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What if the best way to build a successful law firm is to stop doing things the way law firms have always done them?

In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, Tyson Mutrux is joined by Jonathan Merel, founder of Merel Family Law, for a wide-ranging conversation about technology, culture, leadership, and what it actually takes to grow a law firm.

Jonathan shares how he has built a 20+ lawyer family law firm by questioning some of the legal industry’s oldest assumptions. Tyson and Jonathan discuss the opportunities and ethical concerns surrounding AI, why law school still leaves lawyers unprepared for the business of law, and why grades and credentials do not necessarily predict who will become a great lawyer.

They also dig into Jonathan’s approach to building a firm people actually want to work for. From creating a modern office environment and investing in personal brands to hiring an in-house divorce coach, developing future leaders, and giving employees room to grow, Jonathan has intentionally built around the people inside the firm.

The goal isn’t simply to grow a bigger law firm. It’s to build a firm where great people can build great careers, clients receive a better experience, and the business can continue growing without losing the human element that made it successful in the first place.

What You’ll Learn

• How Jonathan is using AI without losing the human side of practicing law.
• Why law school may not prepare lawyers for the business of running a firm.
• Why personality, emotional intelligence, and business development can matter more than grades.
• How Jonathan built a stronger culture by doing things differently from the firm he left.
• Why investing in your people can become one of the biggest drivers of law firm growth.

Timestamps

00:00 — Using AI without losing the human side of law

08:46 — Why law school needs to teach the business of law

13:20 — What actually makes a great lawyer

29:24 — The bulldog vs. the fox in family law

33:02 — Leaving a firm to build something better

39:22 — Building a people-first law firm culture

42:44 — Why Jonathan hired an in-house divorce coach

63:22 — What still drives Jonathan after 17 years in business

Connect with Jonathan

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanmerel/

Website: https://merelfamilylaw.com/

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Full Transcript: 

Tyson Mutrux (00:00)
So Jonathan, you’re very tech-forward with your firm, which I think is kind of cool. It’s all over your website.

Tell me what you’re doing. I want to hear some of the things you’re doing that are pretty cool.

Jonathan Merel (00:18)
We’ve always tried to be progressive, whether it comes to tech or how we treat the attorney-client experience.

I’m always trying to push the envelope.

Obviously, AI is everywhere. We’re trying to stay on top of it, but also toe the line when it comes to what’s acceptable, ethical, and not ethical. That’s still a slippery slope.

When it comes to client management software, developing a modern law office with all the bells and whistles, and the technology available to us, we’re really just trying to stay on top of things because it’s such an ever-changing world.

AI is obviously a big part of the tech piece.

I’m doing webinars and trying to get to seminars all over the place just to stay on top of things. Especially with AI, you feel like you’re on top of it, and then you hear about something else it can do and think, holy shit, I didn’t even think of that.

It’s changing so quickly.

Tyson Mutrux (01:20)
Are you doing anything with AI that’s more client-facing, where they actually see it?

Jonathan Merel (01:27)
Not really.

At this point, we’re experimenting with different aspects of AI available through our client management software, getting clients in the door, marketing, and utilizing AI chatbots on our website.

But I’m a little hesitant to give it too much rope.

I still want to stick to our roots and continue developing what’s gotten us our success, which is the people who work with us, our attorneys, and our staff.

If you let go of those values too much, you can slip into this world of AI that is obviously efficient and super smart, but you start losing that human touch.

That’s at the center of the attorney-client relationship, and I never want to lose that.

Tyson Mutrux (02:20)
Do you bill by the hour, or is it flat fee?

Jonathan Merel (02:24)
We bill by the hour.

Tyson Mutrux (02:28)
Have you found AI allows you to bill more, or does it allow you to save clients money? Have you noticed any difference yet?

Jonathan Merel (02:38)
That’s the question.

It can certainly do things in a fraction of the time that humans can, but I still think you need humans to go through it and make sure it’s right.

I would never trust a review of someone’s bank accounts or a discovery production and just trust what the computer spits out without going through it ourselves.

Even if it’s drafting questions you would ask in a deposition or outlines to prepare for a trial or hearing, it’s a good thing to get you going.

But you still need the human element to review it and make sure it’s part of your own style.

Tyson Mutrux (03:35)
We’ve built AI into our process where it helps us answer discovery responses.

It can get you maybe 80% of the way there, but you still have to put your eyeballs on it because it’s not 100%.

For us, we’re PI, so we don’t bill by the hour. We need to move quickly.

I do wonder if billable-hour firms eventually switch to more of a flat-rate model because AI changes the equation.

If you can have something drafted via AI in 45 seconds that you normally would have billed 10 hours for, the model starts to shift.

Jonathan Merel (04:28)
Right.

Then the question becomes the ethical part of it.

