In this episode, Jim and Tyson interview Harlan Schillinger a Legal Marketing expert, strategist and consultant. They will go over what was like to advertise back then, the main changes in marketing and advertising nowadays, and common mistakes lawyers do.
Legal Advertising in the early 80’s
“We then went out across the country and we met with law firms. That was the challenge. I went to the Yellow Pages, I opened up the book and I looked for the biggest add. I called the lawyer up and I said; I have something I’d like to run by you. And they were sceptical because they didn’t want to be the first.”
The phone banks lit up!
“When the commercial ran, the entire phone bank lit up. And at that point, lawyers said: where do I send the money, how do I sign up?!”
Marketing & Human Nature
“There was a tremendous correlation between advertising and human nature, because you have to make that connection…”
The change in advertising
“Things changed when competition started to come in. People started to build agencies. More and more lawyers started to advertise. The market got crowded and things changed in the consumers mind.”
“The Internet is a game changer, because it allows you to reach a lot of people, it allows you to be yourself and that’s a whole new commodity. But advertising is advertising, you wanna appeal to someone…”
Talk to an audience as you would talk to a jury
“If you are looking for valuable business, you have to have more than a message, you have to have a story, because it’s about caring, it’s about compassion, it’s about realle restoring your life to the way it was before the accident…”
Marketing mistakes nowadays
Lawyers completely underestimate intake and conversion. Also, lawyers don’t understand how to develop a referral business from existing clients.
“If I had 1 client or I had 50, I would constantly stay in touch with them or find a way to stay in touch with them after settled the case. (..) I can honestly tell you that the best case that comes into your office comes through a referral.”
DON’T CONFUSE AN ANSWERING SERVICE WITH AN INTAKE SERVICE!
“Intake is answering the phone, and making somebody feel absolutely welcome and formulating a relationship as quickly as possible. Within the first couple of words, somebody is going to decide whether they are going to stay with you, or they are going to find someone else…”
Lead Docket, an intake management system that is focused on simplicity and a straightforward and consistent process for every lead.
- Gain better knowledge of where your leads are coming from
- Completely manage your marketing efforts
- Increase your profits without more spending
- Know your ROI on all advertising
Jim’s hack: Each time I do something different this month, I’m making it into a sticky note, and in the end of the month I’m going to compile all my sticky notes into different categories and then I’m gonna either automate it, eliminate it, or delegate it.
Harlan’s hack: If you want to grow; WORK ON YOUR BUSINESS, NOT IN YOUR BUSINESS.
Tyson’s tip: Upload notes to your firm’s WIKI, so you can share notes with other people in the firm. People will learn from this notes.
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Transcripts: Legal Advertising ft. Harlan Schillinger
You can start anywhere, everybody has to start somewhere. So I really don’t buy into the fact that you have to have a, you know, a false of money should be successful and be somewhere and compete. Whether it be on television or whether it be in the internet. You have to start somewhere. Your expectations have to be well online.
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum layer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum ROI Podcast. I’m Jim hacking
and tasty metrics. Jimmy, you’re audio sucked for a second, and then all of a sudden you get on and you’re good. So I don’t know what you did in the last five seconds. But it sounds great. How you doing?
I’m doing great, my friend. How are you? Good. I
feel like I can’t get away from you today. You know, we were on the phone this morning and emailed me all day. And we’re on the phone again. So it’s always a pleasure talking to you, Jimmy.
I’m sure our listeners are quite jealous because you got to spend so much time with me today.
And I doubt that I doubt that. Well, I’m pretty excited about our guest. It’s probably been too long since we decided to have him on but Harlan, how are you doing?
I’m doing great guys. How are you guys doing? Doing well, doing well.
So I’m gonna give a brief introduction. The introduction I give you is not going to be as good as your experience and your knowledge is but I will do my best for the people that don’t know Harlan Schillinger. He is the guy when it comes to marketing in this country. I in my opinion. He’s he’s represented a ton of plaintiffs firms, basically firms across the country, but I think primarily parle and you can correct me if I’m wrong about this, primarily plaintiffs firms. You you worked with Glenn Lerner is a big pretty massive injury firm, worked with over 120 law firms and 98 markets across North America. So, Harlan, thanks for coming on.
