Automate Your Systems to Scale w/ Kelsey Bratcher 313
Categories: Podcast

This week on the podcast Jim and Tyson joined friend of the show and one of the MaxLawCon 2021 speakers Kelsey Bratcher!

Kelsey is an automation expert for small law firms. He is a Zapier Certified Expert, Pipedrive Partner and the host of the Get Automated Podcast. He has been helping small businesses leverage the power of automation for 13 years and has saved over 15,000,000 minutes for him and his clients businesses.

4:20 automation sales for sales and fulfillment
10:15 being aware of what’s available to you
10:44 Duct Tape Marketing
16:10 CRM vs case management
20:23 software jumping
23:41 benefits of hiring vs diy
27:57 automation pain points

Jim’s Hack: Everytime Jim has sped up his sales process he has made more money. It’s about eliminating friction.

Kelsey’s Hack: Kelsey recommends a M1 MacBook

Tyson’s Tip: Constantly assess the systems you use to see if they’re doing what you need them to do for you, and if they’re not then look into other systems.

Watch the recording here.

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Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.


Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.

Tyson: And I’m Tyson Mutrux. What’s up, Jimmy?

Jim: Well, this is a real treat because we have one of my best friends and favorite people on the show today. He’s been a supporter of my firm for many years. His name, Kelsey Bratcher. He’s been on the show before. He is an automation guru. He has his own company called Hired Gun Solutions. He also helped us run the first ever Maximum Lawyer Zapathon in January 2020.

Kelsey, how are you my brother?

Kelsey: I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’m currently in Arizona.

For people that don’t know me. I’m a full-time RV-er. And so, I typically try to chase 75- 85-degree weather year-round. And, unfortunately, I’m going to be grounded in Arizona for a little bit because my oldest daughter is about to graduate from ASU with her teaching degree. We don’t know if they’re going to do a ceremony or not but, you know, we’re going to be here to throw a little bit of a party for her when she reaches that milestone, so we’re excited. But it’s going to get hot here. I’ll say that.

Tyson: Hey, man. Hot’s good. Nothing wrong with that.

So, I don’t want to go into too much detail because I think a lot of people know you, but will you talk a little bit about your background? And I usually ask people, “Hey, will you tell us about your journey?” But just give people a cliff notes version of Kelsey Bratcher so they know who you are and why you’re so badass.

Kelsey: Sure. Sure.

I mean, I’ve always been like a techie like in the automation. Like I remember the first time it had occurred to me that I can automate my job, I was grinding spreadsheets at this call center doing data analysis. And I learned about like Excel macros and how to use formulas to do things instead of like clicking on every cell and doing all these like little simple tricks. So, that parlayed into me getting a job at a company called Infusionsoft, which is now Keap, in 2008, and I became an implementation specialist where I’d work with new customers that purchased Infusionsoft and helped them get off the ground up and running, either bringing over their existing stuff and building it in Infusion or whatever the sales guy lied to him about I would have to build. And so, that was kind of the starting point.

Over the course of that time period, I got divorced. I went to a men’s therapy group in Mexico. I met a dude that paints houses. His best year ever was $275,000, in 20 years of going door to door cold calling. And I helped him grow his business to $3.6 million over the course of a three- or four-year time period by implementing the same like systems and processes using Infusionsoft. And he actually won an award.

And that’s how I met Jim because Jim was in attendance at a conference called Icon, which is small business Icon, which was Infusionsoft’s user conference. And Jim had reached out to me. I think I did a webinar at the time to kind of talk about what me and Brian were doing. And so, Jim had reached out and we started working together. I think I had about 10 or 15 people. that I was working with at the time, that came in from that particular like, I guess, publicity. And Jim has been with me ever since. And it’s been–

So, we got real deep into doing all the law stuff. Started out with Infusionsoft, doing mostly marketing related– email-marketing related campaigns, and then, we started getting into more of the like nitty-gritty, behind-the-scene stuff of like intake and like how the intake people are assigned. We’ve been into Clio, and Lead Docket, and Filevine, and Process Street, and like every other tool you can think of.

And so, that brings us to today, Jim and I still work together. Most of time, I mean, you’ve got a lot going on, Jim, as of late, but I work with Adela from his team and Laura Clark from his team, every day, pretty much.

