Legal Entrepreneur Connecting Busy Attorneys With Freelance Attorneys with Talitha Gray Kozlowski ML134
Categories: Podcast

In this episode, Jim & Tyson interview Talitha Gray Kozlowski, a lawyer who specializes in bankruptcy and is the Co-Founder of Lawclerk.Legal, a firm that helps small firms to elevate the practice of law by engaging talented U.S. freelance lawyers to assist you on an as needed basis. They will go over her business and her new company, built from scratch. Listen as Talitha shares all about this new venture; how to make it possible and how to focus your time and energy so as to improve your life and practice.

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  • About Talitha
  • About Lawclerk Legal and how Talitha got there
    • LawclerkLegal > A marketplace that connects busy attorneys with freelance attorneys
    • Have over one thousand four hundred freelance attorneys/Do written work
    • Developed to:
    • 1)Help low and small firms elevate the practice of law
    • 2)Provide access to specialization, better products for clients at lower costs and all the business side increasing products
    • Started with six offices, and one in DC/Lobbying
    • Legal business broken/Improving the quality of practice of law
    • Nine members broke off and opened small shop in Las Vegas
    • Specializing in distinctive areas of law and better serve clients
    • Missed expertise of additional areas of law and sets of hands
    • Law clerk idea/Small firm taking on bigger cases
    • Access to huge talent of other attorneys
  • Moving away from day to day practice of law and growing something else
    • Corporate bankruptcy are unique practice
    • Helping companies re think about their business
    • Three co-founders/Two with same background
    • Many years thinking how businesses can improve and how other attorneys can improve as well
  • What partners do to make it work
    • Long time together practice
    • Mutual respect
    • Willingness to advocate for their position
    • Very good communication
  • Case > Process for assignment/An Immigration lawyer in St. Louis – Person in Washington facing deportation after having been caught with bag of weed/Someone in Lawclerk research immigration consequences of that conviction
    • As user friendly as possible/Attorney’s time is their most critical resource
    • “To post project need research invocations of a bag of weed in Washington”
    • Setting application period, fee price for project>controlling ultimate cost, initial draft, deadline for final draft, area of law and general description of what has been looked for with no confidential information
    • Hitting post of conflict information/Security site
    • Freelancers application/Selection/Provide information/Signment of confidentiality agreement
    • Time card and product/Payment tendered
  • Off the ground: Getting lawyers to want to trust and getting them into system to do work
    • “Markets are delicate and have to balance both sides”
    • Internally testing and marketing
    • Once an  attorney has posted one project they begin to post multiple projects/See value
    • Pool of talented attorneys looking to practice law differently
    • Platform offers freelancers flexibility for unique situations
  • Data on how the job posting attorney builds the client for the law clerk like an average of charge percentage wise or dollar wise”
    • Location/Reasonable market value
    • At Lawclerk ⅓ for freelance attorneys, ⅓ for profit and ⅓ for overhead
    • Build out freelancers somewhere towards low end of couple of associates/Own big profit and big value for clients
  • A case > A lawyer hiring a law clerk to write a brief/Another law clerk to write opposition/Ready for oral argument of the issue – Other scenarios
    • Critical feedback on briefs to prepare oral arguments
    • Discovery front/Attorneys getting interrogatories from opponent council/Off to client to fill out/Framing up with appropriate objections and responsive to request
    • Good way to get through discovery in a cost effective manner
  • Ethic issues/Term clerk
    • Freelance attorneys work in a paraprofessional capacity/Model Rules both 5.3 and 5.4/Can legalize paraprofessionals to provide work as long as under supervision
    • Lawclerk is compliant with all fifty states ethical rules
    • Totally safe on unauthorized practice of law issues/Ability to have incredible specialization
    • Supreme Court > Able to upcharge for the contract paralegal work, for freelance attorney work and contract attorney work as long as dealing services with reasonable market rates
  • Interesting success stories
    • Military spouses moving in high frequency
    • Mechanism in finding meaningful employment
  • Practicing law in different states
    • Type of work been done
    • Federal practice
    • Finding somebody in one’s jurisdiction
    • Pool of freelance attorneys
  • Balance running practice and building side business
    • Scaling practice
    • Plan and schedule