Oh, you’re quite welcome. You know, just to clarify that I started legal advertising back in 1979. I’m not sure if you guys were born yet. But I was and I was pursuing marketing, legal television commercials. It was new was exciting. Nobody had ever done it except plunger, Kobe venger. Kobe was the first advertising lawyer in the country. And he jumped the gun. He actually went on the day after the base decision. And that followed with a gentleman named Gordon freaky, who we wound up merging my business with and really pioneering advertising through network affiliates, which is my former agency that I retired from two and a half years ago,
Harland both a little bit about what it was like back in 1979. In the early 80s, I picture as sort of an updated version of madmen. What was it like helping lawyers as they started to come to terms with the fact that they were allowed to advertise and sort of what were the mindsets of people back in that time?
Well, the madman TV series was based on a group of advertising geniuses in New York, David Gray gentleman named Bill, my skin’s Doyle, Dane and burnback was one of the original agencies that I associated with. And my mentor was Bill my screen, she was a creative director, Executive Director of creativity for J. Walter Thompson. And so I lived a little bit of those days, we started to advertise bill, myself and three other partners put together a syndication company, to syndicate high end retail commercials. And we stumbled into lawyer advertising, literally upon the Bates decision. And we produced a series of television commercials, and we did not have one client. And it was based on image, these commercials can probably still, with the exception of the suits, and the clothing be run today. It was quite interesting. We then went out across the country, and we met with law firms. That was the challenge. I went to the yellow pages, I opened up the book, and I looked for the biggest ad, I called the lawyer up and I said, I have something I’d like to run by you. And they were skeptical because they didn’t want to be the first. With that being said, the first year that we had our syndicated commercials, which was 1979, we picked up 58 clients, which was totally amazing. We were not involved in the airtime they were involved with placing their own advertising. And that’s how it started. And I can honestly tell you when I merged my business with Norton 1984, there wasn’t anything that we could do wrong when I say that, no matter how you advertise on television, or whatever it is Yellow Pages, primarily television. It was an open floodgate. It was just remarkable. network affiliates started in 1983 1982 1983. And they had a slew of clients. And that was amazing, because these were the pioneers of legal average. So there was very few people that were advertising. And there was always one that started it. And they couldn’t stop. It was a locomotive like a train going down the tracks. The biggest problem was how do you answer so many telephone calls at the same time. And that was what I remember. I remember lawyers coming in and out of Denver, wanting to know what Norton and I were up to. And they would use stopping into our office as an excuse to tax write off their ski vacation or what have you. And they’d come in, and we’d stand around the phone when a television commercial ran, and the entire phone bank lit up. And at that point, they said, Where do I send the money? Where do I sign up? How do I do this? And I remember the first early adopters just did phenomenally well for about, I guess, 15 years. And then things started to change. I love garlic. So
you just said something that reminds me of the firm. I used to work for the volume practice in St. Louis. And I remember one of the partners coming to us, He gave us it like 445. And he said, Hey, we are running a big ad. We spent a bunch of money on it. It’s running at five o’clock. It’s going at exactly five o’clock, five o’clock. We have got to have the phones ready. And so we’re all like Oh, hunkered down and everyone’s ready for the phones to ring. You spent a bunch of money on this ad. And we didn’t get one phone call. See your ads must be really, really freakin good. Because it was it was like, Oh my gosh, I don’t know what he spent the Elena’s. He told he’s been a bunch of money on his ad. We all stood around the phones waiting and nothing ever came. So. So I’m just curious, what drew you to advertising? What was it? I mean, I know that you something you said you sort of fell into illegal advertising. But what drew you to advertising in general,
I actually fell into advertising. I moved up to a small town in northwestern Connecticut. And I met a gentleman named Noah Munchkins. And after about three weeks, we became very good friends, or building a good friendship. And I kind of was a son that he didn’t have. And we were going back to New York on Monday morning and coming back on Thursday. And after about three weeks of traveling said it’s an Ireland, I’m going to start this new concept of television commercials, which allowed me to teach you how to make TV commercials was 25 years old, 24 little less than 25. And, and I said, Sure, why not? That sounds interesting. So I really hit the ground running. And from that day forward, I learned the business from moving sandbags, to moving cameras to learning how to direct and most of all learning how to market. And from that point, I started to really understand and pay attention to human nature. And there was a tremendous correlation between advertising and human nature because you have to make that connection. And I just was simply drawn to it. I was very attracted to it. I did well out of the box, because I guess nobody else was doing what we were doing. And I truly fell into it.
