Join us at the next Guild Mastermind in Minneapolis on April 18th and 19th! Click here for event details.
This week on the show we have Joey Vitale, a trademark attorney (also known as a "brand legitimizer") for online entrepreneurs, emerging thought leaders, and course creators. With his law firm and his courses, Joey helps online business owners call legal dibs on their brand name and signature methods so they never have to worry about losing their brand overnight. Joey has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and has spoken all over the country to help business owners stay safe and thriving.
In today’s episode we’ll talk about building your team, online courses, and making a bigger impact.
Jim is looking into what part of immigration law can he make a course out of, the one thing he can use to get started. Jim encourages you to think about this for your own practice.
Consciously surrounding yourself with positive people, especially during this time.
If you enjoyed the show, we’d appreciate a 5-Star review!
The doors to the Maximum Lawyer Guild community are open! For membership details and all the member benefits head on over here: https://maximumlawyer.com/theguild/
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Run your law firm the right way.
This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.
Let's partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show.
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim hacking.
Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?
Joey: And I'm Joey Vitale [laughter].
Jim: Oh, my God.
Joey: Has anyone ever done that?
Tyson: No, that’s the first. You're the first.
Joey: Nice. Wow.
Tyson: He was ready for that one.
Jim: Like a boss. Like a boss. If I had a mic, I would drop it. I'm great, Tyson. How are you doing?
Tyson: I'm good, man.
Joey, How are you doing?
Joey: I'm good. Man, that was great.
Tyson: That was a good one. That's a whole new way of introducing someone. I like it.
Jim: He rushed to get it in there too, man. Woo.
Tyson: I think you got in right after the, “What's up, Jimmy?”, just barely.
Joey: I know. I could have timed it better. Thanks, Tyson.
Jim: That was perfect.
Tyson: It’s fun. It’s fun.
For those of you that don't know, right now, we've got Joey Vitale of Indie Law on the podcast. We tried to do a live show, again, for the second week in a row. And, for the second week in a row, technology has failed us. We've been ready but technology has prevented us so we're going to just push this out like normal.
Joey. Man, I don't know where to start now that our whole show has changed.
I'm going to go back to Jim. Jim, so what's new, buddy?
Jim: Oh, well, you know, we're all settling into the new normal. We had The Guild launch last week. We are recording this episode on the last day of March 2020. We had a good response. We've actually had some people sign up after the flash sale, so that's interesting too. I think we we've all been happy with the results. I think that we're onboarding all the new members. I think the former members are excited about having some new people in there. There's a lot of great energy.
Tyson: I agree. It's already been fun. It's already been cool. Today's our first presentation. Brendan Ruane’s going to come on. He's going to talk about color theory which is going to be a really freakin’ cool thing to talk about.
Joey, let's check in with you. How you doing, buddy?
Joey: I'm doing great.
Tyson: Real quick though, let's not assume that everybody knows who the hell you are, so tell a little bit [inaudible 00:02:29].
Hey, everybody. I am a lawyer who hates conflict or, at least, that's what I used to tell myself for the first three years that I started my law firm. And so, after feeling like being in the courtroom wasn't a good fit for me, I transitioned to transactional law, business law. Now, all I do is trademarks. I work with a really cool group of online entrepreneurs as clients and students. I have a law firm in addition to an online course about the law that I'm scaling right now.
Jim: Joey, I was thinking about you last night. We were on episode three or four of Tiger King. He has this arch enemy, Carole Baskin, and he started using all of her logos. I don't know if you've seen this yet but there's a whole there's a whole trademark dispute. Actually, a huge dispute that went to court and full litigation. Without giving any spoiler alerts, I think that you might want to check that out, if you haven't already.
Joey: I need to. That's a good idea.
I've been wanting to. My wife thinks that it'll make her more sad than it'll be funny. Hopefully, we can get over that hump quickly and start watching it.
