Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

Tyson Mutrux sits down with immigration attorney Audra Doyle to discuss what happens when the practice area you've built your law firm around starts changing beneath you. From purchasing her first firm to building an unconventional partnership, Audra shares the decisions that shaped her business and why she's now considering another major shift as immigration law becomes increasingly unpredictable.

They explore the financial and personal pressures of running a highly specialized practice, the risks of expanding into new areas, and how Audra plans to use international estate planning to serve her existing clients. The conversation also covers hiring, partnership structures, marketing through TikTok, and what it takes to build a firm that supports the life you actually want to live.

What You'll Learn

• Why niching down can make a law firm both successful and vulnerable.
• What to consider before purchasing an established law firm.
• How to structure a partnership around different practice areas.
• When adding a new practice area makes business sense.
• How to expand your marketing without losing your existing audience.
• Why building a firm around your future lifestyle matters.

Timestamps

• 00:00 - From Music Teacher to Law Firm Owner
• 03:34 - Buying an Established Law Firm
• 11:36 - Building an Unconventional Law Firm Partnership
• 19:05 - Hiring the First Associate and Planning for Growth
• 25:43 - When Immigration Law Becomes Financially Unpredictable
• 34:31 - Deciding Whether to Pivot Into Estate Planning
• 40:15 - Finding an Opportunity in International Estate Planning
• 45:43 - Marketing, Rebranding, and Building a Location-Independent Firm

Connect with Audra

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YouTube

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Full Transcript: 

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:03 Today's guest is Audra Doyle, partner at Drew and Doyle right here in Atlanta. And Audra is in the middle of making a pretty significant change in her firm, or at least some decisions about whether she's going to make some changes. She started her career as a music teacher, which is interesting. We talk about that and eventually went to law school, found immigration law and built a practice around it. But immigration in 2026 has become a very different business. I'm sure many people have been watching the news. It definitely has been new. New case intake for you is down. Clients are more hesitant to file. The cases themselves have become increasingly stressful, and Audra has started asking whether the firm needs another practice area, which is interesting. I'm looking forward to talking about that. So today we're going to talk about what happens when the niche you've built for business around starts changing underneath you. Audra, welcome to the show.

Audra Doyle 00:01:16  Thank you so much. Glad to be here this morning.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:18  So what are people going to learn by listening to this episode today?

Audra Doyle 00:01:23  I hope they're going to learn, you know, from what I struggle with, which is the ability to be adaptable and to be able to change.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:34  I think that's a really good lesson. I can't wait to talk a little bit about that. before we get into the change that you're considering or that you're making right now, I want to go back because, this definitely isn't your first pivot in life, which are things kind of interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:01:49  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:50  You started as a music teacher, which I've mentioned in the intro. then you went to law school and you found immigration. and you definitely seem like you have a passion for immigration.

Audra Doyle 00:02:00  I do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:02  You started your own firm. Okay. How did you go from somewhere? Someone who never planned own a law firm, which is really kind of interesting to actually opening the doors by yourself.

Audra Doyle 00:02:16  That is, as I was filling in my questionnaire, I really started to reflect on all the changes that I never expected to happen.

Audra Doyle 00:02:24  You know, when you're going to undergrad, you know, I was going to be a music teacher and I was dedicated to to music. And we realized my husband and I realized that one of us needed to do something different because he's also a teacher. And so it just so happened that I ended up in law school and ended up loving immigration. And I was happy working for another immigration lawyer. But one day she said, I'm planning to retire. And would you be interested in taking over this business? So when the you know, and it had already happened several times, the opportunity came knocking. And the first thing you need to do is be able to see the opportunity for what it is and to not reject it because it's not what you planned on doing. And I have, you know, very reluctantly, I don't like change. I like everything to stay the same. But I've learned, you know, as I've gotten older, that it's going to happen and how you react to it and how you pivot, could be a wonderful thing in disguise.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:34  So did you buy an intact firm?

Audra Doyle 00:03:36  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:37  Okay. Yes. Can you talk about how that transaction, like what was the what were the terms of that? Because I'm very interested as to was like a cash by digit pair over time. Yeah. That's that's interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:03:48  It was a cash buy. and I had been working for her for years, actually. Was an intern for her left and came back and I was an attorney for her, so we had an excellent working relationship. I knew a lot of the clients already, and it seemed very natural to take over. and deciding on the terms was very difficult. So we yes, we went through a lot of iterations. You know, we we talked about whether we should get a valuation of the firm, whether we should have an outside company negotiate for us. And after all that, we knew each other so well that we just decided to handle it on our own. So we didn't need to do all those higher level things that I think other law firm owners may want to consider.

Audra Doyle 00:04:37  if it were someone whose firm I didn't know very well, a person I didn't know very well, I probably would go through a more formal route, but we agreed on the terms. she stayed on as sort of an attorney emeritus and wrapped up her cases. Because in the world of immigration law, you can't just close the doors one day. Cases last for years. so it was very smooth, a nice, smooth process. And to this day I'm still getting. And that was one of the things, the goodwill of the firm that I wanted to purchase. To this day, I'm still getting some of her old clients that reach out and say, hey, I worked with her. I heard that you took over, and that was 6 or 7 years ago now, so it's been worth it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:22  Is there anything you would have done differently in that purchase now that you've thought about it a little bit?

Audra Doyle 00:05:28  Probably not. I think it went very well and I like how it turned out.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:33  Okay.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:34  Did when it comes to the purchase itself? Yes. Did you have to finance that? Because, I mean, you came up as a teacher.

Audra Doyle 00:05:41  I did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:41  So did you have the finance?

Audra Doyle 00:05:43  I did have to finance it. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:45  How hard was it to get bank financing for them?

Audra Doyle 00:05:48  Not very hard at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:49  Really?

Audra Doyle 00:05:50  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:50  Okay. Was it? Did you go through a local bank National challenge?

