Transitioning from Prosecutor to Criminal Defense Attorney with Thomas Moskal

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Are you an attorney who is just starting out or looking to acquire their own firm? In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, Tyson speaks with Thomas Moskal, a criminal defense attorney and former chief deputy district attorney. Thomas shares his journey from prosecution to private practice and the challenges of starting his own practice.

Thomas shares his insights on the difficult aspects of starting a practice and things to understand in order to prosper as a law firm owner. Going solo without experience or knowledge in how to practice or litigate is a huge issue. If someone only has book knowledge but doesn't know how to represent a client or how to communicate with a client, it can cause major problems for success. It is important to gain this skill either in law school or through working with more senior lawyers. This will allow you to gain the necessary skills and experience needed to run your own firm.

Thomas speaks to the importance of understanding your value as a lawyer. Value is tied to how good you are as an attorney. If you are experienced and have consistent wins, you will charge more while newer attorneys may charge less so they can get clients. You need to be good at your craft to charge a fair price as well as know your worth and what you bring to the table.

Take a listen to learn more!

Episode Highlights:

  • 10:19 Building the Practice
  • 16:32 Systemic Issues in Defense 
  • 23:34 Flat Fee Structures 
  • 33:05 Scaling Challenges in Criminal Defense 
  • 36:43 Case Management Strategies 
  • 01:06:00 Referrals and Networking 
  • 01:24:12 Long-Term Career Goals

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Transcripts: Transitioning from Prosecutor to Criminal Defense Attorney with Thomas Moskal

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host, Tyson Tricks.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:11 Well, Thomas, welcome to the show.

Thomas Moskal 00:00:13 Yeah, thanks for having me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:14 You bet. So I want to start with, your your role that you had before starting your firm. Okay. And so you were the chief deputy district attorney, is that right? Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:00:26 I mean, it's a fancy title. I was a prosecutor. It does.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:29 It does sound like a fancy title, chief.

Thomas Moskal 00:00:31 Once you get the promotion, it's kind of like making partner here in, Clark County, Nevada. Gotcha. You make chief after five years, get a pay bump, and you get the title. but, yeah, I was a prosecutor for about seven years. County handling, you know, think about Clark County. That's different from a lot of prosecutorial agencies. Not that I worked for them, but I've heard is, Clark County, you start out. I mean, they throw you right into felonies. You're doing trials right away. Jury trials right away.

Thomas Moskal 00:00:53 Yeah. So handle a bunch of serious cases. Did it for about seven years. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:56 How's that? Helped your your your practice as a criminal defense attorney?

Thomas Moskal 00:01:00 Well, it's everything. I mean, the way I actually fell into, solo practices, after Covid, they made us come back to the office. It was May 2021. that was the the order. We're coming back to the office, and I started coming back to the office. And having not been in there for a while, I just wasn't feeling coming back into the office like a lot of people in America. And so, about four weeks in, I was handling this real serious case out here. About five bicyclists got killed by this DUI driver, and I was the lead DUI death prosecutor in Vegas. For years, I handled all the big cases, and this one was a big one, and the police messed it up. they really messed it up. I'd never seen such a clear case of coerced consent. And, everybody who looked at the case and knew that.

Thomas Moskal 00:01:45 So a motion to suppress comes. Blood. Results are tossed. We're going to have trouble in this case. Five people killed, two people hurt. And, I got the case dealt. I got a good result out of the case. but the day of sentencing, it was June 3rd, 2021. I gave, Steve Wolfson my notice. Two hours before sentencing, I said, you know, I think I'm going to be out of here. And, it wasn't just that, but I wasn't feeling coming back to the office. My son was two years old. Like a lot of attorneys, you're not getting time with the kids, and everybody says, you're going to regret not spending time with your kids. It's true. Yeah. I mean, if I got one superpower in my life, it's like I can take advice from somebody. And if it rings true to me, I can change my entire perspective on life. Yeah. And so my uncle also passed away a few days before that pulmonary embolism.

Thomas Moskal 00:02:30 Oh my gosh, it just came out of nowhere. So I got a phone call like he didn't like he died. Everybody was surprised. So that kind of gave me the extra push. It was a lot of things.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:37 Was that so I was going to ask was like through a like some moment that happened was like that the the moment that pushed your was there. You said it was a lot of things. But like, do you think you would have done it if he hadn't, if he hadn't passed?

Thomas Moskal 00:02:49 Well, I had already talked to my direct supervisor that I was planning to leave the office.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:53 All right. So you'd already kind of committed.

Thomas Moskal 00:02:55 Well, just to him, it was informal. We were really good friends. but I just wanted to give him a heads up. And I was like, you know, I'm gonna try and make it to the end of the year. You know, I had some cases I'd been handling for years. The families trusted me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:08 Where were we in the year at this point?

Thomas Moskal 00:03:10 This is like.

Thomas Moskal 00:03:11 This is May or May.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:12 Okay, so you were gonna put another seven months in? Yeah. Okay.

Thomas Moskal 00:03:15 And I and I'd been ruminating on this for months and months and months, I tried everything. meditating. Taking a walk outside. You know, the walks in nature.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:24 The walks are nice.

Thomas Moskal 00:03:25 Workout, breathing exercises. What's that? the ice man, where he does that? Oh, yeah. Vim hof method. I was doing that every night. I was trying everything to change my state because I'm like, is it the job or is it something else? Yeah. And it's not the job. Because, you know, I never thought I was going to be a career prosecutor, but I really liked what I did. And, come to find out, I'm like, I think I need to make a change. And so I told him the end of the year. He said, well, let me know he's got my back no matter what. Sorry, I said, I'll try to make it at the end of the summer.

Thomas Moskal 00:03:56 That's what I thought. He goes on vacation. I get the call that my uncle dies. And, I said, why am I waiting till the end of the summer? Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:05 Was it like life, too? Life's too short.

Thomas Moskal 00:04:07 That's right. Tomorrow's not promised. You know, I look younger than I am. I'm about 45. Okay. And so I'm like, well, if I'm gonna make a change, I'm gonna do this. And I always had the inkling of, like, doing private practice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:16 How long ago was this? Three years ago. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:04:18 2021. So we're about three, about a little over three years in now. Yeah. And so how long.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:23 Were you there? Seven. Seven. And then what'd you do before that?

Thomas Moskal 00:04:27 I had my own practice for a second, and I went to law school late. Okay.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:31 Because I was trying to figure out the the. Yeah, I was a non-traditional student.

Thomas Moskal 00:04:34 For sure. For sure. I got barred in 2012.

Thomas Moskal 00:04:38 Okay, so I've been practicing for about 12 years.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:40 How long were you? So that's seven. So you've been a couple years, then? I guess you were a couple.

Thomas Moskal 00:04:46 Years before that? yeah. I moved out to Vegas. I worked for a guy as a solo practitioner. Oh, man, I couldn't stand it. Yeah, he was doing construction defect, and he was like that typical big law partner that you hear. I guess he worked at big law for a little while. I mean, you would just go off on me for no reason.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:04 I've never understood those types. Yeah, I don't I don't get it. It's like I want to kick your ass, you know? It's like you like you're not going to talk to me that way like that. It's crazy to me. Well, you.

Thomas Moskal 00:05:13 Gotta have a little bit of, like, give people grace. It's kind of like parents that are beating their kids. Their parents beat them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:19 Yeah, right.

Thomas Moskal 00:05:20 So he probably got that treatment, and he's probably not as bad as he was treated.

Thomas Moskal 00:05:24 Maybe. You know what I mean? Yeah. And but I was like, I'm not. Hey, I'm a little too old. And that's that's the problem with getting a little too old sometimes is, you're just not going to take anything like that, that kind of treatment. And, so I wasn't I could still take some treatment at that time. I was still in my early 30s, at this point in my life, I mean, somebody talked to me that way. I'd be out real quick so I wouldn't last at a firm at this point. but. Yeah. So he died. my uncle died. I gave my. I was like, I'm gonna give my notice right away. I gave my notice. And I remember I, gave the Da the Ada was sitting right there. I was there lead DUI death, prosecutor. Everybody thought I was gonna make a career of it. And, Wolfson asked me, da Wolfson. He goes, well, if you could leave whenever you want and when would it be? And I said, right after this, guys get sentenced and adjudicated today, I'd walk out the Ada almost spit his coffee.

Thomas Moskal 00:06:13 Out he goes. Today I said, well, he asked me a question. I mean, let me go home and think about it. I did another 30 days, tightened up my caseload, made it good for the next guy to train.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:22 The responsible thing to do. Yeah, it is.

Thomas Moskal 00:06:24 Yeah it is. And, you know, I always say that I am a conscientious to a fault, to my own detriment. Sure. You know, because, but I did it, and I left, and I really didn't know what I was going to do after that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:36 You didn't. You know, you didn't have any plans to go start your own firm. Nothing like that.

Thomas Moskal 00:06:40 I said I had saved up some money. Live below your means. I was gonna take a year off. My. My son was two. I was like, I'm like, I'm gonna take a year off, see what happens, and I'll tell you what. the back to the question you asked, which is how did it help me? Yeah, my cell phone just rings a month later, my personal cell.

Thomas Moskal 00:06:58 And it's a potential client. Okay. Right. They've been referred by somebody that heard I wasn't at the DA's office anymore. So I take the case, and I'm like, well, I better get my LLC up right away. This this might happen once in a while. Sure. Right. I get the LLC up. within a couple of weeks, I get another referral to my personal cell. I don't have a business line. Do you know where.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:21 They're coming from at this point?

Thomas Moskal 00:07:22 I don't.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:23 Do you even. Do you know where they ever came from?

Thomas Moskal 00:07:25 No, I would ask and they just said, hey, a lawyer friend of mine or my, my son has a friend that clerked for a judge, and they recommended you. And that was the thing about being a prosecutor. You know, I was just I was in the courthouse, in the trenches so much that, it had just people got to know me. I made friends, I made. I had this community.

Thomas Moskal 00:07:46 I it was automatic networking just by being in court every day. And so once I left the office, a lot of people knew and I guess people were just referring business. Well, anyways, this guy calls me and he says, he had this case as a felony case. He's referred by a defense attorney in the area. He knew I was out on my own. Right. And he gets a lot of business. He's nearing retirement. And he said, oh, yeah, this guy referred me so very, very warm lead, right? I mean, this is like an automatic close, but I have no office. I have no website. I do have my LLC in my bank account at this point. I don't have payment processing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:18 Do you have a trust account up yet?

Thomas Moskal 00:08:20 I didn't know I had that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:21 Okay.

Thomas Moskal 00:08:21 Got the I had the bank account, I had my LLC and that was it. I didn't even have credit card processing. Right. Wow. So the guys are like, our friend is in jail right now.

Thomas Moskal 00:08:32 This is how criminal defense is. Absolutely. where can we meet you? Where am I going to meet him? I don't have an office.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:38 I'll meet you at the jail. No, I.

Thomas Moskal 00:08:39 Said, well, where? What part of town are you in? Vegas is kind of big. They said, well, we're in Henderson. I said, okay, well, my office is kind of downtown, you know, why don't I just come to you?

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:50 Right. Nice. Well played. So come.

Thomas Moskal 00:08:51 To them. Meet them in a Starbucks. but I'd been in the newspaper many, many, many times. And on the news because of the, the cases I prosecuted.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:59 So you were recognizable at that point?

Thomas Moskal 00:09:00 Well, I got there and, you know, I just they just googled me and news articles are showing up. They go, oh, he's legit. We're in a Starbucks. And they go, well, how much is the fee? And I go, well, I charge 20,000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:12 So do you for for this market was that high? Low right and right in line. Did you even know I.

Thomas Moskal 00:09:19 Didn't know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:20 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:09:20 I just know that, I had been paying attention over the years to every defense attorney I came across. Yeah, I talked to them a lot. So their prices are all over the place.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:29 All over the place, you know?

Thomas Moskal 00:09:31 but again, I'm also trying to just take time off, and I'm not trying to do work for cheap. So you're.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:35 You're quoting a number that you're like, I'll be happy if they pay it. And if not, okay, whatever. Exactly. Okay.

