In today’s podcast episode Jim and Tyson dive into strategy with Master Law Firm Business Strategist Wendy Witt.
Wendy Witt is the founder of Million Dollar Attorney®, a private consulting firm. For the last 10 years, Wendy has helped overworked, underpaid, and overwhelmed attorneys like you take the journey to the law firm and life they love. They become the million-dollar CEOs of their law firms — which means they work less, make more, and design downright incredible businesses and lives.
Watch the video here.
1:20 I went to law school and didn’t want to be a lawyer
2:38 wellness for attorney’s
3:50 changes for firm growth
5:35 Wendy’s 80/20 rule
7:30 mindset techniques
9:38 so you wish you could clone yourself
11:56 giving what’s left
14:10 dalai lama
21:05 communicating in your relationships
Jim’s Hack: Episode #448 of the Tim Ferris Podcast about mindset and how to adapt.
Wendy’s Tip: E+R+O. COVID is the event + you get to choose how you respond to it = and that will determine your outcome.
Tyson’s Tip: App: Timeline 3D
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Transcript: Million Dollar Attorney with Wendy Witt
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I’m Tyson Mutrux. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim: How are you, Tyson?
Tyson: I am doing well, man. I’ve got a deposition in a couple of hours. I’m going to get out of my T-shirt and jump into a suit in a little bit because it’s going to be a video depo. How are you doing?
Jim: I’m doing well. You’re doing a depo from your house?
Tyson: No, it’s in the office.
Jim: Oh, okay. All right, great.
Well, I am excited about our guest today. She and I’ve been online friends for a really long time, but we’ve never really had a chance to talk. She was an estate planning lawyer for a while. And now, she advises and coaches lawyers. We’re really excited to have her on the show. Her name is Wendy Witt.
Wendy, thanks for being with us.
Wendy: Well, thanks, Jim. Hi, Tyson. It’s awesome to be here. Let’s talk.
Tyson: So, Wendy, tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are right now.
Wendy: So, I went to law school– is that early enough to start [laughs]?
Tyson: Absolutely. You can start when you were born. Whatever you want.
Wendy: I went to law school and was like, “I don’t want to be a lawyer.” So, for a long time, I wasn’t. And I went in. I was pregnant with my third child and went into getting an estate plan to protect my kids because I had read some books and knew all the bad things that could happen if I didn’t have a proper estate plan in place. It’s six months pregnant with my third kid. Got offered a position as an estate planning attorney. And just because the attorney and I hit it off, I was licensed. He was like, “Oh.” As, you know, from hiring sometimes when it’s kismet, it’s kismet. You make it happen.”
So, I practiced for 15 years. Absolutely loved it. And then, was looking for more impact and figuring out what that meant. And I actually had started helping other attorneys with what I learned about marketing and about building the business. The first year I had worked in that firm, we were able to double the estate planning revenue. So, that was very fun. And it’s always been fun for me.
Then, I ended up being recruited into a large national attorney association where it was all estate planning attorneys, 4500, and I was like, boom. So, now, instead of protecting a hundred families a year, I’m protecting several hundred thousand and that was really cool to me.
So, whenever I make decisions, now, I’m looking for impact. I’m looking for, really, a way to tilt the universe. And a lot of what I do now is tilting the universe towards wellness for attorneys. I know you’re all aware of the challenges that attorneys face. And I think a lot of that – the wellness challenges. The stress challenges. The alcoholism. All the– you know, the ABA study. And those results that show the statistics are pretty scary. And I think part of that is because attorneys are giving their life and their family whatever’s leftover, instead of starting there first.
So, my philosophy is to start with where you want to be. You know, begin with the end in mind. What kind of life do you want? How do you want to spend your time? How much money do you need to live the life you want? Who do you want to work with? Who do you love? All those things. And then, really, re-refigure that to build the firm that you love. And so, that’s what I do on a daily basis.