Audra Doyle 00:05:53  I did went through a local bank, and it was not a large fee because she was looking to get out. And also, she wanted me to take over cases that just wouldn't be finished. So I was taking on some of her unfinished work, and that was part of the agreement.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:11  Oh. Very nice. So when you say by not a large fee, what we're talking is. I'm very curious.

Audra Doyle 00:06:17  Okay. it was less than 100,000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:21  Wow. So you got a steal? I did, I'm assuming it seems like a steal.

Audra Doyle 00:06:25  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:25  Okay.

Audra Doyle 00:06:26  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:27  Do you think that there are still opportunities in the market for situations like that, that that that people could go and buy smaller firms?

Audra Doyle 00:06:35  Yes.

Audra Doyle 00:06:36  We, my partner and I, Nirmal Thiru, actually looked at buying another firm last year. the deal fell through. But lawyers are always retiring and I think the opportunities are there for a young lawyer to take over a more established firm. the reason that deal didn't go through is because that lawyer, wanted us to take over and take over all the liability, and it was the balance didn't work. So you have to be really careful about that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:06  Can you? Can you even get insurance, I wonder? Malpractice insurance. Whenever you take over a firm like that and take on the liability.

Audra Doyle 00:07:13  Exactly. Yeah. I haven't looked into it in years, so that may be an issue.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:19  I wonder why that attorney was so, so eager to try to pass on the liability just because to me that screams there's some grenades in there.

Audra Doyle 00:07:29  Oh, there were, there absolutely were. So the the deal that I thought I was taking was that, you know, he had all these active cases. We were going to go through them and, you know, make sure that I agreed with the legal strategy on the case.

Audra Doyle 00:07:43  And turns out I didn't agree on many of the legal strategies. and, you know, the more we got into it, the more he still wanted to be very involved instead of allowing me to be the lead on these cases. And so it was too many cooks in the kitchen kind of situation, you know, it was too much.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:06  I want to go back before normal. Okay. Whenever you took that firm. Yeah. Was it just you or did you take out her staff too?

Audra Doyle 00:08:12  It was just me and her staff had just retired. They all retired.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:19  So you were pretty much a true solo. I know that she was on as the emeritus.

Audra Doyle 00:08:23  Yes. Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:25  You were. You were true. So? So what was.

Audra Doyle 00:08:27  I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:28  Was doing? You go from. You're a teacher, you go to law school, and now you take it on a practice. What was that like in those early days?

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:36  Like running a classroom where you're the only one?

Audra Doyle 00:08:41  It's interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:08:43  you know, you you get used to being in charge as a teacher, so that felt very natural to be a leader of the firm.

Audra Doyle 00:08:50  And I had been in charge of hiring for her firm for a long time. So I felt very comfortable and I was able to easily hire on some new people. I got a law intern from a local university right away. I found some very sharp case managers, and I got an awesome, an awesome executive assistant. And here's a tip for everyone. Now, when I am hiring, I want to know what the employees experience in customer service is. So my current executive assistant used to work in a call center answering angry phone calls all day long. He is unflappable, and so I look for that personality as much as I look for the skills, because I can always build those.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:42  That's really good. I used to really think about whenever I work in a state farm. and every once in a while that you have, like, a storm or a hurricane or whatever, like some big thing. Right, right. And you'd, some people have to work the cat team. And so like the catastrophic loss team.

Audra Doyle 00:09:57  Oh okay. Yeah. But you so you had to take some people flew out to wherever there was other people. Like I had to like sit and do calls. And these are people that have lost their lives and like their entire like livelihood, like their, their houses are gone. Their, their, their jobs are gone because the building is gone. Right. Yeah. And they're calling. It's the worst.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:19  It is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:19  Their life.

Audra Doyle 00:10:20  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:20  Have to, like, put on a good face and, like, try to walk them through this. And so I think you're so right. Because it it it it almost forces you to learn these things. Like how to communicate with people.

Audra Doyle 00:10:32  Absolutely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:33  And I'm sure that like, Self Harm had a great training program. So that's part of it too. If you if you have someone with customer service background, yeah, they're hopefully going to have some sort of training too, which is just phenomenal. Yeah. Great advice. I used to love hiring bartenders.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:47  Bartenders are great. I see a great deal of people.

Audra Doyle 00:10:49  Yeah, they know how to manage the room. They know how to spot, you know, different things. And those those innate skills really help.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:56  Absolutely.

Audra Doyle 00:10:57  Especially a front facing person.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:59  Absolutely. Well, at some point, I'm curious because how quickly did you start to hire people?

Audra Doyle 00:11:05  Right away.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:06  Okay. Like what? What how did you know to do that? Because I was in law school.

Audra Doyle 00:11:11  Yeah, I knew that I could. I had basically been the senior attorney for my partner, my old attorneys, law firm, so I was basically running things for her. she was the owner, but I was doing the hiring. I was managing the paralegals and things like that. So I knew what my caseload was. It's very large, and I definitely knew I needed help right away or else I would sink.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:36  Gotcha. Right. So at some point you pivoted again though. Yes, partner. Yes. What was it? What made you think that you needed a partner?

Audra Doyle 00:11:45  Another unexpected change.

Audra Doyle 00:11:46  I didn't know I needed a partner, but I was looking for more business. And he is Indian. And he came to. I was giving a talk about immigration down at the Georgia bar, and he was there. And I noticed this funny story. I noticed this guy in the audience, you know, watching very intently. And then when I was finished with my talk, he kept turning around and looking, and I was like, what's going on? And he came up later and said, I, I'm very interested in going into immigration law. I would love for you to be my mentor. So I said, of course, you know, it sounds interesting. and after he talked to me one time, he said, I don't want to do immigration law, but I've got all these clients, you know, they're. I'm Indian, I speak the language, and, they need help with their immigration cases. So what can we do to make this work for us? So we agreed to become partners.

Audra Doyle 00:12:42  And it's sort of like running two different law firms right now, which works for us. he's in a different location. He's handling, different practice areas than me. And, when his clients need assistance with immigration, I'm the referral.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:58  Interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:12:59  Yes. And vice versa, because he does family law, he does personal injury. And so when my clients need those services, I send them to him.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:08  Okay. That leads to a lot of other questions I have. Then from a marketing standpoint, yes. How do you market?