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Jim’s hack: Listening to audio from book Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer /Automation/Interaction with client/”Relook at what we are doing in a marketing perspective from a human and recipient approach”


Talitha’s hack: “Find what you like to do” “Find what you like in your practice” “Focus your time and energy on that and you will improve your life and practice”

Tyson’s tip: “What are the things I want to remove from my life?”/Removing negative things one at a time will make life easier




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Transcripts: Legal Entrepreneur Connecting Busy Attorneys With Freelance Attorneys with Talitha Gray Kozlowski

Unknown Speaker
This has been really remarkable to me it was unexpected in that there are so many talented attorneys that are looking to practice law differently, whether because they’re staying at home with kids, whether they’re staying at home with parents, military spouses who really struggled to keep full time employment, because they’re constantly moving retirees who want to do a little bit of work because they still like it, but also want to golf most of the day. And big law refugees we’re seeing more and more of those as they’re churning out and folks aren’t aren’t moving up the partnership track in the way that they used to 20 years ago. So we have this really vast pool of freelance attorneys who are looking to do work on their own terms.

Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.

Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum ROI Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.

Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson metrics. What’s up Jimmy?

Jim Hacking
Oh, Tyson cat and I were disappointed to miss you. Last week at our walkthrough of the location we’re going to be having our conference next year, I think that people are going to be really excited about Del Mar Hall. I think we gave them a little sneak peek as to what the venue looks like. I mean, the audio and the lights in that place. It’s just it’s really, really a cool spot. I mean, it’s, you know, we we were working around some musicians who were setting up for a show that night. So it’s a place that’s that’s generally built for music shows. But I think that it’s going to be perfect for our audience. And I think people are really going to like it at the conference this year.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, I think if you’d like the conference last year, hopefully going to be blown away. And I don’t I guess I don’t want to oversell it and then underperform during the conference. But I’m pretty excited. I’m pretty sure we’re going to exceed expectations from last year especially it’s demo Hall by itself is going to be amazing. But our speaker lineup is amazing. This year is amazing last year, but I think we’ve outdone ourselves this year, what we have scheduled between it’s just gonna be a lot of fun. I think people are gonna have a lot of fun, and then also learn about Undertale.

Jim Hacking
Yeah, it was fun. Today, we got word that we sold our 100 ticket, which is pretty amazing scenes, we sold 70 Total last year. And we’re still about three months out from the event. So that’s pretty exciting.

Tyson Mutrux
It’s different. We’ve got sponsors this year, we didn’t really go for sponsors last year, this year, we have sponsors. I mean, we booked all of our sponsors, we can’t really when people actually have people reaching out to us that we’re turning away. I didn’t even told you that yet. We’ve had multiple people this week as the sponsor, and we just don’t have room we don’t have room for sponsors. So we’re at a booths if you want to sponsor other stuff, we can get creative. And that’s what I’ve been trying to do is get creative with some other things. So for example, like sponsor to happy hour or something like that we can work that in, but for the most we’re at a booth space, so if you want to booth it’s not gonna happen. So pretty excited. You want to introduce our guests. I don’t want to keep her waiting too long.

Jim Hacking
I’m very excited. And we have made her wait too long. Her name is Lisa gray Kozlowski. She’s a bankruptcy lawyer in Las Vegas, and we’re going to talk about that. But we’re also going to talk about an interesting company that she has built from scratch. And we have a lot of entrepreneurial lawyer types in our group. I think everyone’s really gonna like hearing from her I met her at Mike Whelan’s lawyer forward conference just a couple of weeks ago. And I immediately thought she’d be a great guest for the show. So thanks for coming on to Lisa.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you. I’m excited to be here. Big fan of the podcast.

Tyson Mutrux
So to Lisa, I actually registered this morning or more this afternoon for law clerk, that legal I’m still going through it and need to upload my ID and all that. Talk about what it is and what you do and how you got to the point of wanting to do this. Wow.

