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This week we have Viveca Hess as a guest on the podcast! As a recovering lawyer, Viveca had over a decade since creating her own law marketing agency to figure out a few stress-relieving, results-driven strategies to grow and streamline a lawyer's life and practice.
Studying people, human nature and how we communicate to build meaningful relationships is her passion, always has been. But, it wasn’t until several years after graduating from law school she owned up to her passion for blending creative story-crafting with the design and psychology of communication. She initiated, created and directed the marketing and communication efforts at her law firm where she worked for nearly a decade and realized she was smitten with a practice having little to do with the law.
She left that firm to launch her own online marketing company in 2010. Though she never looked back, her legal background lends itself well for insight to what lawyers, law firms, and a few other regulated or politically sensitive industries require to be protected while successfully promoted in an ever-evolving online sphere. This is part of her unique, odd, sometimes uncomfortable, and very happy character-building story.
Watch the recording here.
6:18 developing a personality to compete
7:00 breaking through walls to tell your story
11:55 real not ugly
15:00 LinkedIn profiles
18:32 LinkedIn before your website
Jim’s Hack: Give yourself some time alone to think.
Viveca’s Tip: You can go beyond 120 characters in your LinkedIn profile headline if you update it on your phone.
Tyson’s Tip: Put what you want to get done, or what you want to be regularly doing on your calendar.
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Run your law firm the right way.
This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.
Let's partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show.
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?
Jim: Oh, Tyson, it's a beautiful fall day. I'm loving this weather. We’ve got all our Halloween decorations up. I was at home yesterday working and the pool is still open. I have a ton of trees around our pool so I emptied out the pool three times of leaves but everything's good.
Tyson: Nice. So, we were in the pool last night. It's nice and warm. It feels fantastic. Amy keeps giving me crap because I we don't have the Halloween up and my job is to bring it up. So, I think tonight we're going to have to do that. So, we're behind the curve. We're usually way ahead when it comes to Halloween. We're behind but we'll get there, so.
Jim: Just for the record, at our house, we have a very clear delineation between weekend projects and weekday projects. So, one of the best ways I have of keeping my daughter at bay with all of her antics is to say, “That's a weekend project.” So, we did ours two Sundays ago.
Tyson: So, Halloween stuff. That's a complete weekend project, I'm guessing.
Jim: For sure. That took me about three hours, yeah.
Tyson: Yeah, it's not a short process.
All right. So, do you want to introduce our guest today?
Jim: Our guest today is Viveca Hess. And I'm really excited about having her on the show. She's a lawyer and she's also an expert in social media. She has an office in San Diego which, you know, is my happy place.
So, Viveca, welcome to the show.
Viveca: Thanks for having me.
Tyson: So, Viveca, tell us about your journey, your story, and how you got to where you are now.
Viveca: Sure. But just for the record, we're behind the curve too. And we're still surfing out here in California, just to let you know.
Tyson: Oh, nice. Now, you're just bragging.
Viveca: Yeah, I am. I sure am.
My journey. You know, I grew up in Sweden, to go way back. I moved over to California and decided to go to college here. And I didn't want to pay out of state tuition, so I decided I was going to work here in California for a year. Established that in-state residency. Taught skiing for a year. It turned into four years. I was ready for school. I went to college here. Went to law school here. And then, I have practiced for nearly eight years in estate planning, transactional work.
And when we hit 2008 - 2009, we started hitting some hard economic times here in the US and I suggested to the partners in the firm that we establish some sort of online presence. We had no website. Really, no online presence at that point at all. And so, one of the partners said, “Sure. Take it away.”
I hadn't really thought about myself doing that. You know, law school didn't teach us much about social media or, really, business development. So, I sort of stepped back from client interactions and I took on establishing that presence, a website and social media. And I realized that establishing any sort of resonance with people you haven't even had a face-to-face meeting with was something I really loved doing, just the psychology of those communications and, you know, how do you touch somebody? How do you reach somebody online?
And so, when the door started closing at that firm, a few years later - the founding partner decided it was time to retire, I pulled back and gave it some thought. And I started a marketing agency, an online marketing agency. And I had absolutely no clue what I was doing, of course, for the first period. So, learned a lot of my own there.
But, after a few years, after catering to a lot of different industries, I decided, “Okay. Time to really work with a group that I know pretty well” which are lawyers and law firms. And I also worked with some-- tended to work with the regulated industries because of my legal background, but also public agencies which, you know, I wore a very different hat there because that obviously wasn't for profit. That was really more of an educational and awareness building campaign. But here I am now working primarily with lawyers, law firms, and truth be told, the last few years, have focused very much on LinkedIn campaigns. And our training engagement seems to be going really well. So, that's part of my story. I could go on, but I'll let you guys have some more airtime here.