Audra Doyle 00:13:16  Thank you. He does not market his practice areas but I market mine. So that's something that I'm really thinking about right now that we'll talk about when we get to the next change that's coming. Yeah. How do I market for two practice areas? Because I feel like I've been very successful marketing for the one for immigration. So how do I add on another one without diluting the strength of my marketing?

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:44  Sure. Which is really, really tough. Yeah, with one brand.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:47  And I've got questions I want to ask you about that too, when it comes to that partnership. Is it. Is it 5050? How do you split the money? I like because these are like the things, like the young ones. You're going to want to know.

Audra Doyle 00:14:00  Absolutely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:01  Like, how do you extend whatever I had? My partnership was 5050. Like it didn't matter. Expenses or revenues, like. Yeah, we split everything 5050. So how do you do things? Because you have different practice areas.

Audra Doyle 00:14:12  We do. And, you know, whole different office. He doesn't have any employees. So I had an established firm and he was a solo. And I you know, we went through all of these discussions and I said, let me keep my team, let me keep my law firm, Doyle Law, and I'll keep the payroll the same. And my team works for me. I pay them, you know, handle all the taxes and everything. He is not involved with that at all.

Audra Doyle 00:14:38  So it's basically like I'm running two law firms right now. Yes. And the overarching firm theory and Doyle, we simply refer to each other. And we agreed on a referral percentage. So whenever we send each other cases, we note, you know, what the other person's percentage is supposed to be. And we have a joint bank account and we take our fees that way.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:02  That's really interesting. I don't know if I've heard anybody else do it.

Audra Doyle 00:15:05  That works for us. Yeah, it it was a lot of negotiation, but we we knew that we would work well together. Our personalities are very similar. And it was an opportunity, you know, I wasn't looking for, but it came to me and I thought, this is great. And I have gotten a lot more business and a lot more recognition in his community as being part of his firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:30  So you said something a secondary you said works for us And I love that because there's so many people out there. You must do it this way.

Audra Doyle 00:15:39  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:40  You've got to do it this way. And that's just not the reality.

Audra Doyle 00:15:43  It's true.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:44  There's a lot of different ways of doing things, but you wonder if you would change anything, the way you shape the partnership. Now that you've done it a while.

Audra Doyle 00:15:54  Probably not. I, I can't think of anything that desperately needs changing at this point, but I am facing big changes next year. you know, one of them. I think we can go into this. one of them is that I think I need to add another practice area, because immigration has become so difficult. Like, I love being an immigration lawyer, and I don't want to do anything different, but for my mental health, peace and stability, steady income. I want to add something else that's less contentious. So that's one thing. Second thing is I'm coming up on my lease ending at my office, and my partner just bought a building. So I'm thinking about moving to a different location, and that is going to change our dynamic, because we're going to be in the same building now, and we're going to have to lay down some rules about how things work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:52  So this is a great segue into the question I was about to ask you.

Audra Doyle 00:16:55  Okay, so.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:57  Before you all partnered up and everything, I'm sure you all had to have some really serious conversations.

Audra Doyle 00:17:02  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:03  What were some of those those those things that you all talked about in those early conversations? And then what do you think are some of the things you're going to have to talk about now as you're pivoting?

Audra Doyle 00:17:12  Exactly. One thing. Especially we're both strong personalities. And I wanted to make sure that I was still the boss in my cases. So that's very important to me. I am the expert on immigration. I want to be the one that's in charge of the case structure and things like that. I did not want a second guesser as a partner. or who would question me in my decisions and vice versa. He doesn't either. so we talked about that carefully because these are his referrals. They're from his community, so he feels a little extra. what's the word I'm looking for? Not entitled, like concern.

Audra Doyle 00:17:58  A little extra concern to make sure that they're served well and their cases go well and everything. but that's something that I'm glad we agreed on. And we need. We try to make sure we're not encroaching on the other other person. as we're referring people to each other. So that's that's a very important consideration for me. also, when you have the two different practice areas, I think it's better that way than two people running the same firm is going to bleed over a lot more. So if you are just doing, let's say, estate planning and you have two lawyers in the firm, all the same clients, all the same employees doing the same work, the division of work, and making sure that both attorneys are served equally needs to be looked at carefully.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:46  Did you have those conversations before?

Audra Doyle 00:18:47  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:48  What were those conversations like? Did you all disagree at any point?

Audra Doyle 00:18:52  Not really. we were both eager to make this work. and it wasn't contentious. It wasn't a big disagreement. You know, I was very curious how he wanted to use my employees.

Audra Doyle 00:19:05  You know, like, if I'm paying the employees 100%, then I should get them 100%, that sort of thing. And, he was very understanding and agreeable. And another change we're looking at is we're looking to hire our first lawyer.

Audra Doyle 00:19:21  Yes, yes.

Audra Doyle 00:19:23  And we would love for this person to be able to handle both practice areas.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:31  Do you think?

Audra Doyle 00:19:32  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:34  Do you think that that's reasonable?

Audra Doyle 00:19:37  That is what we're talking about right now. Because I'm working it over in my head. You know, immigration is a very in-depth subject. It's not something you can just gloss over. And do, you know, as a dabbler, he is doing family law, so we really want someone to help him in court, you know, deal with depositions and things like that. So we're looking for someone who's wanting to be more of a general practitioner and not niche down into one specific area, and I am open minded enough and wise enough, hopefully by now to know that, you know, it's going to be hard to find somebody willing to do that.

Audra Doyle 00:20:17  And as they grow in our firm, they may lean towards one area or another.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:24  Do you think there's someone out there that exists That is, that can be proficient in both of those practice areas.