So Harlan after you were able to show lawyers, the ringing phone bank, sort of walk us through how things developed at that point, because you said at some point, things started to change. I’d love to hear a little bit about the heyday when that was really working. And then sort of how things changed.
Well, let me step back in there. Tyson’s experience. We had one client in Portland, Maine, Don Lowry, back in 1983, or 84. And he ran a campaign in Maine and the phone did not ring for six months. The only time the phone did not ring at all six months, it didn’t ring and then all of a sudden it started ringing and ringing off the hook. So that happens, but I’m sure the advertiser Tyson described right now is a major player will became a major player. There’s a lot of elements that you have to put together to make to make it successful. Things changed about 15 years ago, when competition started to come in. People started to build agencies, they started to do things on their own more and more lawyers in order to advertise in the marketplace. I don’t want to say that flooded but it gets very crowded. Things changed in the consumers mind, a generation grew up on advertising. And now a new generation was adapting it and understanding it. And where I think the most significant change took place with besides all the other agencies that jumped in the boat, all the people that want to get involved with legal advertising, the conservative part of the bar, the bar that said the firm’s that I’ll never advertise and I won’t advertise I am not going to do that. It’s It’s demeaning, you know, for all the reasons that they say advertising is is ruining the profession. I started to sit back and say, you know, something, I think I gotta read Look at this. That’s when I really felt a change. And I felt that there was a change in the climate and a tremendous opportunity to change your message and also attract new clients. You know, bigger firms were saying, I have to advertise. Everybody advertises guys. It’s a question of how they are Attach, I’m talking about mass media advertising, television, digital was just getting into protection. Digital came in, more importantly in the late 90s 2001 2002. And that was a game changer because he kind of leveled the playing field, heartland.
I mean, you’ve been doing this for a long time. I mean, I can’t imagine how much it’s changed between when you started. And now, do you think that the basic advertising concepts are the same? Or have they changed? That’s
a good question. Advertising concepts. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by concepts? Are you referring to opportunities or different outlets that we can use to get the message across, because, you know, television is still here, billboards are still here, the internet is a game changer, because it allows you to reach a lot of people allows you to be yourself, and that’s a whole new commodity. But generally speaking, advertising is advertising you want to appeal to someone. I’m a believer, I shouldn’t say, of having lawyers talk to the public the way they would insure it. And I don’t think that’s changed. The techniques have changed.
And what do you mean by that by having lawyers talk to an audience in advertising, like they would talk to a jury,
I would say 80% of the lawyers that are advertising on television, take a what we call in the business of speed and greed approach will get you all the money, all the money, that settlement, that’s the only thing that counts, just call us. And that is that message. And if you look at television commercials, internet commercials, primarily mass media spots, whether it be radio and billboard, it’s a speed and greed message. And it works. However, I believe, if you’re looking for a really quality case, and you’re looking which everybody is, if you’re looking for subsequent business, I call it a valued file, you have to have a more of a message because it’s about caring, it’s about compassion. It’s about really restoring your life to where it was before an accident, people that are looking and call up a law firm wondering how much their case is worth, really not laid up in the hospital seriously injured, they’re looking for money to fix that car, fix that neck, but they’re still working primarily. So that’s a differentiation point. So when I say let’s talk to the public the way we would a jury, you’re telling a story, you’re asking for something from the jury, as opposed to putting well, we’ll get you all the money that you deserve, there’s got to be more than a message of more than a message, then we’ll just get you all the money that you need.