At least in the counties where we practice, judges don’t want to be reading AI-generated stuff.

But can they even tell the difference?

AI has become so developed that you can tell it to write in your own writing style. It becomes almost impossible to decipher what’s truly AI, what was really done by the lawyer, and what’s a combination of both.

Something is going to have to change down the road.

But even if you can do something in a fraction of the time, you have two questions.

One, is that acceptable to clients when they’re paying you to do the work?

Two, even if you use AI, you can’t blindly sign something and file it with the court.

With litigation, you still have to get in front of a judge. You have to litigate. You have to cross-examine.

At least for now, I don’t think a robot can do that.

Hopefully we still have jobs.

Tyson Mutrux (05:45)
You just gave me an idea.

I’ve got a Claude skill that speaks in my voice. It’s more for drafting emails to clients and creating content.

Let’s say you’re a phenomenal writer and I want to steal your writing style.

I could take all of your pleadings that you’ve filed, scan them in, and theoretically I could write like you automatically.

Jonathan Merel (06:13)
A hundred percent.

You could create the Jonathan skill.

I’m sure it’s happening.

Tyson Mutrux (06:22)
What do you think about these attorneys getting in trouble because they’re filing motions with fake cases generated by AI?

Jonathan Merel (06:32)
I think it’s the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what could result from AI.

It’s a double-edged sword.

For saving time and being more productive, absolutely. It makes sense. It can do things we cannot do as humans.

But there’s a slippery slope because it’s not always perfect.

The one time it isn’t perfect, suddenly you’ve got bullshit citations or something else that gets you into trouble.

Then it becomes convenient to say, “Well, it wasn’t me. That’s just what got generated.”

You back yourself into a corner.

Like any advancement in technology, there are tons of benefits, but there are definitely concerns, especially ethically when you’re dealing with the law.

Tyson Mutrux (07:22)
We contract out some of our motion practice for overflow work.

Nothing has come up yet, but we had one case where I was furious because I thought there was a fake case in a motion.

I thought it was AI and I was ready to be done with them.

They were scrambling and eventually found the actual case. It was just some obscure case.

But part of our process now is that one of our attorneys checks every single case.

I don’t trust anybody.

We make sure every citation is a real case because it terrifies me.

Jonathan Merel (08:10)
You can get burned so badly.

It works both ways too.

You have to look at the cases the other side is citing because if something could turn a decision one way or another and the case doesn’t even exist, that’s a huge problem.

It’s definitely a new frontier.

Tyson Mutrux (08:46)
When we were going to law school, you were Shepardizing, looking through Westlaw, old statute books, casebooks, looking for the red flag, yellow flag, green flag.

I don’t even know how you teach some of that anymore.

How does AI change law school curriculum?

How should we design law schools now?

Jonathan Merel (09:10)
If anyone follows me on LinkedIn, they know I think law school is pretty much complete nonsense.

There are obviously some benefits to it, but my problem is the practicality of the curriculum.

I understand that you need to go through the gauntlet of law school and the bar exam to practice.

But I don’t understand why they’re still teaching so much about cases that are ancient history.

I understand that maybe that’s the basis of your knowledge and trains your brain to think like a lawyer.

But there’s almost no practical component outside of moot court, law review, or maybe drafting.

Nobody knows how to actually run a business.

Nobody teaches you how to develop a law firm or what law actually looks like in an office setting.

They teach you how to think like a lawyer, but not how to be a lawyer.

Tyson Mutrux (10:30)
What’s interesting is that if you look at the rankings, a lot of the schools that are more practical and skills-based are ranked lower.

The more theory-based schools tend to be ranked higher.

It’s almost like the whole system is built around theory instead of real-world experience.

Jonathan Merel (10:58)
Exactly.

I don’t understand how at least 40% of law school couldn’t be teaching you how law firms work and what it’s actually like to be in a law firm.

They’re certainly not teaching the business aspect of law.

Getting paid. Running a law firm. Creating a law firm.

Every student should be required to go through a class teaching you how to start a law firm and understand the business side of it.

Finance, hiring, marketing, all of these things should be part of the curriculum.

Tyson Mutrux (12:00)
We had law practice management.

My former co-host Jim Hacking was actually my professor. He was an adjunct.

Every week he brought in a different solo or small-firm attorney to teach a different aspect of running a firm.

It was brilliant because those are the people you actually want to learn from.

Jonathan Merel (12:28)
Exactly.

There should be so many different parts to it.

Finance. Starting the law firm. Hiring. Marketing.

Those things are barely on people’s radar when they become lawyers.

Tyson Mutrux (13:02)
I’ve heard rumblings that some law schools are shifting toward more hands-on, practical education.

But even if it’s remotely like what you and I went through, it’s so far behind what’s happening with AI right now.