Audra Doyle 00:20:31  For me, they don't have to be as knowledgeable as me to be an immigration lawyer. I you know, it comes from my teaching background. I am very used to training people, teaching them about immigration. You know, I have had so many law interns that are now immigration lawyers, so I feel confident that I could get them to a place where I feel comfortable. They can do cases, and then they can come to me for questions.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:00  I'll tell you what this sounds like.

Audra Doyle 00:21:01  Go ahead.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:01  And I could be completely wrong about this. I'm not I'm not poo pooing on.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:05  This at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:06  It sounds like that whenever people they want to hire their first employee.

Audra Doyle 00:21:09  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:09  And they want that employee to do everything.

Audra Doyle 00:21:11  I.

Audra Doyle 00:21:12  Agree.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:12  To do billing and answering the phone to be a paralegal and everything.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:16  And it sounds a bit like that, which I hope I'm wrong and hopefully you can find that person. But it does make me wonder if that's maybe where your mind is a little bit too much. I don't I don't know if that person exists. Maybe they do exist. I'm sure they probably do somewhere. But yeah, I guess. How do you hire for a job like that?

Audra Doyle 00:21:33  Exactly. So we're about to meet and we've already written our job description.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:38  Oh, I guess.

Audra Doyle 00:21:41  Yeah. Well, we're going to meet we're going to go over it, you know, it's it's not set in stone yet, but we've already written it. and we're going to talk about these issues because like you, you know, I have some qualms about it. I'm not sure if it's going to work, but, on paper, it looks like what we need, like, we would love to have someone help us with the caseload in both practice areas, and they don't have to be 100% expert when they come in the door.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:09  Yeah, sure. That's fair.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:12  What happens when the two of you disagree on something in this process?

Audra Doyle 00:22:21  we rarely disagree, you know, I think that could definitely be coming with the move to his office with hiring an associate. And I'm just aware of his personality, and I think vice versa for me. I don't like that I deal with such a contentious practice area. There's conflict all day long. I don't want a business partner where I also have to have these disagreements and conflict. So I have somebody like that. Thank goodness we're both looking to find a way to solve the problem. We'll have lunch, we'll hash it out. We'll go back and think about it. We meet every Friday virtually and talk about any issues that we're going over. You know, any client issues, that sort of thing. so we're always looking for a solution. And I think the mindset between the two of us is why it works.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:12  It's maybe a bit of a dark question. It's not meant to be that way.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:14  I promise that whenever I've had my partner, we look, it's really good. Advice I got was plan for the end in mind. And I think he and I both had the same mindset. Like, let's have this thing all written out so we know what happens if we do break up.

Audra Doyle 00:23:27  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:27  Did you all do the same?

Audra Doyle 00:23:28  We did.

Audra Doyle 00:23:29  Yeah. We wrote everything out.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:31  Was that a difficult conversation or negotiation?

Audra Doyle 00:23:35  It wasn't very difficult. And that's why I felt like, you know, this was the right thing because everything went into place so well. You know, when when you're looking at big changes and you keep trying to force something and it's not working and it's not working and it's not working, you need to step back and say, why is this not working? You know, is this the right thing for me to be doing? Like, you really need to be able to reflect and make sure that that is the right move if nothing is working.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:06  What what do you wish you had talked about before signing anything?

Audra Doyle 00:24:12  Oh.

Audra Doyle 00:24:14  Let's see with him.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:16  Correct.

Audra Doyle 00:24:17  Okay. It would have been nice to go ahead and have our decision for a future attorney nailed down. I feel like we're a little bit behind the eight ball right now because we need them now, and we haven't even started to recruit. It's going to take a long time. We're going to have to train them up. So I wish that we had talked a little more about expansion. and the fact that we would be wanting to expand and grow our practices.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:48  Do you think part of that is just because there are kind of like two separate firms within one?

Audra Doyle 00:24:52  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:52  So like the vision is not aligned completely.

Audra Doyle 00:24:56  Yeah I think so.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:58  How do you how do you sort of solidify that vision going forward do you think.

Audra Doyle 00:25:02  I think that that's going to be part of our conversation with this new person, whoever we hire. because I want them to be. I don't want them to feel pulled between two different lawyers, two different locations, two different practice areas.

Audra Doyle 00:25:17  You know, just pulled back and forth and different requirements from each attorney. So I think our vision of how we want that to go, and overall how we want the firm to move forward, is going to be part of this conversation.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:32  I like it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:33  Okay. So we've talked a lot about pivots. You had lots of pivots in here.

Audra Doyle 00:25:35  I did, yes. Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:38  So, you're at another one of those decision points.

Audra Doyle 00:25:43  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:44  That you will have to make some decisions. So you said that immigration has been hammered in 2026. Can you. Can you give us some numbers to help you kind of figure out what you're talking about?

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:54  Because, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:55  I've actually given Jimmy.

Audra Doyle 00:25:57  You know. Oh, yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:59  You're really good buddies. he and I, like we're always texting. It's funny. I'm not asking him about this because, it usually gets into politics, and I always. I try to avoid.

Audra Doyle 00:26:08  Politics and.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:08  Everything.

Audra Doyle 00:26:09  So we're not doing that today.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:12  Sometimes.

Audra Doyle 00:26:14  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:14  So I, I always kind of steer with away from it. I am very curious about like, what do the numbers look like in 2026 for immigrants?

Audra Doyle 00:26:22  Yeah.

Audra Doyle 00:26:24  the worst thing for me this year is the fact that it's a yo yo. Month to month. If there is some sort of policy change. Big announcement. The numbers go up. Then when things settle down again or, you know, something negative happens, the numbers go down. so the that effect is not good for business. And I want more stability. another thing that has really hammered me is, you know, I had my fees built in as first fee to file second fee after approval. We're not getting as many approvals and the cases are the same. The work is the same. Everything's the same. We're getting more denials. I would say for EB one cases At least I would say 30%, maybe more.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:20  They've decreased by.

Audra Doyle 00:27:21  30%. Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:23  Wow.

Audra Doyle 00:27:23  Approvals.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:24  So that's interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:27:25  Yeah. Nationwide it was at probably 90% before 2025.