Thomas Moskal 00:09:41 If they want, If they pay it, cool. If not, fine. It was a real serious case too. By the way. Like, I knew how serious it was. Yeah. and they go, okay. They were like, I was like, it's 20,000. If you can pay it up front, I give a 10% discount. I still do that.

Thomas Moskal 00:09:57 To this day it's 18,000. Otherwise I need half down or whatever. They're like, no, we can pay it up front. And they're like, do you take cash?

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:04 yes, I do.

Thomas Moskal 00:10:04 And I said, yeah, I didn't have credit card, I didn't have credit card processing. And literally they go, wait right here, I'm in a Starbucks. They go out into the parking lot, they come back in, they hand me 18 grand.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:17 Could you stop smiling after that?

Thomas Moskal 00:10:19 Well, no. At first I'm like, in Starbucks.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:21 Like, what do you.

Thomas Moskal 00:10:22 What am I doing? They're like, do you want to count it? I said, I'll just trust you on it. I'll count it like when I get in the car. But that's kind of like the genesis of it. And then two days later, another referral came to me, and he wanted to pay. And I quoted him like seven grand and, He's like, okay, I can pay right now by credit card.

Thomas Moskal 00:10:42 And I said, well, I still don't have my credit card processing. So I'm calling law pay. And he's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:47 Trying to get like and they're like, it's going to take 2 or.

Thomas Moskal 00:10:49 3 days. I was like, I need like I need it done in like 2 or 3 hours. Yeah. And the guy pushed it through. He got it done for me. Oh fantastic. Yeah. And I got that case and I said, man, maybe there's something to it. I'm still trying to take time off, but if these kind of come around and they just kept coming, I mean, long story short, they just kept coming. And so going back to your original question, yeah, yeah, the prior experience had everything to do with it. If I was if I just hung my shingle coming out of law school, none of that's happening. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:17 You know, it is interesting. And as a district attorney. So I'm just going to call you a prosecutor out here.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:22 So because we just call them prosecutors in Missouri. So, so as a prosecutor, I mean, I'm sure you saw the solos that would come right out of law school, right? Like you'd see him come and take a criminal case. I guess what what was your perception of those types of people that just hang out their shingle right out of law school? Like, did you have any perception of those those attorneys that would do that?

Thomas Moskal 00:11:41 Well, I know this. When I interviewed the prosecutor's office, they asked me why I never did any criminal defense work prior to that. And I said, oh, that's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:48 An interesting thing. I said, I.

Thomas Moskal 00:11:49 Don't mind taking a case that I don't know how to do being a young attorney, but criminal defense, I mean, with somebody's liberty at stake, I would have an issue with that. And they kind of laughed. And as I was a prosecutor, I saw that, the quality of lawyering in the criminal defense bar is pretty bad.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:07 So you've been able you've been able to leverage your experience against that, I guess, in this market.

Thomas Moskal 00:12:12 Well, yeah, of course. I mean, is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:14 There a big fish here in this town? So like in Saint Louis, like in Missouri, like the big DWI lawyer is Travis Noble. He's well known in Missouri. I don't know if he. I know he speaks all over the country. Scott Rosenblum is the big guy in Saint Louis. Like, is there like a big fish here in Vegas?

Thomas Moskal 00:12:30 there's some very well known attorneys. I think the guy who was considered, like, the guy, he passed away a couple years ago. he had had multiple heart surgeries. Bill Terry was his name. Yeah. Great guy, very respected. I had run ins with him. but he had been around since, you know, the mob days in Vegas. He's been around for a long time. You know, the the mayor. Oscar Goodman was a big hitter before he became mayor.

Thomas Moskal 00:12:53 You know, he he represented, like, you know, the mob never existed, according to him. But he represented these guys, and he was good at what he did. He won some wiretap cases. Next thing you know, he's getting everything. And he ascended to mayor. but there's kind of it's kind of like a transition period. So there's some guys that are in town, but I don't think there's one person who's considered like, oh, he's the guy. It's pretty much word of mouth where, if somebody's been around for a while, they're, they're getting referrals because they've been around for a while, and the attorneys know who they are, and their former clients know who they are. but it's kind of a vacuum right now. Does it say.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:27 Do you have that that I was kind of thinking of as a vacuum, too. Like, do you do you have any ambition to fill that void?

Thomas Moskal 00:13:33 well, I think is, just as, Look, I was a lead DUI death prosecutor.

Thomas Moskal 00:13:38 Prosecuted thousands of DUIs. Yeah. Every lawyer wants to take a DUI case, man. Yeah, they do. Every, every. Even if they don't practice criminal defense, they think it's easy money. It's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:48 And here's so I did I do just do injury now. I did criminal defense back in the day I did DWI. And what really pissed me off about those because in Missouri become DWI. What always made me mad is that to do them effectively, that you do need to charge a pretty steep fee to do, because we can do depos at during the administrative hearing and all that in Missouri. So but there's some things you could do that are really effective to help preserve this person's license, but also to maybe get them off because of all the criminal cases, that might be the easiest to get someone off, because all the technical issues that are there are with DWS, but you'd have someone to take them for $300, $400, $500. It's like it's crazy to me. And I'm assuming you probably fight that out here a little bit too, where people are just charging nothing for these dwis.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:33 Whatever. And there's no way they could effectively do them out here for that amount.

Thomas Moskal 00:14:37 Well, the truth is, like I said, I prosecuted, and I'm actually the city prosecutor for Boulder City still. Oh, so you can.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:42 Do we have that out in Saint Louis, too, where you like people are municipal.

Thomas Moskal 00:14:45 Prosecutors. So it's a contract thing. They don't have much crime down there. So I'm still on the other side of these guys, and I'm going to tell you, nobody's doing anything on those cases.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:54 Yeah, that's that's the thing. Like. Well, but you could, but no one does.

Thomas Moskal 00:14:58 They don't even know how.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:59 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:14:59 Look, that that's the problem with going solo right out of law school. Okay. You go solo out of law school or let's say solo before you even know really how to practice. And you're so busy getting business, getting clients, and then you never have time to actually learn how to execute if you need to, how to actually litigate.

Thomas Moskal 00:15:18 Right. And then you find, like, hey, nobody's really litigating. All these cases are resolving, I can do this with a couple phone calls. I have friends, like, they get a lot of clients and they say, hey, it's, it's a phone call in three court appearances. That's what I'm charging for, right? And I go, man, if you really look at it that way. I feel bad for the clients in that that regard. but a guy practices for ten years doing it that way. He's been doing it that way so long, he actually thinks he knows what he's doing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:44 So it's funny you say that because I, So before. So I took a case that was in Boone County, Missouri, and I'd been practicing in Saint Louis for a few years at this point. And like, we were like, you know, like you have we had a whole process for how to handle DWI. And my first appearance in Boone County was it was like a DWI docket.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:04 And I noticed all these attorneys pulling out all their clients on the first appearance because they offer a special deal. If you plead them out on the first appearance. And I'm thinking like, what a disservice, this is such an injustice. You know what I mean? Like it is. I could not believe what was happening because it was such a disservice to their client, but it was such a benefit to the attorneys and the prosecutor's office and the judge? Yes.

Thomas Moskal 00:16:29 So everybody involved.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:30 Except for the client. It's the.

Thomas Moskal 00:16:32 System. It's like that Dave Chappelle joke. Like you're sitting at a table and your attorney is supposed to be on your side, your agent. But they all work together all the time, and they're telling you, take this, take this deal. But really, they're doing what's best for them, not what's best for you. And no, I, I got a story for you. And I tell this to potential clients sometimes. there's a guy, and he's actually a decent defense attorney.

Thomas Moskal 00:16:52 but even, like I said, the the the bar is so low on what they're doing, right? I I'm outside. I'm training a prosecutor. I'm hanging outside the DWI courtroom, and it's a busy courtroom. Right. One judge hears all the cases and the DUI death cases are there. The injury cases are in there. But then also the misdemeanors. Right. And there's hundreds of them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:14 And one. One judge does it all.

Thomas Moskal 00:17:15 One judge here does it all, which is I guess it's good to streamline it. But anyways, I'm outside the courtroom because sometimes I would hang out when I'm training a prosecutor, I would just hang out outside, see, the defense attorneys and all their clients are out there. It's like a herd of cattle. And the defense attorneys are all meeting with them. Right. And this real pretty girl comes up to me. She goes, are you my attorney? And I go, no, you never met your attorney before. And she goes, I never met him.

Thomas Moskal 00:17:37 I was like, okay, what's his name? She says his name. I go, okay, if he if he shows up, I'll point him out to you. I was like, but what's your case on for today? She goes trial. I said, oh, okay. I was like, so he shows up. I point, I point out that I was like, that's him. She goes up to him. He's like, give me a minute. He's got five other clients there that day, right? And he's talking them all into pleading, right? That's what they do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:00 Oh my God.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:01 Because look, if you're being paid a flat fee, your financial incentive is to get rid of your case.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:06 That's part of the problem. Like charging too. Like not enough money. That's that's that's part of the problem. Yeah. So I go.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:11 In the courtroom, I talk to the prosecutor, I say, hey, do you have so-and-so's case on for trial? He goes, I do all my witnesses here.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:16 I look back, the cops, their the nurse, the chemist.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:18 So it's it's not one of those things where it's going to get reset. It's it's going it's going. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:23 And the defense attorneys are using that too. They left it on. Had their client come and his witness. Poker. Are the witnesses here? Yes. Okay. If they're here, you're pleading guilty to DWI. If they're not here, you're going to get some kind of reduction.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:37 That's disgusting.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:38 And that's the extent to which they do it. But here's the thing I talked to. The prosecutor said, I go, hey, did you ever talk to so-and-so about the case? Because he never called me back. So I assumed that it was just left on. I brought the witnesses in, I go, okay, I never had a phone call with him. This is one of the better defense attorneys in the area, mind you. Okay, next thing I know, ten minutes later, he walks in with her.

Thomas Moskal 00:18:58 They walk right up to the podium. Never comes up to me. Never comes up to the prosecutor because there's standard deals in these cases that everybody knows. Sure. And he just goes pleading no contest to DWI, DWI and doing the class and the fine. And with the standard deal that gets offered in the county for those which that was it. Yeah. But we, me and the prosecutor just looked at each other and went, dang. And so when I was about to go out on my own, right when I did leave, the DA's office is really experienced defense attorney, and he's one of the few guys like prosecutors would refer people to him, right? He doesn't even do that much either. But he'll file at least a motion if he thinks there's an issue. And he'll definitely call the prosecutor and try to wear the prosecutor out on the phone. That's more than most of them do. He'll actually call you and be like, come on. Please. Yes. Why not?

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:43 Like try.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:43 Like. Try something.

Thomas Moskal 00:19:44 Try.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:44 Just try. Just try. Right. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:19:46 And, he took me into his office, and he was a da. Way back in the 80s for, like, 3 or 4 years. And he goes. He goes, man, I he's like, I know what you're thinking. When I was here in the 80s, you're sitting there handling these calendars. All these attorneys are coming in and you're going, man, I can do way better than them. And I laughed, right. Yeah. And he's like, I know what you're thinking.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:06 So he could read your mind. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:20:07 He's like, you're thinking the same thing I thought 40 years ago. Yeah. Right. And, so I came out and. Yeah, I do charge a little bit more for my cases. but, you know, when I'm fighting like these municipal prosecutors, they are very aggressive because they only handle misdemeanors. It's not like the county, right? Right there they're concentrating on felony cases.

Thomas Moskal 00:20:26 And the misdemeanors are like, let's just try and get our convictions where we can, you know, these aggressive municipal prosecutors, you know, I'll pay for them because, look, they're used to everybody doing what I just told you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:37 And they it's like they're it's like these. They're the they're kind of bullies. Like, it's like they it's because I. I never thought about the way you just talked about how they're used to, like, just dealing with just these misdemeanors. Like, this is like their job right there. That's there. Whatever the case, whenever the actual prosecutors in the county are actually dealing with felonies, but then the misdemeanors kind of almost like a hindrance. It is. So I never thought about it from that angle. But it's like they they try to bully people into these pleas. It's drives me crazy.