Jim: We appreciate that because sometimes we have guests who just sort of view us as a nuisance and just talk for a half hour straight. So, thank you for helping us [crosstalk].
Tyson: Well, you are-- Jim, to be fair, you are a little bit of a nuisance, okay? Just [inaudible 00:04:36]
Jim: All right. So, Viveca, take us back to 2008. I love to hear about what people did in the old days. I love this website called wayback time machine where you can go back and look at people's websites from whenever in periods of time. What did you do, once you got those marching orders?
Viveca: You know, the first thing we did was established a website. I had the luxury, with a fairly decent budget, to start up a website. And so, I gathered a team together who really did know what they were doing and I learned a lot from them. So, I have worked back then, which I still do now, I worked with the copy, and the positioning, and the branding, and the personality, you know, developing that, and they put it on a website.
And I remember back then, 2008, right? That's going back a ways. Those websites, we decided we're going to have a video embedded on the front -- you know, front and center - above the fold on that website. And the website, the video just lagged. You know, it was a few minutes. And then, it got static. And then, it was pixelated. And then you heard a few more words. It was a horrible experience. But, back then, you know, it wasn't streaming quite as smoothly.
But, you know, I think the thing that I fell in love with back then, which I still-- I mean, that's my passion point is really developing the personality, and what is that red thread? What is unique to an attorney? You guys might have noticed as well that it's a fairly competitive market to say the least. So, developing that personality, it's really the only thing you can compete on and blow everyone away.
I mean, we all have a story. And my job is to figure out what that story is. And, to whatever extent somebody feels comfortable sharing, you know, personal areas or personality, that's where I want to dig in. And that's where I feel that we should really focus on setting ourselves apart.
So, that's always been my strength. Always my passion. And I did too much of that while I was lawyering. And so, I'm glad I kind of transitioned and, you know, jump those tracks. I've been super happy about that. But I also get to work still with attorneys, and I know what their pain points are. And, you know, it always boils down to, almost all, is the time. You know, lack of time, lack of knowledge. I mean, those two go hand in hand, right?
Tyson: So, this is a perfect segue because that's what I wanted to ask you about was about just getting the law firm and the lawyer story down right. Because sometimes we like to put these walls and not show the bruises. And I think it's to a disadvantage. So, how do you break through those walls with these lawyers and really get them to tell their stories?
Viveca: Yeah. You know, a lot of times when-- for example, I'm just going to, you know, give you an example of how I work with attorneys. If, for example, we're looking at establishing a LinkedIn campaign, we have what I call initially just an interview call, a 45-minute call, and we dive in. I start with so sort of softball questions. You know, just basic demographics and start getting a feel for your audience. And, you know, some very basic questions that people are completely okay sharing. And, you know, everybody who's-- any attorney who's been practicing for any period of time will know their audience pretty well.
And what I try and do is sort of slowly get in. Now, I'm giving away my secret sauce to the world here. But we slowly go deeper and deeper. And so, we start with the audience demographics. We go into their business. And then, I start diving in towards the end, where they’ve warmed up, got to know each other and hopefully established some trust.
I start, quite frankly, mine. And then, I ask them, you know, “What's your backstory?” Just kind of like you guys did with me. You know, what's the backstory here? Where are you from? And then, you know, depending on what they say, I mean, there's no template as far as how that goes but I usually sense how deep they want to go or how comfortable they are with me or sharing certain pieces of information. And so, depending on the opening, there, we’ll go in a little bit deeper.
And for the most part, we’ve established enough trust where they can share, like you said, some of those bruises. You know, I tell them, I want to hear the top notes but, more importantly, I want to hear about your dips. You know, where were you? You know, how dark was it? And how did you pull through? How did you come out on the other end? And what did you learn from that?
And for the attorneys that are willing to share that, we can position them really, really well and in a way that’s human - where other humans can connect with them. I mean, they're not just connecting with clients or customers, or what have you. They're connecting with other human beings. And that's what I have to sort of always keep in mind. We're all just humans trying to get along and trying to survive this very turbulent time that we're really living in.
Tyson: I don't think, if you went on Twitter, you’d think that people were trying to get along though. It’s a different world.
Viveca: Well, I think that's part of this current era and environment’s bruise. You know, in retrospect, we'll look at this and say, in some situations, scenarios, political and otherwise, you know, how volatile it was. And there are lots of ups and downs.
And now, in these times, I think we're going to see the best and we're going to see the worst and you just have to ride through it. Yeah, it's some pretty troublesome times but there's going to be a light. Folks, there’s going to be a light at the end of the tunnel. We’ll come through. We'll be stronger. We've learned a lot. We've had to be creative.