Audra Doyle 00:27:31  And now I think we're at 60% nationwide. So I'm still getting some cases approved. But I have to do every case twice. So my contract is constantly being edited right now to try and anticipate all these new things that we're dealing with. but it it's just getting to be too much.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:50  So do you get paid multiple times if there's a if there's a denial.

Audra Doyle 00:27:55  No.

Audra Doyle 00:27:56  If there's a denial, I don't make my second legal fee payment.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:00  So I, I actually didn't know that was a possibility. So it's it's technically contingent then.

Audra Doyle 00:28:05  Yeah.

Audra Doyle 00:28:06  Part of it's contingent. So the first legal fee is, you know, set you're not getting a refund for that. If the work is done I get paid. but I like to build in a little risk for the clients and they love that. I will never some law firms give 100% guarantee money back guarantee. I feel sorry for them right now because I don't know how they're still in business with that business model. so I, I'm making at least half of my fee, and I've started to build in some pretty robust.

Audra Doyle 00:28:36  We call them RFE fees requests for evidence. So, for these cases, I'm having to write them twice. Yeah. So I'm getting robust RFE fees, but that is less than my second legal fee payment was. So the numbers are going down.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:53  So is revenue for the year down.

Audra Doyle 00:28:55  A little bit? Not horribly. but I see which way it's going and I have to be prepared for that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:03  So I'd say what would be like catastrophic to me with like a 20% loss, like, like lower.

Audra Doyle 00:29:10  Than.

Audra Doyle 00:29:11  I'm not at a 20% loss, however. We have two more years of this administration and things are getting tougher and tougher and tougher. so I don't want to be caught when, you know, all cases are denied that sort of thing. You know, a business just totally dries up. I've got to be nimble, and I've got to think about a change.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:34  So there's a and there's a roller coaster of new case sign ups.

Audra Doyle 00:29:37  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:38  But overall, are they this. Are they the same year over year or are those down as well?

Audra Doyle 00:29:43  I'm a little bit down this year and we'll see how I end up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:46  So it seems like the bulk of the the dip is in the revenue is from the, the actual denials.

Audra Doyle 00:29:52  Yes. Wow. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:55  That's interesting.

Audra Doyle 00:29:55  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:57  Is there a way of fixing that on the front end with only taking certain cases?

Audra Doyle 00:30:02  Exactly. So I have definitely turned down a lot more cases. also, I have raised my fees to where the first legal fee payment is higher than it used to be.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:14  It's a good idea.

Audra Doyle 00:30:15  Yeah, it's a great idea.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:17  Can you talk about raising rates overall?

Audra Doyle 00:30:19  Yes, and I have.

Audra Doyle 00:30:21  Okay.

Audra Doyle 00:30:23  I would say I'm not good at percentages Tyson. yeah I would say probably 10 to 20%. Yeah. Trying to make up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:33  Because my, the reason I'm asking more specific is to, because like some of them might be wanting to get into immigration. No idea what they're getting into.

Audra Doyle 00:30:42  I would say the money right now. Like if you don't get into immigration to be a millionaire, you know, I drive a Honda, as my immigration professor used to say, I drive a Honda, not a BMW.

Audra Doyle 00:30:54  but the money was very steady for many years, and now it's just really contentious. I think the best place to go. People are looking. There's a need is removal defense, which is the most difficult area of immigration law. I mean, the the denials are sky high, so you have to go in there realizing you're going to lose most of the time these days.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:20  Which is an odd thing, right? Because like, you lose your clients going.

Audra Doyle 00:31:24  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Audra Doyle 00:31:25  And, you know, their family's still here. They could be in danger when they're going back to their home country. So it is a horrible feeling.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:33  So again, this is not a political question. I'm just very curious because whenever like when I was talking to to Jim, it seemed like his, his best years he's ever had was under the first Trump administration. And then it wasn't as good under Biden. And now is it? What's the difference between this administration, Trump administration, and the last one when it comes to revenue?

Audra Doyle 00:31:55  My best years owning my firm were under Biden because he opened up more opportunities for people.

Audra Doyle 00:32:03  So they would, you know, there was something called the stem. you know, they would really look at at clients who had us degrees. They were working in Stem fields. They were improving the US economy or industry or that sort of thing. Those things have gone away. So I think if you're in removal defense, it's booming right now. But if you're in affirmative immigration, which is what I do, it's gone down.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:26  Interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:27  Okay. So it has to do with some of those things.

Audra Doyle 00:32:29  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:29  That wasn't done in the first administration.

Audra Doyle 00:32:31  Not as much.

Audra Doyle 00:32:32  Gotcha. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:33  Because I'm trying to understand why and I it's just.

Audra Doyle 00:32:37  Oh, I.

Audra Doyle 00:32:38  Will tell you, my perception is that the first administration, they tried a lot of things and they were slower to implement. But if you remember, back in January 2025, how many executive orders did he sign in the first week? Well, tons, tons and tons.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:57  Right.

Audra Doyle 00:32:58  But the idea was they were ready to go the first day with all of these immigration changes much faster than the last time around.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:06  So how long? How long does it take to hit you all? Because that's a question I've always had about policy in general, because it's interesting how much murals practice areas affected by the federal government and specifically the president. How long does it take? So an executive order signed in January of 2025. How long does it take to hit your practice area?

Audra Doyle 00:33:30  It's an immediate impact for clients money wise. It depends on if it sticks or not, because I think a lot of people in the immigrant community, they they all talk to each other, they watch the news, they get scared. They say, I hear this all the time, and it's so interesting to me. They are like, should I go ahead and file or should I wait? That's a question I get asked a lot. And my philosophy is things don't get better under this president. You know, things get tougher and tougher. So if you wait, you're definitely going to have a tougher time. but it does take a little time to trickle down.

Audra Doyle 00:34:08  Sometimes it's immediate. Such as we had the executive order about the H-1b $100,000 fee. My H-1b is, you know, I'm a small firm. I had 21 year. I had ten the next year, and I think I had 2 in 2026. So that was a huge hit.