Thomas Moskal 00:21:02 And and they know which ones they can because you're dealing with the same. Well if you, if you're dealing with somebody you've never seen before or barely shows up, it's like blood in the water, right? And if you're dealing with somebody you deal with, with all the time, you know how they operate.

Thomas Moskal 00:21:14 Sure. Is this a person who's just going to walk their client and you just tell them no a couple times, he might send you a long email with all the issues. Quote unquote. And he's going to plead his client. Or is this a guy who's actually going to leave it on for trial and do the trial? There's only a couple guys who would even do that. Or would I try to bring to the table, which is I'm not even going to let you get me into trial until you've already spent, several nights and weekends responding to motions I've authored. Yeah. And you're not going to be able to use the oppositions that I authored for everybody, the stock oppositions, because I know what I did. Oppositions for everybody uses them. So I'm giving like more of a bespoke defense, but I'm putting more time into a case. But with that it's like I carry a big stick, but I'm catching flies with honey. Yeah, because I was the prosecutor. I know how to talk to a prosecutor.

Thomas Moskal 00:22:01 I know what their concerns, but I know the ones who are going to be super aggressive but don't like to work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:06 Right.

Thomas Moskal 00:22:06 Yeah, they want their weekend off. And I'll tell you, when you file ten motions on somebody and they go, does anybody have an opposition for this? And nobody does because they've never seen it. And then they start doing the research. I'll tell you about a week before their oppositions are due. You get that email with an offer. It is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:21 Interesting. Like the prosecutors they have, like that big bark. They have a big bark and it's like they give you that pushback, but then they you're right. They don't want to try the case. They don't want to do that work. That's right. So but the bark works with most attorneys. You need.

Thomas Moskal 00:22:33 Both. A prosecutor's office needs both. You need the ones who just like they don't know how to litigate, but they will just they'll go in and just brawl.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:40 Right, right.

Thomas Moskal 00:22:41 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:22:41 And then you need some that were kind of like me at the prosecutor's office, which is, I want the defense to file some motions because I want you to be effective, because I gotta defend your defense. If we go to trial and your guy loses, which he is two years later. Ineffective assistance. thing. I'm defending you, so please file some motions. I don't care, but trust me when I tell you. And that guy, Bill Terry, who was, like the big shark out here. The big guy? Yeah. He knew when he got on a case with me, he's going to have to do work, because as a prosecutor, I actually filed motions, which nobody was doing. That's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:13 Yeah, that's kind of rare. Yeah, yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:23:15 I would do it. And, because I want to put the defense attorneys to work because I saw also like. And I know that now that I'm defense counsel like last thing I want to see is five, five motions come in on a misdemeanor DUI from some prosecutor.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:26 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's like you don't have to do that additional work for no extra money. Exactly. And so are you. Are you flat fee only or do you do do you do.

Thomas Moskal 00:23:34 I do flat fee. Yeah. You know, that's how just criminal defense is. I prefer it that way. it's an easier.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:40 Sell to the client.

Thomas Moskal 00:23:41 It is because it's mitigating their risk. Right. As far as the hourly rate goes, like. Yeah. Look, regardless, I'm going to do your case for this. And I actually love that there's guys out here that are doing the case for practically nothing I love it. You know why? Yeah. Well, I mean, come on, you're looking for a criminal defense attorney. You call five guys, they're like, I'll do it for 1500. I'll do it for 2000. I'll do it for whatever. And then I come in and I go, yeah, I was like, I'll do it for 10,000. I need 7500 up front.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:09 And here's why. Do you do you explain why or do you.

Thomas Moskal 00:24:11 Well, I don't even I see another thing is these guys will spit the price out right when they get somebody on the phone. Yeah. You know, number one, they're doing that because they're so busy. Yeah, they're taking so many clients. They're running a high volume practice or they're trying to screen right away, which for me is I'm just going to give somebody value up front. You're calling me. You're an emergency. I really know what I'm talking about here. I'll spend a half hour with you on the phone. Even if I think you're not going to be able to afford my services. Right? Yeah. And then I'll quote the price. And, if they don't hire me and they don't have the funds to hire me, that's fine. And I'll even try to direct them to somebody who I think is semi competent and will do it for less. You know, I'll direct you that way. but I'm okay with them walking away.

Thomas Moskal 00:24:57 The thing is this. If you're calling around and you really have a dire situation, do you want the $5,000 guy? The $10,000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:05 Guy? Yeah. You want the 10,000? That's what you want. Yeah, yeah. You want the $10,000 guy?

Thomas Moskal 00:25:08 The $20,000 guy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:10 You want.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:10 The $100,000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:11 Guy. It's interesting, the mindset part of that, right where like like because you there and I don't think that those I always call them the $500 attorney. Like they don't they don't realize that like how much of a disadvantage they're giving. They're, they're they're giving themselves by charging so little they look like the discount attorney.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:27 Well, here's here's what it comes down to.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:28 They're starving. Yeah. Starving. Yeah. Okay.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:31 They're trying to get some money. They're trying to keep the lights on, I get it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:33 Yeah, but what they don't realize is that they're creating this gridlock with their docket that that they're having to spend so much more time.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:39 They get less money. They don't have the value to offer.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:42 Yeah. That's why they can't quote that price. That's a.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:44 Good point. Like understanding your value is a massive part. Yeah. Which is and I want to get to like the.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:50 I'd even say this before you get to that. Yeah. They I think they do understand their value. That's why they're quoting such a low price.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:56 That's a fair point.

Thomas Moskal 00:25:57 And that and the consumer picks up on that. Yeah. Right. So I tell people I go, look, I know most I sometimes I'll even say most people can't afford me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:06 So yeah. Because that is really I think that that is a really it's a brilliant point because like something that I talk about is that like part of running the business is also like like making sure that you're good at your craft. You have to be good at your craft. That's a part of running the business, right? It's they're they they're not two separate things. They're they're the same thing. Because if you are not good, you're not going to be confident in your abilities and you're going to be charging dirt and you're not going to be making any money, right? So which I want to get it to, like, you focus on, like high profitability, low overhead.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:37 Oh yeah. And yeah. So what are some keys to that? What keys? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, low overhead.

Thomas Moskal 00:26:44 I don't have a physical office. Yep. Okay. I run a virtual.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:47 Does that does that ever affect trying to get clients.

Thomas Moskal 00:26:50 No, no I mean, look, I have a virtual office. I can get a conference room. Okay? You know, I pay $60 an hour. $80 an hour. You know, they're always like, do you want the $40 an hour conference room? I'm like, no, give me the huge one. It's like this boardroom. The table is like 30ft long with a bunch of chairs, and it's just me and a client. Yeah, that's like, give me that one for 80. An extra $20 an hour. I mean, what are we doing here? Yeah, right. I mean.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:11 What's what's the reason why why you do that? Why I do that?

Thomas Moskal 00:27:14 Yeah, because I'm trying to make an impression on a client.

Thomas Moskal 00:27:17 I don't keep an office. Okay, but if we need to meet, let's meet somewhere. Man. This place, it looks. It's nice. So what do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:25 You think it is? Something I always notice is like the who you hired as a as an as your attorney. It was like an ego thing for the client. And so I, I think you're 100% dead on. I think that that was the brilliant move. Like, why do you think that is though? Because they it's like it's almost like a badge of honor to know that, like they have hired the good attorney. You know what I mean? So why do you think that is?

Thomas Moskal 00:27:46 Well, I don't I'm if I'm gonna try and understand your question, they want to know that as a good attorney because of the office.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:54 It's almost like they're showing off their attorney. Right. Like, because I've had I've I've seen it, you know, like, that's my attorney. Like, they, they, they're like showing off to other people, almost like that's their guy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:04 So like you're conveying that to those clients, which I think is brilliant, like the you're the guy, you got the big conference room and everything. But I do wonder, like what it is about those, that clientele that they need, that guy that is the or the attorney, I would say guy that the attorney that is like the good attorney. Well, I.

Thomas Moskal 00:28:21 Don't think the conference room has anything to do with it. I was just bringing that up as look. I keep my overhead low. I don't keep a physical office, whatever that is. 1300, 1500, 2000, 3000 a month. I don't spend it. Yeah. Okay. Covid changed everything. Most clients hire me without ever meeting me. I dispose of cases without people ever meeting me in person. I do it all the time.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:41 Dismissal. Is that. Is that what you mean?

Thomas Moskal 00:28:42 Or enter a plea written entry of plea. Okay. You know they're out. You know, even if they're in state, I almost never meet them.

Thomas Moskal 00:28:48 And so the conference room is something some people want to meet. And it changed. A lot of the attorneys are now there. Like they have those offices and they go, yeah, after Covid everything did change. And then you could just zoom, clients like that too. They don't have to leave their house.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:01 So that's what's so it's interesting for us because we've been I saw the shift right around like 2014, 2015 where because 2010, I graduated law schools. And that was when I was like, we were meeting everyone in person. Everybody. Yeah. And then right around 14 or 15 is when it really shifted. And then we started getting to the point where, like we weren't meeting, we we would sign up the client over the phone or, you know, they would electronically and then we'd send them a check. We would never meet that person. And that I always found that wild. Like, it's just such a bizarre thing to me. Like, I would at least want to meet my attorney.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:35 It's a it's a different world than what it used to be.

Thomas Moskal 00:29:38 I would probably want to meet my attorney before or after the case is going. Yeah, probably. Maybe before. But here's the thing that look, I paid and most people would go, hey, your website, you paid that much for the design of it. You paid that much.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:52 Really important website. It's important.

Thomas Moskal 00:29:53 I go, I go, yeah, I mean, this is what actually gives you legitimacy. Somebody looks you up, you know, that's why I was I, I'm happy that the prosecutor's office. I was in the paper a lot. So if somebody looks me up, they're not. They don't think like, am I sending money to a Nigerian?

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:08 You know, such a gift to you? You know what I mean? Like that? Yeah. That was such a gift.

Thomas Moskal 00:30:11 But, you know, I went to the DUI unit for a reason. You know, the high profile cases. You know, the news.

Thomas Moskal 00:30:17 Loves a DUI death case. You know, they follow them, they track them. You get a lot of those out here. Yeah. Is it because.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:23 Of the casinos?

Thomas Moskal 00:30:24 Yeah. It's just drinking and dry. I don't know if there's more here than anywhere else, but we. Yeah, we get a lot of them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:30 Because that's, it's one of those things where like, I wouldn't necessarily consider like out in Missouri or any of the counties really any of the DUI units as like, like high profile because like, you don't I wouldn't say we see we do see death cases from but not nearly so.

Thomas Moskal 00:30:44 Like you probably heard about the Las Vegas Raider Henry Ruggs. Remember, he killed somebody 146 miles an hour? That would have been my case if I was at the office. Yeah. Right. That was a huge one. the one I did with the cyclist. That was a huge one. there's a case. I'm defending cases now that are DUI death cases. So when the media is all over.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:02 When you wanted to go to that unit, was it because you wanted to be a high profile prosecutor or that initial or eventually you, you thought, yeah, I might go out on my own?

Thomas Moskal 00:31:12 Well, yeah. I always had the inkling that I might go out on my own. But the way you started the prosecutor's office, you do general litigation. Those are the garbage cases. Yeah. So if a murderer makes it to general litigation, like this is what we call a track murder. Like homeless on homeless. Probably barely provable. Right, right. Or else the homicide team's keeping it right. And then they have a sex team, and they have a domestic violence team. And they got the DUI team, and they have the guns team. They got the gang unit, right? And you're trying to ascend to those positions to get more serious cases? Sure. And so when I was about two years in, there was an opening for domestic violence, and there's opening for the DUI team.

