This week on the podcast Jim and Tyson chat with Dave Aarons, the founder and CEO of Unbundled Attorney whose mission is to promote the awareness of unbundled legal services and other options to working families who may not be able to afford huge, up-front retainers, and connect them with forward-thinking attorneys who want to grow a profitable law practice and stay at the forefront of the legal industry.
Dave also loves to golf, often competing as a scratch golfer all over the country. He is an avid traveler, having spent time in over 30 countries, and is also very passionate about inspiring business leaders to become more socially conscious.
7:03 the access to justice problem
14:29 making more money by lowering the barrier to entry
18:30 limited scope retainer agreement
20:30 a little bit of help can go a really long way
23:45 limited scope with difficult clients
Jim’s Hack: If you have some good habits that you've fallen away from, try to get back to them today or tomorrow and just get back on the horse.
Dave’s Tip: Making sure that I take time for the things that I really love and giving myself full permission to be able to spend time doing the things that give me joy.
Tyson’s Tip: Just a reminder to reach out to the people that you love, and start getting out to see them again, and have those lunches, have those coffees because those relationships are extremely important and we've not had a chance to really go out and share with people over the last year.
Watch the interview here.
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Run your law firm the right way.
This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.
Let's partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show.
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?
Jim: Oh, Tyson. Long time no see. This is our second episode we recorded today. We haven't done that a long time, have we?
Tyson: No. And it sounds like we might be finding another time this week to record. So, it might be three in one week.
Jim: Yeah, we have to get some in the can because summer’s approaching and we always have to have some in the backlog.
Tyson: We’ve got vacations coming up. You know, trips to go on, you know, and things like the jury trials opening back up, you’ll never know. So, a lot of fun.
Jim: Well, let me go ahead and introduce our guest. His name is Dave Aarons. He's the founder and CEO of the Unbundled Attorney and works hand in hand across all departments to help that company's growth and mission. He's a scratch golfer. He's an avid traveler. He's traveling right now. He's been to over 30 countries. And he's passionate about inspiring business leaders to become more socially conscious. That's awesome.
Dave, why don't you tell us a little bit about unbundled and about your journey to today?
Yeah. So, Unbundled Attorney is a network of unbundled attorneys all across the United States that provide unbundled legal services, also known as limited scope representation, discrete task representation, depending on the state you're in. And that's just, you know, attorneys that are willing to limit the scope of their involvement down to specific agreed-upon tasks rather than requiring all clients to pay them, you know, traditional upfront retainer fee and only offer full presentation. So, you know, we can get into more of the details on what that means and how that functions.
But, you know, originally, my background, you know, I've been in the legal industry my entire life. As a non-lawyer, my background is in the legal access. I got started with legal access plans. Most people would be familiar with, you know, Hyatt Legal Plans and ARAG. So, I worked for a legal access plan company. And I was in the division that would build out the attorney networks for the legal plan as well as helping the consumers with obtaining legal help. And the challenge that we had, you know, pretty much every day, was “How do we get these people affordable legal services?” And it was frustrating, sometimes, to, you know, try to connect them with lawyers.
And through the legal plan, lawyers used to be able to get-- we would be providing them with a discounted rate. You know, usually, 25% off. It's pretty typical for most legal access planning companies. And, you know, we'd send them to the lawyer and they’d give ‘em a free consult. And then, they'd say, “Well, instead of $5,000, it's going to be $4000, you know. Here's where you hire me.” And, you know, a lot of consumers would say, “Hey, that sounds great but, you know, that's not really going to make a difference for me in being able to access an affordable-- you know, to try to get-- move forward in my legal case.”
And so, you know, we started looking for more creative solutions to try to help people. And so, back in those days, it was one of the first things, as we started to connect with attorneys that would just provide them to help with their documents, you know, give them some advice. You know, assist them with being a pro se litigant. And so, this was back in the mid-2000s, mid- to late-2000s which, you know-- some people-- you know, Woody Mosten had already laid some of the groundwork in the late ‘90s, early 2000s, on, you know, unbundled legal services but no one really knew what that term meant at that time and it was pretty kind of early days.