Unknown Speaker
So law clerk is a marketplace that connects busy attorneys. With freelance attorneys. We have over 1400 freelance attorneys today, our freelance attorneys do all of the written work, so memos, motions, pleadings, contracts, agreements, any written work that you need to be done, it was developed to really help solo and small firms to really elevate the practice of law, to provide access to specialization, and to help us all provide better work product to our clients at lower costs. And importantly, for all of us, on the business side, increasing profits. How did we get there? So I started at a large, relatively large on the West Coast anyway, firm six offices as well as an office in DC that did lobbying. And what we were seeing is that it’s no surprise, the legal business model is simply broken. And as my partners and I were looking at what’s happening in the legal market, and what makes business sense, and how we can all improve the quality of the practice of law in our lives and work a little bit less nine of us broke off and opened our own small shop Up in Las Vegas, so that was in 2015. And we are specialized in a couple distinct areas of law instead of trying to be everything to everybody. And our objective is really to be the best at what we do and to to better serve our clients. And we absolutely love being a small firm, for all the reasons everybody knows, certainly the autonomy, flexibility, ability to better serve your clients in a lot of respects. But we were missing a couple of critical pieces we were missing. So I’m a corporate bankruptcy attorney, gaming issues come up, for instance, I certainly have the ability to figure out the gaming issue. But it was a heck of a lot easier when I could walk down the hall and talk to one of my partners who specialized in gaming. So we missed the expertise of additional areas of law, we additionally missed as we sort of geared up for trial, or we had that big case come in the additional sets of hands to just help with getting cases broke for bankruptcy getting cases prepped for trial. And we started thinking about how we how we solve that problem without stepping back into being a bigger firm, which is something we weren’t interested in doing. And it was out of that that really this idea of law clerk came about this idea that we should be able to be small firms, we should be able to specialize and have the quality of life, the business we want, but also the ability to take on bigger cases, the ability to grow practices and to have access to this huge talent of other attorneys that are out there. And that’s where Leclerc grew out of.

Unknown Speaker
And so what was it that you think is in your background that made you want to be an entrepreneur to sort of move a little bit away from the day to day practice of law and just sort of try to grow something else?

Unknown Speaker
You know, I think corporate bankruptcies a unique practice in that it’s certainly very, you know, technical legal issues that you’re dealing with, you’re also particularly on the debtor side, which the side I’m on. More often than not, you’re helping companies rethink about their business, how to improve their business, how, you know, to restructure the debt, and then move forward and maintain their companies. And so I think, you know, I spent 15 years sort of with that mindset. And so I think the entrepreneurial spirit kind of grows out of that, because that is what I love about my practice area is that helping companies figure out how to maintain their businesses is what makes me get out of bed and do the breathing, do the practice in the morning. And so there’s three co founders, and two of us come from that same background, and then one other co founder from a state’s interest background. But I do think spending so many years focused on thinking about how business how businesses can improve really helped shape my my interest in looking at the problem we were facing and how we can solve it, and how we can hopefully improve other attorneys lives as well.

Tyson Mutrux
I believe a lot of people have partners, or they’ve tried having partners, and it can be challenging at times. So what what is it about having your partners like, what do you want to do that you think makes it work and makes it where you all can actually gel? Because it doesn’t work for everybody? So what do you think that you will do that unique, maybe that makes it work?

Unknown Speaker
So the nine partners that practice together for a long time. And I think the one thing that I think our group has that is super simple, but I think uncommon, is a really strong mutual respect for one another. And also a willingness to everybody’s willing to advocate for their position, but not to the detriment of the whole. And so I think we have really good communication. And I think we have really good mutual respect for one another. And those are less common, I think attributes than I appreciated early in my career.

Jim Hacking
Let’s talk about how law clerk work. So let’s say that you’re an immigration lawyer in St. Louis, and you have a person who’s facing deportation for a crime that was committed, say they got caught with a big bag of weed like a garbage bag full of weed in Washington State. And you wanted to have someone from law clerks sort of research, the immigration consequences of that conviction. Let’s say I’ve gone ahead and registered like Tyson did today for an account with law clerk. And as I did back when we met, what’s the process for from the lawyer side of sort of doling out that assignment and what security checks do you have and things like that, to lead

Tyson Mutrux
them before you enter this out real quick? Jim, are you asking for a friend? I’m just curious.

Jim Hacking
I’m asking for a friend. Yes. Okay, I guess,

Tyson Mutrux
I guess.