Audra Doyle 00:34:25  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Audra Doyle 00:34:28  Just because of that one policy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:30  Interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:31  Okay. We're going to pivot because we're gonna talk about pivoting anyways. So it's interesting because what got you going from thinking oh this is just a rough stretch. We're going to write it out, to actually thinking, okay. No, actually what we need to do is we need to add a new practice area and, and maybe even pivot out of immigration completely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:52  So, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:53  What got you thinking.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:54  That I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:55  Don't want to completely leave immigration? I am cognizant that if you don't do it all day, every day, you might miss some things, so I have to be really careful about that as a lawyer. But I have always loved estate planning.

Audra Doyle 00:35:08  I've always had my my toe in that world a little bit. and I have, you know, I feel like it's something where I would be able to help people once again. I think that's one of my core values. I love helping people. and I love working with people. I love working with families and helping them reach their goals. So estate planning would also do all those things. I found it an interesting practice area. I have experience, you know, I've written several wills and trusts and things myself, so it's not completely foreign to me. seem natural to move over to that. And I don't want to go to court.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:49  So was there a specific conversation you all had, or like some sort of monetary like the numbers were down, I guess. What made you what was the trigger for you? They were like, okay, we gotta I gotta make another, I gotta, we.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:59  Gotta put it.

Audra Doyle 00:36:00  Yeah, it was in the spring. when I just it I was completely overwhelmed.

Audra Doyle 00:36:06  It this it's been very tough. you know, not trying to maintain my mental health. Physical health, is. And I'm just hunkered down. I feel like I'm weathering a hurricane, you know? And I'm in the bunker. so this has been very, very difficult. And I know that I don't want to live the rest of my life and career with this sort of atmosphere of contention, change, political whim. You know, what's the next president going to do? That sort of thing. So I thought something more stable. and estate planning does not change all the time. it's pretty stable. It's also state law. instead of federal law, you know, we deal with some tax issues and that sort of thing. But, that also interested me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:55  So you mentioned mental health a couple of times.

Audra Doyle 00:36:58  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:58  I wonder, is this more of a mental health, not mental health? Is this more of a the mental stress thing, or is this more a financial part of it?

Audra Doyle 00:37:06  It is mental just as much as financial.

Audra Doyle 00:37:09  I think I could squeak through this administration, but what am I going to be at the end, you know? Am I going to be an angry lady who, you know, just gets out of bed and and goes to fight every day? And, it's I it's hard to explain how rough it is in this field.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:28  yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:29  I wonder if this has led to any tough conversations with your partner about whether or not you should abandon immigration, period.

Audra Doyle 00:37:37  We've talked about it, but I know I don't want to abandon it completely. I know that I still can do good. but just I need some peaceful cases.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:49  As he as he leaned on Udall to to abandon.

Audra Doyle 00:37:51  It. No.

Audra Doyle 00:37:52  Not at all. Yeah. And he wants to expand, too. So he's doing two practice areas. I would add another one. you know, we're interested in doing different things, and it's so interesting to me. I wondered what you would think about this. We're always talking about niching down, you know, and that has been very successful for me.

Audra Doyle 00:38:11  But it's not working right now. And so that's when I have to be, realize that if it's not working for me, this niche is causing me a lot of stress. What can I do different? And this seemed like a good choice for me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:29  It is one of those odd things that a niche is really. It's one of those things where you will make the most money. but it's also it's the most susceptible.

Audra Doyle 00:38:39  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:41  Then. But I think.

Audra Doyle 00:38:43  Like, let's say this, what if there's tort reform.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:47  Which that was, that was going to be my only comparison. Yeah, right. And I think you've seen that in Florida. That's what you've seen. Morgan and Morgan sort of spread across.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:55  The country.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:56  Their, their bread and butter has been taken away from them to a certain extent. They still make.

Audra Doyle 00:39:01  Money. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:02  You know, but so I do think that that is, that's been tried in Missouri. Luckily what we've seen in most states where there's been reform, people have woken up to realize that it's just their rights.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:14  They're voting their rights away.

Audra Doyle 00:39:15  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:16  Doing.

Audra Doyle 00:39:16  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:17  Most people have woken up to that. I think with it being a state to state issue, it's easier to fight. Whereas we've got some federal government, you've got immigration, federal. It can be done with an executive order that can be taken away with the stroke of a pen.

Audra Doyle 00:39:30  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:30  That I think it makes it a little more susceptible. So I, I'm still a firm believer in niching down.

Audra Doyle 00:39:37  Yeah. It worked for years for me.

Audra Doyle 00:39:39  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:39  And I still think that's the right business strategy. Yes, but it is. There is the there is the risk. And what's the hard part too is like you were getting paid based upon part of your payments are being paid that they're based upon whether or not it's denied or approved.

Audra Doyle 00:39:55  Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:55  Which you have, you have very little control over it.

Audra Doyle 00:39:59  That's. Yeah.

Audra Doyle 00:40:00  It's not like I'm taking terrible cases all of a sudden, there's still wonderful cases, excellent cases, and, you know, just getting hammered left and right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:10  My bigger concern about the issue picked to maybe add on.

Audra Doyle 00:40:15  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:15  So not immigration to the estate planning is I feel like that is the most susceptible out of any practice area to be just replaced by AI.

Audra Doyle 00:40:22  That's the biggest.

Audra Doyle 00:40:23  I was thinking about that, but I thought about what's my angle. And all of my clients are immigrants and many of them own property in other countries. So how can and my partner is a lawyer in India. Yes he is. So he practiced for ten years in India before he came to the US. So that is our little angle that we have something extra for our clients. International estate planning. when you have us citizen children, oftentimes they're not Indian citizens, but the parents are the parents own property in two different countries quite often. And how are we going to arrange all of that to fit their needs for future estate planning? So I thought about the same thing. Tyson, how am I going to distinguish myself? There's 1,000,001 estate planning law firms in Georgia.

