In this episode, Jim and Tyson interview JoAnn Holmes, an intellectual property and commercial agreement attorney who runs her own law firm. They will go through her process of going solo, lessons learned, and as always, advice and tips for the ones taking the leap and going solo!
About Jo:
Jo is adept in distilling complex information into understandable, result-driven and pragmatic advice for clients. Having practiced law for 17 years, her career began in the Tech & Intellectual Property practice group of Troutman Sanders, a prominent Atlanta law firm. There, she successfully represented a gamut of clients, from start-ups to Fortune 100 companies.
Moving in-house, Jo served on business management and legal teams in senior leadership roles for both public and private international manufacturing companies. Jo is well accomplished in both negotiating sophisticated domestic and international commercial contracts, as well as resolving high dollar disputes cost effectively. She’s managed global IP portfolios, and negotiated licenses for businesses with products in over 70 countries.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joannholmes
Hacking’s hack: A simple Hack. Keep your downloads folder clean and in order. You will find your files really easy!
JoAnn’s Tip: https://www.ycombinator.com/. How To Start a Startup. A goldmine of information. https://startupclass.co/
Tyson’s tip: An app. https://www.youmail.com/.
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Transcripts: JoAnn Holmes: Going Solo Case Study
JoAnn Holmes
I am absolutely dumbfounded at the amount of great information that is available on podcasts. I mean, if I’m doing laundry or driving or whatever, I’m listening to podcasts and I am getting my fake free MBA. It’s between running the business and listening to podcasts and just learning how to improve.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum layer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
I’m tasting music wasn’t Jimmy
Jim Hacking
Eisen. Good morning, sir. Good morning. Good morning, we had a pretty good guest today. Yeah, one of our members from the Facebook group. She told us that she grew up in Kansas City. So that’s how she first felt connected with us. And that’s great, because we’re always talking about building connections with whomever we come across. Her name is Joanne Holmes. She’s a graduate of Stanford University and the Emory School of Law, she practices down and went to Georgia. She’s an IP intellectual property lawyer. Joe, welcome to the show.
JoAnn Holmes
Good morning. Thank you both so much for having me.
Jim Hacking
Well, we wanted to have you on the show, we wanted to hear a little bit about your story about how you transitioned Why don’t you tell us what you’ve been up to since law school and how you came to start your own firm?
JoAnn Holmes
Sure. So I graduated law school in 1999. And I literally did not know what intellectual property was when I walked through the doors. But it really helped me sympathize with my clients and others who say, tell me what you’re talking about. Again, I was very fortunate that I started my career at a great full service, large firm in town here in Atlanta. And I worked with excellent attorneys who were great for setting a good foundation. And I was there for about five years. And then I moved in house and spent most of my career as an in house attorney, serving on management teams for international companies and are making really lean law department where you just kind of figure out solutions to problems, which was good. I found out when I was in house attorney how much I really enjoy the business side of things and made a decision in 2015, to take the summer off to think and pray and figure out what was next and made the decision to start my own practice. And I focused on two things primarily, as you mentioned, on one side, the intellectual property, and on the other side, doing all the types of commercial agreements that clients need with their customers and vendors to protect and grow their businesses
Tyson Mutrux
do and you send us a list of lessons that you’ve learned, I sort of want to start there. One of them is niching is good, but it’s a work in progress to get it right. We talk a little bit about that. Sure.
JoAnn Holmes
So one of the things that I think I started learning when I was in house counsel is definitely borne out in my own practices, that you have to be adaptable. When I started the firm, I thought, What do I know. And I knew what it felt like to be in house counsel and be pulled in lots of different directions. I joked around that the sun never set on my client base, literally would start in the morning with clients in Australia and work back through Africa, in Europe, and then the East Coast of the US and the West Coast of the US and check back in on Australia at the end of the day. And so I really learned how to adapt to both business conditions and what client’s needs were in different parts of the world. And when I had the the opportunity to start my own practice, I really got to say what do I enjoy doing? And I thought, Well, when I was in house counsel, because I had so much coming at me, maybe I could just be the person who serves as support for other in house counsel and lean organizations who needed additional support needed somebody who could hit the ground running and just be productive and helpful for clients. And that’s not the way that things turned out when I started the business. And so I just had to kind of hustle and get out there and meet folks and talk about what I do and how I can be a resource. And now the business is sort of coming back around to that. So my focus at this point is twofold. It’s one on doing that outside role where I own a function, maybe intellectual property, maybe contract negotiations, or a support role to existing in house counsel. And the other side that I’m focusing on is really jumping in and being the outside general counsel for clients in the seven to eight figure revenue space, where they’ve oftentimes got a CEO or CFO, maybe a CEO, but no attorney who can jump in and understand the business strategy and align the legal function in support of that. So in terms of the niching, right down sort of figuring out how do I go from the base of clients who I worked with to get the business start Ready to adapting to that more established client base. And I think it absolutely makes sense. Because once I started the niche, it helped me narrow down on advertising and choices about how I network and spend my time and so forth. But it’s very much a work in progress.