But it was-- you know, Hey, if you can't do the whole case then, you know, why don't we get a lawyer to give you some advice, and draft your documents, and get you some help? So, you know, we started doing that under the legal access plan. It was a benefit, where people could pay a flat rate to have a lawyer help them with their paperwork. And then, we evolved that to the point where we say, “Hey, you know, what if we taught-- you know, we took this model, which was working great, you know, people that, you know, sign up for the legal plan. Maybe, we send 10 of those clients to, you know, one of the discounted rate lawyers. Maybe one of those people would be able to hire a lawyer. Whereas, you know, through the document assistance program, you know, we’re able to help, you know, four, five, or six clients, sometimes seven, you know, especially when we offered them payment plans and so forth for the document services.
So, it was really making a big difference in the amount of people that could receive, you know, legal services from a lawyer. And so, you know, we looked at-- we launched Unbundled Attorney [inaudible 00:03:59], “How do we bring this education, this model, and the service options to the legal marketplace and educate more lawyers about how to provide these types of services to their clients so that, you know, we can start to make a dent on the access to justice problem we have in United States and also help lawyers build a very highly-- you know, much more highly profitable practice at the same time? So, that's been part of the journey here.
Tyson: I mean, I'm assuming there's some resistance to this from the legal field. And part of it might be they just-- I think, unbundled legal services is sort of a confusing term, so. I mean, do you meet any resistance from attorneys when it comes to this?
Dave: Not nowadays. No. There's been ethics opinions that have rolled out all across the United States in terms of, you know, laying the groundwork for attorneys to have the ethical ability to be able to provide unbundled legal services to their clients. There are some restrictions in certain practice areas, mainly the federal practice areas that involve federal law such as immigration or bankruptcy. You know, you typically have to. If you're going to be helping someone with one aspect of their case, you're supposed to help them all the way through the 341(a), for example, bankruptcy.
But, you know, the most applicable is certainly for family law. We've seen applications in estate planning, probate, and those practice areas as well. So, in those areas, you know, there's, you know, plenty of clear ethical guidance for attorneys to feel confident and comfortable with providing unbundled services. There was just some specific, you know, ways in which to do that which you have to have, you know, an agreement with the client, specifically a limited scope retainer agreement, that outlines what services you're providing, what services you're not providing. And so, you have express, you know, agreement between both the client and the attorney on exactly what's going to be provided, so.
And so, the only thing that has varied a little bit, over the course of the last few years, is when the lawyers can provide a limited appearance. And most states, we've seen it kind of evolve over the many years, have enabled attorneys and even implemented procedures where you have notice of limited representation, notice of limited appearance which gives notice to the courts that enables lawyers to let them know that, “Hey, I'm only going to be doing this one appearance.” And so, that's really worked great for attorneys who have the confidence in knowing they can do the limited appearances. But there are still some states and certain local courts where, you know, that can be a challenge where it's not necessarily going to be as possible to do so. So, those lawyers in those regions may need to just limit to just drafting documents, giving advice, and helping people represent themselves pro se.
And that is the vast minority of cases. In most courts all, across the country, now, attorneys can do unbundled legal services a la carte which is drafting documents, giving advice, and assisting a pro se litigant. And then, also now, limited-scope representation which is draft documents, give advice, and also do a limited appearance. And then, of course, you know, that relationship can evolve over time on more of like a pay-as-you-go type of relationship. So that's-- you know, that's-- it's-- and it's nice to see that they have the legal landscape and the bar associations have made it possible for, you know, attorneys to do this because that's really the main concern is [inaudible 00:06:51], you know, is that, you know, attorneys want to help people but they just don't want to get a position where, you know, being forced to represent a client if they can't afford them.
Jim: Dave, talk to us a little bit about the access to justice problem. Explain that to our listeners about how-- I mean, it's funny, because most of the lawyers that we know always say that they want to have more cases. So, I think there's sort of a disconnect between this idea that people are not being able to find the justice that they need and lawyers saying that they need more cases.