Thomas Moskal 00:31:48 And I put in for domestic violence, of course, because the DUI team at that point was considered, you're a pariah. They sent the trouble. Like, these same guys have been on that unit for a long time. nobody wanted to go there. And, the domestic violence thing wasn't going to happen for me. the Ada told me, he goes, what do you think about the DUI team? And I said, no, I'd go do it. And I got over there. And so it wasn't. I wish I could say I had it all planned at home. Sure. But I didn't, you know, I fell into it. I was over there, I go. Next thing I know, like every sentencing I go into. The cameras are there, right? every case I'm on, the cameras are there at arraignment. And then, you know, I stopped watching the news because the DUI death makes the news. I'm like, I know when I go in to work the next morning.

Thomas Moskal 00:32:32 Yeah. I'd rather not know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:34 Yeah, I'd.

Thomas Moskal 00:32:34 Rather the case just hit my desk when it hits my desk.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:36 Yeah, it was ruining the surprise. It's like. It's like, knowing what you're going to get before Christmas morning.

Thomas Moskal 00:32:40 But when I got there, the guys were like, if you're ever thinking about going in a private practice, this is the place to be. DUI misdemeanors. All you do is accident, reconstructionist and car accidents. So if you want to go do plaintiff side stuff and I've done plaintiffs, you know, I came out these plaintiffs firm always need trial attorneys, right? That's right. And so yeah, I go to trial. I do trials for them sometimes. And so yeah, those guys were kind of right there. Like you kind of pick up those skills. Yeah. Along the way.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:05 You know something that we've noticed is like of all the practice areas, criminal defense is one of the hardest to scale. It's really hard to have to grow a big firm because you'll see like injury firms, there's all over the country.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:18 There's there's scaling. There's you even see with family law attorneys, estate planning attorneys like they can scale. But there's something about criminal defense that's really hard to get. I've seen it done before, but it's it's it's rare. So I was going to ask you what you thought it is.

Thomas Moskal 00:33:32 I mean, I'm pretty new to the game. Yeah. All right. So I'm three years in, but I'll tell you, I, I got my mind working on it. I have friends that were on huge P.I. firms. And the problem. The thing with that is, when you get a case, there's it's not like, oh, I gotta go down to the jail and visit somebody right now. No, there's a hearing tomorrow. He's got a probation revocation hearing next week I gotta prepare for. It's like, get the medical records, get them treated. Case manager. Do everything on it. Yeah, until we file. And then you can have, like, some attorney that probably doesn't know what he's doing.

Thomas Moskal 00:34:01 Like, do the filings and just go take some depos. I mean, that's the kind of the way they run it. So maybe there's something to it with that, with the family law firms. I don't know how they're doing it, how they scale it. I just know there's so much work and family law and not enough attorneys want to do it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:17 Well, yeah. Well, is is the way the the one of the keys is like they have evergreen retainers where like and it's, it's not like criminal offense where it's like a flat fee. But if they have an evergreen retainer, it's just it keeps replenishing. They're never in the negative. So if the client stops paying, it dips below whatever the limit is on their evergreen retainer. They just stop working on the case so they're never out money. But if as long as they have a steady supply of of clients and they can get the attorneys, they can hire enough attorneys, they can just they're just printing cash and that's how they're able to do it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:45 But I mean, the hard part of that is like hiring the right attorneys. They're gonna want to stick around. It's it's hard finding attorneys, but like, And it's I'm oversimplifying it, but it's easier than you might think. But with criminal defense like you, I the big part of it is, is that and family law has this problem too. But because they're always in court but they're billing every single hour for it. Criminal defense. You're taking a flat fee. You're in court all the time. It's really, really hard to do other stuff other than being in court all the freaking time. Because you have the morning docket, the afternoon docket, sometimes the night, depending on where you are, like a night docket, which can be really tough.

Thomas Moskal 00:35:20 Yeah, yeah. You know, I got some guys, a lot of guys I know they run around with, like, chickens with their heads cut off. Yeah. Doing it. I mean, I look at their calendar, I go, how many appearances.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:29 Do you have? Because they're. And they're not charging enough. That's that's part of the problem.

Thomas Moskal 00:35:31 Yeah. I mean, I guess that's part of the problem. but I know that's not the way I operate. That's just not the way I operate. And I'm fortunate enough that. Look, I saved up enough money before I left, and then I just started making money, and then I started getting my, you know, ducks in a row as far as having the website down. But, yeah, I don't have an assistant. I keep my overhead low. I do my own court filings. you know, with zoom now, I mean, your court appearances, you can zoom in for your court appearance.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:59 That's a really good point. That's something where, I had not I had not thought about that before. For criminal defense. If you can do zoom that, that's that's a gift.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:07 Because most criminal defense appearances are. You wait around for an hour for your case to get called in.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:11 It's two.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:12 Minutes. Yep. Yeah. Well, what they have done and I've noticed in a lot of counties in Missouri back in person for criminal like it's a lot of our injury stuff is, is it's zoom. We use WebEx. But Illinois a lot of web we do use zoom over in Illinois. Right. Because in Saint Louis, you practice on both sides of river for the most part. But like with criminal defense, I've heard it's mostly like in person.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:34 I still show up in person, though. Yeah I do, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:36 Well, if you if you batch your docket, you can put everything on one one day if you if as long as they're all, you know, in the same county the key.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:43 Look these guys when I went into private, they all go there's two ways you do it. All right. You either.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:47 Take a lot.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:48 Of cases and don't charge a lot. Or you take a few cases and charge a lot. Yeah. And I go, why would you ever do the former?

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:55 Yeah, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:56 No, I'm with you.

Thomas Moskal 00:36:57 Well, and I go, unless you can't do the latter.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:00 I think it's an ego thing, you know, like, oh, another case, I get another case. It's like, almost like a dopamine hit. Well, it's like it's.

Thomas Moskal 00:37:05 Like Rick Ross said. He's like, we don't leave no money on the table, man. Right. Yeah. If they can only pay 1500, get that 1500. And it's like, you know, I, I get that, I get that, but there's a couple guys out here in Vegas who have scaled and they have a bunch of attorneys working for them. And I'll tell you, here's here's the big problem. Somebody comes to hire me for criminal defense. They're like former chief deputy district attorney. This guy's the man. Right. He's got deep connection. Salaries all over the news. Everything's there. Yeah, well, when he comes to hire me, he wants to hire me. He doesn't want my associates showing up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:40 It's a really good.

Thomas Moskal 00:37:40 Negotiating the case, being in court. And these guys who have scaled always have their newer attorneys showing up to court on the cases and find that that's a way to run your business. But at the same time, like is a disservice to the client. And they're getting so many cases again. Are they are they giving the best? I'm trying to get favorable outcomes for my client. I'm not trying to process cases through. But that goes back to a point that you said earlier, like, you know, it's hard to scale because of whatever, whatever. But at the same time, like if I or you said you need to know how to practice to run a good business, I disagree with that. Interesting. Look, I was on the other side for a long time, looking around, knowing I could do better than these guys. Yeah, there's a lot of people who are there. It's. It's just like, I just get the cases. Just sign the cases, just sign the cases.

Thomas Moskal 00:38:32 Because finding a good attorney's like finding a good mechanic. It's like finding a good doctor. Yeah. You're an attorney. I'm an attorney. I try to find a good doctor. I have no idea if my doctor is good or not. And then he fixes me and I go At least when I leave there, I go, oh, you know, I still have that, cyst under my eyelid or something. He didn't fix it. But with criminal law or law in general, you don't know the case is over. And it's like, did the case go the way it should have gone? Could somebody have done better?

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:01 They don't know. I think with I think with enough I think there's enough information out there with, with injury specifically because there are if I didn't know specifically like how injury cases work because the whole game for, for us is bad faith. We want to pin the insurance company in a in a corner with bad policy and pop the policy. Right? Yeah, but I would say over half of injury attorneys don't even understand that.

Thomas Moskal 00:39:25 They don't even know how to pop up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:26 And so that's.

Thomas Moskal 00:39:27 Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:27 You're right. So they're yeah. So their business is is is hurting because we get so many. We pop the policy so many times where it's so much more money for the firm.

Thomas Moskal 00:39:38 But how does the consumer know that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:41 Well I'm not even saying the consumer may not know.

Thomas Moskal 00:39:43 It, but that's how you're getting your cases. That's what you're saying. You're saying you got to know how to practice so consumers understand. You practice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:50 I'm really more talking about the health of the business because, yeah, because my profits are way higher than the guys that don't know what they're doing when it comes to bad faith. So, okay, they're skimming by.

Thomas Moskal 00:39:59 But if you're if you're popping policies, you're actually litigating. Well and some of the not.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:03 Always in Missouri. That is our bad faith statute. So favorable.

Thomas Moskal 00:40:06 Oh, you can pop a policy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:07 We can live with that. We have pre-lit and. Oh, okay.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:10 So now there's there's one insurance company. It's American Family. Sometimes I'll say two where they'll make you a pop up policy at verdict, but otherwise a lot of the other ones will not make you you will you. We've had we had four last year. We didn't file suit on them. So it's. Yeah. You don't need like on several of them the the statutes so favorable when you have them in the corner you got them in a corner and you pay it.

Thomas Moskal 00:40:32 So you're making more per case because you're absolutely you're able to get higher value out of these cases. But I'll tell you, the business I see is pre-lit personal injury firms out here sign as many cases as you can. Sign them, sign and sign them. We're settling, settling, settling, settling. And yeah, they're not getting as much as some of the better firms out here. But the consumers, I'll tell you. My stepmother, right? She's, Look, she's Filipino, right? And she's not the most educated person.

Thomas Moskal 00:41:01 Her daughter is an attorney. I'm an attorney. My son's godmother is a district court criminal judge. I mean, attorneys everywhere. We throw a birthday party, attorneys all over the place. Her niece gets in a car accident. She tells about, tells me about. On the afternoon we're sitting there at dinner, she goes, I already called Paul Powell. And he's one of these business billboard lawyers who has commercial going. More lawyer, less fee, more lawyer, less fee. She already called him. They already signed with him. Didn't even what family full of attorneys. Right. And I go, this is eye opening because, that's what consumers are kind of going for. And so they don't know who's actually doing a better job? They. They don't. They don't.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:41 I don't disagree with that at all. I really don't.

Thomas Moskal 00:41:43 Once they get signed, what they. Then they start doing their research. Now there's a lien on the case. Yep. The other attorney wants their cut acting like they did all this work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:50 I do think, at least with injury, the clients are becoming more informed because we we have we have done a better job as a bar generally as like like educating clients. It's like compared to, like criminal defense attorneys because it just we we do a lot more marketing. It's just it's just a different market. But overall, I would still say generally they don't know the difference for like. They're they're they're more educated than what they used to be. But they're, they really don't I mean, they I use this example, I think yesterday talking to somebody where, I handled early on in my career, I handled a family law case for a buddy. And I probably got mopped. Like, they probably mopped the floor with me. Yeah, they probably did. I don't know, I I'm not a family law attorney, but I here's what I do remember. When I left, my client was like high fiving me and like, happy you fought for and and their client was like an experienced family attorney.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:40 Was like yelling at them in the court. Outside the courtroom. So like my client. Like it was like, how do you make the client feel? Is really what it comes down to. And they neither one of them probably. Have any idea who got a better deal than the other one? Like, they really don't know, and I don't even know. And I was like, I was on the case. So, like, it really does come down. Like how you make them feel.

Thomas Moskal 00:42:58 But that kind of goes to my point of. It's not how good of an attorney you are. That dictates the business. But I get your point. You're saying, well, no, you can increase your profits by being a better attorney, especially if you're in a contingency fee based thing. But I would also say this. You got to sign the big money cases. Yeah. So if you got a guy out here who's like, just yap in case. I mean, Vegas is crazy because all the California attorneys came in.

Thomas Moskal 00:43:19 Now, Morgan and Morgan's advertising here.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:21 Yeah, they just came in.