Unknown Speaker
So the way the platform works, we’ve tried to make it as user friendly as possible attorneys time is their most critical resource. And so I’ve tried to make it really user friendly. So to post a project, I need research on the implications of a bag of weed in in Washington, you set your application period. So that’s how long the freelance attorneys have to apply to, you set the flat fee price you want to pay for the project. So you’re you’re controlling the ultimate cost you set when you want your initial draft. And I highly recommend everybody always get an initial draft, you set the deadline for your final draft, you set the area of law and you put in a general description of what you’re looking for, without any confidential information, you hit post, I’ve done it from the gym in the morning getting when I had an unexpected meeting at 1pm. And thankfully, somebody was up bright and early on the East Coast and helped me out. So really, really easy to get it posted. Once you post you then put in your conflict information. So your clients name adverse parties, etc. That information is then held on the site securely, the freelance attorney see the post you put together. So it’s a really finite amount of information, it goes out to the freelance attorneys, if they’re interested in doing the project for the price you’ve set, they apply to you. And so when they apply to you, you get their bios which include their resume their writing sample, as well as if they’ve done work on law clerk before how other attorneys have rated them and general comments. So you have all that at your disposal. You review the resumes to decide whom it is that you want to work with, you select that person. And when you select that person, they are then provided with the conflict information. So again, only the person that you want to work with sees who the client is, they then confirm that they don’t have any conflicts, they confirm that they’re going to comply with the conflicts law in your state. They then sign an NDA and confidentiality agreement for every single project. And once they do that, we then provide you with a secure communication portal. So it’s sort of like Slack, very similar to that document repository to share documents back and forth, all of which is secured encrypted, and only you and the freelance attorney that you’re working with have access to. And you can communicate that way, we also give you their email and phone number. So if it’s easier for you just pick up the phone and talk, then we encourage you to communicate in the most effective way for you. The way that the payment works is that when you select a freelancer so you can post a project without any charge. When you select a freelancer, your credit card is charged, the flat fee price you’ve set. It’s held in escrow until you accept the work product. So your your Freelancer in Washington is going to send you this fantastic memo all about marijuana and immigration. And when they send that to you, they send that to you, they also send to you their timecard. So that you can if you choose to bill it back to your clients at reasonable market rates, which is the US Supreme Court’s key phrase, you can do so but they provide you their timecard. And the product. And if you’re like this is in fact the absolute best memo ever, you hit accept if you’re like, hey, you know, I’d like you, you brought up this other great issue, I think you probably need to look at this too. You make those comments, send it back and work with it just like you wouldn’t associate in your office. But when you accept the work product, that’s when payment is tendered. And you both are hopefully very happy.

Tyson Mutrux
So I’m really curious, just in whenever you decided to start doing this and marketing it, how did you get this thing off the ground? Because this is way different than what most law firms or people are doing in general? And so how did you How are you able to get this thing off the ground and get lawyers to one trust the lawyers you were putting into the system to do the work? And how are you able to get the lawyers into the system to actually do the work?

Unknown Speaker
Very good question. So it’s not like selling widgets, right? Where you’re you go get the order, and then you and then you get manufacture 20 widgets marketplaces are delicate, and that you have to balance both sides. So we started internally, beta testing in Nevada with friends and family. Thankfully, since all founders are attorneys, we have a pretty good network of folks. And we started bringing on people that we knew to start testing it out and working through it. And then we just started doing some marketing. So CLAS, we started doing trade shows, podcasts, webinars, other things like that to spread the word. And it certainly was slow going at first as far as getting attorneys to rethink about how they’re practicing law and start signing up. But what we found is that, once an attorney posts one project, they’re highly highly likely to post multiple projects because they begin to see the value. It’s a great way to to get work done. It’s a great way to get some specialization and to increase profits. And so that’s been the I guess the ball is spinning now in that our biggest lead source Currently, our referrals from our current users as they’re coming on the site, having a great results and work product. They’re starting to refer friends On to use it. So we’re getting a, I think a positive buzz. On the freelance side. It is this has been really remarkable to me it was unexpected in that there are so many talented attorneys that are looking to practice law differently whether because they’re staying at home with kids, whether they’re staying at home with parents, military spouses, there’s a vast number of military spouses who really struggled to keep full time employment, because they’re constantly moving. retirees who want to do a little bit of work because they still like it, but also want to golf most of the day. And big law refugees we’re seeing more and more of those as they’re churning out and folks aren’t aren’t moving up the partnership track in the way that they used to 20 years ago. So we have this really vast pool of freelance attorneys who are looking to do work on their own terms. And we’d like to say they’re they’re sort of fall from the sky, because I think our platform offers offers them that flexibility to practice law in a way that makes sense for their lives. And they’re very unique situations. And so we’ve been, I think, just incredibly fortunate in that we haven’t had to really go search for those folks. They found us more often than not, and and often on a referral. So that’s been, I think, maybe most surprising to me is just how voluminous that pool of talented attorneys that want to do freelance work really is.

