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In today’s episode, Jim and Tyson chat with criminal and DUI defense attorney, Adam Rossen! They dive into the journey of building an incredible law firm. If you’re interested in learning more about incremental growth, strategic marketing, and the importance of systems, check out this week’s episode.
Adam Rossen is the founder and CEO of the Rossen Law Firm. He was born and raised in South Florida and grew up knowing that he wanted to become either a doctor or lawyer because he wanted to be someone who helps people. He quickly realized that law would be the path for him and became a prosecutor in Broward County after graduating from the University of Miami School of Law.
Adam left the prosecutor’s office in 2008 because he wanted to help people in a deeper, more meaningful way as well as satisfy a deep desire to start his own business. Since then, Adam has grown his firm to a 13 person powerhouse team while pursuing its mission to "Help Good People When Bad Things Happen so They Can Achieve Their Best Future."
9:19 six criminal defense attorneys
13:06 15 interns over Zoom
16:53 cash can be a problem
19:21 market to the type of client you want
24:10 you don’t have a bookkeeper
Jim’s Hack: Make yourself binge-worthy. Create content on a regular basis, so your market can consume as much from you as they can.
Adam’s Tip: Take action! Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare. - Japanese proverb. You need the vision and to take action. Don’t get caught up in the daydream alone.
Tyson’s Tip: Check out the Speechify app. It’s an easy-to-use app that reads articles, docs, emails, etc., to you.
Watch the podcast here.
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Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?
Jim: Tyson, I'm so excited. My daughter has been insisting that I get on TikTok for quite some time. We had a video that went viral on Saturday. We shot it in my front yard. It took me literally seven minutes. And it has over 200,000 views. And we've gone from 640 followers to 3000 followers. And so, she's really excited because I told her, for every thousand followers, I'd give her a hundred bucks. So, I'm giving her $300 this week. She's very excited.
Tyson: Pretty awesome.
So, is it too late for TikTok-- for me to jump into TikTok? I just [inaudible 00:02:51].
Jim: I started a month ago.
Tyson: Nice. Nice. I mean, I understand that the algorithm’s pretty awesome, apparently, compared to Facebook and the other one. So, it's just another platform, I guess, I need to maybe get on. Like I'm really hesitant because what's the one that's like audio only?
Jim: Yeah, that's Clubhouse or something.
Tyson: Clubhouse. I feel like it's already kind of burned out. So, like I just-- I'm hesitant to jump into a new social media channel.
But, anyways, do you want to introduce our guest?
So, our guest today is Adam Rossen. Like he said, at the top of the show, he's a criminal defense and DUI lawyer, very successful, down in Florida, and has a growing firm. So, I was really excited. We scheduled this call out a couple of months and I'm really glad Adam’s on the show.
So, Adam, thank you.
Adam: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
Tyson: I love your tagline, “When bad things happen to good people.” You know, it really is interesting because the people that don't do criminal defense, they don't quite understand. Like sometimes it's just a stupid mistake that someone's made. They're a good person, but they made a stupid mistake.
But let's get to you though, tell us a little bit about your journey.
Adam: Yeah. So, I'm born and raised in South Florida. So, been here pretty much all my life. And, growing up, I didn't know if I wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. I kind of went back and forth. And all it took was one-- a half of a semester of organic chemistry, at UF, for me to say, “You know what? This isn't for me.”
So, I switched majors to criminology. It was pretty easy. I enjoyed it so that I decided to add psychology as well because the two really went well together and everything that I enjoyed. And went to law school down in Miami. And started off as a prosecutor for about two years and just decided to leave and start my own firm.
My old partner and I, we were roommates. Being a 25 ‑ 26‑year‑old prosecutor in Fort Lauderdale was kind of like Grey's Anatomy in a way but for law, like we were just partying and hanging out. And we had a really cool group of maybe about 20 young prosecutors and public defenders that became instant friends. It was like a big frat house.
And then, we left to start our own firm. And we were partners from 2008 to 2015. And he wanted to split. And when he split, that’s kind of when I was reinvigorated into an, “All right. It's all on me. I need to figure this stuff out” because we were there for seven years together and we didn't even have a legal assistant or a secretary. It was just the two of us. I was pretty much my own secretary and I was his secretary.