Jonathan Merel (13:20)
I think the legal industry in general is behind the times.

It’s traditional. I understand that.

But it has to start adapting.

Tyson Mutrux (13:34)
You’ve also talked on LinkedIn about how much law school rankings and grades really matter.

What are your thoughts there?

Jonathan Merel (13:45)
When I hire, I’m not really looking at what law school someone went to or what their grades were.

People considering law school get stuck on, “I have to go to a great law school. I need a great LSAT score.”

I understand that’s how the world works, but I don’t necessarily think it translates into success as an attorney once you pass the bar.

If you’re a hustler, you work your ass off, you’re personable, you know how to get clients, network, and market, I’ll take that person who got Cs in law school over the straight-A student from Harvard who has been buried behind a computer and is scared to do anything.

Tyson Mutrux (14:42)
I completely agree.

But how do you interview for that?

Jonathan Merel (14:48)
It depends on the position.

With an entry-level person, you have to gauge how the interview goes and really get to know them.

I’d rather just talk with someone than ask all these standard, old-school interview questions.

What do they do for fun?

What’s their social life like?

Who are they as a person?

When you engage with someone like a person, you get a much better idea of how they’re going to act when they’re not just sitting behind a computer.

There’s so much more to practicing law than the actual law.

Jonathan Merel (15:35)
I tell the lawyers at my firm, “You are your own entity under the umbrella of Merel Family Law.”

Treat it that way.

I’ll give you the resources you need to market yourself and build your personal brand within our brand.

At the end of the day, that translates into success.

You want lawyers who can bring in business.

You want them to know how to talk to clients and potential clients.

That gets lost when all the focus is on where somebody went to law school and what their grades were.

Intelligence does not necessarily equate to being the best lawyer.

Tyson Mutrux (16:25)
Emotional intelligence is huge.

How do you balance them marketing themselves as their own entity inside the firm while also getting the work done?

Jonathan Merel (16:40)
It’s a balance.

A lot of networking happens outside regular office hours, but I encourage people in networking groups to use our office to host things.

We have a unique office setup with a bar, lounge area, and other spaces.

I created it with the vision of using it to connect people.

They can bring in referral sources, networking groups, charity events, board meetings.

We support people joining bar associations and charity boards.

We give them the tools to expand their network and ultimately turn that into business.

They obviously still have responsibilities as lawyers, but I incentivize them to bring in their own business.

They get a cut of cases they originate.

It all works together.

Tyson Mutrux (17:56)
I’m interested in your background because I’ve got a quote from you about not wanting to wear a boring tie and a boring suit and go into a boring office.

Your father was a criminal defense attorney, right?

Jonathan Merel (18:10)
My father was a criminal defense attorney, and my uncle was a lawyer.

I was surrounded by the law, but family law was never part of it.

I played the game for 20 years.

I was litigating, wearing a suit and tie, going to court every day.

I started my firm almost 18 years ago, but I always had a different vision.

Why does everything have to be so stuffy?

I understand courtroom etiquette. Court is a serious place and deserves respect. Judges deserve respect.

I’m not suggesting lawyers should walk into court in shorts and a T-shirt.

But especially in family law, lawyers sometimes take on this personality where they have to be incredibly intense and serious all the time.

There’s a time and place for that.

But you can relax a little in how you practice, how you meet clients, and how you create your office.

People encountering lawyers for the first time are already intimidated enough.

Clients appreciate it when you relax a little.

Employees appreciate it.

Prospective employees appreciate it.

Tyson Mutrux (20:10)
Do you have a dress code when clients come in?

Jonathan Merel (20:16)
Yes.

People still have to dress appropriately when clients are there or when they’re going to court.

But I’m not getting suited up as much as I used to.

I’ll wear a collared shirt or a jacket.

Years ago, there wasn’t even a question. I was in a suit and tie.

I don’t know that clients really care anymore.

Everything has become more relaxed.

The clothing itself has changed too. You can wear a nice performance shirt, pants, or a jacket and still look presentable.

It doesn’t have to be the stuffy old suit, tie, and shiny shoes every day.

Society has changed, and I think law has changed with it.

Tyson Mutrux (21:30)
Why didn’t you go the criminal defense route?

Jonathan Merel (21:35)
I never had an interest in it.

Honestly, I didn’t even know if I wanted to be a lawyer.

I was finishing school in Madison and didn’t know what I wanted to do. I thought law school could be a stepping stone.

Growing up, we had phones ringing all night from the jail. There were calls at two in the morning with bail bondsmen and everything else.

During my first year of law school, I got a job as a law clerk at a family law firm.

It just clicked.

I didn’t want to do something transactional or repetitive.

I love interacting with people. I’m social.

I liked helping people get out of shitty situations, helping people who were being abused, and hearing these crazy stories.