Jim: I definitely want to get to that, to talk about lawyer wellness and the coaching that you do. But, before we do, let’s talk a little bit about when you first started working for that estate planning lawyer. I love how you came to join the firm. That’s so great that you were a client and then you started with them. I love that. But talk to us about what you saw, when you first came in and then the tweaks and changes that you were able to make to help that firm grow.
Wendy: So, first, I had a great mentor. that really helped me be able to feel empowered so that I could take the reins. And so, we were doing– you know, this was back in ‘99. So, that’s–, you know, I did their website because [laughs] it was ‘99. I would not do it today. But back then, I could.
We would do newsletters news. A lot of presentations and a lot of working with other allied professionals. So, in the estate planning world, that typically means financial advisors, CPAs, and insurance professionals. And we taught. We did a lot of teaching for the Pennsylvania Bar Institute for just local organizations, banks, and things like that. And so, that really got the word out. I think part of it was because we were out there so much more. Part, we were developing more relationships and part was because my mentor and I are of different generations. So, I think that also helped to make people feel comfortable in working with a firm, especially in estate planning, that we were going to be there for them down the road and their families.
Tyson: So, Wendy, I’m going to blatantly rip off a question that Guy Raz likes to ask. I don’t think I’ve ever done that on this podcast, but from How I Built This, Guy Raz, he always asks this question, you know, “How much of success is based upon luck? And how much is based upon hard work, and skill, and things like that?” What are your thoughts on that?
Wendy: So, I’m going to be a lawyer and not answer that question. I’m going to give you an answer to the question I want to answer and that is, I think success is 80% mindset and 20% hard work, maybe even 90/10.
Jim: All right. So, then you get involved with the overall group of elder– er, I’m sorry, estate planning lawyers. Talk to us a little bit about that. I mean, when you were then helping those lawyers grow their practices, what were the things then, and I’m sure they’re the same kind of things you see now that were holding people back from getting the growth that they wanted?
Wendy: So, the number one issue with lawyers holding themselves back is not understanding the law is a business. And that’s where I was myself. When I graduated from law school -literally, the day I graduated, my favorite professor gave me a hug and said, “Wendy, call me if you give all your money away” because I was very like, “Oh, I want to help people.”
And, you know, salespeople or business people. They just want to make money. That’s where my mindset was in 1991. And it was really a big slap in the face to learn you can’t help people without money. Everything is a business, even in a non-profit. So, even a law firm that’s a profession. So, once attorneys learn to see the ourselves as business people, first, and that the services they provide are professional, then they can understand that they need to make strategic decisions, business plans, have systems, hire, all those kind of things.
Tyson: Let’s get into the mindset part of it a little bit more. I should have followed up a few minutes ago, but I’m going to ask you now. I guess, what are some of the mindset techniques that you teach that help? Because, I mean, I think that mindset is crucial and competence is crucial. What are some things that you teach that– or things that you recommend lawyers do to get into the right mindset?
Wendy: So, we talk a lot about the rule of 100% responsibility. And what that is, is that you may not be able to determine what comes at you. So an event, whether it be the weather, a political administration, a plague, a recession, so forth, you are not able to control the things, but you are able to control your reaction to things and, therefore, you determine the outcome. So that’s the very foundational element. It’s actually a formula E for event, R plus your response equals O, the outcome. And everything comes back to that.
All other success principles build upon that understanding that the only things you can control are your thoughts, and the images you hold in your mind, and your actions, including what you say and how you say it. And so, that’s where we start. And then, to work on that. It’s really just implementing some basic success principles and tools, and even building– I’m finding, my clients, when they will take some time for some morning routine, such as a power hour where they’re doing something– and this is just an example. Of course, it’s customized to the person but, you know, 20 minutes of meditation in the morning. Then, 20 minutes of some kind of reading that inspires them. And then, 20 minutes of exercise. They’re really starting their day at a more solid place. And the more balanced you are, the better you can handle decisions and all the fires that are coming at you.
Jim: I love that. I love that.