Thomas Moskal 00:43:22 Sweet, sweet James is out here, right? And so this has been a big influx the past few years, but everybody's been making their business. Just signing cases, signing cases. And then. Yeah, if you get a big one yeah. Well then you go over and get Brian Spanish. You get panache Boyle like hey, we'll sign you in. He litigated it. That's right. You get a big thing. He splits it with half on you. You didn't do anything. So the whole businesses get the cases. And the criminal defense thing is the same way. Get the cases, get the cases. so I think you could scale it is my point. well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:48 How have you kept off that? How have you fought off that temptation to just sign more cases?

Thomas Moskal 00:43:52 I just take what comes to me. So I did Google ads for for, like, one month. Yeah. And I was like, wow, it's effective if you're the first one.

Thomas Moskal 00:44:00 They call because I go, did you even go to my site? Do you even know who I am? Nope nope nope nope nope nope. They're ready to pay over the phone because I'm good on the phone. You ever.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:08 Tried LSATs?

Thomas Moskal 00:44:10 what is that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:10 Which are similar. It's, it's they're local search ads. You should try that, too, because you only get charged for the actual phone call, not for the click.

Thomas Moskal 00:44:17 Yeah, I hate it, though. You know, because. Yeah. First of all, instead of me getting the warm lead, which means they kind of already did their research and know who I am, or they got a referral. Right now it's a cold lead and now I feel like I paid for it. So now I feel like I want to close it no matter what. Right. Not say I'm against it. It works.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:33 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:44:34 But I saw like how quickly volume can escalate for me. And I'm doing it all on my own. I need such a small sliver of the market, like such a small sliver that, I'm at this point in the year where if I don't take another case for the rest of the year, I'm fine.

Thomas Moskal 00:44:48 If the if the phone doesn't ring, I'm happy, actually, because I don't have the intake to be able to field a bunch of calls to start doing a bunch of client consults to do all that. and if I did, I'd make a killing. I'd be in the seven figures. How do you how.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:01 Do you prevent, like, I'm taking it, that you're you're marketing is fairly limited and that you're you're focusing on the pounds, right, right.

Thomas Moskal 00:45:07 Ground and pound.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:08 So how do you prevent from being like the that 55 year old attorney that they're sort of on the back end, that they're starting to see a decline in their leads? Because that's where I start to see it. That works. Your approach works for a while, and then eventually it stops working like you're you're now the old attorney.

Thomas Moskal 00:45:25 I don't think so, man. Because like I said, like the living legend who no longer with us. Bill. Terry. Yeah. I mean, at the end of his career, he's in his 70s.

Thomas Moskal 00:45:34 Everybody wants him. Why? Because he's known. And so if you've been doing it for 20 years. Like when I, when I'm 65, I will have handled so many cases. My former clients were referring clients. Did he? I mean, did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:46 He do much marketing at all?

Thomas Moskal 00:45:48 Well, it was a different era. Yeah, right. So, I mean, the guys who were killing it back in like the 90s were the first guys who, like, got on the internet and everyone was like, no, I'm Yellow Pages, right? Like, oh, they finally got on the internet. And so everybody's kind of catching up with that now. But it's still the same thing of if you're a known attorney, I'll tell you, there's a couple guys in town. they represented Henry Brooks, they represented, Paris Hilton, they represented Bruno Mars and the cocaine charge. Right? Celebrities call them. Yeah. And these guys, they you can't even find they don't even have a website, right? Because they're getting clients and they're getting high paying clients, and they're they're already getting referrals.

Thomas Moskal 00:46:29 They're the guys to get I don't they're nothing special. They do some work on the case. But that's how you want to gear yourself. You want to brand yourself that way in this day and age. I'll tell you this. I did a little social media on my own when I first went out. I started doing, you know, YouTube, TikTok IG. I actually just signed a client from two days ago. Go. I followed you on Twitter. You haven't tweeted in two years. My friend just got a DUI.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:52 That's boom, boom boom.

Thomas Moskal 00:46:53 Yeah, right. And I go, I was on my to do list to get back into it. But I understand why attorneys don't do it because I'm in that same boat. You start getting too busy and it's a lot of work and you got companies calling you saying, well, we'll do the content for you, but you still got to make the content.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:07 The content is if it's if it's it's by some company, it's not it's not going to be authentic.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:11 It's not it's not going to be you. You got to put the time in.

Thomas Moskal 00:47:13 Yeah I taught myself how to do Adobe. Like editing. Yeah. Took a videography course. I got it set up everything set up. Just got to put the time in. But that's really the next level. And none of these attorneys are doing it right, because like I said, they don't have the knowledge or they're just too busy. Yeah, because they're taking too many cases, like we said.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:31 Yeah. So I think though you could do both, you could still do the marketing and then take the case that you want to take and not take the others.

Thomas Moskal 00:47:37 And even with the paid marketing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:38 Yeah, with the paid marketing and I with the way you're doing it, I'm not even saying you spend a bunch of money. I would just say at least do a little bit that way. You're kind of your name still out there because I've seen it a lot where like, I mean, I've talked to thousands of attorneys at this point where you, they kind of get on that back end and they almost unless you are like, you fill that void, you became that guy that that's like he's trying the case all the time.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:59 He's in the news all the time. That's a little different if you become that. I'll agree with you 100%, but you got to fill that void. That means you gotta be trying those big cases. You got to be getting those big cases. You'll keep getting the referrals. That's. But even the the top guy out, Scott Rosenblum in Saint Louis, he's like the top guy. He still puts on a Christmas party every year for all of his clients. He just still does the marketing out there because it is highly competitive. It's probably, I don't know if it's as highly competitive out here, but it's extremely competitive out there when the when You.

Thomas Moskal 00:48:26 Got a market? Yeah. No, I agree, I'm not against paid. I'm not against. Like I said, I did it for a month at work, but I got inundated. Right? Right. And I got inundated because I needed to have business processes set up more. And so I focused more on that. And then during the time it's like, well, things are still just coming my way.

Thomas Moskal 00:48:43 How are they coming to me? I guess I'm just fortunate. Is it going to last like that forever? I don't want to be the guy who's like, oh, well, business was great. And now my phone is not ringing. I don't want to be that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:52 There's this trend that's kind of where people are, they're following like lawyers on TikTok and Instagram. They're kind of goofy. And you see, some of them are like, I know you're not a good lawyer. Like, it's like. It's like it's just you're not. And because you know them, you know, and they're they're starting to get those leads. And I wonder what you think about that because you I do think we're going to start to see more of those, those lawyers getting those leads as opposed to like us, you know. And so we got to find a way to kind of combat that a little bit. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Well, no.

Thomas Moskal 00:49:21 I want to get I know, I think TikTok, I think Instagram and TikTok and Facebook ads.

Thomas Moskal 00:49:25 I think they're great. Yeah. You know, but like you said, I want to do it a certain way. And maybe I'm a perfectionist about it. Those guys are just going out and they're just doing it, and doing it is better than not doing it and saying, I'm gonna do it better when I do it. but yeah, no, that's definitely you want to be out there. I've had people from TikToks I posted two years ago hit me up and go, yeah, you know, I always follow you on TikTok. Why don't you post more? Now they got a case. Yeah, and they hit me up. You want to be top of mind? And so no, I love I love doing all that. I think that's something that needs to be done. And nobody's doing it right. You know, there's a couple guys I see what they're doing, but nobody's doing it right. It's something you gotta sit back and kind of study it. but what it comes down to is low overhead, bank profits away.

Thomas Moskal 00:50:11 Have money in the bank to where? If you don't get a case for two months or three months. Look, you're. We're in solo business here, right? I can't have my I can't be living month to month on my business or in my personal life. Right? Like, I have to have, like, set out to where it's like, if I don't get a case in six months, I'm still okay. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:31 We have we have 20 something employees. So, like, I would lose my mind.

Thomas Moskal 00:50:35 I gotta get in the green every month.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:36 I lose my mind if I didn't get half a case in six months. So.

Thomas Moskal 00:50:40 So you're in the red for the first three.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:41 Weeks, and then.

Thomas Moskal 00:50:42 The fourth week, you're like, all right, we.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:43 Made money.

Thomas Moskal 00:50:44 Right? That's the light. That's kind of the pressure you're under a little bit.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:47 Well, I mean if that, if that happened. Yeah. But we we're generating leads every day and like signing a case every day.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:52 So it's a little different. But I would I would lose my mind if like if I, if we would have to lay off a ton of people if we didn't take on a case for something. So you gotta be right.

Thomas Moskal 00:51:00 But how long did it take for you to get that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:03 That's probably about four to that. Well, we we grew fast. We we started hiring more than we should have. So we probably we we were probably at 26 within like four, probably eight years of practicing. And then we invested a Invested a bunch of technology to then lower that cost. So we lowered what we needed when it comes to employees. And so that was that was great. So then we dipped below 20 and then were back. I think we were like 21 or 22 I think is where we are now.

Thomas Moskal 00:51:33 But how when you first started out, how long did you bootstrap it with just you and whoever you partnered with like, hey, we're doing everything. Yeah, we.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:40 Hire I didn't partner with anybody.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:42 So I started like early on. It was just me for like the first six months. And then I went and I was doing criminal defense and injury, which.

Thomas Moskal 00:51:50 Was which was a great thing. It was good into each other.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:53 Yeah. And then it became a burden because I couldn't move the injury cases. But then I had hired I had two employees.

Thomas Moskal 00:51:59 First hire was what.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:01 She was assistant. Yeah. I can't remember what we called her. I think probably just legal assistance, probably what we called her. She was a the daughter of a friend of mine who was who worked at the injury firm that I had left. And so. Okay. And then I hired his other daughter. So I had two employees, and then one of them, she went to Cambridge. She she went somewhere else because she just graduated from college, because she was working there, like, part time. And then I finally made my first official hire was like, more like a case manager role. Okay, then then another case manager role.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:32 Then I partnered with a guy. We lasted for 18 months, which was.

Thomas Moskal 00:52:36 It was a lesson.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:37 From that. That's right. So, that was kind of interesting. I ended.

Thomas Moskal 00:52:40 Bad because.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:41 What was funny, he.

Thomas Moskal 00:52:42 Wasn't pulling his weight. Well, no.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:43 It was interesting. It was. It always comes down to money. Right. So he and I both did well before. We both did extremely well together. And then we both done extremely well since. And it was just a matter of like I think part of it's money, I think, but part of it's because we it's funny when we split we all, we both got big checks from the firm. It was interesting. The probably more of that down came down to vision, you know like of like, okay, where's the firm going to be headed? Kind of a thing, I think. I think that was a big.

Thomas Moskal 00:53:09 Part of it. That's why you wanted to grow it big. And he's like, I'm fine with it being small.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:12 Not even necessarily that I think we both a lot of like case strategy on cases sometimes I think that was part of it. You know the type of people we should hire. Like, a lot, of lot of times, like in the way we did it is we it was almost like veto power. Like, if you want to do this, great. If I agree with it as well. or if you want to do it, I don't want to do it. You can't do it. You can't.

Thomas Moskal 00:53:32 Be the king of your.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:33 Own castle. Right. And so at a certain point, I think both of us were kind of like I was the managing partner. I think that I think there were times where, like, he kind of also wanted to be to it was it was an interesting dynamic. I mean, it was and we parted on good ways to it's just it was it was an interesting thing because you normally see whenever a firm splits, everyone's fighting and everything and everything, but we, we, we talked seven days later, we split.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:54 It was it was like we signed an agreement. Boom. Done. Right. So it was an interesting thing how it all played out.

Thomas Moskal 00:54:01 I've seen some guys I know some guys, especially in the injury world. I go to these mass talk conferences, I meet some of the big guys.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:06 And it's interesting. Why do you go to those? Why? Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 00:54:09 It's just like stepping into a different universe because it's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:11 Because it's out here. So it's it's no, no.

Thomas Moskal 00:54:13 Actually I go on to other ones. Yeah. Like I said, when I was heavily recruited after I left the DA's office, all these personal injury firms want to hire me. Right. and some of the really, really good ones. Yeah. Because, you know what they say. Trial attorney. They're like, you can't make one. They go like, it's like a unicorn, man. I mean, you're already comfortable in a courtroom. You already know the judges. You know the rules of evidence you could put a trial on like it's nobody's business.