Tyson: I don't know. It's weird. For those of you that have listened to the podcast about the Tiger King, it's different. It's like listening and watching two separate stories. There's overlap but you get so much more detail in the podcast that you don't get in the show. I already knew all of it was coming. I knew like all that sadness. I still had it, but I don't think it was as bad as if I had-- it's like, “oh my gosh,“ if I'd seen it for the first time. It's worse than what you all think, than the show shows. It's actually really bad - the things that they did. I'm actually surprised they didn't show more. [inaudible 00:04:20].
Jim: All right. Well, let's get to it.
Joey, we wanted to get you on. You always have a positive outlook on things. I was thinking back earlier to a lunch that the three of us had, when we first started getting Maximum Lawyer off the ground and when you were sort of getting Indie Law off the ground. You've been on the show before but talk to people a little bit about your journey into trademark only. And then, sort of what your current mindset is in these strange times we find ourselves.
Joey: Yeah, sure.
Like I alluded to earlier, I quickly learned that the courtroom wasn't the right fit for my personality. My dad actually bribed me to go to law school with a car. That's why I even went to law school. And then, I quickly realized, “Oh, this might not be a great fit for me” and then learned that there was this avenue to go down working with entrepreneurs.
And so, I started my business-facing law firm as like a kitchen sink lawyer. My idea was, I would do anything for any business owners that needed it. After about a year and a half of that, I learned that, out of all of the legal things that could go wrong, that were going wrong with my clients, trademarks were the one thing that were consistently blindsiding them. And so, we realized that there was an area of exposure there that we could double down on, raise awareness of.
And then, about a year ago, I was at a conference, speaking with a group of other types of experts that help business owners and one of them was like, “Joey, this is great. People need this. Where's your online course?” because everybody has online courses. And I was like, “Oh, interesting.” At that point, I bought someone's program to teach me how to do courses which has been amazing. The course that I have now has been about a year and a half journey to slowly making improvements and tweaking over time.
Tyson: Joey, I remember you and I having a conversation about like I don't know what the hell you do. I think you do an amazing job right now and since we had that conversation. It has nothing to do with me, but I want you to talk about the things you're doing now, just talk about what you do, that is so much better than what you were doing before.
Joey: One of the things that I've learned, in general, is that the more that you niche down what you do, in the area of business law, the more everybody's eyes start glazing over just because it's an area of the law that people might need. And so, when I started changing my message from “I'm a trademark lawyer” to “I'm a lawyer who helps you call dibs on your brand.” People are like, ”Oh, that's what I want. How do I do that?” And so, if I can speak more in the language of what my people are actually wanting, like what's the result, then at least the business owners that can become clients and students of mine better understand what I do when it's that elevator conversation.
Jim: Joey, talk to us about your students. What does that mean that you have students and how do they interact with you?
Joey: I know that we're going to get into the course a bit more. One of the first things I realized, when I decided to build a course, was that, at the time, all I had was my law firm as a business entity. If I were to create a course and just run it out of that law firm, all of the people who bought that course would be clients. And so, we built an entire separate business entity, have all this new set of books. And so, I have to be very clear that the people who join the program are not clients. I say students just to further distinguish them from customers of the law firm.
Tyson: It's a really clever idea. Did you encounter any issues with that? Is that why you decided to do that or were you just thinking ahead to make sure that you didn't get sued?
Joey: It was a combination of some things. I talked to some mentors that are really risk averse and said, “If you want to try and avoid any complaints in the future, here's what you could do.” I talked to some kind of cowboys in the industry who said, “You can do it this way. It'll be fine.”
The nice thing now is that I've learned that trademarks are just a part of people wanting to build and protect their brand. And so, now, I can have other types of courses in that other business that aren't legal at all.
Now, I have a naming masterclass for people who maybe they tried to trademark, it doesn't work, and they’ve come up with a new name. Naming stinks, like having to name-- I don't know the story behind Max Law but that might have been a hard thing to figure out if you guys could even use or what would you use if it wasn't available.
And so, now, it's a fun thing of, “Okay. What are other obstacles and struggles people are having and how can we, as a team, help them?”