It keeps you interested.

It’s never dull.

That was my first legal job, and it’s basically all I’ve known since.

Tyson Mutrux (22:45)
Where did you go to law school?

Jonathan Merel (22:49)
Chicago-Kent.

Tyson Mutrux (22:53)
I was wondering if you went to Wisconsin because if you graduate there and practice in Wisconsin, you don’t have to take the bar exam.

That’s a pretty damn good perk.

Jonathan Merel (23:02)
It’s insane.

I’ll never forget how miserable that summer studying for the bar was.

My friends were out having the best time, and I was studying constantly.

Tyson Mutrux (23:28)
Did you do Barbri back then?

Jonathan Merel (23:31)
Yes.

Richard Conviser, one of the people behind Barbri, was actually my professor.

Back then, you had to physically go in the morning and then study in the afternoon.

I can’t imagine doing it entirely online at your own pace.

I needed the regimen.

Tyson Mutrux (24:10)
Same.

I don’t know if I could sit down and do another test like that now.

The bar exam itself is changing too.

You’ve got the Uniform Bar Exam, and now states are starting to adopt the NextGen exam.

The whole profession is changing.

Tyson Mutrux (25:00)
You’re in Chicago, which is a massive market.

How do you differentiate yourself?

Jonathan Merel (25:09)
You have to distinguish yourself.

Chicago is a huge city, but in some ways it feels like a small community.

People know each other.

If you do good work, market yourself the right way, and continue to build, you develop a reputation.

There are probably only a handful of family law firms in Chicago with 20 or more lawyers.

Once you become one of those, you’re at the top of the game in that market.

Family law itself is a pretty small community.

Your reputation matters with clients, but it also matters with other attorneys and judges.

If you’re new to it, you have to learn the ropes and establish yourself.

Tyson Mutrux (29:24)
Let me ask you a loaded question.

If you need to hire a divorce attorney, do you want the bulldog or do you want the fox?

Jonathan Merel (29:34)
I think you need the perfect combination of both.

You want someone who can be aggressive, but who uses that aggression to get you into a position to settle your case.

If you hire a bulldog who just runs through every wall and turns your divorce into World War III, they’re not really helping you.

They’re costing you more money.

There are sensitive issues involving children.

You can piss off judges.

There’s a time and place to be the biggest asshole out there. We can all do that.

But you have to do it for a purpose.

You do it when it furthers your client’s interests.

Creating more issues, more messes, more fees, more stress, and more time just for the sake of being aggressive doesn’t help anyone.

Tyson Mutrux (30:42)
Clients sometimes come in wanting that bulldog.

How do you set expectations at the beginning so it doesn’t become a problem later?

Jonathan Merel (30:52)
I’m a straight shooter.

I tell them how it is.

If they don’t like what I have to say, fine.

I can be the biggest asshole you’ve ever met if I need to be, but I’m only going to use that when it benefits you.

I like the phrase “tactically aggressive.”

I can get super aggressive and use it to hopefully put your case in a position where it settles on favorable terms instead of going to trial, wasting tons of money, and having a stranger make decisions about your life.

Sometimes people want a lawyer who will just tell them what they want to hear.

I’ve had people come in where somebody is clearly going to pay alimony for the next 20 years.

Their spouse hasn’t worked in 20 years. They’re making millions of dollars.

I’m going to tell them, “You’re paying alimony. I’m sorry.”

They can go find another lawyer who says, “I’ll make sure you never pay alimony.”

They’re full of shit.

There are plenty of lawyers who overpromise and underdeliver.

At the end, the client walks away thinking, “I should have listened to the guy who told me the truth.”

Tyson Mutrux (33:02)
You started your firm around 2009.

Before that, you worked for another family law firm for several years.

Tell me about that experience.

Jonathan Merel (33:14)
It was my first job after passing the bar.

There were probably five or six lawyers.

At first, I learned a ton. I was a sponge.

Eventually, I started bringing in cases of my own and thinking about partnership.

Am I going to be offered partnership?

Do I even want to be a partner here?

Over time, I became really unhappy.

I felt underappreciated.

I was coming in at six in the morning. I was the last person to leave. I was outbilling every other associate by hundreds of hours a year.

I didn’t necessarily need pats on the back, but sometimes it feels good to know you’re appreciated.

I wasn’t seeing it through compensation either.

Nobody was really saying, “We’re lucky to have you. Here’s what your future looks like.”

For about two years toward the end, I knew I was eventually going to leave.

I started taking mental notes about what I liked and didn’t like, and how I wanted my firm to be different.

Eventually, I went out on my own.

I took my law clerk with me, and she’s now the managing partner at my firm.

I used everything I’d learned about practicing law, but also everything I had learned about how I did and didn’t want to run a firm.