All right. So Harlan was talking a little bit about that. So it takes quite a bit of money to run a lot of these TV advertising campaigns and the billboards, there’s a lot to it. And a lot of them, whenever you run these, you’re running radio, you’re on billboards, you’re on TV, you’re running internet ads, all at the same time. And so I think a lot of thinking may be that, okay, we’ve got to sign up as many of these cases, even if they’re calling and asking how much money they’re gonna get, then you can so that you can sort of pay the bills. Are you saying that that is not the right way of doing it? Are you just saying that that’s a different way of doing,
I think it’s a different way of doing it, let’s kind of back up a minute. One of the things that I really enjoy is seeing new lawyers, you know, breaking into the field, you have a lot of that within your group. And I noticed that, you know, on your on your website, and I’m a true believer, and I just want to Let’s slow this conversation down a bit. But I’m a true believer that you have to start somewhere. And I have agency friends, and I was at a meeting recently in St. Louis. And the agencies that were there, were saying, Well, you know, if you don’t have 30 $40,000 a month, you’re just wasting your money in St. Louis, or another large market. But I’m really not a believer of that. I think that you have to start off somewhere. And I think it’s okay to start out very small, your expectations, they’ll have to be well in order. I just suggested to a friend of mine, who really doesn’t have a great deal of money to spend, but he wants to build a business. And he wants to start from where to start on one television station with six ads in a week with six ads in a day, but strategically placed those ads, and don’t cling to the telephone waiting for that million dollar case to commence with those six ads that you can start there. Your expectations have to be in line. You can start anywhere, everybody has to start somewhere. So I really don’t buy into the fact that you have to have a you know, a false of money should be successful and be somewhere and compete. Whether it be on television or whether it be in the internet. You have to start somewhere, but your expectations have to be well online.
We’re speaking today with Harlan schellenger. He’s been involved in the legal marketing business since almost its inception. And Harlan, what do you think? Most lawyers today are getting wrong when it comes to marketing?
I think one of the most significant things that I see while you’re still here is a completely underestimate intake and conversion, number one, and that is squarely in volved. In the marketing end of it, I also don’t think that they understand how to develop referral business from existing clients. I think that a new lawyer starting out, if I had one client or I had 50, I would constantly stay in touch with them, or find a way to stay in touch with them in an unobtrusive way. After I settle the case, your best cases are going to come from referral, with the 1000s of millions, millions of dollars that I’ve been able to spend on television, I can honestly tell you that the best case that comes into your office is through referral, not necessarily only through a lawyer’s referral, but particularly for your past clients. And I think the biggest mistake that I do see is that people are chasing the next case, when that case is really right in front of them, and to take time to develop that referral. Business. It’s time more than money. It’s effort, it’s sincerity. I think that’s one of the most significant things that I do. See, I also see that lawyers that want to get involved in this, they listen to a lot of people, and they don’t do enough homework on the people that they really want to do business with. I think a big mistake that people do participate in lawyers is they jump in what they think are opportunities for vendors and such. And I make a rule of thumb that I do not do business with anyone in the vendor arena until I have an opportunity to go visit their their shop, I want to see the culture, I want to see the people that are actually working on the account. And I want to formulate a relationship. I think that’s a significant problem in our business. Lawyers seem to say, Well, my friend used it I’ll use them to not every day is a good day. That’s pretty incredible Ireland, I
mean, I don’t know many people that will go out and actually visit the shop of the people that they do business with. That’s pretty incredible. So let’s talk a little bit about just intake in general. So now that you’ve got a ton of experience on that, what are some tips you have for people, let’s say new attorneys, old attorneys, whatever it may be, regarding intake?
Well, the first thing is, is don’t confuse an answering service with an intake service. You know, I read on our blog that we have on our servers that, you know, find me a cheap person to answer the telephone or what do you use, or we misconceive when we have a misconception of what intake is intake as answering the phone and making somebody feel absolutely welcome and formulating relationship as quickly as possible. Within the first couple of words, somebody’s going to decide whether they’re going to stay with you or they’re going to find another lawyer or somebody else to talk to. And I think that’s where intake begins, you have to understand that these people that are calling are not machines, they’re they have a lot more options than you want to give a victim credit for. They see an ad on television every 30 seconds. They have friends that are saying call this person call that person. And I think we just simply underestimate that initial call. I just published an article it’s Well, it hasn’t even been published yet. I just submitted it’s called the ambassador first impressions. What that means is the first person to answer your telephone is going to last is going to leave that legacy leave that impression, I should say, you know, with your viewer, and then I think it goes down the line. How you answer questions, how you deal with people, is the most important thing with intake. And the second most important, distinct intake, or I should say the third is accountability. The weakest part of intake, other than answering the phone correctly, correctly means with compassion, and understanding what the case is about quickly. And treating people with dignity is accountability. And what I call the chase. If you get 100 phone calls in a week, hypothetically, and you write 20% 25%, you’ve got 75% of your options, people that have called you that haven’t made a decision or are not qualified. With a takes out of that you probably have five or 10 making these figures up is going on from from my experience of people that say well, let me get back to you. Let me talk to my husband, let me think about it. That is the weakest part of of intake, other than answering the phone, because most people simply don’t have an effective system to chase that down and keep in touch with people. And I think all about how you experience. The first time you call somebody or call a firm is going to be the most lasting impression. So in taking conversion has gotten a lot more sophisticated because the view or the client is more sophisticated. You know, it’s kind of like having a credit card problem and you get thrown over to the Philippines and you are speaking to somebody that you just can’t relate to and I’m not being prejudiced about the Philippines or overseas. What I’m saying is that you can understand that I feel like that’s going on and you feel like you’re in a hello voice. That’s not customer service. American Express is customer service. You read somebody in Florida, that is paying attention to what you’re saying and making you feel like you’re the only person on the phone. And I can assure you, if you take that approach or understand that mentality, you’ll prosper.