Jim Hacking
So let’s step back for a minute. I really liked that idea and what you did in the summer of 2015, when you said you sort of took the summer off to think and pray. Can you walk us through sort of what happened during that summer and what what your mindset was going through that process?
JoAnn Holmes
Sure, I’ll always step back a little bit further, Jen, which was, I had been in house counsel at my first company for nearly 10 years. I’m a single mom, I have been throughout my career. And my daughter was at that point about to move to high school. And we agreed as a family that it would be okay, I was really blessed that I was able to work from home for several years. And that was a good balance. For me between doing sophisticated international IP work, I was managing an IP portfolio in 130 countries, and again, serving on a great diverse management team, but also able to be there for my daughter, which is really important to me. So I stepped into this the next in house role, which was a more senior role, and quite sophisticated work. But the reality of that was that I left home in the dark, and I came home in the dark, I hardly saw my daughter, I really didn’t see my family or friends much in service work is very important to me. Last year, I did over 125 hours in service work. So I just felt like I wasn’t balanced as a person. And I was making great money, quite frankly. But my job was pretty much my whole life. And knowing that my daughter was going to be leaving for college, and a few years as she is next year, I had to be very honest with myself. And especially as a single mom, it was hard to say I was willing to give up a very attractive compensation package because my job just wasn’t aligning with my values. And I really liked my clients. And I liked the work that I was doing. But I didn’t like that my job was my whole life. And so I made some very careful decisions, having spoken to people who are really close to me and praying quite frankly about it a lot, that I was going to give myself some space to think. And so I wanted to be fair to my GC and I gave him six weeks and said I will do absolutely everything I can I had thought through a transition plan, I worked with the attorney who was hired to backfill me and to this day, we’re still friends. And she’ll call me and say, Hey, do How did you think through this, and I’m happy to still be a resource for her. But I had to make a very, very hard decision I to this day, I can’t say that it was easy. It was an act of faith. And so I took that summer off, and I let my mind rest. And I didn’t realize how long it had been since I had allowed myself to do that. And I read a great book called The Confidence Code that spoke to Type A personalities like me, and it just said, you don’t have to have it all figured out that the best laid plan you can and just get started. And so I did, I was really honest about the type of legal work that I enjoy doing and the type of clients that I enjoy working with. And I just got started. And I have to tell you guys, I’m the happiest I’ve ever been in my career. And it has been such a blessing because I’ve had conversations and had opportunities to do service work and met people and work with clients who I never would have worked with if I had stayed on my in house corporate path. So it’s just been, it was the right decision. But it was not an easy one to make. Joe, that
Tyson Mutrux
is an awesome story that took a lot of strength for you to do that. I think that’s something that listeners can take away from is leaving your job, starting your own firm, breaking from your partnership, whatever it may be. It takes some strength. In your message to us wondering your lessons learned. I want you to talk about this too, because it goes along with what you’re just talking about is having a safe and prosperous mindset. I wish I left my favorite thing that you said to us is having the faith and prosperous mindset. Then you say if I run the business, well, the revenue will come. Will you talk a little bit about that as well?