Audra Doyle 00:41:17  but my clients have different needs.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:21  Okay. So question. I've never thought about this. I understand how you can take care of the estate planning for the US and India.

Audra Doyle 00:41:29  Yep.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:30  How can you? Let's say it was the UK, I guess. How exactly do you do the estate planning for the UK property?

Audra Doyle 00:41:35  Yeah, so I've been thinking about that. I have a client who owns property in Rio, in Brazil. yeah. So I thought, you know, maybe I'm going to. I actually, have a paralegal who is a lawyer in Brazil, so I'm going to use my connections with all these different countries. You know, when I have property in other countries, if we need to do something legally in those countries, I will reach out and get that assistance in that country.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:04  I think what I would do, I would look for where do the where do Americans buy the most land in like other in other countries?

Audra Doyle 00:42:11  That's a great question. I would say Mexico. Yeah, it's my guess.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:15  Oh yeah, that's a great guess. Canada and Mexico.

Audra Doyle 00:42:17  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:18  Yes, I probably figured that out and I'd probably focus on those specific peoples. But the target. And then I would probably have to hire an attorney in each of those countries.

Audra Doyle 00:42:28  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:29  Just as a detective matter. Or you can even hire a contract. Attorneys.

Audra Doyle 00:42:33  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:35  although I believe Canada probably has some stricter employment laws. And so that would something you have to look at. Yeah, but that's probably where I would go if I were going to do it. And because it's interesting because it now I, I'm liking your idea more because now it's got the more blend of you've got the immigration stuff. Yeah, maybe tied into it as well. I think that part would be pretty cool. So now you can you can really market that.

Audra Doyle 00:43:00  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:01  Now you got something you can market. Whereas before I'm adding estate planning and now you've got the firm that's been marketing immigration forever.

Audra Doyle 00:43:09  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:09  Now you're. I wouldn't even say that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:11  I mean, you're definitely adding on a practice area, but you're you're extending your services to your current client.

Audra Doyle 00:43:17  Exactly. That was the idea.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:20  I like that. Okay. Where'd you come up with that idea. That's a cool idea.

Audra Doyle 00:43:24  I see it I just kept seeing it you know. Well fun story. I have a client that needed this type of work and I wasn't doing the work. We had just applied for her citizenship, and she had to stop her citizenship application because she was an heiress of a famous grocery store chain in her home country. And the laws in that country said that if you become a citizen of another country, you're not going to get your inheritance. Yes. And so they have us citizen children, and she had to give up her application for citizenship. So she just has a green card. And I thought, you know, these issues are going to keep coming up. I often hear of clients that say, well, my home property so-and-so, I'm renting it out.

Audra Doyle 00:44:12  a lot of immigrants have rental income, which means they own property. In other countries they have kids. What's going to happen if something happens to them?

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:21  Yeah. Let's see. I see that's a pretty big problem. I would probably look in China, too. I think it would seem like there'd be like some, like the population so heavily heavy. It's a large. And then you have so many Chinese moving to the United States, probably also owning land back in the, in China and becoming US, U.S. citizens. I think that's another one I'd probably focus on, too.

Audra Doyle 00:44:44  Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, you know. Are they? What are the land ownership rights of China? Yeah, I don't know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:52  You need a Chinese attorney, right?

Audra Doyle 00:44:54  Like, are they allowed to own land like an American system or. I don't know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:00  I also like the idea that you can, I think, see to to me, you and your partner and everyone else listening. It may not mean a whole lot to us to understand that it's just a title, but I think to clients, you're now an international law firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:14  I think that that does say something to some clients, especially immigration to clients. Yes. Like or I mean, and honestly to people that have properties in both in both countries having international law firm to to me makes the most sense. Right. If you're if you're an actual potential client. Yeah. It could be a selling point to just adding one attorney, another country, you know. Right. International law firm. I think there's some branding juice to that for sure.

Audra Doyle 00:45:41  Love it. I will keep that in mind.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:43  You're doing a lot of marketing though.

Audra Doyle 00:45:45  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:45  So how do you change your messaging?

Audra Doyle 00:45:48  That is my big worry right now. So I have been and shout out to TikTok. I have been very successful on TikTok. if you're not in that, you know, space right now. I think that there still is opportunity. So my strategy for TikTok is that I post one video a day and I go live five days a week, and I rapid fire answer questions about immigration.

Audra Doyle 00:46:15  you know, why is my case so slow? How long is it going to take? you know, should I file this case, this and that? just to point people in the right direction. So it's not legal advice, but I tell my team, I say I'm going live on TikTok. I'm going to make the phone ring. Yeah, it really works. So at minimum 30 minute live, five days a week. And I'm trying to think how where would be a good space to talk to people about estate planning because number one, it doesn't change as much. So there's always something new to talk about with immigration. Is state planning. Not so much. The second thing that is might be difficult is people don't want to face their more mortality. You know, a lot of times their head is in the sand and they don't want to face, end of life decisions even though they know they should. so I thought about maybe going back to Facebook because the group of people I'm looking at are probably more on Facebook than the younger crowd on TikTok.

Audra Doyle 00:47:17  Yep. YouTube. It has also been very successful for me. So my question is, you know, I have all these platforms already. Do I start over with my platforms or do I just start adding in and mixing it up? And will that dilute my messaging for my first practice area? So that's something I'm debating right now.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:40  I don't think it deleted it if he knew what we were talking about. And you're now extending your services and it comes to your client base with Facebook, if you're not doing anything on Facebook, you can do whatever you want. I can just tell you the way the right, like Ryan Webber did his training in the association. So you should check that out. Okay. He is he is making. They're making a ton of money. so Tiffany Webber's firm, he's doing the marketing for them. Yeah. And they're doing they're doing webinars, and they're just. He posts his numbers in the association. He says, here's our numbers. He sends me text messages about every other day.

Audra Doyle 00:48:16  Good for him.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:17  They they they can connect all the dots. It's easy to see okay, here's the ads. These are the conversions. All you're the lead. Like everything. Everything. He goes, all the numbers. And it's all Facebook. It's run from ads. So ads and then into the into their whole webinar funnel. And they do a phenomenal job. So you can do that from scratch right with Facebook. Yeah, but I still think you can. You can still do the same videos that you're doing on TikTok. Just with the just that added little message. I think you also need to probably hammer down some core values.

Audra Doyle 00:48:50  Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:51  You can mark it. Yeah, right. Like you got to figure out what that what is that message to to that client base because there is that definite overlap. Yeah. Now if it's if you're thinking I'm just going to do a state planning, that's gonna be the marketing, that's a different message, right? Which you can run those ads.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:08  Here's the thing. That's what's cool about Facebook. And anywhere that you can run ads, you can just run those ads and you can run it to a certain market. It can be a different market from your typical client market. Right. Or the people that you're currently serving. So you can still do that with a state running ads. So you can you could do both of those. So what you might be doing is doing a TikTok live and then an hour later might be doing a webinar like what you're doing.

Audra Doyle 00:49:34  Exactly. So yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:36  It's the what's interesting is we're calling them webinars. That's essentially what you've been doing on TikTok, right? You're doing a form of a webinar.

Audra Doyle 00:49:44  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:45  So I mean, do you would you feel comfortable doing that if that's.

Audra Doyle 00:49:49  Yes, I like it. Surprisingly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:54  I wonder how do you do, you know, estate planning not.

Audra Doyle 00:49:59  You know, took the class in law school, written a few wills and trust, but.

Audra Doyle 00:50:04  And I've also done a pretty serious cle on it. So next step is to get a mentor. but I'm just about ready to take on cases.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:14  To me, that would be the harder part, right? The marketing side, you can get the cases. Oh, it's just marketing, right? It's it's the the other part of it is like, okay, actually handling the matter.

Audra Doyle 00:50:25  Oh, yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:27  I'm ready getting the malpractice insurance lined up. Yeah. And, you know, screening the screening up in case you if you do screw something up, it's covered, you know. that's that's the bigger part of it. It's bigger in that part of it. And then how does that interfere with your immigration practice?

Audra Doyle 00:50:41  Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:42  So is how much are you? How much of the immigration practice is like transactional versus like, you know, appearing in court or going to interviews?

Audra Doyle 00:50:51  100% transactional.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:53  So you don't have to you have to go like interviews, right?

Audra Doyle 00:50:55  No, no, I do interviews.

Audra Doyle 00:50:57  That's it. And just took on my first mandamus case. Yep. So I will be going to court. Another change I didn't think I would have. but yeah, right now it's 100% transactional.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:10  When it comes to the this pivot, though. Are you thinking about, you know, have you been thinking about changing the brand and like the name of the firm, have you thought about doing any of that?

Audra Doyle 00:51:20  Not at this time. We just changed to Thiru and Doyle got everything rebranded. And we we debated. You know, I debated because I've been in this, this world about firm development, you know, thinking about what the name is, how the name reflects what we do. so if we were to decide to change our name, it would be something like international firm or show that there's different practice areas under the umbrella of the firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:50  I think if you're going to pivot, I would do something like that. Yeah. Because now you're you're saying to everybody here's what we're doing now.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:58  it makes it tough though is the fact that it is. You can't say you know dual immigration firm right. Right. It does make it more difficult because you're you're in the tagline has to be consistent. I do think that there's a lot of creative people in this world. You're very creative. You'll be able to figure out something that fits.

Audra Doyle 00:52:17  Yeah, I've already got a few ideas. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:20  Let's not do it. I do, in case someone else. I don't want them to get the trademark. Okay, so let's not.

Audra Doyle 00:52:25  Yeah. Do you have some ideas?

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:28  I'm very curious because I think that rebranding it makes sense because then it screams to people, hey, this is what we're doing now. Well, you can even do on your on your live videos. You can talk about that.

Audra Doyle 00:52:38  Yeah. I was thinking, you know, keep the name, but the tagline would explain what we do, just like Morgan and Morgan, like you said for the people. So something like that where you say the firm and immediately the tagline goes in your head.

Audra Doyle 00:52:50  Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:51  So perfect. Okay. Okay. I'm very curious to see what you got. All right. I think you got something. All right, so you're still in the middle of the story?

Multiple Speakers 00:53:00  Yes.

Audra Doyle 00:53:01  And so I don't you don't get to really wrap this thing up neatly with the bow.

Audra Doyle 00:53:06  No.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:07  This is how it started.

Audra Doyle 00:53:09  It's like an evolution. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:12  but what would have to. Let's say you came back in two years and we talked about everything that you're doing, and. Wow. The pivot. You make this big move, right? What would need to happen for you to say changing the firm was absolutely the right decision?

Audra Doyle 00:53:31  When I'm settled in the new location because I haven't mentioned this, but we're having life changes in my family too. So my daughter is about to graduate high school and my husband is about to retire. And that loosens my ties to Atlanta. So in two years I've already got it set out. I've got my vision board. I know where I want to be in two years, and I want to hold that close to my chest, but I definitely have a plan.

Audra Doyle 00:54:02  and I'm moving towards that plan step by step.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:07  Okay. So for everything to have, it had to have gone right?

Audra Doyle 00:54:11  Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:12  You've you've met all your targets. Yeah. Made the pivot. And then you're able to live where you're wanting to live.

Audra Doyle 00:54:17  Yes. And not have to work 12 to 14 hours a day. Be a little more hands off.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:27  Okay, I like it. It's a lot more concrete than just being able to be in the new spot.

Audra Doyle 00:54:32  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the other thing is to be able to not be tied down to the location. So I did a test run this summer. I left the office for two weeks, and my husband put the printer in the back of his car, and we went on vacation, and I used that printer. I used a laptop, but I was able to run the firm successfully, make money. All the wheels stayed on the bus, while I was away from the office. Traveling? Yes. So that was my test to see if this really could work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:08  Phenomenal. Well, on that note, that's all I have for you. Thank you for doing this.