And about 2015 or so is when we started just really, you know, growing. And it's been fantastic. We've had some great growth over the last few years.
Jim: What spurred that growth? What changed after he left?
Adam: Well, it was-- I just went all in.
So, I was also a high school basketball coach, at the time that we were together. I was a pretty good player myself. And I got into it in law school and I loved coaching basketball. And two of my former players ended up working for me. So--
But once he kind of made that decision, I was like, “Alright. Well, my life raft, my buddy [inaudible 00:05:35] hold my hand, we're in this together is gone. It's all on me.” I kind of felt like my back was against the wall. And I'm like, “I just-- I can't coach anymore. I have to go all in with this.” So, I just started consuming content. You know, anything I could find online about how to, you know, market, grow, and build a law firm.
Tyson: And I think Jim-- both of us can relate to a partnership splitting up. I know that feeling that you're talking about, that reinvigoration of like, “Oh, I've got this energy, I could restart almost, and almost hit a restart button.” So, take us back to that moment, whenever that happened - that time for when that happened and really what it was like for you.
Adam: Yeah. It was-- I want to say like January 5 or 6 of maybe 2015. And he just told me like, “Look, you know-- and we were doing criminal and immigration at the time. And my old partner, he learned it from scratch. So, when we started in ’08, we just had nothing better to do. We had no clients, so he learned it.
We’d go-- Jim, we would hang out at Krome, down in Miami, and at 333 South Miami, and we would just go into courtrooms and just sit and watch and take notes. And then, you know, he went to a bunch of ALA conferences and learned it. And, you know, his niche was really the removal, the deportation defense. But it was just sitting there going, “Okay. You know, Adam, it's all on you now.”
And I remember distinctly, it was a Saturday morning sitting in, you know, my girlfriend now wife’s apartment, down in Miami, going, “All right. I've got to figure this-- all those things out.” You know, it was 2015. And I'm like, “I'm an 8.1. How do I get to a 10.0?” And I remember distinctly being there, that Saturday morning, trying to figure all this stuff out and go through, you know, the corporation and just, you know, build a corporation and do all like the stuff over again.
And, you know, we always joke about that now just like sitting on her white couch, on a Saturday morning, down in Miami, just going through all that stuff and kind of coming up with my own, you know, business plan. It was really exciting. I think I've learned that I really like to build. So, whether it was being a basketball coach, you know, because I won a state championship. And when I won the state championship, I was actually kind of sad. It was weird. You know, I accomplished my goal. And then, I was like, “Okay. Well, what's next?” You know? And that it was really such a weird feeling that came over me that day, like, “Wow! We're celebrating.” So, I think I just really like to build things, you know? I don't know. I'm still kind of going through my own like personal, you know, path of self‑discovery, so.
Jim: That's awesome.
So, you said that you were the firm’s secretary for both you and your partner. And, obviously, now, you've built a much bigger firm. Talk to everyone just so they know about the size of your firm and the scope of it. And then, tell everyone about how you sort of started building. I'd be really interested in those first couple hires, you know, what you focused on.
So, right now, we have-- our sixth lawyer is joining us in a few weeks. So, we're very excited for that. So, we're going to have six criminal defense attorneys. And we're going to be at about 15 people right now. So, it's pretty cool. Especially for criminal law, it's usually just as, you know, solo lawyer and a legal assistant.
But going back, the way I did it was, you know, I really focused 2015 - 2016 on just market, market, marketing. Get clients in. Looking back, I wish I did the systems first. Yeah, and I listen to Tyson all the time talk about that and I'm just like, “I'm so bad at that,” you know, because it doesn't really excite me. The marketing excites me and the building excites me. But, you know, I got to a point where I couldn't handle really anything anymore.
And I distinctly remember having three trials in five weeks. And, when I was a prosecutor, that's nothing. We were in trial every single week. But as a defense attorney, as a private defense attorney, when you have that and you're doing-- and they weren't even that complicated trials when you're doing everything by yourself in a trial and you have to worry about the phone ringing and everything else, it was hard.