JoAnn Holmes
Yeah, I am a person of faith. I think that comes across and I’m not a believer in pushing my faith on anyone else. But it is truly the way that I have managed my career. I did not intend to become a single mom the same year that I graduated from law school. So my entire career has been an act of faith. And I really had a moment earlier this year. You know, I’m very accustomed to having a steady paycheck and I am grateful that I was a good steward over our resources over the course of my career. So I had the financial wherewithal to step out and start the firm, but I still am I’m adapting to the reality that some months are better than others in terms of revenue, and I found myself just unsettled, really unsettled about the finances of the business, because I’m the type of person who sets the plan and you just go attack the plan. And so this has been a humbling experience for me that things don’t always work out as smoothly from month to month as I would like. And so, I’m a believer that there’s only so long that I’m going to allow something to scare me before, I’m gonna push back and face it. And so I said, All right, this, this thing about the business finances is scaring me, it’s time to face it. And I’m, again, really blessed that I’m not in a position where you know, I’m not gonna be able to pay my mortgage. But I wanted to get to the core of what was bothering me. And I realized that I just had a fearful mindset instead of a faithful mindset. And what that meant, for me as a person of faith was, I had to say, my security comes from my position in space, and not from the revenue of this firm from month to month. And that was not revolutionary. That was, as I say, the way I’ve managed my entire career. But when I shifted my mindset, I’m not up in the middle of the night, worried anymore. And I do believe that there’s plenty of opportunity. And it’s a matter of being diligent and following through and doing the things that I know are right. And that’s really one of the reasons that I’m so grateful to have this unit to be on your podcast, because I am absolutely dumbfounded at the amount of great information that is available on podcasts. I mean, if I’m doing laundry, or driving or whatever, I’m listening to podcasts, and I am getting my fake, free MBA, between running the business and listening to podcasts and just learning how to improve either I’m learning something that directly impacts the way I manage the firm or market the firm, or the way that I consider my resources, or I’m learning something that I directly apply to help my clients to be more strategic and prudent about the growth and momentum for their business. So I do think that we have to face our fears. And for me, a big part of doing that is just trusting that my faith has never failed me, and there’s no reason that’s going to change now.
Jim Hacking
So there’s so much wisdom in what you said. And I can really tell that you’re very well grounded spiritually and mentally. And I think it’s great that you’ve talked about facing fears. I’m always trying to get Tyson to face his fears, but he sort of cower in the background, and he just refuses to face his fears. But I love the idea to about the podcasts, um, I’m always listening to podcasts, I didn’t know a thing, a thing about marketing. And I learned it all by podcasts, and listening to people, YouTube videos, all kinds of resources out there. So I think that’s a great point. One of the things that we talked about in our exchange before we got on the air, and when we’re emailing back and forth was about a great point that you made, which was to advertise where people are looking for your services, and that referrals are still the best business source. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about who your avatar clients are and sort of how you go about trying to find them for
JoAnn Holmes
and again, that is something that has changed. So I will tell you that in my first year, and I’m at about my 20 or so into this firm now. And in my first year, I remember that I was just frankly naive. And I, for example, spent $1,800 advertising on a news website. And I thought I was asking good questions. And they were telling me about the demographic of people who visit the news site. And I thought, okay, those sound like people who could be small business owners or considering being small business owners, and I will tell you, I got not a single lead that came from advertising on that platform. And, you know, I learned from that, and decided that I needed to pay closer attention. So literally, every time someone sets up a consultation with me, or every time I take a call with someone, I make a point of asking them, how did you find me? And it’s, you know, it shouldn’t be a surprise, but it was just part of my learning cycle to realize that so much of my business comes from referrals. And I think it’s really just taken time, people were accustomed to me for most of my career being Joe who worked in a corporate setting. And so I’ve been really grateful that so many of my former colleagues have been great advocates to say as they realized that I started home that law, hey, you should reach out to Joe, she can help you on that. Or what’s begun to happen recently is my old company had reached out to me and said, Hey, are there ways that you can help us because you already know the clients and you have expertise in these areas. So In terms of the Avatar now, I think it has adapted from where it was in the first year of the firm. And again, now I’m thinking through, where is there an unmet need, and how does that match to where my greatest skills are. And because I was so fortunate to be able to serve on management teams, for companies in the eight to nine figure range, I really know what it means to jump in and do that. So I understand what it means that we have to hit an EBIT dot target, but there is litigation that we’re working through, we’re trying to map around that or I understand what it means that we are trying to develop a long strategy across several countries. And I need to think through all the intellectual property implications and the different types of agreements and what the applicable law will be across those different jurisdictions. Or I understand what it means to sit down and say, Okay, here’s where we are with respect to that we’re going to have to do a series of layoffs, or bring certain work in house that we were using third party vendors, how do we cause as little disruption? And how do we understand what our contractual obligations are to meet that objective, and I really enjoyed being part of that business focused strategy team. And what I have found, as I have worked with clients, since launching homes, that law is that, that seven to eight figure revenue space is a sweet spot. There are a lot of folks who started those businesses, maybe with a good friend or with a family member, and they took off and they got some growth and momentum. And then there’s never really been anyone to step in and say, let me help you think through how we should be drafting your contract. So the great deals are evergreen, and the ones that are just to get your foot through the door, are maybe a set timeframe, so we can come back and renegotiate pricing? Or how can we handle change management so that there’s a new revenue opportunity potentially there or with my software focused clients? How can we make sure that the different channels that the license aligns to are bringing in different revenue or there’s an addition of revenue when you come in and consult on hardware that aligns to your objectives, or what you’re using the software. So I really enjoyed that business focused strategy piece that comes from being a part of that management team. So my avatar now is focused on getting in front of those clients where I can be a member of that management team and help hit the business
Tyson Mutrux
goals. That’s fantastic, Joe. Now, we’ve talked a lot about the stuff that you’ve learned, but you also have a couple DSL called issues that you’re going through. There’s two things you’re working on is time management and delegation. What are the issues you’re gonna go through with that?