But a month ago, John Fisher and Harlan were talking in the mastermind experience Facebook group about intake and conversion. And John said he wanted to sort of throw it out there to see who thought that they had a system set up where cases or clients weren’t falling through the cracks. And I pounded on my chest and said, I have Infusionsoft and I don’t have any, any holes in my buckets. And Parlin asked me like two or three questions. And in a minute, I knew that I did, in fact, have some serious holes. And so that’s why over the course of the past month or so, I’ve been moving off of Infusionsoft and into a program that you’re involved in lead docket Harlan, tell our listeners a little bit about lead docket, if you would. Well,
lead docket is a piece of software that my two other partners and I developed Dino Colombo, who was a lawyer in West Virginia, small practice. And Eric Kaufman, who was the head of it for West Virginia University Hospital. And we developed this piece of software release the Dinos term, I was really on the look for for a piece of software that I could, you know, I could I could mark it and put it under my name with my stamp and with my understanding of what I was looking for an intake, because as an ad agency, I had certain criteria. The way it all came about, honestly was about 1012 years ago, and being in the agency business clients would come to me and say, I want more leads and one more phone calls. And I said, Well, what happened for the last one? What happened to the last batch that we sent you? And they would unequivocably say, well, they weren’t any good. And I started really scratch my head said, you know, what do you mean, they weren’t any good. And then I started to understand how to record telephone calls and understand that accountability was really, really important. The more I got involved with it, the more I got pushback from lawyers saying, Well, I get 94% of everybody I want. And then the question is, well, what do you want. And I looked around at other businesses, and I looked around at other sensible businesses that had a really good understanding of metrics and software, and accountability. And I looked at the legal industry, and I said, there really isn’t any accountability. You know, most of the players, almost all of them are buying this. So it’s not a problems. You know, there’s arbitrarily saying, Well, I didn’t want that case. Well, the client didn’t want you. And I came to the conclusion that I wasn’t going to do business with anyone that I couldn’t record a telephone call away. And I did that, because I really want a definition. I wanted to understand what their strengths and weaknesses are. But most important, I want my clients to understand that they’re not perfect, and not even close to being perfect. And in fact, most of the time, they if they call their own law firm with a problem, they wouldn’t do business with them. And that’s really where it all started. And that’s where it is with me. And I think that’s where it should be. With everyone that’s out there. The moment we think that we can get everybody that we want, or we’re doing a fantastic job. That is you’re setting yourself up for failure or not less of an opportunity, gentlemen, the best way I can describe where intake is, is that the industry, the business of legal counsels, what they get, they’re not counting what they’re not getting. And as a young lawyer, that starting out with minimal dollars, you sure better know what you’re missing, that’s falling through the cracks, because you don’t have much to choose from. And you have to make the best of every dollar that’s being spent and every phone call that’s coming in. And so I developed lead docket, it’s a great little system, I don’t sell it on the open market, we simply want to invite people in, I think we have 50 or 60 clients using it. My objective was to make a very user friendly piece of software. If it’s user friendly, it’s easy, your staff will use it. My other objective was not to build it on a Microsoft platform so that we can customize it for your firm. Because every firm has their own way of doing things or have a specific piece of software such as infusion or case management system that it needs to work parallel with it needs to be able to download and work simultaneously with and the third thing is I wanted to make it affordable. I wanted to make it half the price of everything else on the marketplace and the way I was able to do that was simply not built on the Microsoft platform, which is absolutely no advantage of doing that because you’re confined technically and It’s an expensive platform to do it. And those were my objectives with lead data. And it’s a wonderful piece of software that you know, more than happy. We share with with anyone that’s interested, you can go to lead docket.com. And take a good look at the product. But we’re really not interested in installing this in other firms that aren’t, they don’t have the mentality for we’re understanding, intake and conversion, they have to have a compassion for the client, they have to be business oriented, and they have to want to thrive in
Berlin, he told everyone how to get in touch with you through for lead document, let’s say they want to hire you for some consulting, how do they get in touch with you? Well, I’m,
I’m chuffed to hire you quite frankly, my time is spent primarily with Glenn, I have a few other people I work with. But you can go to Harland schillinger.com. I do have a website, I do not solicit business because I’m very, very particular about business. I put in 40 years into an advertising agency. And I kind of pick and choose like that is how you can find me, I’m more than happy to, to help people to share ideas to give more than I take. But at this stage in my life, I’m not interested to get back into the agency business. However, my advice is available.