And another thing that I want to talk about, Wendy, is leverage. Talk to us about working with teams. I think the number one problem that Tyson and I come upon, when we’re dealing with lawyers, they always say– and it’s a total tell. They always say, “Oh, I wish I could clone myself.” And to me, that’s a tell that they’re control freaks and they want to do everything. Can you talk a little bit about that problem?
Wendy: Yeah. So, having the fear of delegation would definitely be a high issue in holding yourself back. And I’m actually– today, I have to finish it. I have a deadline for the local County Bar Association on how to hire a rockstar team. And when you’re looking at it, you really– I run through an analysis, a needs analysis, that shows people who they need to hire next. And some of the ways I get people to hire is to practice delegating just, really, tiny things. There’s nothing like something getting done and you’re not the one that has to do it. I mean, that feels almost like magic. It’s a wonderful thing and can be addictive.
But, I run through financial analysis and show people how this is the process for your services. Jim, your immigration, correct? So, to get somebody a green card, there’s going to be this step, this step, this step, this step, and this step. And you would list out who are the lowest paid competent people to be able to do each of those steps. And then, you can see. You say, “Well, I do five of these a month and I do 10 of these a month.” And you take the averages and you can see. What’s really empowering is you can see exactly who to hire next. You can see whether you’re charging enough. Who your next hire is. Whether your team is working like you think they’re working, if they’re overworked or underworked. And you also see whether the work is being pushed down to the lowest paid person. And this happens a lot that it’s not. So, someone, they’re either doing– you know, a lot of times, lawyers are doing administrative work. Well, if you can pay someone $20 to do something that you could be marketing for or billing for at $300, $350, $400, or whatever. The math becomes clear, really fast, how team members pay for themselves.
Tyson: So, let’s get into some of the, I guess, I’ll call them the struggles that lawyers deal with because I know you’d mentioned that a little bit before. So, I guess, why do you think it is lawyers have issues with dependency and, you know, alcoholism and all that. Why is it? What’s causing those because it’s a clear issue?
Wendy: So, my observations for that is, what we talked about just a little bit, is lawyers are giving what’s left to themselves and to their family. Getting help is discouraged in the profession. I mean, law students who seek out law students are not seeking help in law school because they have to mark such on the bar application and they’re getting stopped from entering the profession.
So, if you’re starting in there, where it’s not okay to ask for help, and not recognizing the stress of the job, of the career, of the responsibility, of the lifestyle, then you’re discouraging people to get help. I also think, you know, there’s still a stigma to getting help. And even help for any kind of mental challenges or addiction challenges, there’s a stigma to that.
But there’s also a stigma to lawyers showing any kind of humanity, or weakness, or not knowing everything. I see it myself in that privately because it becomes much more than a business strategy thing. I’m dealing with people’s marriages and kids and how often they see them. And those conflicts are part of– for lack of a better word, the full package, a full advancement in someone’s life.
Honestly, I see on my social media threads, at least twice a month, of another attorney committing suicide. And that’s why I talk about it so much is so that it’s normalized, and wellness is normalized, and that is a priority. A friend of mine, last year, visited with the Dalai Lama. And my friend Jack, actually, asked him, you know, “What’s the most interesting thing you see in the world?” And he said “man” as in humans. And jack said, “Well, why is that?” And he said, “because man will spend all their health to get money. And then, all their money to get health.” And I think if we talk about these things from beginning and let lawyers know that they have the power to make a change because whether they’re starting out, or they’re restructuring their firm, or building the team out, even changing practice areas, it’s okay to make a change. And there’s a whole lot of people there to help you do that.
Jim: That’s awesome, Wendy. That’s awesome.
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Jim: Wendy, you mentioned having two and a half kids when you met with that lawyer. That’s so funny because I always say that I started my law firm when we had two and a half kids but, of course, I’m the dad and not the mom and I practice now with my wife who is the mother of my children.