Jim Hacking
We’re getting lots of great questions and comments. Mike Whalen said he was going to only post snark during our interview, but he actually posted a nice comment. He said a law clerk is working on a brief for me right now, giving me time to listen to this call hashtag meta. But we also have a question from Jonathan who dhoka. And he asks, Is there data on how the job posting attorney builds the client for the law clerk like an average of charge, percentage wise or dollar wise?

Unknown Speaker
So I don’t have I don’t have that I do know what some folks do. So the key phrase is reasonable market rate. It obviously depends on where you are, you know, if you’re in California, reasonable market rate is very different than Nevada, which is very different than Wyoming. I’ve heard from some of our attorneys using freelancers that they do anywhere from a 25 to a 50% markup, what we had suggested at law clerk is, you know, the old business model was 1/3, for the freelance attorney 1/3 for profit 1/3 For overheads. So, you know, anywhere between, you know, up to 60%, arguably fits within the old model of how attorneys build out associates. So I know that’s not super specific. But in my own practice, I tend to build out my freelancers, somewhere towards the low end of my late my, the couple of associates I have between a paralegal and an associate, which is still a big profit for me, but also a great value for my clients. So I’m lowering the cost of legal service without hurting my profit.

Tyson Mutrux
I just sent in by ID so I can finish my my registration, so rock, pretty, this is kind of cool. So there’s another question. It’s from Nick rish. Wayne, and the question in general is, who’s your target market? So are you targeting big law, solos, small firms who’s your target,

Unknown Speaker
our target market is so low and small attorneys, big law, numerous things. First of all, they tend to already have an oversupply of attorneys that they’re struggling to feed. But second of all, really, the when we moved to a smaller shop, we became, you know, very aware of the fact that so often small firms are really underserved, generally by the legal market by legal tech. And that, really, these are the folks that can benefit the most by having periodic help. But as we all go through the, you know, the peaks and valleys of the practice of

Jim Hacking
law. So when we were in Austin, you gave some interesting use cases, I remember you talked about one lawyer in particular, who hired one law clerk, to write a brief. And then they took that brief and had another law clerk, write the opposition to that, so as to help the attorney be ready for oral argument of the of the issue. Can you talk about that? Or maybe some other interesting use scenarios that you’ve seen?

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we’ve seen so you obviously have all of your sort of staples, your brief writing your agreements, contracts, but the things that sort of shocked me, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, why didn’t I think of that? We’re, for that example. For instance, we have one attorney who will post the motion, have somebody draft the opposition, and then post both back out to the marketplace and say, I need somebody to review these and tell me who you think wins and why. So they’re getting critical feedback on the briefs, which I just think is really a clever way to prepare for oral argument. We’ve seen attorneys post a project saying, hey, I need a phone consult. I’m an employment law attorney. In Kansas, I have a client who has an employment law issue in Texas. I believe I know the answer, but I just need to bounce it off somebody in Texas, you know, I need 25 minutes to talk to somebody with that expertise on the Discovery front, which is always just such a huge time suck. What I thought was really interesting is we had one attorney who would get the numerous interrogatory keys from the opposing counsel, send them off to the client to fill out which usually comes with a lot of superfluous information. And then would post the project saying I need somebody to frame these up with the appropriate objections, and to clean them up and make them in fact, responsive to the request. And I just thought that was a great way to get through discovery in a cost effective manner. So I thought that was really interesting.