Tyson: We had a brainstorming session and it just popped into Jim's head. Jim's like, “Maximum Lawyer.” He was pretty much like that.
Joey: Well, that’s awesome.
Tyson: It was after like-- I don't know. It was a pretty long discussion though. We had a bunch of stupid names. I don't remember any of them but there are like dumb names. I think Jim was like, “Maximum Lawyer”. We’re like, “Oh, let’s put that on board. That sounds pretty good.”
Joey: That’s great.
Tyson: If I remember correctly, Jim, it was like a three- or four-hour conversation.
Jim: Yep. It included a lunch, too, because we came back from lunch and that's when we came up with it. That was back in the time when I was trying to be Maximum Jim which I still think of as my alter ego, Maximum Jim--
Joey: [laughs] I love that.
Jim: --as opposed to Minimum Jim.
Joey: Do people know that?
Jim: I don't know.
Joey: We should start calling you Maximum Jim [laughter].
Jim: Joey, I know for a fact that you have spent a lot of energy and a lot of hours studying online courses, studying the people that you now respect. Talk to us a little bit about who are your guru’s, who are the people that you really feel like have led you down the path. I know James Wedmore is one. Talk about James. And then, maybe, talk about some of the others.
Joey: I really like and appreciate this dude named James Wedmore.
I'm glad to be talking with the Maximum Lawyer Community about this because I know that those of you who follow and listen can understand this. A lot of us are wired differently than we think of a lot of other lawyers out there. For us, it's not just about the corner office or bringing home as much money as possible. There is some deeper impact that we all want to make.
The thing that made me even consider courses, to the extent that I did, was because I wanted to make a bigger impact. I knew that there were people who couldn't afford working with me one-to-one that I still wanted to reach. This wasn't the intention but, now that we're in this pandemic, we're having a lot of leads say, “I was going to work with you one-to-one but where's the course, so I can get started?” We're now making that course available to all of our clients so that, if their budget is tight, they can still try and do some trademark work on their own right now. Having that as just something else to offer to people has been super fulfilling and rewarding for me and also the team that I'm building.
And so, the reason why I really connected with this guy named James Wedmore was because he's a guy who's not a douchebag which, already, you guys know like that's kind of a rare bunch. He would always say things that sounded different than what I was hearing other people say but, when I really thought through what he was talking about, it made sense. We know this one like “work smarter and not harder” or “so many of the results come from mindset work and not the hustle and grind.” Specifically in the course space, things like “the more often you launch, the less you're probably going to sell,” or “you should try and sell a course before you even have it made.”
The other thing that I really love about him, as a coach, is he has those kinds of -isms that he follows but, when you're in a one-on-one or group call with him, he doesn't tell you what to do. His course is called Business by Design. His idea is that you get to design how you want to build this business. There's no one right way to do it I'm just here to help coach you and remind you that you’re Maximum Jim along the way.
Tyson: It's funny. Two things you said, really interesting to me. One is like it is all mindset, that you start with mindset, and then everything else falls into place. That’s how it is. The other thing is the whole selling the course and then building after-the-fact is so terrifying for me to think about, like I want to prepare for everything.
That magician - what’s his name, Jim? The Dan Kennedy magician guy. What's his name?
Jim: Dave Dee.
Tyson: Dave Dee. I always wanted to call him Dave Freeze but that's a completely different person. Dave Dee, he had his long presentation. It was a really impressive presentation which, side note, if you were taking pictures of his slides, during, he would come over and yell at you. It was the funniest thing but--
Joey: That’s awesome.
Tyson: --he [inaudible 00:13:10] this long, awesome presentation about how you should sell this course. And then, basically, if it flops, if you can't pull it off, just refund all the money. It was the craziest thing.
Anyways, let me shift gears a little bit.
Because you talked about “we” a lot and you mentioned the team that you're building. For someone working with a remote team, because like that's what you do. You don't have this brick and mortar shop with a bunch of people in it. Let's talk about how you built that team.