Jim: All right, Kelsey. And I know that you have been working a lot more with lawyers than you were when we started. And I know a lot of those folks have come from Maximum Lawyer. And, you know, we always have people that are really happy to have the chance to work with you. Without, you know, going into specifics about any particular attorney, what are some of the mistakes that you see lawyers make when it comes to automation or trying to automate, and I would say, with maybe a focus on sales and on fulfillment?

Kelsey: So, I would say probably the biggest– I mean, this is generally true about most small businesses, is that sales, following up with leads, making sure that leads get contacted quickly, that you’ve seen them through to a conclusion is kind of a term that I borrow from a guy that I worked who’s a real estate coach and he teaches this concept of, you know, if you’re going to get a lead, make sure you see it to some kind of conclusion, whether it means that you’re not going to work with them, that you’ve called them enough where you’re not going to get in touch with them. You’ve met with them but you know that you’re going to sign with them or whatever the situation is that every lead reaches some kind of conclusion.

And so, if you start from that framework and you build your systems around that to make it so that, at least, you’re following up with everybody, then that’s usually the biggest and most easy– like, that’s something that anybody can fix. They don’t need to be, you know, working with someone like me and they don’t need crazy software, except crazy software can make that easier when you have more leads.

So, I would say like the first thing is identifying like, “Hey, if I get a lead, this is what should happen to it. It gets a call by this person.” And lay out what those steps are because you can’t automate something if you don’t know what it is that you’re trying to automate. And that’s that’s what a lot of people kind of– they’ll get into Zapier and start messing around, or they’ll get a new tool and start messing around without any like clear objective, I guess, is the way to say it. And that’s probably the biggest mistake/struggle that I see a lot of people have problems with.

And then, once you’ve gotten that down, then you can start doing things that are like fun, like optimization where you’re– like, in your case, Jim, when you started working with Gary Falkowitz and the kind of stuff that we– the changes that we had made to what we had already been improving upon along the way, you know, the turnaround time was faster. According to Laura Clark, you guys just had your best week ever, as far as new starts. I mean, it’s a compounding factor of, you know, the amount of time that it takes for us to get in touch with a lead, the amount of time it takes for us to get an attorney to talk to ‘em, to get ‘em to sign papers, and get ‘em to pay. 

I mean, back when we first got started, I think– I mean, I remember you telling me that it was like 13 days, on average. And I think now we’re like under four. If I were to like look at the stats, I think we’re under four days. Meaning, from the day that that person becomes a lead to when they start. And, now, it’s like, “How do we make it two days?” I mean, those are the kinds of things that that we’ve been looking at.

And as far as like the other side of the fence, like that’s way significantly more complex. I mean, we’ve been working together for– we’re going to be going on seven years, almost, I think, now. And we’ve, now– I mean, I would say, in like the fourth and fifth year, we’ve been focused on like once the sale actually occurs because a lot of the stuff, historically for us, was just continually massaging and getting all that stuff kind of humming along and working together.

We finally got into the position now where we’re working on like, literally, we’re doing Filevine 2.0, as we call it, a revamping of like how you guys implemented it in the beginning to we want to specialize different, you know? I don’t want to say– how do I say it? What’s the word they use in Filevine to describe– anyways, the different groups that you can use–

Tyson: Somewhat project types?

Kelsey: Yeah, project type. That was the word I’m looking for. It’s late. I’m sorry. I’ve been working since 5:00 a.m.

Yeah, project type. So, we’re doing custom project types for, you know, the main categories of what you practice. And so, I’ve got to learn way more. I mean, I already felt like I knew way more about immigration law than the average person. But now, I’ve gotten real deep in by working with Adela, who’s one of your paralegals. Laura Clark’s been super helpful in like kind of laying out like what the big picture is and like identifying where a lot of time is wasted.

I mean, there’s simple things–

The weirdest thing that I noticed, like I spend all day, every day, in front of a computer doing this kind of stuff. And sometimes there’s some weird habits that I noticed that people have with computers and using technology that like doesn’t make sense. An example of that– and like this is a recent discovery, Jim, is we had a couple of file upload fields in Filevine. And like, what would happen is they took off the ability to like add a hashtag and direct them to a folder because they felt like it was annoying to navigate through folders. But like is it more annoying to click on a folder to look at social media posts and then know that there’s only social media posts in there, or is it more annoying to look at 75 images to figure out which ones are social media posts?