Tyson Mutrux
I hadn’t really thought about it from that perspective, that’s actually really good. I may actually do that because i Something I hate doing, as I think most of us hate doing his discovery he responding to it’s really annoying. My Waylon has a good question. Talk about the ethics issues, why you use the term clerk, and how you can bill above these costs, as opposed to calling them expenses.

Unknown Speaker
Okay, perfect. So all of our freelance attorneys work in a paraprofessional capacity. So the model rules, both 5.3 and 5.5. Say that you can utilize paraprofessionals to provide work for you, as long as they’re doing so under your supervision. And so all of our freelance attorneys only do the written work. So they don’t go to court, they don’t talk to opposing counsel, they don’t give the advice to the client. They’re working effectively as a glorified paralegal. So you have this just incredible wealth of expertise available to you. And that’s important so that you’re able to utilize folks from outside of just your jurisdiction. So in you know, Jim scenario allows you to go and get somebody from Washington to provide the research who is probably more adept at that analysis than you are man who has a specialty in that area to assist you without running into the buzzsaw of the unauthorized practice of law. This was really something we spent considerable time working through and what I think makes law clerk very special. There’s certainly freelancing is not a novel idea. But what we really did was was spent a lot of time to make sure it is compliant with all 50 states ethical rules. So again, you’re you’re totally safe on the unauthorized practice of law issues. Because of these, these constraints that we put on him. And again, it then it gives you the ability to have incredible specialization from various jurisdictions assisting you. The other thing is that the Supreme Court the ABA Ethics committees, and ethics panels across the country have said that it you are able to up charge for the contract paralegal work for freelance attorney work for contract attorney work, as long as you’re doing so at reasonable market rates, there are a few states Texas requires you to disclose to your your client that you’re using a contract attorney, but as long as you are billing them out as a service, so versus a cost. So an expert you may push through as a cost that’s distinct, you can’t you can’t charge those. But as long as your billing your freelance attorneys out as a service at an hourly rate, you can mark them up just like you would an associate, which is really important, because simply because you’re rethinking and being more modernized modernizing how you’re utilizing other attorneys shouldn’t preclude at the end of the day, the ability to run a business because we all need to make some sort of profit. And I’m in order to continue in business here.

Jim Hacking
So I’m thinking about the 8020 rule. And I’m imagining that there’s some people like you said, who use a very, very often I’m imagining that’s probably true for the lawyers doing the research on the research side. Have you had any interesting success stories of lawyers who are working for you who are the actual law clerks like, like things that have interesting things that have happened from their perspective,

Unknown Speaker
I think, at least on the warm and fuzzy and from our perspective, has been the military spouses. And we’ve we’ve had a number of military spouses that have done a fair amount of work through the site. And the feedback has been, you know, that they had been unable to find work because they had been moving with with such frequency or the ability to get barred over and over or that they were doing really work that was below their sophistication level, just to simply get a part time job. And so that I think has been really neat this this idea that we’re able to provide a mechanism for these super talented military spouses to find meaningful employment and employment that puts too is really their their skill set at a level that they deserve.

Tyson Mutrux
So Stephen Levkoff asks, is there a loss of efficiency and having a clerk that historically has practiced law in a different state? How often do you do the freelance attorneys have to get up to speed on that jurisdictions rules, law, precedent, etc.

Unknown Speaker
So I think it depends on the type of work you’re doing. So my practice is a federal practice. So being barred in Nevada does not in any way, shape or form helped me as far as my use of freelance attorney. So if you have a federal practice, certainly, I think the you don’t run into those issues. I think the, to the extent that you need or find efficiency and having somebody in your jurisdiction, I think, you know, we generally have a pretty significant pool of freelance attorneys so that if you want somebody you know, within Missouri to provide services to you, I think you, you will be able to find those freelance attorneys. So while we focus on and we emphasize that you’re not bound by your jurisdiction, to the extent that you only want to work with someone in your jurisdiction, and some folks do, you certainly have that ability as well.