Joey: When I started my firm, all I could afford was to pay somebody about $4 an hour for about five hours a month. And so, I found a VA in the Philippines that I could use. For at least like a year, he was like my guy. He slowly did more and more work. So thankful that I read Power of a System by John Fisher, before I did any of that, because instead of me just telling him to do stuff, I would already start documenting stuff for him to take, refine, me to check all of that good stuff. And then, I started bringing on some people who proclaimed themselves as virtual assistants here in the US. That's kind of been like my sweet spot in terms of building a team. I don't have any employees right now. It's all still contractors which, hopefully, will transition to employees by the end of the year.
Everything about Max Law, especially talking about books like Traction had been helpful in getting my team on board with the fact that we have to set our vision and our values. If somebody is in alignment with what our values are, and they can follow instructions, then they should be a good member of the team. If not, then it was on us for hiring them for a wrong seat.
And so, one of the biggest mistakes though that I've made in terms of team building is I got to a point where I got a little cocky with my money and I was like, “I'll just throw money at these problems” that the business is having. It can be very easy right now, I think, to just pay someone a lot more than you would pay an employee to do something like Facebook ads, or to take a deep dive into your CRM and do that kind of stuff. That stuff is helpful, but I've learned that you end up depending on those outside sources and it's a quick way to have your expenses just really increase like crazy. And so, we had some uncomfortable conversations about letting go of those relationships and having my team kind of learn from the bottom up.
Another tip that I'm talking with lawyers about right now is, if you have a VA, you can pay them to buy a course on something, take notes on it, and then just kind of run with it. We're doing that right now with our Facebook ads. We have a $6-VA, took a course. Now, they're running all of our ads.
Jim: Joey, talk to us about the rhythm of working with your VAs. How do you check in? How do you supervise them? That kind of stuff.
Joey: Things are in transition right now. I'm the visionary, kind of, at the top of the accountability chart. And then, I've got two different team leads that are here in the US with me. And then, I've got two other people who are in Chicago, but still virtual, that do kind of some stuff underneath the lead space. And then, I have a growing number of VAs. I think, right now, it's at around three or four. I have one VA, who's our lead VA. And so, what we're transitioning right now is to him being the bottleneck, so to speak, of everybody in the US and what they need sending stuff to him. And then, he will delegate it out to others and then supervise their work for us.
Tyson: How did you learn all this, Joey? How did you learn on this?
Joey: I just got creative and was like, “Let's try this.”
Tyson: It's sort of like, I guess, a kind of like a hub-and-spoke model, a little bit, where you've got like these little hubs, like they're shooting out all these assignments.
Joey: I think the reason why we did it was because I was feeling and hearing some pain points from my US team about like not knowing who to send things to or getting message from one of the VAs when it wasn't really their thing. Right now, I'm trying to take that same idea of “I need to get stuff off of my plate” so I can focus on what I need to focus to my US-based team and say, “It's great that you guys are willing to lend a helping hand whenever there's a problem but, if you're not spending your time in your role, you're out of integrity with what you're supposed to be doing here.” Hopefully, it helps.
Jim: I remember one day when my office manager at the time, who still runs our firm, I remember she was onboarding a new person and I heard her say, “We all sort of do everything around here” and like my ears almost started bleeding from the inside out. I almost had a seizure. I was so rattled by that. I really said, “Oh my gosh, she's right. She's right. We're all running around, just trying to do the best we can and not having structure to who does what and keeping people in their roles.” Migrating to that kind of a scenario where everybody has clearly-defined roles with an accountability chart and things like that has really made a big difference for us.
Joey: Yeah, it's been so helpful. I think that it's interesting to watch my team go through the same struggles that I had and continue to have, as the business owner, where it's like, “What don't I want to let go of?” It's hard to really admit to yourself all the things that you don't need to be doing anymore. I realized just how much my team was also holding on to stuff just because it was uncomfortable for them to let it go.
Tyson: Joey, before the call, we were having a conversation and Jim mentioned something about how you're usually ahead of the curve when it comes to technology and what's going on in the world. One of the things he wanted to talk about, I think this is a good one, is what should people be learning about right now? Because this is a really weird time, we don't know what's going to happen in six months. What do you see? Where shall we be headed?