Thomas Moskal 00:54:36 If we just hand you the case and all the depositions and everything's done. like you could go in and do it, and they go, man, could you come in and do it? I did a few, and I said, but you're handing me the case and everything's not done. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:47 That's the I.

Thomas Moskal 00:54:48 Don't like it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:48 I tried I tried a case. it was a while ago, but, like, I got, I got the case 30 days before, and it just was not ready. It was like. But it was like the point where the case wasn't getting continued and just. It sucks trying to shoot a case. It just it you it's just you're like, gosh damn it. You know, like all these things you would have done differently. It's just it's so frustrating to to do something like that.

Thomas Moskal 00:55:08 But yeah, they recruited me and then they're like, I was I did some work for them and they're going and delving into that world, too. So I tag along to the conferences and they're great parties.

Thomas Moskal 00:55:17 Yeah, but you really kind of see, like, you know, how that world is operating and how some of these personal injury firms have kind of migrated towards that because, you know, it seems to be a lot of money. There's there was definitely a huge wave. That wave was kind of settling down.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:31 What's interesting is this kind of drives me nuts. It's that they'll advertise that they're doing these. So there's a new mass tort, right? They're they're advertising that they're doing this and they sign them. And they said they signed up, you know. Yeah. And it's like it's my, my the the the thing that I look at, it's like you're not doing those cases though, and you're advertising that you are doing those cases. And that's the part it's like.

Thomas Moskal 00:55:53 No, that's what Morgan Morgan is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:54 Doing. Right. Right. Well that's true. Yeah. And it's but it's it is. There's something just not right about it. You know what I mean? That's not your vision for your firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:03 Yeah, and good for them for signing up. They get the money at the end and all that.

Thomas Moskal 00:56:06 I heard sweet James. I heard he moved to Puerto Rico. So he he's, you know, making a billion. He's a billionaire attorney.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:11 At this point. I've been good for him, you know?

Thomas Moskal 00:56:13 But, you know. Is he really getting good outcomes? Is he trying cases? No, he's a referral machine.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:17 So I interviewed I don't know his his title. He might be a CEO, but I mean, he's a sharp guy and I it was interesting. Like they're like they've got it dialed in. They do have that firm dialed in, which is, I think it's a cool name too. It's memorable. I think it's more memorable, like Morgan and Morgan, but what's what's great. And I don't know if Sweet James has this component. What makes Morgan and Morgan great is they do have the trial attorneys that can that can actually try the cases and that's that. That makes them way different than the vast majority of volume firms where most volume firms don't have that element of it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:52 That's right. Which is it definitely is a differentiator.

Thomas Moskal 00:56:55 They want that element. Yeah. But it's hard to find good help. Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:59 Have you ever thought about taking on a partner yourself?

Thomas Moskal 00:57:02 yeah. All the time. Yeah. I mean, in theory, it sounds great. In theory, it sounds great. in practice, it's It's like getting into a marriage, right? You better have.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:11 Exactly like getting.

Thomas Moskal 00:57:12 You better have your values align. Yeah. And this is a long term thing. And here's the other thing. Being completely solo. My overheads low, right. I can be a workaholic sometimes, right? I have a hard time delegating. Right. Because I feel like it's not going to get done. Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:29 And you have no staff, right?

Thomas Moskal 00:57:30 No staff. Yeah. And it usually doesn't get done right if I. That's why I don't hire staff. It usually doesn't get done right and then I get bent out of shape. But here's the other thing is I like to be lazy sometimes too.

Thomas Moskal 00:57:40 Right. And I don't need another partner looking at me like, how come you're not working so hard? And I also don't want to feel the same way towards them either, you know? And, I did think about partnering up with someone. We almost did it. We almost did it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:53 How close did you get?

Thomas Moskal 00:57:55 we almost. We were at the bank to know the bank account. Okay. Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:59 So tell me this story. You're walking to the bank?

Thomas Moskal 00:58:02 Yeah. We're there. And I guess her office manager had made the appointment at a bank that doesn't do lawyer trust accounts. Right. Which I'm like.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:11 Okay. Are you like, is that a sign, you know?

Thomas Moskal 00:58:13 Well, to me, I'm like, this is why I don't delegate anything. I was like.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:18 How could you.

Thomas Moskal 00:58:18 Even make that mistake? Right? We're here for an appointment. I took time out of my day. Either way, it was a good thing. But, you know, I just saw some red flags that came up, and it actually ended up really bad.

Thomas Moskal 00:58:28 Where, I said, okay, look, we're not going to do this, but there's a couple, like, clients. I'm just trying to do purely criminal defense, personal injury kind of thing right now. I got some business clients. she was more of a business attorney doing contracts, business deals, whatever. And I had some business clients who were going to be recurring revenue, like basically paying a monthly fee. Flat fee, not even retainer like monthly flat fee for, like, a general counsel position. Wow. And, she ended up not doing the work. They start contacting me, and then they're like, what's going on? I'm trying to contact her. Next thing you know, she's going radio silent clients wondering what's going on. Long story short, she's told I think she's still about 20. 30 grand from people. Oh my God. And then I just went ahead and cleaned up the mess. I went ahead and just.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:12 But you all had not partnered, right? We had not completely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:15 You're just cleaning. You were cleaning up. You had to clean up the mess.

Thomas Moskal 00:59:17 Well, you know, I had introduced the client, so I'm like, I feel like, look, I want to do it. And then a couple of her clients that I didn't even know were hitting me up, they can't get in touch with her. And so I, I got their cases squared away with somebody else. And, and I'm not saying all partners are like that, but at that point, at this point, now that I've built what I've built, why do I want to split it up with somebody?

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:42 Yeah. No, I don't disagree. I don't ever partner with somebody again. It'll it'll I just never will. You know, it's I'm the same way. It's I don't want that same obligation. The, the one of my as a practicing attorney, one of my favorite days was the day we split up because I all that pressure of, like, you know, the same thing you talked about, like, what's he doing? Like, does he think that I'm not, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:05 You're like. You're like, are they questioning what I'm doing? Am I? Question what he's doing kind of thing. Like, all that was gone. I was like, okay, a fresh start, kind of a thing. It was it was such a relief. So you're 100% right about that. What do you deal with? How do you deal with situations like you're in court? Clients calling you. They can't get Ahold of you, so they'll leave you a voicemail. I mean, you don't have someone answering your phone. Or do you have an answering service?

Thomas Moskal 01:00:25 Have anybody answering my phone?

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:26 Yeah. Any issues with that?

Thomas Moskal 01:00:27 You know? No, not at all. I mean, look, I, I tell my clients this, you call me. It goes to voicemail. I'm gonna give you a call back. All right. Text me. Text messages go straight to my. My business line. Goes to my personal phone, I see it. Or email me. Same thing.

Thomas Moskal 01:00:43 I'm gonna see it, and I will, I promise you. I will text you back and let you know. Like when I get out of court, I'll give you a call. You know, these these are the things that separate me from these other guys. Where it's like you're selling peace of mind comfort, right? You ever take a vacation? Yeah. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:01 And do you still answer the phone on vacation and all that? Or how do you deal with that?

Thomas Moskal 01:01:05 I do, I do if I have service. You know, I let my clients know if I'm going to be out of town. I said, look, I'm going to be out of town. Shoot me. Look, if you shoot me an email, it's cool. If it's an emergency. Text me or whatever. I'll give you a call. But yeah, I still I still get to my phone. I mean, I just don't see the sense in having a gatekeeper who goes. Law office. Yeah. All right, let me see if he's available.

Thomas Moskal 01:01:27 And then checking with me and then getting back with the person. It's like I can text them back. Just as easy to go. I'll call you tomorrow. Right. Is it an emergency? I'll call you tomorrow. If it's an emergency, I'll call you this evening.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:38 So, what is your. What's your typical day like? Other than like. So let's. I mean, are you spending a lot of time in court now or do you like. So like, for example, today, today or today? Saturday, yesterday Friday, Friday.

Thomas Moskal 01:01:50 The courts are pretty pretty pretty dead. So.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:52 So what's Monday look like for you? It's it's Veteran's day. So are your courts open?

Thomas Moskal 01:01:56 Yeah. Monday is Veteran's Day. So, you know the courts will be closed on Monday.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:58 So what about Tuesday? What's like.

Thomas Moskal 01:02:00 All right. Tuesday will be a busy day for me. Right. So, I have appearance downtown guy. We're going to appear in court. He's got an arrest warrant.

Thomas Moskal 01:02:09 We're going to get that recall so he can get booked over at the jail. That's going to be at 830. At 930. I have a big sentencing, big media case. triple death, DUI death has been the biggest DUI death in the county this year. It's getting sentenced. 930. The judge told me be there right away because they want to call it first. They have increased security, for that case, I also at the same time, I still prosecute cases in Boulder City. So we do a specialty court there really drug court conference. And Tuesday's like my heavy day there. I only go out there like five times a month. but I'm supposed to be doing a staffing on zoom from 8 to 10. I've already told them I'm not going to be there for that. so after I get done with the sentencing, that should be done around 1030, and then I'll probably just chill until I got to go to Boulder City at, around 230. Yeah. And then I'll go handle I'll, you know, it'll be a bunch of pretrial, Isles, maybe 8 or 10 prosecution cases where I'm prosecuting.

Thomas Moskal 01:03:01 Again, the defense attorneys aren't doing anything on the case. And I I've been in the game long enough. Like I know how to get the cases done right with them. and so, you know, I'll get done around five and then we'll do the specialty court, which goes from five to like seven. So it's a long day and then go pick up my son after that. yeah. That's like a typical day. So the only thing that throws a wrench in my day is if a potential client calls me out of the blue.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:28 Right. So what do you do in those situations? Because those are those can create tough situations.

Thomas Moskal 01:03:31 Sometimes I do it and.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:32 I close them.

Thomas Moskal 01:03:33 Yeah, right. Yeah. But that's going to be a half hour hour out of my day because I spend the time with them on the phone. Right. And then I get a gauge on what they need. And then if, if they do want to, sign with me, then I'll make sure I get over to my, my case thing.

Thomas Moskal 01:03:48 I've got my automated templates I've made for my retainer agreement. Spit it out. They can either sell me or the retainer agreement, but that could throw a wrench. So if I get three consults in a day. Yeah. My slow day just turned into, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:01 When you really get some work done, maybe look at some discovery. Yes. Yeah. All that? Yeah. Or they call. I need a bond hearing. It's bond hearings tomorrow. Kind of a thing that that that part can kind of throw a wrench in things to you.

Thomas Moskal 01:04:12 But that's the nature of the business. But, man, if you're doing that, you're making money.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:15 Absolutely. That's why I was wondering, like, if, like, sometimes, a receptionist can help feel those calls for you. Help? yeah, but.

Thomas Moskal 01:04:21 You know what? When these people are calling around, they're calling around, right? And so I know when I first left the DA's office, some criminal attorneys wanted me to work for them because they're like, they know I could just handle the whole case.

Thomas Moskal 01:04:31 Even the client, like, I could hand-hold like, they wouldn't have to do anything. Sure. They go. If I could just be in the office all day because whoever they call, whoever gets them on the phone first.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:41 Yeah, I can see that.

Thomas Moskal 01:04:42 You're gonna get them. Yeah. So I'll tell you, a lot of times I answer the phone, I go, hey, this is attorney Thomas Maskell, and they go, is this the attorney? I go, yeah, it is. I wasn't expecting to talk to the attorney. I was wanting to get a consultation. I go, can we schedule something? I said, well, you got me on the phone right now. What seems to be the situation? And they go. They just go into it? Yeah. Then 20 minutes later, I'm kind of giving them the lay of the land. About around 20 or 30 minutes. Now, I've done enough of these calls where it's like, not to be a businessman about it, but this is what I charge, and this is how it would proceed.

Thomas Moskal 01:05:15 does that sound unreasonable to you? Nice to hear the answer. Yeah. They go, man, that is outside of my price range. How much were you looking to spend?