I love it, Jimmy, I don’t know that he ever that makes me feel so great, like Harlan is in a position in his life where you know, he’s doing what he wants to do, and nothing else. And I love it. So I respect that. Harlan before we get to our tips and our hacks for the week, want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group get involved there Harlands involved there, we have a lot of great experts. And attorneys actually limit the number of people that are non lawyers in the group, we’ve actually kept up to this point, it’s very, very hard for anyone to get into the group. So we don’t want anybody selling to the group. So but we do have people like Harlan in the group because of their expertise. And then also, if you don’t mind, go to iTunes or wherever, get your podcasts and give us a five star review. It really does make a difference. Jimmy, what’s your second week.
So on the date of this recording, it’s October 1, and my project for October is I have a stack of sticky notes sitting at my desk. And each time I do something different this month, I’m making it into a sticky note. And then at the end of the month, I’m going to compile all my sticky notes into different categories. And then I’m going to either automate it, eliminate it, or delegate it. And I’m just sort of putting into practice in a practical way in a way that I can see I already have up on the wall about 16 things that I’ve done today that I can then start either giving out to other people or systematizing it in a better way so that I can start to back myself out of the day to day operations.
Nice. I liked I liked it a lot. It’s more I think more of my thinking. So I think that’s pretty awesome. So Arlynn I think you know this, but if you don’t we always ask our guests to give a tip or hack of the week, do you have a tip for our listeners,
I think and on the heels of what Jimmy was just saying is you have to learn whether to work in your business or on your business. And I think it’s very important to work in your business. But if you want to grow your business, you have to learn how to work on your business. And I think that’s what I heard Jimmy saying with with a sticky note deal, and you know, trying to delegate more, but that would be my tip of the day. I want to give you guys an honest plug. I really enjoy being part of the group, I really enjoy understanding what people’s struggles and efforts are, you know, by reading the day doesn’t go by that I don’t go to the to the Facebook page, and you’ve done a remarkable job. You really you guys have really been great mentors, and showing people opportunity.
We really appreciate that. I think I can speak for Jim by saying that, that really means a lot that honestly, in my opinion, I kind of view it as a crowdsource podcast, you know, we, we don’t make money off of it. You know, that’s not the point. The point is that we all grow together. And it’s all because of people like you, Harlan, other attorneys that contribute. And so it really is sort of a crowdsource podcast is a crowdsource conference that we did everything that we do is sort of everyone works together to a common goal. So it’s pretty cool. So
my business started the absolutely network because nobody knew what to do. We all just got together and said okay, what should we do?
Alright, so my tip of the week is this let people know that I use tetra, tetra is just a wiki for your law firm and something that I realized I take a lot of notes, Jim knows this. I take a ton of notes about everything. I hold on to them and don’t really do much with them. For other people. I kind of keep them I hoard them to myself and what I’ve been doing is I’ve been uploading them to the firm’s tetra, so I can share my notes with other people in the firm. It’s actually sort of opened my eyes as to what I can do with Tetra so if you’re if you have tetra, or some wiki, or even Evernote or something like that, that you share with your team or Dropbox I start uploading your personal notes to that whatever database that you’re using. And because you can use it and people can learn to feed off of that and actually learn what you know. And I think it’s a good way of sharing your knowledge on things. So, Harland this has been great to have you on. I really appreciate it. You’re, you’re a great person to know you’re a great person in general. So if anybody wants to reach out to Harland definitely do cuz he’s a great person, Bill Harlan. Come on. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it.