And so, you have to look at those types of activities that you’re doing where like your horribly inefficient in how you’re going about it. And so, by simply like layering on these like little things, like making sure that, if it’s a social media post, that it goes to a social media post folder. Those are the kinds of things that I think a lot of people overlook that are easy and accessible. I mean, most of this stuff shouldn’t even cost you any extra money and really quick type of turnaround to just fix these things as you go. 

Tyson: So, Kelsey, and we talk about–

I’m going to back up a little bit because [inaudible 00:09:41] automation all the freakin’ time. We talk about CRMs, and automation, and emails, and everything. And you’ve worked for Infusionsoft. And I know that, before Infusionsoft, you used to say, you know, write it out before you start your processes and mapping everything out. 

So, let’s say that you’re just– like you’re new to the CRM and automation game. I mean, where do you think– and I want you to assume that these people have no knowledge as to how to do it when it comes to automation.

Kelsey: Sure.

Tyson: Like where do you think people should start when it comes to like the process of working everything out?

Kelsey: I think the first thing is to kind of make yourself aware of what’s available to you, as far as technology, by either talking to your colleagues, people– like this podcast explains that I think probably exceptionally well. But there’s a book that stands out in my mind, that I read a long time ago, that lays out the kinds of stuff that we’re talking about in a digestible non-techie way. And that book is called Duct Tape Marketing by John Jantsch. It’s been around for, I think, 10 – 15 years now. And it lays it out. I mean, it’s kind of out of date, last time I looked at it, but the reference points for what a CRM is for, how it should be used, the kinds of things you want to be tracking, like these things help you lay out what your objectives are when you’re implementing this type of technology. 

Because like the interesting thing is that I– and attorneys talk about intake all the time. It’s a constant coming up. It’s the specific word you guys use to describe selling, I guess, is the way to say it. And so, the intake process of getting a lead, talking to them on the phone, qualifying them, and then having them sign up for– you know, whether it’s– however that happens, with paid consults, with free consults, with whatever that situation looks like. I mean, it’s sales at the end of the day.

And so, there’s a lot of resources, when you look outside the attorney space, that basically explain how these things work. And that book, I think– if you’re like a complete beginner, like maybe this is like you’re just starting your own firm. You have no idea how these things work. That books going to lay out the core elements that will carry through until you, you know, are spending your life doing what I– [laughs], I guess, is what I would say.

Jim: Yeah. So, we had John Jantsch on the show, episode 179. Duct Tape Marketing is certainly one of those books that I refer to, even now, and that, you know, it’s one of those ones you can always come back to. It’s really about sort of marketing, you know, on a shoestring budget. There are a lot of good ideas for people that are just starting out.

Kelsey, talk to us a little bit about sort of your transition now to spending more time with lawyers. How are you enjoying that? Sort of what are you doing more of? What are you doing less of? 

Kelsey: That’s a good question.

I mean, as of late, and I think it’s partially because of my association with you, Jim, that I got a lot of attorneys like coming to me, looking for help with the type of stuff that I do. I mean, it’s kind of always been there, I think, but I just kind of didn’t– I disregarded it because I was, you know, focused on a specific software or I was focused on– like I had started a marketing agency with a client of mine and we were working with stem cell clinics. And so, it was kind of like, out here on the, you know– out, I guess, in the outfield, I guess, would be the way to say it. 

So, I think, for me, one of the things that changed is I had a business destroyed because of COVID. And so, that kind of forced me to re-evaluate the market. I mean, who would have thought that getting a bunch of old folks into a room to sell them medical treatment, that’s elective and cash only, wouldn’t work in COVID-19. Like, that’s just not– the whole business is built on that strategy. And then, it just was gone like instantly.

So, it made me re-evaluate like, Okay. Well, out of all the clients that I’ve ever worked with– I mean, I’ve worked in real estate, insurance, home improvement like construction. I mean, you name it, like every type of small business, aside from maybe like mom and pop retail stores and restaurants. Those are the kinds of two really big business categories that I’ve never really done a lot with. And they all have different kinds of challenges and different kinds of problems. And there’s always constraints, I feel like. And the more I’ve gotten to work with attorneys, the less and less of those constraints that you guys experience.