I wonder if you could talk a little bit to the mom lawyer listeners to our show because we have a really high number of female law owners which is one of the things I’m really proud of our group. And I know that they have sort of special stressors. You know, I try to do everything I can to help Amani with the kids but there’s just this– I think there’s just still more that mom’s always have to do. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Wendy: Yeah. I would guess I would say, you know, do what I say not what I did because, in that time, I would definitely say we were in survival mode. And the years can go pretty quick. It doesn’t feel like it, when you’re in the middle of it, but the years go really quickly when you’re in survival mode.
So, it’s a matter– I would suggest that it’s a matter of picking and choosing, recognizing your unique abilities and living those unique abilities with your families, with your children, and having other people handle other things. It’s worth the investment to have other people supporting you in that role. I would suggest that you do not need to do everything that you think a 1950’s housewife/mother, combined with a 2020 lawyer, would need to do. It’s okay if you’re not the one that cooks dinner. It’s okay even if you’re not doing carpool. Like, pick the things that have the most resonance with you, that is the most important. And when you’re doing those things, make sure that that’s where your attention is. So, a French child once said to her, “Could you please listen to me with your eyes?” and that meant because, you know, when you’re half-doing something and you’re like, “yeah, yeah” but if your attention is there, that’s what your child is going to remember.
I actually taught, a few years ago, for the Pennsylvania Women’s Division of lawyers, and there was a young lawyer who stood up. She was a lawyer and her mom had been lawyer. And it made me feel so good because she said, “I want you all to know that we’re okay. It’s okay that you have this career. We were okay. We are okay.” And I wanted to hug her and take her home because you always have that challenge.
I found that, if you’re here and doing this work, you feel like you should be here and doing this work and vice-versa. So, knowing that your kids will be okay, even though you’re a dynamite lawyer and owner of a law firm, owner of a business, and pick the things that are, in your heart, your unique abilities and let other people handle everything else.
Tyson: So, I find what you said really interesting and it’s spot on. James Schramko, I was listening to his podcast the other day. And Jim will like to hear that because he loves James Schramko. But it’s something like in his previous life. He was talking about, basically, how he went from his previous life to his like current life of coaching, and how like he really had to learn to shut it off because, in his previous career, he would just, you know, berate people and destroy people. I mean, like just–
And it was just a different mindset in that career. And like, it can be difficult. I mean, you can be in trial all day or have a really difficult deposition. And then, go home. And then like, you’ve got to shut it off. I mean, it’s a different world that you’re in. And so, I think what you’re saying is spot on. But you have to do that. I mean, something you can’t take all that home with you and then put it on your family. So, I think what you’re saying is–
Wendy: So, Tyson, my brain is going “Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!” when do you say that because I have observed that, when you go through law school, a shield of filter comes over you, so you interpret every conversation. You see what’s inconsistent. You see what’s wrong. If you do not choose to turn that off– and it took me a lot of years to be able to do it. And I know it affected, you know, my marriage, my relationships, my friendships, my enjoyment of a movie. I’m like, “That is not right,” you know? And, like, if you don’t suspend disbelief, if you don’t let humans be humans, you’re always coming from the lawyer frame of mind, it is going to affect your wellness. It’s going to affect your relationships and your ability just to enjoy life.
Tyson: So, let’s talk about the relationship part of it because they don’t always understand that, right? I mean, like your friends, your family, your mom, your dad, your spouse, your kids don’t understand. I mean, how do you convey that to them? I mean, honestly, I think that that’s probably one of the hardest things for me to do is like explain to them. I don’t want to come home to them and tell them, “All this crap happened today.” And so, I don’t, you know. So, how do you though convey that to them like, “Hey, this is stressful over here. I try not to bring it home with me,” if that makes sense. I’m not sure that question makes sense but if it does.
Wendy: Yeah. It’s a good question because– it’s a thoughtful question because you need to be able to talk and have people understand your life because I understood this a little because my husband and I– my husband’s a physical therapist. I am the lawyer and business owner. And it’s like you’re living in two separate worlds. And somehow you both have to step out of those worlds to come into your own family world.