Joey: Oh, man. I don't have any answers there, but I'll say this, I know that running a law firm is hard. I also know that it's a relatively safe business model where your marketing doesn't have to be totally A-plus for conversions to happen. One of the things that I've learned is, some of my students - the people who are also kind of in my space, they have chosen a really hard business model to sell and because it's so hard, if they are successful, their marketing has to work.
I know, sometimes, you hear people say like, “Look out in the legal industry for some marketing tips.” I would actually say, like, “Look to hard business models like wedding industry, photography, online courses - even if they're not necessarily like swimming in money, if they're making money with those types of businesses that usually aren't, then they're probably doing something right.”
Jim: I think that's really interesting because I do think a lot of lawyers-- you're right, there's sort of a built-in auto credibility because we're lawyers that we don't have to work as hard at marketing. I also think and I've noticed this with our own firm, that we get seduced by the easy cases, that we're not pushing ourselves as if every single case mattered. I think now, given this new reality that we're in, I've noticed that I'm much more happy when a singular case comes in and I think everyone's going to be paying more attention to this. So, I think your advice to go look at outside industries where it is hyper competitive, even more so than like personal injury in New York City that that's a great idea, Joey.
Joey: If you guys want to take a look at something that works on Instagram, for example, but it's going to be hard to create, my buddy, his name is Chris Do. He owns this huge branding agency called The Futur. They do like Nike’s branding. They also have a course to help graphic designers build their businesses. If you check either The Futur or Chris Do on Instagram, you'll see he's created these carousel graphics. A carousel, on Instagram, is like, I think, up to 10 different graphics that you can swipe through. He's made them so they all artistically like, naturally, you want to swipe. It could be something like 10 tips for color psychology. And, as you read, you learn a bunch of different stuff. It actually pulls you in more as you go. It takes a lot of time to craft that well but, those types of more meaningful engagements, it's really cool to see.
Tyson: You can't use Chris Do now as an example. You're working with creatives all the time. I feel like you're really tapped into that world. Who else is doing something really cool that people should be checking out?
Joey: Tyson's right. I work a lot with creatives. Over the past year though, that has transitioned from like the more traditional artist-maker-crafter person to like creative thought leaders. I'll use Instagram just because I love the visual-ness of the program. But if you go to - I think it's Hey Jen Casey or Jen Casey. She does these amazing posts where it's all about thought reversal. A lot of her posts, you'll see just like a line going through, and it's just like “Struggling entrepreneurs will respond to a situation this way. Thriving entrepreneurs respond to it this way.” And so, the whole point of her marketing is how it's just, over time, you can identify with the positive version of her post. Because the real goldmine of an email, or a post, or any type of content is, “How can I make someone's mind change just a little bit after paying attention to this?”
Tyson: Love that.
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Jim: We're back on The Maximum Lawyer Podcast with our good friend Joey Vitale. One of our first guests on The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. Joey's riffin’, and [inaudible 00:24:13], and frontin’, and maxin’ and showing us all of his best moves.
Joey, talk to us a little bit about the lawyer who's a little nervous, a little reluctant, a little hesitant to sort of go out on that limb, to sort of take that stretch to try to do something new. Just talk for a minute or two about how do you make that leap.
Joey: I've been there. My biggest recommendation is to literally hit the live button. That live button on Facebook can become a hesitant person's best friend because you quickly realize that everybody out there is supporting you.
I remember one of the first times I went live in my group, bringing up John Fisher again. He hopped in right away. He was like, “Let's get going, buddy.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, John Fisher’s in the group.”
If you guys are in The Maximum Lawyer Family you know how all you have to do is share something into any of the Max Law group spaces. I think there's a lot of pressure right now not to just kind of be perfect but, “If I do this thing, then I have to download it, and edit it, and make it perfect. To put my logo everywhere. And then re-upload it. And share it a bunch of times.” There's just something really refreshing, especially from being a lawyer, if you just hit the live button and start talking.