Unknown Speaker
Alright, so for my last question, since this has started to grow, and you’re going around to shows like lawyer forward and Cleito and those kinds of things, how are you to leave the as a lawyer balancing, running your practice and building side business,

Unknown Speaker
they gave up sleeping season. So I’ve scaled back my practice a little bit so that I can spend more time focused on law clerk, but it really takes a fair amount of planning, as far as just trying to schedule out what I’m going to accomplish for the week for each day, for my firm, and for my practice. And then for law clerk. Sometimes I’m successful at it, sometimes, I’m finishing it up with a glass of wine at the dinner table at 9pm. So strive for balance, but I certainly won’t say I’ve achieved it.

Tyson Mutrux
So I definitely have more questions. And Mike Whelan has a question, but I’m gonna wrap things up. And if anyone else has other questions, reach out to delete the will let you leave your information at the end of this. Before I wrap up, I want to remind everyone to if you’re listening to this, go to the Facebook group and join. If you’re watching this outside of the Facebook group, join the Facebook group, if you’re a lawyer, you need to hear from people just like to lead to another very smart people that shared a lot of great information. Also, please give us a five star review on iTunes or a future podcast. It really does help. Jimmy What’s your tip of the week?

Jim Hacking
Well, first of all, let me say the you’re really getting good as an announcer twice. And you kind of just like someone from the PBS pledge drive. When you said people just like to LIFO that was pretty cool. And pretty slick. I have a my hack of the week is another book from our friend Mark Schaefer, our friend Mitch Jackson, tune me in to Mark Schaefer A while back, he has a new book out, which I’m listening to on audio. And it’s called Marketing rebellion. And it’s really interesting, it’s really sort of a backlash against a lot of the stuff that we talk about, as far as automation, overkill, sort of people forgetting bread and butter marketing principles, and instead of just focusing on tactics, I think it’s a, it’s a really interesting book, that will resonate with a lot of the people in our group, because I think we have a pretty sophisticated group. But I think it’s also sort of an invitation to relook at what we’re doing on a marketing perspective, from a human and recipient based approach, as opposed to running people through the gauntlet and doing all this stuff. You know, we were all sort of mocking that lawyer marketing kid that I found on Facebook yesterday for all of his antics. But I really think that there’s probably going to be a swing back and Mark sort of prophesizing that a swing back towards a little more human and one on one interaction, as we see this technology, just marching forward.

Tyson Mutrux
So I think that you are combining the two. And you’re and you’re saying that the automation, I think you’re explaining automation the way most people think about automation, and then you’re thinking about automation, where people should be thinking about automation. And that’s to increase those touches increasing, how much the client you to interact with the client and all that. So I think that I sort of disagree with the way you explained that maybe the book was a different light, but we didn’t talk about that another day. All right. So to leave the about 30 minutes ago, Jim told you that we were going to ask you to give a tip or hack of the week. So hopefully you’ve got one Do you have a tip or hack for us?

Unknown Speaker
So my my tip is probably maybe a little sound will come off a little lofty, but my best tip is find what you like to do. Find what you like in your practice and focus your time and energy on that and find ways to get the rest of it off your plate, whether it’s outsourcing your admin, whether it’s outsourcing, work to freelancers, but focus on what you like to do, and you will improve your life. If you will improve your happiness and you’ll improve your practice,

Tyson Mutrux
this is perfect because my tip of the week relates to that a lot. So my tip is this because I’ve been think about this a lot lately I’ve been think about my 12 week goals and what I want to do and I was like thinking about the things like what what are the things I need to remove from my life and so my tip is really, really related to your so think about the things that are making that make you mad each day make you upset, make you sad, whatever it may be. In over the next couple of weeks, just remove one thing at a time and see how your life improves and see see how you’re liking it. Let’s say let’s say you’ve got someone that is making you mad remove them from your life, you don’t have to deal with people that you don’t like every single day. So think about it from that perspective, choose one thing or one person to remove it’s a negative influence on you and removed from your life. So alright, so delete the same thank you so much for coming on. We really do appreciate this I learned a lot that’s really cool. Thank you so much but also tell people how they can get a hold of you.

Unknown Speaker
I’m at law clerk dot legal so dot legal and all of our contact information is on there. So look forward to talking with anyone. My email is also T gray gra y at Locklear dot legal. And again, happy to chat with anybody by email, phone and answer any questions.

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