I think the best part for this is to talk to other lawyers like you have in your group. I mean, your group is magic. Your group is providing shortcuts, and mentoring, and support like I’ve never seen before. I mean, sometimes my clients even say to me like, “You’re the only one I can talk to.” Attorney clients, “You’re the only one I can talk to about this because my spouse doesn’t get it. I don’t want to disclose all this to my team. They don’t really get it.” And so, that’s what a lot of our conversations are. So, I would suggest that you have outside resources that your spouse can’t fulfill every role, and that seeking other lawyers or advisors of people who support law firms and help them is a good way to go to talk about those things.
I experienced it myself where my dad was a college professor. He would come home and he would– I thought he hated his job because he would be angry and complaining. And it was horrible. I thought he hated it. Then, years later, I actually took one of his classes. He was a dynamite teacher. He was a geology professor, so he’s up on the desk and he’s, you know, demonstrating the different types of lava. “This is ʻAʻā. And this is Pāhoehoe.” And he was dynamite. And he was so good with the kids, and just fabulous, and entertaining. But yet, I thought he hated his job.
So, I think you have to think about how you present yourself to your kids, too. It’s certainly okay for them to know you’re stressed, and have heart, and have challenges because you’re being a model to them. But what do you bring home and what do you say in front of them will determine the choices that they make, moving forward.
Jim: That’s awesome. I love that story about your dad. And I relate about sort of sometimes we’re one way at work and one way at home. So, I totally appreciate that.
All right. So, for my last question, Wendy, thanks for the kind things you said about our group. And I just have a question. This is more on the coaching side of what you do. And this is actually one of the great things about running this podcast is Tyson and I get to ask questions that actually help us, too.
And so, let’s say, hypothetically, that you had two lawyers, both of whom had successful law firms. They started a podcast four years ago. They have a Facebook group with about 3500 people in there. They have a Guild with about 70 members in there where we sort of do a little bit more hands-on coaching. But let’s say that these guys’ law firms are running themselves and they wanted to spend more of their time going to coaching. I mean, like, my favorite thing to do is to talk with lawyers or, really, any business owner about the things that they’re struggling with. When I go get my haircut, it’s really just a whole session on “How are we going to make this full on, take off?” When I talked to my friend Josh, about his chiropractic thing, we turned it into a podcast and there you go.
So, what kind of tips do you have for Tyson and I, as we find ourselves at this stage?
Wendy: Well, what could– I don’t know that you need any tips. Your law firms are running themselves. You mean where to go next?
Jim: As coaches. Yeah, as coaches.
Wendy: Yeah. Okay. So, all of your lawyers in your group have businesses that serve them, right? So, get referrals from all the lawyers in your group and bring those people into your own small business group.
Jim: I guess, what I mean is, if we wanted to be like more full-time coaches than law firm owners–
Jim: –how did you make that transition? What’s the mindset that we should be having, as we make that transition out of spending 100% of our time on our law firms and sort of growing Maximum Lawyer to more of a of a full-scale coaching operation?
Wendy: I’ve seen that you’re already doing it, right? So, do you guys have COOs that are running the firm?
Jim: I do.
Tyson: I have. I don’t call them a COO but yes.
Wendy: So, you have a COO and you’re the– would you remain the CEOs?
Jim: I don’t have to.
Tyson: I would. I would prefer to, but.
Wendy: And what I mean by the CEO is you’re the person creating the vision.
Jim: Yeah, that part I’m willing to do. Yeah, I’ve completely stepped back from day-to-day operations. I’ve completely stepped back mostly from the operation of being a lawyer. And the firm, in a lot of ways, is running a lot of it itself. So, I want to spend more of my time coaching lawyers, either one-on-one or in bigger groups, and I’m just wondering what you think about that
Wendy: Well, it depends on your goal. So, if your goal is impact money, then you need to look at groups. Like, it depends on if you want to trade time for money. So, I would suggest – you probably don’t in the long run. So, you could always use the one-on-one to build up funds to do something. But in the long run, if you’re exchanging time for money, it’s like the billable hour. You’re going to be trapped by that, by your impact.