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:23 So you. So you'll quote a price, but then sometimes you'll maybe, like, see what they're what they're willing to pay.

Thomas Moskal 01:05:28 Well, yeah. This is like something. It's like Alex Ramos if you follow him a little bit. Of course. It's like he says, because you've had this conversation a thousand, 10,000 times. They've had it.

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:37 Once. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:05:38 You kind of so I that's that's what I charge. And then if they can't afford that, how much were you looking to spend. Right. And then I'll hear it and then I'll go. Maybe I will take the case. Especially if we've had a good conversation. I got a good feeling they're not a problem. Client. Yeah. And I feel like I want to help them, like they're in a situation. But if it's something where I'm like, well, you know what? Let me refer you over to somebody.

Thomas Moskal 01:06:00 I got a guy he doesn't charge. He's not going to be the Thomas Maskell defense. But, look, your case is pretty simple. You're not going to jail on it, in my opinion. Call this guy. He's been doing it for 15 years. I work for him for business. He's a criminal attorney, and he's a criminal attorney. That actually refers bigger cases to me. And trust me, when he refers a case to me because he doesn't want to handle it because it's too big. It's good money. When they come to me, it's like, this is a big case. And another criminal defense attorney has said, this is the guy you want to go to.

Tyson Mutrux 01:06:27 Are the nicest. Especially a situation like that. And then they look you.

Thomas Moskal 01:06:29 Up and they're like, chief prosecutor.

Tyson Mutrux 01:06:30 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:06:31 and then I call him and I go, hey, I'm not cheap.

Tyson Mutrux 01:06:34 What are some of the things that you struggle with whenever it comes to, like, running the firm?

Thomas Moskal 01:06:40 Oh, man.

Thomas Moskal 01:06:41 Just, the normal. if I want to hire an assistant, I'm trying to get my checklist of what I would have somebody do. but ordering the discovery, Getting it. I like to make it available to my client. So creating the Dropbox share file, sharing it to them with the email. organizing the case file. I like to organize my filings by date. You know, these little things that somebody should be able to do this for me, but I gotta train them how to do it. those kinds of things kind of like, can take up a lot of time, you know, organizing as far as file retention. Right. Get the stuff scanned in. All right, let's take it off of our server. Now, we got it into, you know, was it Backblaze and then also our hard place, that's like big time cloud, file retention. Okay. Like, you could trust it. Okay. Backblaze backs up and it's like you get so many terabytes it costs most of these criminal tendencies don't want to pay for it.

Thomas Moskal 01:07:36 But you do have state bar ethical file retention guidelines. Right. And then also I have a hard copy just in case something happens with Backblaze, even though it's the most trusted one. I think I have the hard copy back that up. I spent a lot of time doing that and then bookkeeping. Right? Not that I keep my own books, but I gotta check with the bookkeepers pointing out, right? taxes, you know, subscriptions, LexisNexis. I mean, there's everything to it when you're solo, right?

Tyson Mutrux 01:08:04 It sounds like you like like everything's going, like, extremely well for you, which is. Which is awesome. I mean, have there been any, like, you know, dark moments? I've been through every emotion. Yeah, I've been through every emotion. Yeah. I want to hear about. I want to hear about the. I've heard about all good stuff. I want to hear the other stuff. Like, what's what's some of the stuff? You're like, gosh damn it.

Tyson Mutrux 01:08:20 Like, anytime we were, like, almost like thinking about hanging it up, you know what I mean? Like.

Thomas Moskal 01:08:25 Look, man, so I'm in year three. I finally had the sure moment of, like, I have enough data of every month is good, every month keeps beating the prior month, right? It's like record setting month, record setting month, record setting month. Everything's going to be fine. but, man, when you first start, you don't know, you know. Yeah. You signed two clients, but what was the next one coming? The phone didn't ring this week. What am I gonna do? You know. should I go get a job somewhere? Man, this is a lot, you know. Running around. Learning how to get from courtroom to courtroom. and at the same time, like I said, I got the two year old. I had the son. He's a small, me and his mom had broken up, so I was going through that at the same time, trying to.

Tyson Mutrux 01:09:05 At the same time. You're starting to firm. Oh, man. That's tough.

Thomas Moskal 01:09:07 It was, it was like. I remember July 2022. I was sitting there like I could not just. I just couldn't get it together. And I had all those emotions. Same thing. The partner just ripped somebody off. Right.

Tyson Mutrux 01:09:19 So, yeah. This all happened the same time. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:09:22 Come on. It always happens. When things go bad, they go bad. Yeah, right. But you come out of that and you're stronger. But, yeah, you know, the main thing is, like, are you going to be able to make money? I mean, that's what everybody's thinking. Can you make money, especially when you got job offers coming at you and they're like, I'm getting, you know, I'm an experienced attorney. I'm ten, 12 years in the game. I'm getting when I get offered. Like, this is a good salary for us.

Tyson Mutrux 01:09:43 Did anybody, did any of them get you to the point where you're like, you were like, seriously considering taking the job? Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:09:49 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:09:49 Earlier, now that I've had the the moment. Yeah. You're never like, this is the one thing. My mom, she ran a bar when I was growing up. Okay. That's an.

Tyson Mutrux 01:09:57 Interesting childhood. Yeah. Yeah, but she ran.

Thomas Moskal 01:10:00 Her own bar, and she was kind of like the this. Well, I'll call it the Queen, but she's like the king of her own universe, right? She had her own little microcosm out there. She ran stuff, man. Nobody's telling her what to do. And I always had that feeling. But I also knew this in law. Just because I. Watching my mom and watching business owners come up in law, the only way you're going to make real money's by being the business owner. Yeah, there's a reason why lawyers make a lot of money as employees, because the business is making a ton of money to pay a lawyer. 200 grand a year, 300 grand a year. How much is the firm making off of you to pay you that much? Sure.

Thomas Moskal 01:10:35 Right. But if you're making that much money. And I know if I paid somebody 300 grand a year, you'd better be busting your ass. You better be right. But as an owner, you can make 300 grand a year and not work too hard like you could potentially.

Tyson Mutrux 01:10:49 Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:10:50 I stand right here. I'll go. I'll say it. I'll go. I was working a lot harder when I was a prosecutor than I am now.

Tyson Mutrux 01:10:55 Really? Yeah. I mean, that's kind of surprising. I think that the vast majority of criminal defense attorneys that would that would hear that would think that's kind of surprising. I mean, that's that's good for you. That's excellent.

Thomas Moskal 01:11:06 I don't know. I mean, I know some attorney. I talked to them at coffee. but there's guys who have it figured out. They do have it figured out. Now, that's a small like. That's a minority of them. because everybody's trying to get a piece. But the guys who've really made a living doing it.

Thomas Moskal 01:11:23 I had a dermatologist. He asked me what kind of law I'm in. I go, oh, I'm doing criminal defense. And he goes, I have a lot of friends that are lawyers. He goes. The happiest ones are the criminal defense guys. And why? It's not paperwork intensive, right? You gotta have a personality to be able to pull it off. Well, you got to pull the clients in. but 99% of cases, just like in pie. 99% of cases are resolving. You're not going to trial on those. The guys who are having a tough time are the guys who are. And they make a business of it and they like what they're doing. But if you're doing a pointed work contract, work for the government, you're doing a lot of indigent cases, which the system needs.

Tyson Mutrux 01:11:58 And they're getting paid until the end of the.

Thomas Moskal 01:11:59 Case. Well, or they're paying you 5000 a month and you're taking a ton of cases. And then if you go to trial.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:05 Missouri's not paying that much.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:06 That's really. Yeah, that's I.

Thomas Moskal 01:12:09 Paid like 5000 a month to a contract attorney. And you're taking everything that the public defender's conflicting off of. And then the federal the federal ones pay better if you get the federal panel.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:18 Federal. Yeah. CJ panels. I was going to ask you about that. Have you thought about doing federal because those are all high dollar cases. Like they're you're not going to do anything that's under like 20 grand. You know, like it's all going to be 20 grand from CJ. Yeah. Or no I'm just talking about federal like private. Private. no.

Thomas Moskal 01:12:35 Federal case in charge. Less than six figures. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:37 You're I mean, you're getting now you're.

Thomas Moskal 01:12:38 Not getting much retained work out there okay. There's not. But if retained case comes through, you should be getting over six figures on it because.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:45 They're all big. They're all big dollar cases. Every single one of them. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:12:48 Well also the guys are facing a ton of time.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:50 Absolutely.

Thomas Moskal 01:12:51 And you know, it is what it is. But the CJA is is cool. I do want to get into it just to learn more about the federal system. I do some work with legal aid, like some 1983 cases, so I can learn how to do those things. but as far as doing appointed work, I mean, look, even if they're paying you 150 now or 170 an hour, you know, 200 an hour, whatever it is, and they're not paying that much. Yeah. It's still it's still not a great hourly rate. They're still slashing your bills, just like an insurance company with slashing insurance defense bills. You better not bill too much, you know, like you got a thousand pages of discovery charge about this much for it. It doesn't matter. But if you actually looked at it, God forbid you sit there like I do on a case and start researching a bunch of case law to make some kind of bespoke motion right there. Like you spent. How long on that motion? Ten hours.

Thomas Moskal 01:13:41 no. You're not taking any more CGA cases if you do that, right. Do you ever feel.

Tyson Mutrux 01:13:44 Like you spread yourself too thin?

Thomas Moskal 01:13:47 No, because I don't spend a lot of time, on the work, like I was a litigation monster, right? So I, I, I say this prosecutors I go against if I spend a weekend putting together three motions a weekend. Right. Which I would have to be working morning till night to put together three motions. Yeah. You're going to spend two weeks on it. Like I'm that efficient with what I do. I've practiced that much litigating.

Tyson Mutrux 01:14:10 Do you do anything other than like run the business and practice a lot? I mean, because like, like, do you have any hobbies that you do outside of work? Yeah, yeah. What do you like to do?

Thomas Moskal 01:14:18 Number one, I'm a dad. My dad, my son's five and a half now.

Tyson Mutrux 01:14:20 So other than other. Yeah. Other than being a father, what.

Thomas Moskal 01:14:23 Are the other things? I mean, that's the huge that's the huge thing.

Thomas Moskal 01:14:25 It's like reliving my own childhood. Yeah, yeah. We have I got the Nerf Warriors set up to all the Nerf guns. Got loaded up today. His mom picked him up. I said, Nerf war tomorrow morning. Pick them up. All the Nerf guns are loaded up. We're gonna do it up. I take him to his extracurricular activities. but, yeah, when I. When I have a night away from him, that's when I am trying to get my work done, right? I'm trying to, work on my automation. My document automation is the big one for you. Right. and then I'm trying to do the work on my cases and do that, but, man, I get to the gym every day around 10:00 in the morning. 1030.

Tyson Mutrux 01:15:02 Yeah. Working out is.

Thomas Moskal 01:15:02 Important. It is. And people are like, man, you're living the life. I go, I'm getting. I'm in the gym with the retired.

Tyson Mutrux 01:15:07 No, you're putting in the work, right? Gotta put in the reps.

Thomas Moskal 01:15:10 But it's like that time is available to me. yeah, I practice the guitar. Call of duty six just came out. Black ops six just came out on PlayStation. It just came out.

Tyson Mutrux 01:15:19 Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. October.

Thomas Moskal 01:15:21 Yeah. The end of October they they released it. So I'm not as into it as I was a couple of years ago. Black. I think that was more procrastination. Yeah. With the dark, the dark times of the firm. Like. But as long as you just keep putting one foot in front of the other, right? And then the firm, eventually I got the website going. And now I'm really at the point with the firm now. It's kind of an exciting time where all I got to do is turn the stove up, you know? Yeah, turn the marketing up, like you said. If I run something and I'm really thinking about it. But I had to set up my solo 401. I did a ton of research on that over the summer.