I wanted employees to know I appreciated them.

I wanted to reward them for their hard work.

I wanted to create a better environment and a real culture instead of having a bunch of people show up, bill hours, and leave.

I wanted people to enjoy coming to work and enjoy the people they worked with.

Tyson Mutrux (35:52)
What was the breaking point?

Jonathan Merel (35:58)
Unfortunately, I think it came down to money.

I was always the person who had to ask to talk about compensation.

That’s completely opposite from how I run my firm now.

We have reviews. I try to stay ahead of raises and compensation increases.

I don’t want someone to feel the way I felt.

They also never really talked about partnership.

I think that’s something young lawyers need to hear.

“You’re doing these things right. These are the things you need to work on. Here’s what you need to do if partnership is your goal.”

That kind of communication matters from a firm leader.

I never had it.

Eventually, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and I was out.

Tyson Mutrux (37:08)
Do you have a written plan for associates showing them how they can become partners?

Jonathan Merel (37:15)
We have guidelines.

It’s ultimately discretionary, but if people are doing the right things, showing loyalty to the firm, helping bring in business, mentoring lawyers below them, treating staff well, and really buying into what we do, chances are they’re going to become a partner.

And they know that because I tell them.

Tyson Mutrux (37:50)
Do you ever look back at something your old firm did that you hated and then realize, after becoming an owner, that maybe they were right?

Jonathan Merel (38:00)
It’s always different when you’re the person writing the paycheck.

When you’re working for someone else, you don’t understand the other side.

There might be a payroll where you’re the person who doesn’t get paid because everyone else gets paid first.

You’re staying up thinking about rent, expenses, and a million other things.

You see yourself in a vacuum when you’re an employee.

Once you become an owner, you understand and appreciate that side more.

It didn’t override how I felt about how I was treated, but wearing the owner hat is completely different.

Tyson Mutrux (38:55)
Looking back, are you happy you left?

If they had offered you partnership, would you have stayed?

Jonathan Merel (39:03)
I would never have stayed.

Even if they had offered me partnership, I wouldn’t change a thing.

I always knew I wanted to start my own firm.

I knew I could do it differently and better.

That firm eventually imploded, so thankfully I didn’t stay.

I love what I do now.

I love looking out for my employees and being their biggest fan.

My role has evolved.

I’m still working with clients, but I’m not in court as much.

I’m more focused on building and growing the business.

Tyson Mutrux (39:55)
What do you think has been the key to the firm’s growth?

Jonathan Merel (40:00)
Hiring good people.

Marketing the right way.

Rewarding your people.

Creating a good culture and providing a good work environment.

The most important piece is your people.

I would not be where I am, and the firm would not be where it is, without the people who work for me, their loyalty, and their dedication.

Good people translate into good results for clients and good legal work.

If you get those things right, it’s a recipe for success.

Tyson Mutrux (40:48)
You seem like you’d be a fun boss.

Jonathan Merel (40:53)
I think I’m considered a fun boss.

I’m always trying to make people smile and laugh.

When I need to put my foot down, I put my foot down.

It’s finding that mix.

You want to be loved, but maybe feared a little bit too.

I definitely don’t want to be feared more than I’m loved.

I try to make it fun because this is a serious business.

We deal with emotional situations and clients going through horrible things.

Especially with younger lawyers, it’s easy for them to get caught up in the case and almost treat it like it’s their own family.

Sometimes I have to tell them, “Take a step back. This is not your family. We’re here to do a job and help our client through this, but we cannot have the same emotional connection they have.”

Tyson Mutrux (42:02)
Have you ever thought about offering therapy services to your associates or staff to help them avoid carrying all of that?

Jonathan Merel (42:12)
Absolutely.

I encourage every employee to see a therapist.

If the job is getting to be too much, tell me.

Take a breather.

Take a vacation.

We’re generous with PTO. If somebody needs a day to get away, I’m all for it.

Family law is hard.

People are always fighting.

You get calls in the middle of the night and emails at five in the morning asking why you haven’t responded.

Even when you do a great job, there’s still something sad at the end of it.

A marriage ended.

Someone doesn’t see their kids all the time.

It’s hard.

Jonathan Merel (42:44)
That actually ties into something we do at our firm.

We have an in-house divorce coach.

I think we may be one of the only firms doing it.

I’d been looking for someone for a couple of years because we’ve always tried to be progressive and focus on the client experience.

Think about what happens when someone comes into a family law firm for the first time.

Their life is in shambles.

Something crazy happened, or their marriage has been deteriorating for years.

They’re a mess.

Then immediately we’re saying, “We need your financial affidavit. We need tax returns. We need bank statements.”

Their head is spinning.

Sometimes one spouse has never dealt with the finances at all.

There is so much happening, and the normal legal process has almost no concern for the mental and emotional toll the client is experiencing.