I think you guys could have a much bigger impact than that. So, there’s masterminds or events like, you know, Max Law Con. So, someone in your situation might use– I mean, you have the really active Facebook group. So, I would do a little bit more in there, you know, to bring people into other opportunities. I haven’t been to Maw Law Con yet, but do you use that to platform into other paid opportunities?
Jim: Not yet. We just sort of go along. We just say, “That sounds like a good idea. Let’s try that.” The podcast had no grand scheme. No grand idea. The conference was we just wanted to be with our friends. The Facebook group was an easy way to communicate. So, we’ve really been blessed with all the things that we’ve tried and we’ve just sort of gone where the energy takes us.
Wendy: So, you’d have to adapt it 2020-style but that’s what the big guys do is that they have a gathering like that that’s priced just to cover expenses. It’s not priced to make money. Sometimes, they even lose a little bit on it. But then, the purpose of that is to sell. They bring people together. Get people excited. Give them a taste of you. And then, you’re selling them into masterminds for programs like 15-grand programs, or 30-grand programs, or masterminds at five-grand. Like, I would suggest different levels because people are different places.
Wendy: But a group program where you’re workshopping is going to have great impact and that’s where you’re going to make your money.
Jim: And it’s not so much time for money. It’s sort of scalable.
Wendy: It’s scalable, right. And then, eventually, if you guys want to train people under you to handle certain things, then it’s even more scalable.
Jim: Got it. Cool. That’s awesome. Thanks.
Wendy: All right. So, we do need to begin to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to that amazing Facebook group that we do have. A lot of great engagement there. Wendy is in there. And so, she participates quite a bit in the group. Also, check us out on the Guild. In the Guild, go to maximumlawyer.com. Prices go up very soon so check us out.
Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?
Jim: There’s a Tim Ferriss episode that I’ve been listening to. All right, I’ve listened to it twice now. And just that the whole Tim Ferriss podcast, in and of itself, is fantastic. I’ve actually gone and re-read the transcript of this one episode. It’s not anything Earth-shattering. You know, sometimes things just hit you at the right time and you’re sort of struck by it. But the episode with Brad Feld, which is episode 448. You know, I love Tim’s podcast. They’re always like two hours long. I wish we could go long on some guests like we could with Wendy, for sure.
But this episode really is just sort of a real statement on mindset and how to adapt in the face of conflict. And it just struck me, during Corona time, of the hurdles of his. He is sort of a venture capitalist guy and he just had a lot of really good episodes. So, there a lot of good messages in his episode, so I’ll drop a link in the comments so that everyone can access that. But it’s 448, Brad Feld, of the Tim Ferriss podcast.
Tyson: Very cool.
All right, Wendy, we always ask our guest to give a tip or a hack. So, do you have a tip or hack for us?
Wendy: So, my tip is put COVID in that formula, the E + R = O. COVID is the event. You get to choose how you respond to it and that will determine the outcome for you. So, always go back to that. How do I respond to this? I get to pick.
Tyson: Very cool. I love it.
So, my tip of the week, and for the people in the Guild, I’m going to be able to actually show this to you, is something called Timeline 3D. And so, for those of you that need to put things on a timeline, like trial lawyers, you could even do this for estate planning. It’s very, very cool. It’s very interactive. And so, Timeline 3D is amazing. And I talked about this at OAJ last week. William Eadie invited me to speak. And I’ve talked about some tools you can use in trial. And this is something that you can use that’s really, really cool that, visually, it is extremely impactful. And you can show series of events in a very visually awesome way. And so, Timeline 3D is really, really awesome.
Wendy, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great episode. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you for coming on.
Jim: Thanks, Wendy.
Wendy: Thanks guys.
Tyson: Thank you.
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