So, like, yes, you have regulatory boards, and you have governments within governments that dictate how you guys have to operate. And long history of like practicing law to influence things. But as far as like being– like the software you guys use, it’s all like right there ready to go to be able to do the kind of stuff that I do. Like, you don’t have the same problems that like doctors, and chiropractors, and dentists have. They have to do all this HIPPA stuff. Their software’s all locked up and like you have to really go out of your way to do things. And then, in addition to that, a lot of the work that you guys do on a day-to-day basis is fairly tedious. I mean, when you actually get down to the like nitty-gritties of composing certain types of documents and things like that.

And so, when I look at those types of problems, it’s very apparent that, you know, the skill set that I’ve developed over the past 15 years or so just so happens to work really well for what you guys are doing. And I would’ve never thought that I would have learned so much about a particular marketplace, I guess, would be the way to say it. Basically considering, like, I don’t think I’ll ever know everything but like I have a good idea about how the different elements that go into a law practice, as far as technology are concerned, to get to, you know, whatever. I mean, I don’t even know how to describe it, I guess. But that’s kind, I think, the long the short of it.

And then, the other thing that you guys are a heck of a lot more committed to your businesses than the average business owner which is always a pleasure for me because I can get right there with you on how you want to be able to work in your practice. And so, like real estate agents are flaky, like there’s– I wish that I could say that that was different, but the stakes that go into becoming a realtor are just not the same as an attorney. It’s just not this– you know what I mean?

Tyson: So, Kelsey, the number one question that we get in the group, in the big group, is what CRM should I use or what case management system should I use? And I’m not going to ask you that question because it’s so subjective. But what should people analyze? Like, what should they be taking into consideration whenever they’re looking at a CRM and a case management system? Will you talk about the differences between the two and then what people should look at?

Kelsey: Yeah. So, the one thing that I will say, for starting with case management systems. And the ones that I’ve had the most experience with are Clio and Filevine, like hands down. Filevine, by far. But Clio, a close second. Those tools are very for it. 

In my usage, in comparison to like other tools that I’ve used, they’re not built for selling stuff, primarily. I mean, yeah, you can kind of hack it together and like keep track of your leads a little bit, use some tasks to remind you what to do, but it’s not a sales tool. And so, it doesn’t have a lot of the features that a tool that’s purposely built for helping you sell and do marketing, that are absent.

Now, they have a lot of integrations with both of these applications but, for the most part, I don’t like the way that they–

To be able to differentiate between a lead and a client, it’s difficult. And so, you have to use tools that make the problem that you’re trying to solve easier. 

And, in the practice management software, it’s to run your practice behind the scenes like keeping track of cases, where everybody’s at, who’s doing what, like that kind of stuff. Who owes you what money, you know, your trust account balances and all that type of jazz.

But as on the front end of like keeping track of like where your leads come from, the marketing that you want to do to those leads. Who is talking to them? And, you know, where are they at in your sales process? Have they talked to an attorney yet? Have they not talked to one? Has intake called and qualified them? Whatever that scenario is, you need a tool to support that or a variety of tools to support that.

And so, one of the things that I’ve been thinking about– I mean, I have my preferences. I like working with Pipedrive primarily for lead management and sales because it’s just so flexible, and it’s easy on the eyes, and people seem to just get the hang of it. But the main reason I like it is because I can do all the things that are asked of me from like a selling perspective, right, and like crazy things that would never apply to the legal practice. But it’s just very flexible. And it works extremely well with Zapier.

And so, I’ve not found another– we’ll just say another CRM/sales tool in this space that it’s as easy just to use as that. And so, that’s– 

I think probably from the framework that you want to look at is like, “Where can I go?” And like the one thing I’ll say as well around– especially around CRMs and a lot of the– there’s a lot of like marketing/sales software emerging in the legal space like Clio Grow, Lawmatics, like all these types of tools. And the main challenge that I have with them is they often have what I call the attorney tax stamped on them where it’s like, just because it’s for attorneys, it has to be more expensive. And it’s like there’s way better tools for less money, if you just get out of those ecosystem of attorney tools. I mean, use wanting to run your practice by all means. But like to sell stuff, use the tools that sales companies use.


Jim: Running your own practice can be scary. Whether you’re worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you’re losing control over your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.