JoAnn Holmes
And you know, I’ll be honest, Tyson, the first year, I did everything by myself. And I did that because I found that when I tried to bring people on as independent contractors or for a project, I really wasn’t being fair with them, because I didn’t know what my expectations were. So how could I expect him to hit my objective? So I really took the time the first year to try to build systems to test my tech stack and figure out how do I want to run this business. And the second year, I have been more focused on building out a great team and building systems that work for the team and that help improve on efficiency. I’ve heard different things. I think Lee Rosen, for example, is a big fan of just focus on business development until you hit you know, a certain number. But for me, I’m so concerned about my professional responsibility to serve the clients well, that I don’t want to get ahead of my skis and say, Okay, I’ll bring in a bunch of business, and then worry about how to serve the client. So I’ve really been trying to build out my team, I joke that I’m like Beyonce, and I have an all girl band. But part of the reason that I’ve structured things that way is because being a single mom, myself, I really want to walk the talk. And I have a team of people, all of whom have family responsibilities, either to their parents, or to their children, or what have you. And my firm is very adaptable. So everyone I work with is an independent contractor, primarily who I found through up work, and I call on them as I need additional help, but I know there’s still room for efficiencies. So one of the things that someone said on a podcast was, my assistant has access to my email and my assistant just fields questions for me. And one of the things I’m learning from having a team is people have different strengths and challenges. So some people on my team are super granular, and we go through things with a fine tooth comb on the front end, and I never have to come back and revisit with them because they’re gonna do it exactly right from there on. Others don’t ask as many questions. There’s not as big a time investment on the front end. But then we iterate as we work through Some things. So I’ve been just sort of trying to figure out how do I turn over more things, knowing that at the end of the day, I’m so responsible and Tyson, I love that you are so focused on systems. That is really what I’m working through. But I have to say, I’m not at the point where, for example, I can say, Okay, I’ll give my email to my assistant, because I know that that’s going to take time to develop a system around, okay, what things Is she going to do? And how am I going to make sure that they’re done? And how are we going to deal with some of the confidential things that are in my email, I know, I need to get better at that delegation piece, but haven’t figured out the logistics of how to get it right. And have that peace of mind that I’m also being respectful of certain things that are confidential.
Jim Hacking
Joe, I think that you are a hard charging personality. I love all the passion and vigor that you’ve brought to this conversation. And I think that you are in a practice niche that is sort of involving you a lot. That’s sort of a high touch where your clients are expecting to hear from Joe herself a lot. And I think that you probably feel that way too, that you you sort of like that. And that’s sort of part of the representation that you you bring to your clients. Would that be fair? Yeah, that is Jim. Yeah. So that’s something that’s really hard to scale. But I think that Tyson feel free to jump in here. Because I know that you have developed some systems on this stuff. But I think that there does need to be a little bit of a mindset change, and that you do need to spend some time thinking about, what is it exactly that only I can do? And what are the things that other people can do, and maybe even within the email example, maybe there’s a way for you to maybe be the initial screen of the email, and then just be willing to give up more of that stuff and sort of transition to it. I also think that independent contractors are a great thing. But eventually, there might come a time where you have someone that you work with 40 hours a week as an actual employee of your firm, and that they just sort of learn your, your rhythm and your response types and sort of your mindset. And I think that over time, you’d begin to trust that person more and more and be able to turn Moreover, I think it’s a little bit hard with independent contractors to build that connection with with a second person.