Thomas Moskal 01:16:01 I had to get that set up. I'm at the very final stages of that. Nice. And so that was like one big to do off the list. And then it's like, man, my old SEO company there, you know, I know they know what they're doing because they work with they worked with some PR firms that I was friends with and they got my stuff off. And so it's like as soon as I call them up, like, hey, let's go ahead and do it. Let's run about $3,000 a month budget on the Google Ads. Yeah, because that's about the minimum we can do until I get inundated. Let's start getting my SEO up a little bit more. I do want to get into the social media. Back into TikToks and IG like really doing it the way I do it. Just organic. I used to do it in my car. Start getting that out. And, so as far as the the hobbies, like. Yeah, I work out just to keep the machine going.

Thomas Moskal 01:16:49 I'm there for my son. And, but, you know, I don't really go out anymore or anything like that. It's more about the business. I mean, what about you? You probably focus on the business most.

Tyson Mutrux 01:16:57 So, I.

Thomas Moskal 01:16:58 Mean, you're in Vegas doing, Oh.

Tyson Mutrux 01:17:00 You just. Yeah. So are we good? I got the two business. I've got maximum lawyer and the. And then I've got the the firm so that I mean, the the firm's the the main focus and then we got maximum lawyers is a big part of it too. And yeah, we were out here for a mastermind. But yeah, I work out, I do jiu jitsu, I like to fly, I'm a pilot, I like to fly. So I think, I think having those hobbies is really important.

Thomas Moskal 01:17:19 How old are you?

Tyson Mutrux 01:17:19 41. Yeah. 40. Just a little bit younger than you. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:17:22 So my son's in Muay Thai over at this place called syndicate MMA.

Thomas Moskal 01:17:25 Sean Strickland trained. I love to do Muay Thai. And, but they have the Brazilian jiu jitsu on the other side. They got the cage and the people are training. They got they got some amateur fighters that are about to turn pro. Yeah, a couple pro fighters fighting out of there and I'm always looking at Brazilian jiu jitsu. it's just at this point it's like. And you'll see, I mean, you're 41, so you're seeing it a little bit, but you'll see when you get injured. It just.

Tyson Mutrux 01:17:51 Does. I would yeah, whenever I would, when I shook your hand, my shoulder. Pop. I had that shoulder surgery a couple of weeks ago, so I was like, oh, gosh. that was from this. From a car crash. Okay. Yeah. So that was, that was fun. But. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's it's it's tough, but it's one of those things, like, because we do work out. Because we're healthy.

Tyson Mutrux 01:18:09 Like, my recovery is not going to be that long. I mean, I mean, I have a pretty good recovery. And so I'll get back into it and stuff.

Thomas Moskal 01:18:13 In a few years, you'll see. I mean, I was just doing some push ups the other day and my wrist was like just from doing push ups. I some something happened in there, right? And I'm going to tell you what, I've been dealing with this. I don't even know how this thumb got. I don't know if I hit it against something, but it's like when I'm lifting weights, sometimes it just taps the bar a little bit. Right. Five months. It's still. It's still.

Tyson Mutrux 01:18:35 You need to go get that checked out by a doctor.

Thomas Moskal 01:18:37 Yeah. What are they going to do?

Tyson Mutrux 01:18:38 I don't know.

Thomas Moskal 01:18:39 When you break a finger, they can't even have.

Tyson Mutrux 01:18:40 To go in there and take a little scar.

Thomas Moskal 01:18:42 Tissue. The healing time is insane. So I'm a little bit reluctant to get on the mat, but I've heard great things.

Thomas Moskal 01:18:47 You don't have the cauliflower ear?

Tyson Mutrux 01:18:49 No. It's funny. This ear swelled up and I had to drain it with a needle, so like that. So it's because if you drain it, you'll. You're fine. But it did break the cartilage in my left ear to. So that's what caused the when the cartilage breaks. But there's something about it. It's like, it's, it's kind of like trying to case in a way where, like you, sometimes you'll take your lumps and it's, it's not necessarily that you lose, but sometimes you'll take your lumps in a trial, you know, like you're like the other side gets me get some good shots in. And like, whenever you are, like, you're rolling with somebody, somebody. Sometimes people get you in a really compromised position and it sucks. You know, it really sucks. But you know what? You also get other people. So like you, you're humbled sometimes, which you need that a little bit and grounds you. But then also there's the the confidence part where you're, you're rolling somebody else and you're, you're getting that position and you're making them tap.

Tyson Mutrux 01:19:39 And so there's a lot of that and there's a lot of the camaraderie when it comes to to rolling with people. And you're rolling with the same people over and over and over again and learn these different techniques and learn these little bitty things. And it's kind of like you're talking about like the hormones thing about like, like it's their one call they've done. You've done it a thousand times. It's the same thing with with jiu jitsu. Like I'm a white belt. I'm at, three stripes. And so if I, if I roll with a brand new person, I know so much more and I don't know anything. Here's the thing. Right? But I know so much more just because I've gone just a little bit longer, that that's what's really cool. You start to see those little bitty things.

Thomas Moskal 01:20:15 It's very intellectual.

Tyson Mutrux 01:20:16 Yes. Yes, it very is. Because you're you're not making one move at a time. You're making like 12 moves at a time. So it's like 12 move chess. Like there's so many different things you do in every given moment, but both sides are trying to figure it out at the exact same time.

Tyson Mutrux 01:20:29 And so that's what there's a lot there is a lot, a lot of thinking involved. But it's also it's very physical too. And the I think the humbling part of it is probably the most important part of it though. It's just a really ground you. because I think we do need that sometimes. Yeah, I.

Thomas Moskal 01:20:43 Want I want to try it. I want to get into it. I know I would really enjoy it. I'm a little reluctant about the because of the injury side of it. Yeah. that's why I stopped playing basketball. Those things like, you know, being injured sucks at this point. but you got to find the right gym where it's like you're not dealing with some young guys with egos like they like.

Tyson Mutrux 01:21:01 Or people that don't know what they're doing. That's where you get injured. If you if you roll with the guys that are like higher belts or that no, then you won't get injured. You'll never get injured because they know how to protect you. Right? But it's it's the ones where you are.

Tyson Mutrux 01:21:11 If you're rolling with a newbie, that's where you'll get hurt, right? Yeah. Right. So I want to I want to end on this, though. I want to know because it seems like you're really driven. And I wonder, like what? What drives you and and what? What's your end game like? What do you. What do you want? To take this thing?

Thomas Moskal 01:21:27 You know, I'm just. I'm just taking it as it comes, man. when I went to law school, I didn't know I wanted to be a lawyer, I didn't. Interesting. Okay, I got out of there, and, I went back to my hometown and my best friend, he's just a hustler, man. And I said, yeah, I don't know if I want to be a lawyer. He says, so you spent all this money in law school? I went, yeah. And he goes, and you, you worked really hard for three years, got your law degree. I said, yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:21:52 And he goes, but you don't know if you want to be a lawyer. I said, yeah, I don't know. And he goes, but you haven't tried it yet. I kind of see where you're going with this. He goes, man, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. So I gave it a try, I like it, I knew I wanted to come into private practice. I'm only three years in. I mean, at some point life could take me a different direction. so I don't really have a long term, plan. I just know as long as I'm not dreading this, that's my thing. Like the prosecutor's office. I started dreading going in. Once I started writing, going into a job, I can't stay there. I'm not the the. What is the Oscar Wilde life of lonely desperation or whatever? Now, that's not me, so. Well, you don't.

Tyson Mutrux 01:22:33 Want a job, right? As a law. As a law firm owner, you don't want a job.

Tyson Mutrux 01:22:35 And so you don't have a job right now. That's good. I think that's good.

Thomas Moskal 01:22:38 Yeah. No. So it's cool. It affords me a lot of freedom. but I do feel like I'm a little bit wasted. I would like to go work on, like, some complex litigation. Yeah, I would, yeah, I think I.

Tyson Mutrux 01:22:49 Think you need something that's going to really motivate you and push you. I feel like you are. I think you're coasting right now, and I feel like you need to be pushed.

Thomas Moskal 01:22:57 It is no, I like I am coasting, but at the same time I got my priority, which is I want to be as president as I can for my son. Now he's five and a half. I think once he gets to seven, he's almost there at seven. It's pretty much like my job is done. Yeah. And not not in a comical way, but really, like, as far as psychologists say, if you get everything right from to seven years old, where they feel confident and secure.

Thomas Moskal 01:23:21 Everything's good. Parenting gets real easy. They start developing their own.

Tyson Mutrux 01:23:24 Self-sufficiency is great. Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:23:26 So I'm I'm just now feeling in this last year like I'm able to start grinding more. I mean, man, this summer is about as busy as a person could be. I was busy, you know, and I was getting these business processes set up. And so it just takes time. I just say I got a big saying, you know, piece equals pace. Go slow, homie. Go slow. Right. Like you're not in a race with anybody else. And bills are paid. Finances are good. Things look on the up and up. but if I look long term, if I stay doing this, I am looking to figure out how I can scale. Criminal. Right? How can I scale it? Because as soon as I turn the marketing up, I'm not going to be able to do it on my own. I'm not. and so. But financial independence, right? You know, I'm 45.

Thomas Moskal 01:24:12 I'm looking at by the time I'm 55, can I be in a position where I'm working because I kind of want to, you know, I'm not feeling that pressure of, like, that hunched over guy in his 50s. Where are my leads coming from? Oh my God. You know, they had a guy, John Mamet. He was in the casino. The movie. Okay. Robert DeNiro, his attorneys were Oscar Goodman, and John Mamet was right next to him. They were legends, right? John mom had just died about a year ago. But that guy, he married like, five different showgirls over his life. He's been married and divorced, right? He lived it up. But at the end of his career, he's coming up to court every day, and he's carrying his oxygen tank with the tubes going into his nose, still making appearances based on who he was. And every prosecutor he'd see. I was a young prosecutor's.

Speaker 4 01:24:56 Don't leave the DA's office. Get your bench in.

Speaker 4 01:25:00 Get your bench.

Thomas Moskal 01:25:01 In. That was his advice, right? Wow. And I said, but you know what? That guy, he really lived it up in his heyday, but he did not set himself up to be in a position of. Bill Terry was the same way he worked until he died. Right. And it's like you got to make sure that the like your need for money is not there anymore. And law is a beautiful way to do it. is it like, the passion? The sexiest job in the world? You know, I don't know. but I'm hoping ten years from now, I'm in a position where maybe the business is kind of running itself. You know, I can kind of recede back and kind of be the face, kind of make some rain. Maybe I'm not doing criminal defense anymore. I'm really looking at some of these, federal statutes that have attorney fee provisions shifting, you know, where you're suing the federal government for certain things, whether it's environmental or whatever.

Thomas Moskal 01:25:51 I know a couple guys that do that, and they make, you know, 5 or 600 grand a year, and there's only about 5 or 6 guys in the country who do it and nobody knows. You just gotta find one statute. Yeah. You become an expert in that. Consumer protection here. They got attorneys fee shifting provision. You could sue a used car dealership. The more they fight it. Next thing you know, they're on the hook for 75 grand an attorney's fees, over $1,500. Dispute because they're fighting it. So looking at all kinds of things like that, I think criminal defense can be a huge grind. Yeah, a lot of guys, can can wear on them. So. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:26:22 Well, what I hope is that, you know, ten years from now, five years from now, you go back, go back and listen to this. And you kind of you think like, okay, and like, you've at that point, you've kind of gotten to where you, you know, where you want to be with this.

Tyson Mutrux 01:26:35 And I think that'd be kind of a cool thing for you to come come back and listen to a little bit. No, it would be. Yeah. So, hopefully that you'll you'll do that? Yeah.

Thomas Moskal 01:26:41 I journal a lot. And just going back to a journal from three years ago. You're like, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah. So? So.

Tyson Mutrux 01:26:47 Well, Thomas, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. I know you're you're gonna got an event to go to. So. But I really appreciate you taking the time. I know we went pretty long here, but I think it was. It was fun. No.

Thomas Moskal 01:26:56 You know, man, I know you had a long day, man. So.

Tyson Mutrux 01:26:58 Yeah. Thanks, man.

Speaker 5 01:27:04 Thank you. Thank you.

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