Tyson: Maximum Lawyer in Minimum Time is a step-by-step playbook that shows you how to identify what your firm needs and how to proactively get it at every stage of the game so you’re prepped and excited for the inevitable growth that will follow. Name the lifestyle that you want and we’ll show you how to become a maximum lawyer in minimum time. Find out more by going to

Jim: So, we’re talking today with Kelsey Bratcher on the Maximum Lawyer podcast. He’s the owner of Hired Gun Solutions.

Kelsey, we have a question from one of our members in The Guild that tracks what I wanted to ask you next which was, looking back at the years you and I’ve worked together, I would say that I, as a law firm owner, had a tendency to want to jump from one piece of software to another before we really had even built out– I mean, we were with Infusionsoft for a long time. But after that, I sort of bounced around from thing to thing. And Will and The Guild wants to know, you know, how do you focus more on implementation as opposed to just sort of looking for the next shiny object? 

Kelsey: That’s actually a good question. And I will say, we did do a lot of jumping around, Jim, but, in your defense and also my own because I was right along with you, the jumping around, we had good reason to do so. So, it wasn’t like we were just like, “Ooh, let’s check this out. Ooh, let’s check that out.” We ran into problems that were going to be prohibitive to us moving forward in a direction that we felt would be beneficial to your practice, right? Like, there’s no way that we would’ve been able to do the four-day sales cycle that we’ve gotten going right now, if we were still on Infusionsoft. It’s just it wouldn’t have happened.

Well, we could have done components of it but like from beginning of getting a lead all the way to an invoice customer that’s paid in QuickBooks, and then also transitioning them into Filevine, that’s not something we would’ve been able to do on the platform that we were on.

So, when I say it like there’s one thing that I’ve come to learn like, obviously, I am a reseller of Pipedrive, so it is in my interest to sell Pipedrive to people. But the thing that I don’t underestimate is, the tool sets that you have may not be perfect but there’s something that’s important that, if you have traction, it is better to utilize the traction that you and your team may already have and go further with what you have than it is to try to go somewhere else because you’re going to lose that traction, you’re going to lose that adoption, that your team has built into the tool set that you already have. People undervalue it. But like I would rather have, let’s say, an okay tool that people are using all the time than the best tool that nobody touches. And that’s the biggest.

Probably like, as I’ve matured in my life and also in working with businesses, I don’t I’m not going to go and– unless I like absolutely hate it. Like, “I absolutely hate working with Infusionsoft,” so get off of it [laughs]. 

The main thing is, if you have these things, like making a change just for the sake of changing isn’t going to be beneficial unless you know you’ve run into a dead end, which is what led us out of a lot of different tools, where you think– like if you have an objective of being able to close new leads in, let’s say, a very short period of time with a short sales cycle then you need to think about, “Can the toolset that I have help me accomplish that mission?” And if it can’t, then you need to start looking at maybe there’s add-ons. That’s the easiest place to start is “What can I add on to my existing situation?” rather than completely diverting down a new path? 

But if you don’t have traction, and like you’ve tried it three months, and nobody’s using your tool, just get the hell out of there. Like just get to something that you think– try again. That’s the kind of the easy way to sit.

Tyson: I’m not going to mention the software, but Jim and I have had that issue with our people with buy-in on the certain software. And I feel like you’re talking directly to me, Kelsey, about Infusionsoft, but I am shopping other CRMs to see what works for me. But that’s not my question.

So, it’s going to be funny coming from me because I like to sort of build this stuff out myself. I mean, you and I were on a call with Christopher Nicolaysen the other day. I mean, I was just like, Listen, there’s a certain point where like I’ve reached my limit as to my knowledge in what I can actually do. I feel like I’m pretty advanced compared to other lawyers but like there’s just a limit, right? So, for the people that are sort of doing it themselves and I’m not asking you to, you know, do a sales pitch or anything like that. That’s not what that is. What I’m asking is like what are the benefits to hiring someone like you, right, like as opposed to– I know it may seem obvious but like there’s really like so much that someone like me can do, right?

Kelsey: Right.

Tyson: So, how can someone like you just take someone’s game to like some basic level to like to the moon because I’ve seen what you’ve done with Jim and it’s just amazing. So, will you talk about the DIY-ers versus people that use professionals like you?

Kelsey: So, I mean, it’s all like– and that’s such a– because I like working with people but I’m not cheap, right? I mean, Jimmy paid me good money and I appreciate it every time, every month that we work together. And it’s not for everyone’s budget to be able to pay and to work with somebody like me. But there are people that are available in this space, this no code revolution that’s kind of going on behind the scenes, where it’s more– 

Like the concepts that are involved with computer programming are now have been like less and less like specialized knowledge is required to do it. And so, you have a lot more creativity that can go into there. And so, I would say that finding someone to work with is easier now than ever. And then, the price ranges from– you can go on Fiverr and find people to help you do simple stuff, all the way up to like, you know, people that are going to take equity in your business– well, maybe not in a law firm but like equity in your business in order to work with them. Like that’s kind of like the upper end of what I’ve observed where like, if I’m going to help you grow your business by, you know, 5X then I want, you know, 10%, or whatever. That’s part of the game.

So, what I would say is, there’s this like weird issue with like “How far do you take it yourself?” And I think the best thing that you can do, and this would behoove you, as a business owner, is to not necessarily get like DIY hardcore but like understand like, “Okay, if I’d spend this much more time doing the thing that makes me money, then it’s easier for me to do that than it is to spend the same amount of time to not even scratch the surface on a problem that you’re facing,” if that makes sense. So, it’s easier to get more high-level, visionary-type of mindset about something and then find a team to help you build it than it is to try to do it all yourself.

And like I’m a do it yourselfer. Like I’ve significantly hampered by own personal growth and business growth because I’m so– like that’s my default. I’m just going to figure out how to do it and do it myself. And only until like maybe the past three or four years, have I started adapting a different mindset where it’s like, I know that I can go and do what I do to make the money to get this problem, and pay someone, and save time and money because I paid them to do it, if that makes sense. 

It’s weird like I just saw a comment of “who not how”. I’m in a mastermind called Titans of Direct Response Marketing. It’s a remnant of my former business. We joined before COVID. And Dan Sullivan was speaking and who not how kind of resonated because, at the time, that was like almost my own realization was– I mean, learn the high level of it but, realistically, you’ll be better off time, money and– I mean, everything is just to find someone to help you do that, I guess is the way to say it.

Me, personally, I mean, I’m looking at like– the challenge that I see is like you guys, especially in the legal space, I mean, how much time– just to go to become a lawyer. You had to go to school for a significant amount. I mean, you almost had to make a lifestyle choice early on in life to become a lawyer, right? And so, like it’s the amount of time you’ve invested in reaching that milestone to have to take the same amount of effort and then try to get good at like, say, what I’m doing. It’s silly, right? When the better idea would be to become a better business owner and understand like how you need to structure it, what the business needs to look like, all that jazz, because you can find people to align with it. And then, secondarily, it’s easier to find people to help you with the different pieces that are going to be needed to get there along the way. 

Jim: When you meet with new lawyers, lawyers that you haven’t worked with in the past, or potential new lawyers to work with, what are the main pain points that people are expressing to you when it comes to the problems that they’ve had with automation?

Kelsey: I mean, usually, I think the biggest problem that I’ve observed in like, recent time period, is either people had tried to do it themselves and get in over their head, or they’ve like outsourced it in an irresponsible way, I would say. So, like the biggest complaint that I’ve seen would be the outsourcing of stuff to irresponsible outsourcing, I guess, would be the way to say it. And it’s nothing against the person that they outsourced it to but like you have to provide enough guidelines and knowledge to do the thing, right?

Like, if you get a virtual assistant, they’re very good at doing exactly what you told ‘em to do. But if what you’re telling them to do is not good, or it’s not smart, or it’s not the best way to do something or whatever, then they’ll do it poorly over, and over, and over again for you.

And so, I’ve seen a lot of– I don’t know. Can I cuss?

But I’ve seen a lot of messed up systems and usually it has to do with poor guidance. And then also lack of experience of the people that are building it.

Or like if I’m going to be implementing a system for somebody, like, I’m not just going to take orders and go to town and build it. Like, I’m going to tell you, “No. That’s bad because of this reason. Or we’re going to do it like this because the, you know, 10,000 hours that I’ve been building these types of systems tells me that this is a better way to go.”

And so, it’s kind of like a hybrid of consulting/ I guess, freelancing where, you know, I actively– you know, I actively am building your stuff out for you, Jim. But like, at the same time, we’ve spent a lot of time noodling over the kinds of problems that we’ve had to solve. And we’ve enlisted help from like Gary Falkowitz, for example. Like we were beating our head against the rock to try to get there and he’s just like, “Stop doing paid consults.” And like, as soon as that constraint was lifted, it was like, “Oh, well, we can just move fast now.”

I mean, obviously, there was a lot of, I would say, soft skills stuff that had to happen from like we built our phone scripts via Gary’s help. I put together a tool to make that easier. And then, just incorporated that into– it was just like the thing we needed someone to give us permission to do, I guess, would be the way to say it.

Tyson: I think that’s a great way of putting in.

So, we do have to start to wrap things up.

Kelsey: Sure.

Tyson: But, Kelsey, and I think you’re booked up, but I’m not sure. But if people want to reach out to you to see if you’re available for work, how do they get in touch with you?

Kelsey: The best way to do it is going to be email. At the moment, my website’s a little out of date. I’ve been busy, right? It’s going to be That’s the best way to go. You could go to my website and do it. But go email me at or message me on Facebook. I’m in the MaxLaw Facebook groups. 

And, just real quick, because like a lot of– I’ve had some folks that are hesitant to reach out to me because they feel like maybe like I’m just going to start jumping right straight into selling ‘em a package or something like that. And the reality is that, I participate all the time, I regularly answer questions in the Max Law Group when I can answer them, right? Like if it’s technologically related to software that we all use. Like if you’re going to ask questions about like documents and stuff – lawyer stuff, I don’t know anything about that.

But I do know about these tools. And so, I try to participate and help out whenever I can. And if that means, if all you need is like a 10- or 15-minute Q&A to get unstuck, to help you get to the next thing, or if you have a tough choice coming down the pike of like, “Should I buy this software or should I buy this one?” and you just need someone to, I don’t know, bounce the idea off of like I’ve offered that up to folks in the Max Law Group because of what– your guys’ generosity to me over the years has been more, I mean, life changing anything I could have possibly done. And so, I like to give back in any way I can. And then, if it makes sense, for a project either because my time is now available or if that’s something that makes sense, I mean, I’m open to that.

I wish I had something to be like for this much money, you can get started [laughs] but that’s probably coming down the pike in the future.

Tyson: Yeah, Jim, we’ve got to help Kelsey get some sort of product together to sell, for sure.

Kelsey: Yeah. I’m open ears, yeah.

Tyson: Well, I know I’ve texted you some ideas, so we’ll have to get some of those worked out for you.

Kelsey: Yeah, yeah.

Tyson: But we do you need to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everybody to get involved in the Facebook group, like Kelsey mentioned. Also, if you want to join us in the Guild, join us at There’s a lot of high-level discussions going on there.

And then, if you don’t mind, while you’re listening to the rest of this episode, giving us a five-star review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. 

Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?

Jim: Before we get to my hack of the week, I have a few things that I want to say. One was that I just found out that there’s a podcast called Gary Vee Cursing Free so that they’ve edited out Gary’s podcast with no cussing. I just want to say that this is the longest I’ve ever spoken to Kelsey without him cussing and I’m not sure why because we didn’t say “don’t cuss”. It’s totally fine.

If you like what you heard, from Kelsey today, and if you’re interested in going on this journey, a couple of things. Number one, he’ll be speaking at MaxLawCon 2021, which is on October 9th and 10th, outside St. Louis, Missouri. So, make sure to get your tickets for that. Those tickets are on sale. It’s fun. We’re selling a couple every day. So, it’s with very little promotion that people are buying tickets for that. So that’s exciting.

The other thing is Kelsey has a couple of different seasons of his get automated podcast. And you could do a whole lot worse learning about immigration than listening to Kelsey talk on those podcasts. You can find it– and I would start at the beginning and go through them. You’re going to learn a ton, especially mostly about mindset.

But then, as far as my hack of the week, I want to mention something that Kelsey has said to me many times on our journey together and he touched on it a little bit at the beginning of the show. And that is that every time we have sped up my sales process, and we’ve done it, we’re probably on iteration 10 or 11 now, of what we’ve done so far. Every time we’ve sped up the process, I’ve made more money. And it’s true, we just keep eliminating friction, keep eliminating friction, and make the whole thing so much easier.

I mean, in the old days, one of the attorneys in our office would do a consult. They would say, “Hey, Jim, do a contract.” I would draft it in Word. I’d print it out, sign it, email it, send it to the person. Then, they’d send it back or they wouldn’t.” And now we have all this automation. It’s seamless. We can get a contract to somebody, three minutes after the call. And then, we have a whole sequence set up to follow up with them if they don’t sign it. So, it’s a great mantra. It’s a great thing to be looking at your processes, “How can I speed up the process to make it as frictionless as possible for someone to work with me?”

Tyson: Jim, I think– I want to get a timer on this. I think that might be your longest hack out of five years of podcast. I think that might be your longest hack which is interesting.

And we do have a question. We have the lineup done almost I think it’s done or not done but– or close to being done. We’ll have the lineup posted for MaxLawCon. I’ll try to get it posted this week. So, we’ll work on that so that everyone knows who’s actually speaking at MaxLawCon.

Kelsey, as you probably know, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. So, do you have a tip or a hack for us?

Kelsey: You know what? I was [inaudible 00:35:25] to say it like, if you’re an Apple user, you should get an M1 MacBook Pro. Change your life. If you’re not a Mac person, then, you know what, I don’t want to tell you. But the M1 Mac Apple Silicon, is what they call, is fast. And like I can unplug my laptop and I can work eight hours without having to plug it back in.

Tyson: That’s incredible.

Kelsey: Eight to ten hours without having to plug it back in. Like it’s insane. Like I never thought that there would be a day where I could just like literally take my laptop, disconnect power, and also, not really lose any performance. It’s crazy. So, that’s my hack of the week is, if you’re an Apple person, upgrade or switch out your stuff to M1, unless you have a compelling reason not to, but I don’t know if one. For me, personally, I need to have one.

Tyson: What’s an M1?

Kelsey: So, Apple has had friction with Intel over the years. Like there’s beef there. And a long time ago, Apple products did not use Intel processors in them, they use a different technology. And so, secretly, behind the scenes, you know, iOS devices like iPad, and the iPhone, and so forth matured, they started creating their A1 chips, or their A1, or A12, or whatever they’re on now. And so, that that same type of processor architecture, they’re now using in the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini. And soon, to be there are other products, I’d imagine. And so, it creates like a uniform type of situation. And it’s a significant performance increase. 

The other thing is about is half the price. So, like for half the price of your top-of-the-line MacBook Pro, you can get, you know, one of these M1 MacBook’s.

Tyson: Wow!

Kelsey: It’s sweet.

Tyson: I like it.

Kelsey: The battery life is crazy. That’s all I have to say.

Tyson: Wow!

Okay. I mean, I think my MacBook Pro is pretty good when it comes to battery life. It’s not eight hours battery life but–

Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah, that’s why–

Tyson: That’s pretty incredible.

All right. So, my tip of the week is, since we’ve been talking about CRMs and everything, I’m not going to recommend a certain CRM. But I will say this, I mean, I’ve been sort of dug into the trenches when it comes to Infusionsoft for years. I had so much time into it, it was sort of cost prohibitive to get out of it.

But, as things have changed, as different options with other platforms have changed, as I’ve gotten more guidance from Kelsey, my tip is to constantly re-assess the systems that you use and see if it makes sense for you to continue to use them. Do they do the things that you need them to do? And if they don’t–

What you’ve put into those systems already, those are sunk costs. You’re never going to get those back, anyways. So, look into other systems. Figure out what works best for you. And then, if you have to jump ship, jump ship, because, ultimately, it’s going to benefit your firm in the long term. 

Kelsey: One thing. I want to add to that real quick because we’ve moved a lot with Hacking Law Practice. And like the first time is hard. The second time is less hard. And then, by the time you’re moving into your sixth to seventh version of whatever you have, like, it’s way easier because– like it’s harder to build the thing once than it is to rebuild it again. Like it takes like half as much time to rebuild something that you just built. So, the timeline. If it took you three months to get to where you’re at, it’s only going to take you six weeks– well, if you do it right, six weeks or so to get to the next tier. And like that timeline, it’s not as hard to get out of the tool that you’re in as you might think.

Tyson: Great point. Very good.

All right, Kelsey. Thank you so much for coming on again, buddy. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you for all the guidance you’ve given me over the years. And I know that Jim’s got a lot more out of you. I mean, you’ve been very generous with your time with me too. So, we really, really appreciate it.

Kelsey: Thanks. Anytime.

Jim: Thanks, buddy.

Kelsey: Bye, y’all. 

Tyson: Thanks, gents. See ya.


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