I wanted someone who could be the liaison between us and the client for that side of the process.

So we hired an amazing divorce coach who is trained in domestic violence.

She can be almost like a therapist for clients while being part of our team.

Tyson Mutrux (44:50)
That has to help the lawyers too.

Jonathan Merel (44:54)
Absolutely.

Clients want to talk to someone who has experience dealing with the emotional side of divorce.

Attorneys don’t necessarily have that training.

Our coach can work with the client and also come back to us and say, “This client is really struggling. Here are some things you should be thinking about.”

Clients love talking to her.

It takes a load off our plate, and it’s been a great addition to the firm.

Tyson Mutrux (45:34)
I interviewed someone who had a separate divorce coaching company outside of his family law firm.

Have you ever dealt with an external coach like that?

Jonathan Merel (45:44)
Our coach is an employee of the firm, but people can also hire her separately.

We’ve had people contact us and say, “I just want to hire Christina.”

Her name is Christina Lindsay.

She’s not an attorney. She’s a certified divorce coach and trained in domestic violence.

The certification teaches you the ins and outs of the divorce process, discovery, litigation, some law, and also the emotional coaching side of helping people through divorce.

I think more firms will eventually have something like this.

It’s a great resource for clients and a great resource for lawyers.

We want to talk to our clients, but having an attorney spend an hour on the phone while someone cries is not necessarily the best use of the attorney’s time.

A divorce coach is better equipped to handle that part.

Tyson Mutrux (47:05)
Do you bill for her time?

Jonathan Merel (47:08)
Yes, at a reduced rate.

We also offer an initial free consultation with her for new clients.

They don’t have to use her, but a lot of clients choose to check in every couple of weeks for 20 or 30 minutes.

They know they have somebody to talk to who is also part of the legal team.

It works really well.

Tyson Mutrux (47:33)
You’ve mentioned culture a few times.

What makes a good culture?

Jonathan Merel (47:40)
A good culture is one where people actually want to go to work.

I think some of that was lost after COVID because so many people stopped going into offices.

While other firms were reducing office space, I doubled down.

I wanted to build a place where people wanted to come to work.

We have meditation rooms.

We have a workout room.

We have Zoom courtrooms.

We have collaborative spaces.

We have a lounge and a bar.

It’s a modern twist on what people expect a law firm to look like.

But it also creates a place where people can meet and connect.

Culture doesn’t mean everyone has to be best friends.

But if you create camaraderie, do things together, give people opportunities to get to know each other, and have good leaders teaching younger employees the values you care about, you start creating something meaningful.

Tyson Mutrux (49:38)
The skeptical person could look at all those office amenities and say, “He just built all of that to keep people in the office longer.”

What do you say to that?

Jonathan Merel (49:50)
It’s not true.

We don’t have crazy billable-hour requirements.

We promote work-life balance.

I just want a good place for people to come to work.

They don’t have to stay all night.

They don’t have to come in at the crack of dawn.

We have work-from-home components too.

Obviously, if you’re a lawyer, sometimes you have to work longer than you want to because things have to get done.

That comes with the job.

But the goal is simply to provide the right place to work.

Tyson Mutrux (50:42)
You’ve also got a bar in the office.

I worked at an injury firm where we had a four o’clock rule.

At four o’clock, you could grab a beer from the fridge and have one at your desk.

One of our associates recently asked me, “Then you drove home?”

I realized that, as an injury lawyer, I had never even thought about that.

Do you ever worry about that?

Jonathan Merel (51:07)
We usually open the bar for certain occasions. It’s not just a free-for-all.

If a couple of lawyers want to have a beer in the office, I’m all for it.

At the end of the day, everyone has to be a responsible adult.

We’re obviously not promoting anybody breaking the law.

Tyson Mutrux (51:37)
You have a managing partner, Melissa.

She was actually the law clerk you brought with you from the previous firm.

When did you decide she was going to become managing partner?

Jonathan Merel (51:49)
Melissa has been the glue of the firm.

She’s an amazing attorney and an amazing person to have by my side.

When I was at the old firm, I had been begging them to give me a law clerk because I was doing everything myself.

They finally agreed, and I hired her.

I could tell almost immediately that she was great.

When I decided to leave, I told her, “Look, I understand if you want to stay. This is an established law firm, and I’m about to start my own firm in some crappy little office. But I’d love to have you come with me.”

She said, “I’m with you.”

She was basically my Jerry Maguire moment.

She came with me, passed the bar a year later, and became our first associate.

Now we have more than 20 lawyers, and she’s been an integral part of that growth.

She’s an amazing lawyer.

She’s great at management, bringing in business, mentoring, and setting the tone for how things should be done.

She earned that title.