Well, you know, most lawyers would know that, over 70%-- you know, for example, in civil cases, family cases, over 70% of filings are by pro se litigants. There's a huge need for legal services. But one of the barriers to entry is the retainer, you know, and that attorneys have, you know, long since been providing the traditional model representation which means, “Okay. You know, you’ve got to pay me 20 hours upfront, and my hourly rate is $250 an hour. So, I need the $5,000 for me to get started on the case.” And that makes sense. You know, it's understandable that attorneys would have that concern.
You know, a decade ago or years ago, when we didn't have the ethics opinions in place to say, “Hey, you can help a client with parts of the case and not be required to handle the rest of it, or you can do it, you know, one phase at a time, or you can, you know, come up with a more creative solution.” So, you know, if an attorney is in a position where they're like, “Hey, I'm going to have to represent this client for all aspects of the case, you know, until and unless I can get withdrawn from the matter.” Then, you need a retainer fee, right?
And so, being able to have a legal landscape, an ethical landscape, that now enables attorneys to provide the service options without, you know, having the concern that, “Hey, I'm going to get stuck on this case or I'm going to get called into court” and all that kind of stuff has freed up the capacity for attorneys to be able to have confidence in offering these service options. So, that's made a huge difference. And a lot of credit goes to, you know, the Standing Committee from the American Bar Association on the delivery of legal services, Will Hornsby, Forrest Mosten, Sue Talia. You know, a lot of the pioneers in the legal industry, the judges and attorneys that have been involved with writing these opinions to give the permission for attorneys to be able to offer these service options.
And so, now that you have that, then attorneys can be a little bit more creative with the way in which they provide these services. They don't have to charge $5,000 up front. You know, most of the unbundled services that our unbundled attorneys offer across the country are typically going to range somewhere between $500 to $1500, depending on whether they're just drafting documents and giving advice or if they're also doing a limited appearance.
And then, you know, our attorneys will typically offer payment plans and able to work around people's budget. You know, it's basically tailoring the amount of service that the client needs to their specific needs and their financial budget. They, they’re coming up with a creative solution. And then, you know, offering one flat rate service at a time-- or one service option at a time.
And so, in order to be able to provide these services, it's just a matter of learning how to do it, understanding, you know, how to do the limited scope retainer agreements, what type of pricing options, you know, are going to be most attractive, how to structure those flat rate relationships. And once you learn how to do it, you know, the clients are really happy because, you know, most other attorneys down the street are saying, you know, the big retainer fee upfront and they just can't afford it. You know, they just can't come up with that amount of money up front.
We found that the most-- you know, the vast majority of folks, you know, single parents. You know, I grew up with a single mom, two kids. You know, she probably couldn't have come up with $5,000. But, you know, she could probably come up with $500 and, you know, $100 a week, a couple hundred dollars a week, and could get legal services that way.
And so, you know, that's what we're seeing across the country through the network is, you know, thousands of clients receiving affordable legal services when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to if it was only the traditional model for representation. And also, those attorneys are now, you know, getting those clients and generating revenue and income, and building really profitable businesses from clients that they would have otherwise had to turn away in the past, when they didn't have the legal capacity to do so. So, it's really shaping up to be a real win-win and it’s starting to make a difference in terms of the access to justice problem.
Tyson: So, the only way I can look at this, from what we-- the types of cases we handle, we do personal injury. And, honestly, I kind of feel like-- I feel like something like this would be chaos for our firm. It wouldn't fit for everyone. But the one thing I can think of is like someone coming to us, in the middle of case, saying, “Hey, I've got all the medical records and bills. I need you to draft a demand letter for me.” Or, “Hey, I'm having problems getting my records and bills. Will you get the records and bills for me?”
So, it just wouldn't work for our processes because it would kind of just be right in the middle of everything and chaotic. So, explain to me how the process works though on your end, because I just don't think it’ll work for us. But other firms, it might work for. So, how does that process work from the point that someone calls you to getting it to the attorney? And then, how do they deal with it?