So, I took that time and I said, “All right. I need to hire somebody.” So, I hired my first legal assistant who was a former-- not a basketball player of ours, but he was our team manager, about 10 years before, so we had a great connection. And he was our-- you know, he became the first employee of the firm, as a legal assistant. And I slowly--
You know, he knew nothing about law. So, the first month, I taught him seals and expungement. The second month, I taught him something else. The third month, it was how to schedule depositions. All the things that-- you know, I was scheduling depositions and doing the paperwork at eight-- nine o'clock at night. So, you know, I kind of unlocked him every month.
And then, after that, I said, you know, before I hire an attorney, I really want to make sure the marketing is good, so I hired a part‑time marketing assistant. And she helped a lot. And we did a lot of strategic thinking and a lot of, you know, taking action from that.
And about six months later, it was like, “All right. I'm drowning. It's time.” And one of my really good friends who also I was his basketball coach as well, you know, we had talked for a long time. He was a public defender. And then, he went to do some civil work and wanted to leave and get back into criminal. So, we talked, we set it up, and he came on board. I believe it was April of 2017 or 2018.
And I remember, the third-- and I think it was Wednesday morning of that first week. I woke up at 3:00 a.m. sweating. And I go, “I just bought a house that I can barely afford. And now a huge chunk’s going to go to him. What did I do?” Right? And later that afternoon, we had a $25,000‑case paid in full. And I was like, “Okay, we're good. You know, all is good. It's going to be fine.”
And of course, now, I look back on that and if I get people, I'm like, “Look, it's not a marriage. You're not in this forever when you hire somebody. And you divide it by 26. You know, right-- if you're on a two‑-week-- every two week pay period. So, you don't have to look at that big chunk as all up front. And I learned very quickly. That freed me up to go out and do more marketing, and do more signups, and do more of the things that I was really good at.
And then, from there, it was just kind of incremental growth. Right before the pandemic, we were at two lawyers, one full‑time marketer, and three staff. So, we were six people. And, at that point, I still remember 2020 being pretty scary. You know, especially the first two months. We were probably averaging about 15 clients a month. And then, April 2020, we have three. And May 2020, I think, we had seven.
But what we did is we converted our two new legal assistants to marketing assistants and we had them just write and do backlinks. And we took on about 15 interns, over Zoom, that summer and we gave them writing assignments. And we got about 50,000 words of content that we put on our site that summer. And that, with a few other things, just started kind of, you know-- and people in South Florida wanting to rage and party kind of catapulted us.
And, by-- you know, we hired our third lawyer really January of last year, of 2021. And in the last 15 months, we've gone from two lawyers to six. So, it's kind of taken off. And our biggest struggle, the last 12 months, has been the systems, the management, you know, all those things that-- when I told Jim the bullshit, as I said, that he called me out on that, our Guild Day, last year. So that's just kind of what happened. And it's been really hard, but it's been amazing.
Tyson: So, that's a good segue because what I wanted to ask you about is, during this growth phase, what were some of the biggest hurdles that you faced? And you just kind of mentioned one. But what are some of the other ones?
Adam: Yeah. Communication. You know, we started EOS. And our EOS coach just kind of wrote out, you know, when there's two people, it's one‑to‑one. And then, there's three, and you get that little triangle of communication. And then, four. And then five. And it just exponentially grows the potential of miscommunication.
So, communication and systems. You know, right now, we still-- one of our big things is-- I call it you know, we're going to-- like Lord of the Rings, One Ring to rule them all. We're going to have one system to rule them all. Not legal assistant A does it her way, and D does it their way, and C takes a combination but found this shortcut. So, we're really trying to just have one system for everything that we do. And that's definitely been a challenge. But, you know, it's exciting, because the alternative is that I would, you know, be back where I was doing everything which I don't want to do anymore. I want to be here talking to you guys.
Jim: I love, love, love the creation of 50,000 words with Zoom interns. I mean, that's massive action. That's I'm not going to sit on my pity pot and feel sorry for myself because of this god‑damned COVID. This is taking action.
And, you know, you said, early on, that, you know, you mistakenly went to marketing first and foremost because that's what you love. I don't think that was a mistake at all. I think that probably saved you and now it's fueling this growth that you're seeing. It’s that you doubled down on the market. You didn't just back off and say, “Oh, woe is me. No one's committing any crimes. Our firm is screwed.” You went and said, “There's people out there still committing crimes or being accused of crimes. We're going to go find them and let them find us.”