Tyson Mutrux (53:38)
What does she do that you don’t do?

Jonathan Merel (53:42)
She handles more of the day-to-day management.

She’s a control freak, in a good way. Sorry, Melissa.

There are still tasks she does that she was doing when she was basically the only person here because she has a hard time letting go of them.

I call her my work wife.

She’s been the constant in my career.

She manages caseloads, hours, and the day-to-day stuff.

She’s more in the trenches.

I’ve moved more into the CEO role where I’m looking at growing the business.

Tyson Mutrux (54:32)
Who gets the final say on an issue?

Jonathan Merel (54:37)
On the business side, the buck ultimately stops with me.

But when we’re talking about how we run the firm, technology we want to adopt, billable hours, or things like that, we bring partners into the conversation.

We have committees throughout the firm because we want people involved.

With management and hiring, Melissa is heavily involved, and I bring in other partners too.

In partner meetings, I’m asking things like, “Do we need to target a certain area? Do we need another position? How is everyone’s workload?”

It’s collaborative.

Tyson Mutrux (56:11)
When someone becomes a partner, do they have an ownership stake in the firm?

Jonathan Merel (56:17)
No.

They’re partners, but they don’t currently have equity.

Tyson Mutrux (56:22)
Would you ever give up equity?

Jonathan Merel (56:27)
I think I would.

The timing has to be right.

Ultimately, I want to leave the firm to somebody.

Who better than the people who have worked their asses off for me and for this firm?

That’s the plan.

I just have to figure out how to do it.

Tyson Mutrux (57:02)
It’s one of those sticky topics.

People hear “equity” and immediately think it sounds great.

But they don’t always understand what’s involved.

Jonathan Merel (57:13)
Exactly.

Equity is not always more money and more profit.

It’s more responsibility.

There’s a cost to it.

It’s not all sunshine and rainbows running a law firm.

There are nights when you’re awake thinking about things and tossing and turning.

Employees work hard, but they get their salary.

They get commissions on cases they originate.

They get bonuses.

They don’t have to think about everything the owner has to think about.

I understand why people want equity, but sometimes people want something before they understand all the strings attached.

There are situations where partners have to get on an emergency call and say, “We each need to put $50,000 into the firm because we have to keep it going.”

That’s reality.

Tyson Mutrux (58:25)
That’s something people don’t think about.

Taking money out of your own account to pay firm expenses.

Jonathan Merel (58:32)
Exactly.

There’s exposure.

There’s liability.

If the firm gets sued, who is paying the deductible?

You’ve got malpractice insurance, rent, health insurance, 401(k)s, profit sharing.

You name it.

People like getting money from the business.

I’m not sure they always like paying money into the business.

Tyson Mutrux (59:30)
Family law malpractice can be expensive too.

Jonathan Merel (59:34)
Thankfully, we’ve done good work and haven’t had major claims.

I had one crazy pro se litigant sue me during my first 15 years. It was dismissed.

Then in the last year, I had two more clients sue me, and both claims were dismissed.

But I know people in this business who have made major mistakes, and that can really increase your premiums.

Family law is emotional.

If somebody feels like they got the short end of the stick, sometimes the reaction is, “Let’s sue somebody.”

Tyson Mutrux (60:32)
I really respect family law attorneys because you have to know so many different areas.

You have family law, estate planning issues, courts, taxes.

Everything gets wrapped into it.

Jonathan Merel (60:45)
You have to learn a lot, which is why the learning curve for young family lawyers is tough.

A lot of these things you eventually learn through life experience.

Mortgages.

Taxes.

Credit cards.

Children.

Being a parent.

But when you’re fresh out of law school, you may not own property.

You probably haven’t had complicated income tax filings.

You may not be married.

You probably don’t have kids.

Then suddenly you’re immersed in all of those concepts.

As you get more life experience, some of it starts to make more sense naturally.

Tyson Mutrux (61:48)
Your dad was a criminal defense attorney.

What do you think you learned from watching him practice?

Jonathan Merel (61:56)
That I didn’t want to do criminal law.

It’s stressful.

I remember him doing a murder trial and being incredibly nervous.

I understand why defendants need good counsel, but sometimes you are representing some very bad people.

There is so much on the line when you’re talking about somebody’s freedom.

Tyson Mutrux (62:28)
I did criminal defense for a while, and I was way more stressed during criminal trials than injury trials.

In injury cases, ultimately it’s money.

In criminal cases, the person is either walking out one door or going through another door.

That weighs on you differently.

Jonathan Merel (62:50)
Absolutely.

And sometimes you don’t really know.

If somebody gets convicted and didn’t do it, that’s another level of weight on your conscience.

Tyson Mutrux (63:22)
Things seem to be going really well for you now.

Was there ever a point owning the firm where you thought, “I don’t know if we’re going to make it”?