Dave: Yeah. So, typically, we don't see very many attorneys offering unbundled services in personal injury. Usually, where you have attorneys providing unbundled services is, you know, family law, in the estate arena, landlord-tenant matters, and so forth where there's, you know, documents that need be prepared. And also, you have consumers that are having to pay hourly rates or upfront fees in order to be able to access legal services.
And so, it's the areas where-- you know, whereas, for most personal injury cases, it's going to be contingency, so you don't have an access-to-justice problem with personal injury. You’ve got every lawyer under the sun that’d be willing to, you know, take car accident cases and so forth and, you know, be able to handle those matters. And the clients are not going to have an issue of, you know, being able to afford that lawyer. And so, you know, most common is going to be family law for attorneys that are especially just getting started with unbundled services.
And so, the process is, you know, we, as an organization, our job is to both provide, you know, resources and training for the attorneys to learn how to implement these service options into their practice. And then, on the other side, we educate the public and let them know, “Hey, you know, if you've been quoted, you know, $5000 to $10,000 from another attorney, there's another way to, you know, obtain legal services. Here's what unbundled services are. Here's how they typically work. Here's what they typically cost.” And, you know, show them videos and get them educated on, you know, the way in which the unbundled attorneys we work with can assist them.
And then, once we've done that, then we can go ahead and connect them through our platform based upon the jurisdiction they’re needing help with and the practice area they're needing help with, with one of the unbundled attorneys that serves their local region or that county they're needing assistance in. And so, when that person submits that request, we deliver that contact information as a lead to our attorneys. And that's delivered to their inbox and text messaged to their phone.
We also live transfer the clients right to the attorney's office. So, client hits the website, submits the request, gives all details on type of case they’re needing help with after they've watched the, you know, the information on unbundled services. And then, that information - that client information, they're shown a screen. They're able to live transfer right to the attorney they've been matched up with. And then, you know, have a conversation with a lawyer about their specific needs. And then, the lawyer can get them set up for services, and get them signed up, and start helping ‘em out.
Jim: So, how do you guys get paid?
Dave: We are a pay-per-lead generation service. So, it's like an advertising agency. So, lawyers pay us for each lead that the client that we deliver to the attorney's office as a flat rate per lead. You know, it's a representation of the advertising costs associated with generating each lead. So, they, you know, pay us a flat rate depending on the practice area and the region they serve.
Jim: And you said earlier, at the top of the call, that this helps lawyers make more money. How does this help lawyers make more money?
Dave: Well, if you can imagine, if you've got, you know, 10 clients coming in and you've got, you know, lower middle income families-- you might have your wealthy, you know, person, that one out of ten that, you know, has the $5000 to $10,000 up front. But a lot of folks are not going to have that available. And so, you know, if you can create-- if you can lower the barrier to entry and allow people to just make it easier for them to get started with your services. You know, if they only have to come up with $500 to get started, a thousand dollars, $1500, like that, and, you know, can make payments, a couple hundred dollars a week, whatever might be, your average working family can do that. You know, it's just that, you know, the barrier to entry is too high for the average folk, you know, for the average person.
And so, now, that lawyer is able to, you know, obtain that client, collect that revenue, deliver those services. And there are some boundaries around, you know, how you would go about delivering services. So, for example, if you're going to do limited scope representation, you need to make sure you have the full $1500 or whatever it is that it's going to cost for you to do the filing and your limited appearance, in the bank, before you would actually file the case just because, anytime you're providing limited scope, it should be 0% account receivables. You know, paid upon delivery, right?
And so, there are some boundaries there around making sure that you're, you know, getting those fees at the time of which you're delivering the services. But, you know, that being said, these are all clients that would otherwise you’d be turning away, you wouldn't be able to provide them with any services at all. And these folks are becoming retained clients are, you know, usually very grateful to be able to be working with an attorney on an affordable basis because, you know, many of them have talked to a number of lawyers that may not have been willing to offer such creative solutions.
And so, you know, that helps these lawyers generate the new revenue, help more clients. And then, these relationships also evolve over time. You know, they start with doing limited scope representation. That might mean, you know, drafting the documents, filing it, doing one appearance.