Yeah. And what I've learned just from, you know, being I'm turning 41 next week, right? So, I've been around for a little bit. But I say when other people zig, you zag, you know, and the opposite. So, everybody put their head in this and everybody in South Florida, whether it was criminal or other types of law were, you know, cutting pay, laying people off.
I said, you know, we had three of our six employees hadn't even been with us 90 days. And I said, “No way. What kind of leadership is that? And we'll just, you know, switch people's position. And even though they didn't sign up to be content writers, right, for two or three months, they can do that.
And then, we just had a flood of interns come in and, you know, people that lost in‑person internships. And I kind of thought-- I didn't originally think of it as we're going to get all this content boom. I originally thought of it as it's kind of our moral duty to provide a great experience for people who lost a great experience. And then, within a week or two, you know, I started thinking about it and I go, “Oh, I can leverage them too. Let's go.” So, we did. Yeah. It was a lot of fun.
Tyson: So, as anyone that's done criminal defense knows, cash can be a problem, right? It can be a massive problem. And it sounds like you've done a really good job managing cash. So, I just wonder what advice you might be able to give people that are running a criminal defense firm to manage their cash because there's two things that need cash, one-- or the major thing is growth, right? That eats a lot of cash. In criminal defense, it can be really tough because it can be inconsistent when it comes to cash flow. So, what advice do you have for criminal defense lawyers when it comes to managing their cash flow?
Adam: Well, I've always been pretty conservative with just saving cash. So, even-- you know, during COVID, I'll go back to that, I wasn't freaking out because I had a lot of money saved in the business. And I said to myself, I'm like, “Okay. If I make a little less, I know what I need to live. It's fine. It's not really about me. It's about the firm, you know, and continuing to build and grow.”
So, number one, I would just say don't spend all the money that you come in. You know, most people, right, as their-- I would like to say, as their top line increases, their bottom line increases, too. You know, that's not the right way to do it.
I think a lot of it, though, has to do with the marketing to a specific client. So, we've found that we do not do well with the typical jailhouse client. I'd say less than 5%-- easily less than 5% of our clients are currently in jail. That's why we have our motto, “When bad things happen to good people.” Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I screw it up. Yeah, when bad things happen to good people, right? So, you know.
And it's about attracting and repelling. You know, just classic direct response marketing or just marketing, in general. So, we've put some barriers up recently to the client that, we've just found, we don't do well with, to really protect our time. And that's really helped. So, like violations of probation, we have a consultation fee because they're in custody and all they want to do is get out. And it's not about what the total fee is. It's about, “Well, how much can I pay now?” And then, we're chasing money.
On the flip side, though, I am personally a big believer in if you come to me and you say, “I want you guys. I need you guys. Can you work out a payment plan?” I will do it. And I'll try to make it as reasonable as I can for those type of clients.
But the clients that come in and say, “Well, you know, so and so we'll do it for $300 cheaper or a thousand dollars cheaper. You know, we're not a commodity. So, we try-- you know, that doesn't work with us.
So, really, I think it starts with the marketing. You know, you really have to market to the type of client that you want. And it can be hard with criminal defense because you can say anybody, you know. But not really. We really love our first time and second time people. We love clients that, you know, have substance abuse or mental health issues. We love our nurses and our teachers, you know, just blue‑collar workers though that have a lot to lose. And even though they're not wealthy, they will pay 2500 more to have us, than the other person they met with, because they care that much about their teaching certificate, or their nursing license, or whatever it is.
So, I think those things have really been a key. I mean, we're not perfect. You know, we still-- I think one of my next hires might need to be a full‑time like billing department person at some point, you know. I know, you know, Umansky’s a lot bigger than me and he has somebody on staff that does that, you know, billing/accounting, so. But, yeah, you know, that's some of the advice I'd give is really, it all starts with attracting who you want and repelling who you don't.
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Jim: You're listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. Our guest today is Adam Rossen. He's a successful criminal defense and DUI attorney, down in South Florida.
Adam, you've raised some really great marketing concepts on today's show. I'm just wondering, where did you get your background in marketing and what have you studied or learned over time?