Jonathan Merel (63:34)
Every day.

I think if you don’t have some of that “holy shit” mentality, it can actually hold you back.

Fear of failure motivates me.

It makes me get up and start working at five in the morning.

It keeps work on my mind, for better or worse.

To be a successful business owner, I think you have to maintain a little bit of that feeling that this thing could go under.

If you think everything is smooth and start kicking your feet up, you take things for granted.

That’s when things can turn.

I always want to be working.

I want my employees to know I’m working and setting a good example.

You never completely feel satisfied because there’s always more to be done.

Tyson Mutrux (64:45)
When you started the firm, you immediately had someone else you had to pay.

Was there ever a moment where you thought you might need another job?

Jonathan Merel (64:56)
I was freaking out.

I started the firm in 2009 during a horrible recession.

My daughter was about to be born.

A lot of people questioned the timing.

But I couldn’t take where I was anymore.

At first, I was only paying a law clerk hourly.

But every time I hire someone new, even today, I worry about whether I can afford to pay them.

That mindset makes you work harder to make sure everyone is taken care of.

I remember hiring the first associate and thinking, “Can I afford this salary?”

Then, “Can I afford a paralegal?”

Then another associate.

Seventeen and a half years later, I still think about those things.

Tyson Mutrux (65:58)
If you could go back to 2009 and give yourself advice, what would you say?

Jonathan Merel (66:05)
I honestly wouldn’t do that much differently.

I’ve made mistakes.

I’ve made bad hires.

I’ve gotten into marketing contracts that handcuffed me for a while.

But that’s part of running a business.

You have to take risks.

Calculated risks, not reckless risks.

Every business owner has trials and tribulations.

You learn from mistakes.

You learn how to treat employees.

You learn how to say no.

Saying no is a huge skill.

When you’re younger, it’s harder to say no, so you get stuck doing things you don’t really want to do and clog up your schedule.

Those are lessons you have to learn through trial and error.

Tyson Mutrux (66:35)
What’s something you think you should stop doing that you’re still doing?

Jonathan Merel (66:43)
Taking calls at 10:30 or 11 at night.

Tyson Mutrux (66:48)
Are you out of your mind?

Do your clients have your cell phone?

Jonathan Merel (66:54)
Yes.

I’m probably the only lawyer in my office who gives my cell phone number to every client.

I don’t know any differently.

My brain is always going a mile a minute.

If I’m watching TV and a client texts me, I respond.

I should set more boundaries.

Last night, I was talking to a client at 10:30.

In my head I’m thinking, “Why the hell are you calling me right now?”

But then I answer, “Hey, what’s going on?”

I don’t think it’s healthy.

There’s really no reason I should be responding to texts, calls, or emails after eight o’clock unless it’s an emergency.

But at the same time, maybe some of that is what drives the success of the firm.

Tyson Mutrux (68:05)
I used to think that was what you had to do too.

Eventually I learned to turn it off.

We’ve also had attorneys come in where I’ve had to fight the urge to expect them to do everything the way I did it.

Sometimes former solos come in with really unreasonable expectations for staff.

You have to ratchet that back.

You don’t text a paralegal at 10:30 at night because you suddenly need something.

Jonathan Merel (68:38)
That’s a big thing for us too.

We’ve had people come from other firms where they relied heavily on paralegals and admins and expected those people to do everything for them.

I don’t think that’s right.

Sometimes you have to bring them down to earth and say, “I don’t know how things worked over there, but we have boundaries here.”

Support staff need those boundaries.

No one should be treated better than those people.

They’re the nuts and bolts of the firm.

I make sure they’re treated as well as anybody.

Tyson Mutrux (69:30)
I worked at a firm where the process was so strange.

You’d generate a document, then an assistant had to print it, put it somewhere, then you’d walk over and sign it.

I kept thinking, “How is this faster than just doing it myself?”

Jonathan Merel (69:51)
I’ve always had that mentality.

If I can do it myself and be done with it, I’d rather do that.

I think some lawyers are taught that they should rely on other people for everything.

But there have to be boundaries, especially when it comes to support staff.

Tyson Mutrux (70:47)
Last question.

What do you ultimately want from your firm?

When you eventually hang it up, what do you want this to have created?

Jonathan Merel (70:58)
I want to provide a good career for the people who work for me.

I want them to be able to say, “I love the place I work. I’ve grown as a lawyer. I’ve grown as a person. I’ve grown financially. I’ve become financially secure and built a nice nest egg for myself and my family.”

Seeing the success of the people who work for me is more fulfilling than my own success.

If I can provide the vehicle for my employees to reach levels of success they maybe never even dreamed of, that makes me beyond happy.

Tyson Mutrux (71:43)
I like that answer.

Thanks, Jonathan. This was great.