JoAnn Holmes
And I asked you to kind of drill down on that, Jen, because I think you’re spot on. And in anticipation of speaking to you guys, I kind of thought now, how much work am I doing with the different folks who right now a virtual assistant, I have a marketing manager, I have a junior attorney. And I have weekly meetings with my marketing manager, for example, but my VA just knows the things that I need her to do. And the junior attorney I call on her as I need her. And I thought, Should I be consolidating this? I mean, I think I could get pretty close to a full time person, but it wouldn’t have the skill set of what each of those different folks do. So how did you guys make a decision around when you needed a full time person versus somebody to just call on from time to time as you need their support?
Tyson Mutrux
To Joe, there’s a lot I want to cover here. But with that, with that specific question, I always had this mindset going forward that I was going to automate a bunch of stuff and something that you may and I don’t know, if there’s a specific form, or a group of forms that you use with every single client, there probably is, to a certain extent, even though I know you, it suddenly give a very wide reaching practice. At the very beginning, I created what were called case packets. And this may help you. So it basically had every single letter that I would use, or every single form that I would use for a client for personal injury cases in every single form and a large Word document, and I just call it a packet. And I just didn’t control, replace. And I really would replace the name, case number, all that kind of stuff with it address. And I would just do Ctrl F or Ctrl H. And I think it’s one of those to replace all of those. And that a really easy way for me to automate really early on. But I always had that mindset I was going to going forward. And so I think you’re very small tigers, you’re thinking about this, it sounds like you do have a bigger view for your firm, bigger vision. So that’s really good. So you’re thinking that way? And I think you need to keep thinking that way. So that you can keep moving forward and keep growing because that is one of the biggest challenges I think any of us faces as we grow. How do we scale what we’re doing? And it shows starts to show cracks in the boat whenever your systems are set up improperly. So I think that you’re you’re doing a really good job with that. Hopefully I answer that question. If not, when I’m done let me know if I didn’t with the delegation part of it. I always say that, but it really is going back to the basics you need to list take a no but no pat around with you for an entire week. And list every single freaking thing you do every day from start to finish. Just like if you were billing hours for a client Do the same thing for yourself. And that you’re going to be able to identify things that you can delegate that you can eliminate completely there, I guarantee you there are things probably 10% of the stuff you do right now. You can just eliminate, there’s things you can outsource which I want to talk about the second the things you can automate, then automation is not always you know, paying for an expensive service and having things done for you and automate it. That’s not necessarily what it is. I know we talked about Infusionsoft a lot. But you can automate things as easy as what I was just talking about with with a case packet. But with outsourcing, I’m sure I use up work heavily. But I’m sure you’ve probably made a lot of mistakes with Upwork. Because outsourcing for me initially was extremely difficult. And I failed like five times in a row because it just wasn’t working. Because it was all on me. I had not had well defined roles. And by this point, I have figured it out each person each virtual assistant, whether they be a marketing virtual assistant or illegal virtual assistant, each one of them has to have a very narrowly focused role. For example, my guy, Gino, the only thing he does is transcribing, he doesn’t do anything else. He doesn’t expand anything else at all. He only transparent things, the only edits videos, that’s all he does, he doesn’t do anything else. So they’re very, very defined roles. And so when you’re outsourcing, it’s okay for you to have 10 different virtual assistants, as long as they do a very defined thing, and they fit as a cog into the wheel.
JoAnn Holmes
Can I please interrupt and ask about that? So when you’ve got people doing define roles, I presume that you identified them for that specific role. But what does that mean for you in terms of managing them? You have somebody who’s between you and them, so you don’t have to focus on managing them? How do you it seems like there’s some work that goes into making sure all those folks in their areas of specialization, are accomplishing what you need them to accomplish.
Tyson Mutrux
You’re absolutely right, but it’s okay. So within each well defined role, you tell them what happens next. Okay, so, yes, they do this work. But this is what is expected of you. This is the work you do, and this is what you do next. And the way it works for me. I’ll give you a just the whole video process. So whenever I record a video, so and this is just one example of how it might work for you. So in my office manager, Kelsey, actually, she is the one who’s responsible for managing the virtual systems, but I still have the interaction with them. So I will record a video uploaded to Google Drive. What happens then or there’s two things, the dish pulls the video down from Google Drive to start the editing process. Gino, he pulls the video down to start the transcription process. Okay, once that’s done, Gino knows to then forward that transcription to Kelsey. Gino knows to forward that video to me. That’s their next step. So once that’s done that that’s I look at it I review it and I make sure okay, because sometimes there is a as you know, there’s there’s a language barrier sometimes with these. So sometimes the video editing is wrong. So sometimes the video has the wrong text in the video, which is fine. It’s like like the word for you know, there’s, there’s multiple spellings before so you’re in FLR, right? So you have to make sure you edit things like that. I didn’t send a message back to the dish as changes need to be made. Then Gino, the after the editing has been reviewed by Kelsey. It gets forwarded back to the dish the dish then uploads it. And it’s done. It’s over with nothing else gets done on it. So that’s just a simple way. I guess it sounds complicated, but it’s really not because they know what they do next, so that they know what to do and they know what to do next.
JoAnn Holmes
Okay, so why did you decide that you want to be involved in saying this should be FLR instead of fo you are? Why are you involved at that level?
Tyson Mutrux
I don’t really know. That’s a good question. I guess it’s something that I could easily have Kelsey do but I, I like seeing the videos. And I like to see if they’ve been done properly. I think part of it is also as I want to make sure that the video came out, okay, from a visual standpoint. So the that’s probably part of it, I could easily hand it off to Kelsey. That’s something that can easily be done. So that’s a good point. But I prefer to actually see that video, I think I’ve got a little bit more marketing knowledge, a lot more marketing knowledge than what what Kelsey has. So that’s probably why it’s not just that part of it. And that’s just the FLR versus fo you are it’s more of there’s the visual part about what to say.
JoAnn Holmes
Yeah, and see, this is so helpful for me, because these are the kinds of I have been doing exactly what you suggested Tyson where I’m keeping track particularly I started it because I was like, why am I spending my time doing this? And so I opened up a note in OneNote and just started keeping track of things that I was like this does not require my time I need to start keeping record of these. So I couldn’t figure out what should I be handing off. And then now it’s evolved into what am I spending my time on? That is the highest and best use of my time so I can contrast the two but what use It is so good for me because it allows me to compare how are other people who I respect in terms of the way that they run their firm making these more granular decisions? Is this something I’m being too possessive of? No, because I know more than other people in the firm about marketing, versus if it was truly just a matter of how to spell the word for, that’s something that probably should be delegated. So it’s really helpful for me to hear that example, because now I know how somebody else is making these things through.
Jim Hacking
Yeah, and I think to Joe, when we got back from iKON Tyson and I, for me, what I’ve been trying to do is just sort of identify things that I’m doing more than once, if I’m doing something more than once, I’m trying to first write it down on a spreadsheet, where we’re, we’re making lists of the things either automate, or delegate and then do that, that sort of higher level thinking of how do I let go this one little thing and just do them one at a time.
JoAnn Holmes
Yes, and I’m a huge fan of automation, we use type forms to help us automate our client intake process, I work with smith.ai, for I have to tell you that it was life changing, not answering my own phone more. And we set up a back and in support with Calendly. So missed him set up both free and paid consultations for me, and just put it on my calendar, because it syncs with my Google Calendar, when someone does the client intake form, my assistant has set it up. So the information comes from that to set up our folders on Google Drive. And to set up the information on our client conflict form. It sends me something in Todoist, for my daily task manager to say, okay, a new client is signed up, do the things you need to do to sort of onboard them. So I’m a big fan of automation. And I find that my clients really appreciate it, because it for example, they’re doing a paid consultation. So they set up a time on Calendly Calendly, automatically sends them an email that says, Okay, I’m confirming your consultation with Joe, on this day at this time, here’s the link to do the client intake form. Here’s the link to law pay to pay the fee for that. And then my assistant and I will get automated notifications on Slack, so that we can go ahead with the engagement letter. And then she’ll send the engagement letter out through sign now. So people can click on it and sign it on their smartphone or on their desktop browser. So I’m a big, big fan. And not only for the efficiency of the firm’s, but I think clients appreciate that, that they’re busy running their business. And so the more that I can make the ways that they work with me automated and accessible on whatever digital tool they have, the better for everyone.
Tyson Mutrux
Oh, Joe, you get it. I love it. I love how you get it so much. I I’m so glad you said that about the automation. So the biggest resistance I hear from other attorneys about automation is that it takes away the personal touch. And it absolutely does not take away that getting it improves the client experience because they’re getting so many more touches from you. You’re educating them about the process, or you’re updating them about the process. So I love that you get it is so fantastic. So glad you said that someone on the show, I pointed that part out, I do want to jump back about the email, I just want to make sure I address this because it’s something that I’ve been trying to tinker with myself because I want to get I hate I hate checking my email, it is probably my least favorite thing throughout the day is checking my email. And so something I’ve been tinkering with is all one, we have electronic notifications in Missouri. And so it those automatically go to my system that I get them and she does as well. So that’s one small way of dealing with some emails. So as an E notice comes through, I know that I don’t have to check it because it’s already been checked by my assistant and she alerts me of things, things that get put on the calendar that need to be put on the calendar and so I don’t have to worry about so if it’s urgent, she lets me know. But another thing is I’ve been tinkering with is our templates. And this is a Tim Ferriss trick is because most most questions are most emails that come from clients or companies, they really fit into narrowly fine categories. Like it’s either on an update on case where are we on the case? You know, is there any new offer with injury cases? Or has there been a new offer things like that? Or their marketing type emails or their sales type emails? Islay think there’s a way and I’ve created a list templates I’ll be happy to share them with you where I haven’t I have not pulled the trigger and had someone else check these for me yet. But is I think we could create templates and have our assistants respond with templates. I really do. Now, with a virtual assistant I am hesitant just because they’re not tied into the firm as much as someone that’s in house. And so if I were to give away that power of checking my email, it’s probably going to be to an in house person and not necessarily to an outsource person. So I don’t know what are your thoughts on those ideas?
JoAnn Holmes
Let me tell you how much I love a dog on template Tyson because I felt the same way and I started this really As in house counsel, because I found that my clients would come to me and say, Joe, I need a contract that does x. And I would think, right, you cannot ask me to draft the contract and walk away, there are a series of questions I need to understand about your deal before I can draft a contract to reflect those deal turns. So I started way back when coming up with a set of questions. And because so many of my clients were in sales, or or for that matter, marketing, or they were C suite, I knew I was only going to get their attention for so long. And so while I had their attention, I need to be concise and clear about the information I needed back. So I started this back in my in house career, but what I’ve done with home that law, and again, would be its intention to hand off some of these things to my assistant is, I have a note in OneNote, which I know I’m going to probably ultimately need to move over to some sort of Google Doc, so it’s accessible to others in the firm. But I know there are certain types of questions, I do a lot of trademark work. And people will ask me questions about what is trademark clearance and registration look like? Well, I’ve been answering that question several times a week. So I literally just copy that email and paste it. And then I leave little spaces in it to customize. If there’s something unique about that client’s business or something I know that they’ve shared with me when we were speaking about what they want to achieve. So I highlight those customizable points. But going back to being more efficient and working with an assistant, quite frankly, I’m not confident that my assistant knows my clients well enough to know those personalized pieces so that it doesn’t come off as a canned response. Because one of the things you guys I know this seems obvious, but it has just been a big lesson learned. For me. The thing that I think my clients liked the most, is they like me, as a person. I mean, I spent so much of my career focused on being competent, and being responsive and providing good legal advice. And I’ve been so surprised that people hire me quite a bit because they’re like, Yeah, okay, you’re a good lawyer. But I like you. I like that you check on me, I like that you asked about my kids. I like that, you know, when my wedding anniversary is I just like talking to you, Joe. And so I’m trying to find a way that I can be consistent about as much of that constant information as possible. But give that level of service that feels personal. And that’s when I’m struggling with handing off to my assistants, because that matters to my client.
Jim Hacking
I think that’s a legitimate concern. And that’s one of the problems of scaling. It’s just hard to do that. I think Tyson would encourage us both to think of little small things that you can automate, like you’d mentioned that you know, their anniversary date, the obviously that’s something you could, you could create a simple email that makes it look like you’re just sending them off the cuff, but it’s automated, where it just says, Hey, I just remember that today’s your anniversary, hope you and your spouse, have a great day or something like that. And then you can bridge the automation with the human touch. And I think that, that it’s just a matter of thinking it all through, obviously, you came with everything. But also if you get too, so tighten, and think that the reason that they’re hiring you and that they like you is because it’s you, I totally get that. But I think that’s also a trap, because that’s going to keep you from being able to scale.
JoAnn Holmes
I think you’re right. I mean, I don’t want to be narcissistic, but I don’t want to lose that personal touch. And I think about my service providers and who I really like to work with. And it’s it’s a combination between being competent and providing a high level of service. But I do appreciate those personal touches as well. And there will come a point when, if I do want to scale, I’m going to have to either do what Tyson does, which is when he onboard the client, introduce them to the whole team, be that via video or have images of the other folks on the team on the website so that people feel more comfortable with them. But it’s outward and inward. I’ve got to get my team more comfortable with client interactions. And knowing the clients and I’ve also got to get clients more comfortable with the team. And that is a work in progress, to be honest.
Tyson Mutrux
And you know what Joanne, the whole firm ran the firm growing the firm, it’s a work in progress anyways. So I think we’re all learning something that John Fisher talks about this too. He has these masterminds because he’s always learning as well. So we’re constantly learning. I am gonna wrap it up Jimmy I think we’re getting a little close to we’re over time really but for we get to the hack and the tips of the week. I do want to remind everybody go to the Facebook page, join our Facebook group, and make sure also you like and share us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts make sure you give us five star reviews. If you like our podcast, hopefully you do. But Jimmy, do you want to give your hack of the week?
Jim Hacking
Yeah, my hack of the week is a little bit unusual. Given the fact that you Tyson have said how much you hate email, I’m going to encourage each of our listeners to send you an email when they’re done listening to this episode Mediatrix, law.com, tasting, calm everyone, just send Tyson a note, say hi, give him a shout out, I really appreciate that.
Tyson Mutrux
Well, actually, if you’re gonna do it, do it right, with the new firm, it’s Tyson. And that’s injury.com. So make sure you do it to the right email address, I will get the other one. But it will check the new email address more often. So
Jim Hacking
I do have a real hack too. And it’s a very simple one. Lately, I’ve gotten into the habit of regularly deleting everything out of my downloads folder. And it really helps me find things faster. When I do download stuff. You know, with everything in the cloud, we are downloading stuff back and forth to our desktop, and that folder tends to get really full, one of the other attorneys in our office had never cleaned out their Downloads folder. And when I emptied it out for them, which is sort of sad that I had to do that. They were shocked at their ability to be able to find things. So that’s something that’s just a little hack.
Tyson Mutrux
Oh, like that. Okay, that’s pretty basic, but like it’s good. It speeds up your computer quite a bit. So that’s a good one. All right, Joe, what’s your tip of the week?
JoAnn Holmes
My tip of the week is a little bit of a nod to my alma mater. There is an accelerator incubator company called Y Combinator. And in 2016, they did a lecture series at Stanford and everyone who speaks in the lecture series started and grew a company to a billion dollars or more in valuations. And they break it down to how to interview a potential customer, sales, marketing, how to build a team how to find a co founder. And so even though by no means is it focused on legal practice, it focuses on how to start and grow a super successful business. And so I’m literally encouraging everybody who has any interest in business to listen to it. It’s called How to start a startup. It’s in a podcast form or you can go find it through an internet search. But it’s by the folks at Y Combinator again, how to start a startup. It’s great. It’s a goldmine of information.
Tyson Mutrux
Well, it’s pretty awesome. Very cool. All right. Well, mine is an app, I like to promote apps. And it’s called a YouMail. While you ma il. And it’s really interesting, buddy of mine, Mark Hamer, he answers all of this call from his cell phone, which I think is crazy. But I called him last week. And I left a voicemail and I instantly got a text message and said, Thanks for your voicemail. Please call Michelle at this number, if it’s an emergency. And I was I was so impressed by that. I thought it was so awesome. That he had automated that a small section of his phone call process. And if they need something urgent, they can call someone else basically and get their issue handled. So he doesn’t have to call them back. And YouMail has a lot of different features. They can respond to this call. There’s a lot of different things we can do. I don’t have it respond to this calls on my cell phone. And I don’t think a lot of business calls anyways. But it does let my referral partners know that if they call me they can also reach someone at my office if it’s an emergency. So I think it’s really great called you mail. It’s really interesting. I had actually, I didn’t realize this I had signed up for you mail seven years ago. And as whenever I signed back up with it, and they use the same email address, I had to reactivate the account, apparently, and had all my voicemails for seven years ago. So it’s really interesting to listen to voicemails from seven years ago. Certainly odd. But so it’s really kind of cool. So that’s what I recommend you male. So do you have anything else to add?