Adam: Yeah. So, in 2015, I just kind of consumed everything - everything I could. I forget when you guys started. But whenever you guys started, I found your podcast. I found a lot of the Ben Glass stuff. And I'm still a member in Ben’s group. And, I know, Jim, I think you were in it years ago. So, a lot of it was from him. A lot of it just other people. You know, I did-- that led me to some Dan Kennedy stuff. And, you know, just really, I was just-- in 2015 and 2016, I feel like I consumed so much marketing content but didn't really act on it until I could get that part‑time marketing person.
And, now, I'm, you know, it's a lot more about, “Okay, you know, stop consuming and start acting.” But, really, that first year or two was just consume anything I can get my hands on and just car rides, you know, going back and forth from court, listening to everything. Didn't have kids, you know, then, so it was easy to at night. And my wife, you know, then girlfriend, didn't live with me. She lived in Miami. So, she was in law school herself. So, it was just I had a ton of time.
Tyson: All right. Adam, I have not asked this question in several months. So, I've reserved it for you. What is that thing, that one thing, that you struggle with the most when it comes to running your firm?
Adam: I struggle with a lot. I'd say well, now, we're running EOS and my biggest struggle is getting me out of all of the other seats, so I can just be the visionary. That's definitely my biggest struggle. I'm too involved in intake, but I'm really good at it and I like it. I'm too involved in the finance, but I've already committed to letting a lot of that go. I've already committed to letting a lot of the management go to our integrator. And, actually, he's the managing partner now of the firm.
So, one of our one‑year goals-- we just had our annual. One of our one‑year goals for this year is to get me out of every other seat except for, you know-- not intake manager, but I can still do intakes, be an intake attorney, and then visionary. And, hopefully, we're, you know, nine months away from that.
Jim: So, along those lines, you're going to be speaking at MaxLawCon2022. And we all agreed that you have the best title for your talk. And I'm going to just read it for everybody. You're just a highly paid bookkeeper: How I got my ass kicked at the Max Law Guild Day and what I've done about it. Do you want to give everyone a little teaser about what you're going to talk about?
Adam: Yeah, sure. So, we had our Guild Day last October. And Jim, you know, you're our-- whatever you want to call it, leader, moderator, Zen master. And, by the way, we had two grown men bawling in tears. We won't talk about who they were but probably a few more that wanted to. It was like a surreal experience.
But I walked in there and I was just-- you know, we happened to grow at 12 employees and I'm like, ”Okay. I want to get to 20 employees. I need that next level of growth.” And I just kind of came in, you know, like bat out of hell. And then, I was just bitching and complaining about all the other things I have to do like writing checks, and dealing with bookkeeping, and everybody just stopped and piled on me. And I can take it. I mean, you know, I loved it. I was like, okay. You know, everyone was like you’re-- “Dude, you don't have a bookkeeper and you're talking about growing to 20 employees. You don't have an office manager and you're talking about going and 20 employees? Like, what's wrong with-- you're the bookkeeper, you're the office manager, and that's why you can't do all the things you want to do because you're writing the damn check, you know, and you're worried about all these little things.” So, like Adam, “You’ve got to stop.”
And it was great. I mean, I was sitting down. I was like, “Oh. Oh, yeah.” Like-- you know, and the way I look at it is-- but the problem I had was a bookkeeper and an office manager, they're not generating revenue, right? You know, like, we need a new legal assistant. Well, they're helping move cases. A new lawyer will help move cases, maybe bring some in, or whatever. But I was just like-- you know, it was just mindset, right? And I think maybe we had 12 people in our group. And I was counting, I think, 10 of the 12, the issue boiled down to mindset, not tactics or any strategy, or anything else. The problem was all mindset.
And then, so, I told Jim, right, you know-- or Jim, I don't know if you told me or I told you, but we were like, we agreed that the rest of the conference, every time you saw me, you were just going to say, “Did you hire your bookkeeper yet? Did you hire your bookkeeper yet?”, you know. And even, I think, on stage, you called me out. So, I loved it, you know. And a few people from the group have texted me occasionally since then, “Did you hire a bookkeeper? What are you doing?” And then, I went home and, you know, I was immediately like, “All right. I have to start acting.”