And then, we found, about three quarters of the time, the client goes to court. The attorney represents them. They're really happy to have them there. Obviously, you know, probably made a pretty big difference and kind of realize, “Hey, you know, this was a little bit more complicated than I thought it was. And I'm really glad you were there.” And then, they go to the next step. You know, whether it be mediation or whatever’s the next step is going to be in their case. And then, that relationship can evolve. You know, they will enroll for additional services with the attorney, whether it be another flat rate or they can then transition to full representation from there.
You know, there's a lot of clients that you'll start working with them on an unbundled basis for a thousand dollars to $1500 that end up, you know, hiring you for the entire case, over the course of time, as well. You know, so from an enrollment standpoint, it also helps to just get people started with your service. You know, because there's a lower barrier to entry, it's easier for the client to say yes and just give it a go and try out your service for one segment of the case. And then, you know, have that relationship evolve over time.
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Tyson: From a liability standpoint, how does it work? And I know that these are allowed, right? I completely know. I understand these are allowed. But let's say that you've drafted-- Would a divorce petition-- would that be something that might maybe one of these unbundled attorneys have done?
Dave: Yeah, of course. Mm-hmm.
Tyson: So, let's say that the unbundled attorney drafts the lawsuit for the divorce. They file it and they end up handling the case themselves or whatever. I mean, is there any exposure to that attorney? I mean, how do they protect themselves? I'm sure there is exposure. So, how do they protect themselves to make sure that they're not liable for anything after that fact, after they’ve filed it?
Dave: Yeah. So, that's called the limited scope retainer agreement, right? So, limited scope retainer agreement expressly outlines the services that are being provided, the fee that's being, you know, paid, and also what services are not being provided. And most states have sample limited scope retainer agreements. You know, of course, any unbundled attorney comes on board, we can provide sample limited scope retainer agreements. But it just expressly makes it clear that, “Here's the services I'm providing them. I'm doing document assistance for this divorce petition. Here's the rate that you're paying me. I'm not appearing you. I'm not going to be your lawyer of record for this matter.”
Some states are-- there's two different kind of states. One is a disclosure state and one is non-disclosure state. Disclosure means that you have to disclose to the court that you helped that client prepare those documents. Other states do not require that. You can do what's called ghostwriting which means you can draft the documents and do not have to disclose to the court that those documents were prepared.
And so, you know, that's, you know, the legal aspects, you know, in terms of, you know, if you look at the ethics opinions for drafting documents, you have to have, you know, informed consent, and it has to be, you know, expressly clear on what's being provided and what's not. But more on the point, it's also important to look at it through the frame of access to justice, right? We have, you know, 75%-- 70% to 80%, depending on the court, clients representing themselves, right? This creates a problem, right, for the court system, for the judges, for the bar associations, for the legal aid organizations that are trying to get these people services. And when you have a pro se litigant that has no idea what they are doing, trying to go through the court process, any attorney that’s been in court, you know, watching these pro se litigants try to get through this, it creates a real backlog. It creates a problem.
And so, you know, I think, at the end of the day, you know, the courts, the bar associations, the judges, you know, have gotten to the point where they say, you know, “Hey, it's better that the attorneys are providing these clients some help rather than no help at all.” And that's really what was so restrictive in the past is attorneys didn't feel like they could provide them even a little bit of help because a little bit of help can go a really long way for someone that's trying to go through this himself. So, it's not a magic bullet. You're not going to provide, you know, full representation for every single client, you know? So, this is a way for attorneys to provide some guidance to those clients and assist them with understanding court procedure, how to file, get the document served, you know, prepare those documents and get it filed with the court.
And then, you know, like we said, you know, we've seen a lot of states now making it very easy for attorneys to do one appearance. And so, that client feels really good to know that, “Hey, you know, for $1500, or $2000, or whatever might be, I can get someone to prepare this case for me. Draft the documents right through an argument and go to the first hearing.” You know, that's really-- you know, it helps a lot of people feel a lot more confident and comfortable in moving forward with the legal matter when otherwise they'd be left to do it completely on their own.
Jim: So, in my experience, there's an inverse connection between the sophistication of the client and how much money they have versus how much they complain. I find that clients who don't understand my value, don't see the worth that we bring, that they seem to-- and that hyper cost conscious. I think that they're the ones that end up being the biggest pain in the butts as clients. I mean, I think I'm fair with Tyson. I guess, this would be good for people just starting out - lawyers that are looking for an entry into a practice area. But I just think that to build a practice on something like this would be really hard.
Dave: Yeah. I mean, when it comes to the attorneys and their experience working with the clients, I think most of the clients that have been around the block or called a bunch of different firms, and don't really have attorneys that are willing to work with their budget kind of realize that they're in a difficult situation, right? That they need legal help. This is about trying to get custody of their kids. And they don't have the resources financially. And so, I would say that most of the attorneys really enjoy working with the types of clients that are able to receive these services because they appreciate the fact that the attorney is willing to offer a creative solution when they otherwise wouldn't be able to go about it, wouldn't be able to move forward, and receive services from an attorney.
And then, I think the second thing is most of our unbundled attorney-- every unbundled attorney in the entire network also provides full representation, right? So, you know, providing unbundled services doesn't mean that, all of a sudden, every service you offer is unbundled and I don't do full representation anymore. That's not the case, right?
And so, any family law attorney you're working with, it's like, this is something that you can add on to your practice. You don't have to not offer full representation anymore. And what it does, you know, over the course of time, when we work with lawyers over the course of years, what we find is that attorneys start to provide-- they start leading with unbundled services or providing limited scope services, first, with every single client before they go to full representation, right?
Now, why would they do that? Well, because they found that, when you do a limited scope retainer agreement with the client, there's always going to be certain folks that you're describing, Jim, right, that like, you sign them up, you start working for him, and then you kind of go-- you look back and you go, “Man, this is one I really shouldn't have got involved in,” right? Because the client’s really difficult, or they're demanding, or they suck up a bunch of time, or is highly conflicted, or they're the principal client that's going to fight no matter what and all this kind of stuff, and they're never going to be happy and never going to be satisfied, right? You know, that's going to be a suck of time and energy and really pull from your spirit, as a lawyer, in helping these clients.
And so, when you offer a limited scope representation, you haven't signed on to the entire case yet, right? You've only started with them. You've only helped them with one aspect. And this is something that a lot of attorneys will do is they'll offer them that one initial phase first. Draft the documents. Do the advice. File the initial-- you know, file the pleadings. And then, go for that first hearing.
And that's all they've committed to, at that point. They’ve filed a notice of limited representation with the courts. And that's really all they've-- they're on the hook on, so to speak.
So, if you can imagine those clients, when you kind of were like, “Hey, man. I really shouldn't have gotten involved in this one.” But what if you could’ve just not been involved further because you realize that this was going to be a toxic relationship for you and probably for the client, and you are no longer obligated to continue to represent them, right?
And so, it enables you to start the relationship out. The client gets to try your services out. And so, that's why it's a helpful-- it's easier for them to be confident and comfortable with hiring you because it's a lower price barrier. Then, they're only committing to that first phase. But for you, as well, you get to try out the client and make sure that it's going to be a relationship that you want to invest in long term.
And then, what’ll happen is, if it goes well in that first hearing, you know, the client’s happy and you're happy, then a lot of times those clients will then transition to full representation from there, but you didn't, you know, marry the client from the first consult, you know, because that's just the way the legal system set up is, once you sign on as their attorney of record, it can be very difficult to get off that case, you know, if they're not paying or various different-- or they're not following your guidance as a lawyer.
And so, this gives you additional flexibility to be able to figure out, “Are these the types of relationships I want to work with long term?” And especially in family law, when you're dealing with, you know, the kids, and emotions, and all these different challenges, it's really important that you make sure that you are not taking on too many clients long term that are those 10% of clients to take up 90% of your time. You know, I think any lawyer would kind of know, the people we're talking about and mitigate your exposure to those types of individuals so that you're able to continue to have a passion for the practice of law and feeling energized about helping folks. And those people will take that energy in. So, this should give you the additional ability to identify those clients early on and not be in a position where you have to continue representing someone when you have that kind of relationship, if that makes sense.