Tyson: Joey, you and I had a little chat yesterday, via messenger. You mentioned the importance of the offer. Do you want to talk about that briefly?
Joey: More and more lawyers, especially right now, are coming to me asking me about how they can start creating a course. I think part of it is that now is the time to be as virtual as you can be and digital part of it is that it's turned out to be really great for the firm to have kind of like a cousin course program that interested leads could take. One of the hardest things about building a course and making it sell for you is not actually making the course, it's presenting it to people. A lot of people, if they're really honest with themselves, they keep fine tuning and tweaking this course that they're building and re-doing the outline because the real uncomfortable part is telling people that it exists, and asking them if they want to buy it, and being told no 9 times out of 10, because the reality is that if you get told 9 times out of 10, you have one of the best conversion metrics out there for an online course creator. And so, getting used to being told no - a lot is part of the game.
Jim: I remember the first time that I signed up a client through YouTube, that they had found me on YouTube and they liked my videos. That's sort of what sealed the deal. I think that the mindset shouldn't be about the nine no’s. It should be about the one yes because if you get one yes, that means you can get two yes’s. And that means you can get four yes’s. And that means you can get 16 yes’s. I can't do much math beyond that. I think that that's really the mindset, is that if you've done it once, then you have to figure out how to replicate it, and iterate it to make it better. And then, it becomes like that spinning wheel where you get that momentum. I think that that is the right approach.
You're right, Joey, so many of us get hung up on, “Oh, well--” you know, even when we were trying when we were even when we were getting ready to launch The Guild, last Friday, I had one last push to, “Oh, I don't think we're entirely ready. Let's wait till Monday” and Tyson said, “No way. We're going.” So, we went. And so, of course, I'm glad that we did.
Joey: It's amazing to see how many people are doing that right now. Good job, you guys.
Tyson: Thanks, dude. Appreciate that.
All right, we have to wrap things up.
I want to remind everyone. Go to the Facebook group. There's a lot of great activity there.
I might as well go ahead and pitch The Guild. If you want a little more high-level stuff, go to The Guild. We're sharing more high-level stuff in The Guild. A lot of great learning. A lot of great people like Joey Vitale in that group. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?
Jim: My hack of the week is a hack for myself. My hack for myself is “What is one little aspect of immigration law that we could make a course out of?” It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be finished. It doesn't have to be fool-proof. “What's one little thing that I could turn into a course or even helpful pamphlets and things that would allow me to get started?” And so, maybe think about that for your own practice and think about people like Joey who are doing these things and are showing us the way that these things are possible.
Tyson: I love that. You just gave me an idea. We could put clients through these courses. I'm not the first one to think about this, but we could put clients through these basic training modules on how to be a good client to make their case better. There are so many useful ways of using those, so I think that's great.
Joey, what is your tip or hack of the week?
Joey: I guess my tip/hack right now is just to keep surrounding yourself with people who are reacting positively to the situation right now. It's crazy how talking with one person who's really freaking out and stressful and is just, “This is the way it is. Life sucks right now,” tanks my day. And so, just to be particularly mindful right now about who it is that you're letting their language suck into your reality.
Tyson: I love that. It's so right.
Luckily, I've got a lot of great people that that I'm around and that's just part of Maximum Lawyer. It’s fantastic.
All right. So, my tip is something that you all are going to see Jim and I use very, very soon. Jim can't do it today at 4:00 like I was hoping. We're going to start using Vimeo Premium for pushing and for basically simulcasting to multiple places at one time. From everything that I've seen - I spent most of my weekend playing around with it, it's freakin’ cool. You all may actually see it at four o'clock today because Becca and I are going to test it out. Jim can't because he's important. He's a big baller. We're going to test it out. It's going to be pretty cool.
Joey, thanks for coming on, man. I really, really appreciate it.
Joey: My pleasure. Thanks to you, guys.
Jim: Thanks, Joey.
Tyson: See ya.
Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.
Have a great week and catch you next time.
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