So, we have now-- Jim, we have the same bookkeeper. We've hired Lesley. She's amazing. She's fixing all of our problems, at least, related to bookkeeping. And she said, I'm not as bad as you are, so.
Jim: That’s right. You probably couldn't be.
Adam: Right, right. She goes, “You're not as bad as Jim. Jim is worse.” I was like, “Okay. That makes me feel a little better.”
But, yeah, I just-- you know, and I really-- I picked that because I wanted to talk to people wherever you're at in growth or size, whether you want to grow or not, you know, a lot of it is just taking action. And sometimes you need somebody to call you on your bullshit, you know, from a place of love, but it doesn't have to be that nice either. It can be, you know, tough, right? And I actually do-- I think I've always done pretty well with tough, honest coaching. So, I wanted to-- you know, I picked that because I wanted to give that back to people. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that can relate in some form or another.
Tyson: Excellent stuff. I think part of that's probably the coach inside of you, too, so that's really good.
I think it's a good place to end it right there. We're going to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to join us in the big Facebook group, a lot of great activity going on there. If you want a more high‑level conversation, join us in The Guild, go to maxlawguild.com. Remember to get your tickets to MaxLawCon2022, maxlawcon2022.com, June 2 and 3 in St. Charles, Missouri which is right next to St. Louis. And then, if you don't mind, while you're listening to the rest of this episode, give us a five‑star review. We would greatly appreciate it.
Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?
Jim: My hack of the week is to make yourself binge worthy. Make yourself binge worthy. What do I mean by that? Well, with content right now, if you haven't been paying attention, watch what happens when your next Netflix shows ends. It feeds right into the next show. On Spotify, when your playlist ends, they're feeding you more music. They want to keep you on the platform. And the reason for that is they want you to binge the content, whatever it is.
And so, the reason we need to be creating content on a regular basis isn't just for the sake of creating content. It’s so that when someone is hot and bothered or thinking about hiring a criminal defense lawyer, they've gotten into trouble down in South Florida and they're thinking about hiring Adam, they want to consume as much Adam content as they can. And that's going to make them feel better about their decision. And it's definitely the way to go. So, make yourself binge worthy.
Tyson: I love that. And who does it terribly is Hulu. Hulu wants to push on to another show. It's the dumbest, dumbest thing. Netflix has it perfectly done. I agree with that.
Adam, you are up next. What is your tip or hack of the week?
Adam: Yeah. So, I thought about this a lot. And coming back with my theme of just taking action, there's a saying, I forget who said it and I don't want to butcher it either, but it's action without vision is a nightmare. And vision without action is nothing but a daydream. So, you need to have the vision, right, the plan, the strategy, and then you have to have the second component of just to act on it, to start doing things because I think a lot of us or, at least I used to be the one getting just caught up in the daydreams and the planning so much and, you know, having something be perfect.
And you just have to go, just start doing something because that's been one of the biggest keys to our growth is just acting. And a lot of the things that we even did in the beginning of the pandemic did not work, right? Today, I told you about the things that did work, but we did so many other things that didn't work, but we were trying anything and everything we could.
Tyson: That is excellent advice.
My tip of the week is Speechify. It's an app. And I don't know if it works on the desktop or not. I'm using the free version. There's a paid version. But when you're on Safari, whenever I'm on my phone, if there's an article, if I'm driving, I can just hit play. There's a little play button that hovers in Safari, and I just hit play, and it’ll actually read the article to me as I'm driving. It's really cool. So, you can get the paid version. I think it works with apps and everything else. But Speechify, I highly recommend it. It’s easy to use, easy to install, and everything else.
Adam, great episode. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story.
Adam: Thanks for having me. I feel like I finally made the big time, guys. I'm so excited.
Tyson: You made it. You made it.
Adam: I'm here. I'm here. I'll see everybody in St. Charles.
Jim: See you, brother.
Tyson: Very good. Thanks, Adam.
Adam: All right. See you, guys.
Tyson: See you, bud.
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We collect information from you when you register on our site, place an order, subscribe to a newsletter, Use Live Chat, Open a Support Ticket or enter information on our site.
How do we use your information?
We may use the information we collect from you when you register, make a purchase, sign up for our newsletter, respond to a survey or marketing communication, surf the website, or use certain other site features in the following ways: