of salary. So, we took a buyout and she came to work with me. So, that's that myth of stability.

So, Andrew, we’ve got to start wrapping up here pretty soon but talk to us about, you know, what have you done in the last four weeks? What have you started to build out? What did you focus on first and sort of what's next in the next, say, three months?

Andrew: Yeah. The first thing I focused on was SEO. That's been a year in the making. I started writing content a year ago. If you look at my website, I probably have like 60,000 words of content. And things are already starting to rank in, you know, my markets which are Pittsburgh and Philly. So, that was number one.

Number two, I made a couple of contacts with some Workers’ Comp attorneys who have been very kind and have sent me cases. So, that's number two. And one’s a member of Maximum Lawyer and she's been fantastic. You know, I am eternally grateful for her for getting me started with a few cases.

Then, there's been social media. What I've been doing has worked really well as I'll just pop in and out of places and drop free legal information about employment law, sometimes on my feed, sometimes a Facebook group, whatever. And then, a lot of times people will just DM me and say, “Hey, I was fired, you know. Can you take a look at my case?” So, I've gotten probably two reviews on Google from that and probably one and a half cases. I still have an engagement letter outstanding.

So, I mean, you combine all that together, I probably have like 15 to 20-ish cases already, in four to five weeks, you know. I think a typical case load for an employment attorney is 60. Some of those are probably, you know, some cases I shouldn't have taken because, you know, I thought, “Maybe I'll be slow, I'll just take this case and--“ But, anyway, you know, I'm plenty busy. And, you know, I'm getting to the point where I'm actually a lot more selective in my cases, already, which is nice. And that's pretty much been in it in a nutshell.

So, other than that, you know, doing legal work that you have to do well for your clients.

Tyson: So, I do want to get into a little bit because I think we waited a little bit to get into some of the details here, but I want to get into a little bit of your tech stack and talk a little bit about what you use right now. So, will you talk about that a little bit as to what you're using now when it comes to handling your files?

Andrew: Yeah. Right now, I am just using Gdrive, integrated with Todoist, integrated with Copper CRM. And then, you know, I have Zapier do some stuff. I’ve held off on of my case management system. I really like the multiple integrations with Gdrive so far. And I wasn't that impressed with Clio because, actually, it didn't have some things I wanted like the ability to auto-assign emails to a particular client. You know, I'll probably circle back and look at some of that stuff later. But that's been, unfortunately, probably just like on the lower end of my priority list. Right now I've been focusing mostly on getting work and building up some of my marketing stuff.

Jim: Awesome. Well, this has been a great call. I think that we're really lucky to have you on the show. The one question I had left for you, Andrew, I know that you have big dreams as an African-American male lawyer. In our group, we have a surprising number of African-American female lawyers, but we don't have that many African-American male lawyers. What are you going to do with your practice to sort of tap into that status of yours?

Andrew: Yeah, that's a good question. I get a lot of cases in the civil rights arena because, you know, I'm really the only-- well, I take that back. I mean, there's, obviously, Lee Merritt in Philadelphia who's, you know, doing fantastic things all over the country. But there's less than probably five, you know, black male lawyers who are probably actively marketing themselves. 

So, I'm fortunate to get the cases. But I'm also more fortunate to do the intake because I think, as a minority, sometimes I just see something different in the intake on some of these cases. And I think there's a big problem in the employment sphere, in the civil rights sphere, with African-American plaintiffs trying to get representation. It happens all the time. I see a lot of pro se plaintiffs in this arena.

So, I think just one more person to take a look, give it a second look, find a referral, you know, beat down the door for someone and say, “Listen, like this is a good one. It's not for me, but I think it should be for you.“ You know, that's the platform I'm trying to use right now.

Tyson: I think that that's one sad, but I think it's kind of awesome that you're looking at it from that perspective. It's kind of like a superpower that you're able to see it from a different perspective, so I think that that's really awesome. It's sad that it's got to be that way, but I think it's pretty awesome that you're able to see it from that perspective, so kudos to you. 

We do need to wrap things up, unfortunately. Before we do, I want to remind everyone, go to the Facebook group, the big group. Get involved there. We have a lot of great activity every single day.

If you want to join us in The Guild, go to maxlawguild.com. Check out the details there. Just a lot of high-level information, a lot of high level just discussions on a daily basis in that group. And, if you don't mind, while you're listening to the final few minutes of this podcast, give us a five-star review. We would greatly appreciate it.

Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?

Jim: Dan Kennedy has a book called The New Psycho-Cybernetics. It's based off some teachings of this sort of woowoo doctor, Dr. Maxwell Maltz, from back in the ‘70s or the ‘80s. And I did the audio version which is cool because Dan reads it and then he plays in little clips of Dr. Maltz. It's a little bit out there. Maybe it's way out there but you know I like that stuff. 

Anyway, he has this concept that I used to think was really screwy. Before you go to bed, give yourself a mental problem that you've been thinking about and see if your mind can work it out in the morning. And then, when you wake up, don't just jump out of bed but sit there for a minute and see what you can grab.

And so, I have this big problem that I've been working on. The US attorneys in Washington DC have sort of decided to fight me differently on my mandamus lawsuits. And I have literally sat there, as I've woken up for the last four or five days, and I've gotten little pieces of things and I've been able to sort out the forest for the trees because I was sort of all caught up in, “Oh, those bastards are filing these motions.” But then, when I sat back and watched what was really going on, I was able to put it all together because my mind had rested and I was able to sort of see that picture. So, I would encourage you to try it to just try to get-- and you can start with like little problems. And it sounds really crazy but actually it can work.

Tyson: I think that those waking minutes are so important. I agree with you 100%, just being able to sit there and think about things. I have solved so many problems just by sitting there and thinking. And I wouldn't have thought about it during the day because like it's just everything's high paced and stressful. You're right. And it's that calmness. You're able to think things through. I think that that's perfect.

All right, Andrew. So, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. Do you have one for us?

Andrew: Yeah, sure.

I would just say put out some free legal information in social media. It's been really helpful for me. I've gotten Google reviews and clients. It might help you too.

Tyson: Love it. Very good stuff.

So, my tip of the week is we do a lot of our training with clients. And so, for example, is a depo training. And we do that. There's basically Zapier, Filevine, Infusionsoft, and Google Forms. What we're tinkering with is moving that over to like an online course platform. And so, we have been testing out Mighty Networks. And I really like it. It's got an app and it's kind of gamified. It's actually really good. So, we're testing that out. From what I can tell, so far, I really like it. So, check it out. It's cheaper than platforms like Kajabi and other ones. So, it's actually pretty good. Check it out.

All right. Andrew, thank you so much for coming on and spending time with us. We really, really appreciate it.

Andrew: Appreciate it.

Tyson: Thanks, Andrew.

See you, Jimmy.

Jim: Thanks, bud. Bye, guys.

Andrew: Bye.

Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.

Have a great week and catch you next time.

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