Tyson: Yeah, it does. It's all really interesting. It's kind of a-- it’s kind of a mix of-- it's like a flip of law clerk but it's the-- it feels like law clerk, it’s the attorneys, you know, needing work so they, you know, [inaudible 00:26:39] to law clerk. It's kind of a flip of that. But then, also, it's similar to like legal services, too. It's kind of an interesting thing, only legal services is free. So, it’s an interesting thing, so.
We do need to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group. Get involved. There's a lot of great activity out there. If you're in the Facebook group, a lot of great information being shared there.
Now, if you're if you're interested in the Guild, go to maxlawguild.com. And remember, conference is on October. It's maxlawcon.com. We will sell out so make sure you get your tickets.
Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?
Jim: So, for me, I've gotten back into my daily routine and it's made a big difference - getting up a little earlier, spending some time meditating, stretching, journaling, and reading, 10 minutes each of those things has really helped refocus my day and it gets me off to a good start. So, if you have some good habits that you've fallen away from, try to get back to them today or tomorrow and just get back on the horse.
Tyson: All right. So, Dave, we always ask our guest to give a tip or a hack. It could be a book. It could be a podcast. It could be anything. And it's to help people improve their practices. So, do you have a tip or a hack for us?
You know, I would say, one of the things that has been most impactful in my life lately is making sure that I take time for the things that I really love and giving myself full permission to be able to spend time doing the things that give me joy. You know, for example, I'm a competitive golfer like Jim had mentioned or you guys mentioned earlier in the show. But it's pretty hard to take that time. But I found that by taking that time to do the things that I love, and for whatever that might be for anybody else listening, whether it's taking fishing, spending time with your kids, going on that trip, you know, taking time in nature, pursuing that hobby or that passion. I used to think that taking time away from my practice or my business would-- and to do those things would actually affect the business negatively, but it's actually been the most positive influence on our business and my overall enjoyment of what we're doing than anything I've ever done. So, take that time for the things that you love.
Tyson: I think you're so right. And I'm jealous that you're a scratch golfer. It’s pretty awesome. So, let me let me ask you a little follow up before I get to my tip. So, like, did you just grow up really young like playing golf or is it something you picked up over time? Like, how did you get so good at golf?
Dave: I was actually an ice hockey player. I'm from Vancouver, Canada, originally, so. And then, I moved to California when I was 11. There wasn’t an ice hockey rink anywhere nearby. And so, you know, it's like, you know, you’ve got to stick and a puck. And so, I'm picking up a stick and now it's a ball so, you know, maybe I have a little bit of natural talent in that regard but also just, you know, general passion for the game. You know, played all through high school and college and just love being out there on the turf, and being in nature, and playing the game at the highest level. So, certainly, a lot of vacation, too.
Tyson: I like it. I like it.
All right. So, my tip of the week is it's-- I usually give like a website or a book [inaudible 00:29:31]. Mine is about, you know, we're opening back up. Things are starting to open back up. You know, mask mandates are being removed. And so, it's just a reminder to reach out to the people that you love, and start getting out to see them again, and have those lunches, have those coffees because those relationships are extremely important and we've not had a chance to really go out and share with people over the last year. So, it's just a nice little reminder.
I don't know if you really need it but to get out and see people. Schedule those meetings. Schedule those lunches. Schedule those coffees. And get out to see people and build those relationships again. It's really, really important.
Dave, thanks so much for coming on. I think it's really interesting what you're doing. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing about it. And, hopefully, if there's an attorney or two listening that that need to use your services, they’ll reach out to you.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the website, if you go to unbundled attorney, there's a podcast there where we interview attorneys that have been doing this for a really long time so you can get a little context around how they deliver these services. We've also got, you know, trainings from Woody Mosten to unbundled attorneys we work with that can walk you through how to implement these services in your practice. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to learn a little bit more about it.
Tyson: You bet.
Jim: Thanks, man.
Tyson: Thanks, Dave. See you, buddy.
Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
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