I mean, look at us. We're having-- so, I'm having Zoom calls left and right. There are certain attorneys that are thriving, certain that are really hurting. But, I mean, we've all learned so much just from this period. So, we really have to try and glean whatever we can from this sort of-- yeah, tumultuous times that we're living in.
Jim: We appreciate you sharing some of your secret sauce. You'd be surprised how many people come on our show and they're like, “Well, there's this way to do things but I'm not going to tell you unless you subscribe to my course.” So, we appreciate that, Viveca.
Jim: So, I think the point you raised about showing the bruises and your vulnerabilities are important. You know, Tyson and I have a conference. And we've had two of them this year. We had to cancel it. But, in the first one, I gave a talk about how lawyers can adapt on YouTube, right? And that was nice. And everyone was like, “Yeah, that's sort of nice and pleasant.” But then, last year, I really talked about the time when I had to tell my wife, who’s now my law partner, that the firm was out of money because I had taken a contingency case and a pro bono case, and I hadn't been signing up cases, and we had no money. And so, that really resonated with the lawyers in the room much more than me prattling on about YouTube. So, can you talk a little bit about that?
Viveca: Yeah, I mean, specifically about the bruises and sort of the downsides. I mean, again, I think that-- I mean, that's what makes us human. All the highlights, all the spotlights, all the accolades and everything. That's great but, you know, you want to make sure that--
I usually tell people that I'm interviewing or that we're positioning, “You know, we want to keep it real, not ugly. We don't need to know all the details.” And most attorneys aren’t. You know, they don't want to share the most intimate aspects of that downfall. But, you know, give us a sense of how it felt and how did you pull yourself back up.
And I have a very, very dear friend who's a female litigator, up in Northern California, who’s now a coach. And, you know, she was working her tail off. She didn't have time for a life or, you know, a partner, kids, and all that. Time was ticking away. She was working hard in her practice as a litigator. And she was struck with breast cancer. And she went in for her chemotherapy sessions. You know, I always-- even, when I talk about, you know, it still touches me. But she said, “When I went in for my chemo treatments and realized that that felt like a vacation, it was time to shift gears.” And she did. And she's a very successful coach and consultant to attorneys now.
I mean, these are the kind of stories, you know, people want to hear this. And they know that lawyers aren't robots. They're not going about a perfect day, perfect family, you know, perfect environment setting. I mean, nobody who has real value to give has not hit hard times. That sounded a bit awkward but you get what I'm saying here is, you know, anybody who is of interest and of value, and to me, at least, you know, I know they've had hard times. I know they have a story and that's really what's more interesting than anything, I think.
Well, people resonate with that, you know. Everyone has a story. Everyone's had their downfalls. And that's what makes you more human, less robotic, less lawyerly, if you will, because, I mean, there's still sort of that stigma attached to an attorney, “Oh, my gosh, I'm going to pick up the phone and the first minute I'm going to get billed for who knows how much.” And, you know, it's just that whole facade that we have and that sort of that idea we have of attorneys. And making them more human, I think, is what people need more than ever, especially now, during these times.
Tyson: Yeah, like I think-- what I hear a lot is that “Oh, I'm not very interesting. People don't want to hear what I have to say.” That's just not true. I think we are way more interesting than people realize it is. And everyone's got a story. Even if you think you're the most boring, average person in the world, people want to hear about you. They really do. They want to hear about your background, your backstory, and all that.
I do want to shift gears a little bit because I want to talk about LinkedIn because I know you do the live show Lawyers Lunch and Launch. And like people like Ryan McKeen, he's like, “Hey, LinkedIn's a goldmine.” And so, will you talk a little bit about LinkedIn, and the advantages of LinkedIn, and a little bit about your show?
Viveca: I'd love to.
Yeah. So, LinkedIn is-- I mean, that is the channel where most attorneys have a presence, all right? And if you look at LinkedIn--
I just want to kind of go back real quick. You said, you know, “How do you resonate with these attorneys? Then, how do you get them to open up a little bit?” Well, the first thing I do is I share a little bit about my background, and some downfalls, and some trepidations and, you know, dips that I had. And when I do that, then then they feel more comfortable opening up. So, that's kind of one way I do that.
Okay, let's jump back into LinkedIn out here. So, everybody has a profile. Now, if you pull up-- at any given time, if you guys pull up 10 to 20 LinkedIn profiles, you will see the same stuff over and over. Now, I'm a little bit cynical because I deal with hundreds and hundreds of LinkedIn profiles, you know, over the years. But if you look at these profiles, I mean, under their-- maybe they have a better-- most likely they have the LinkedIn default consolation background, really sad. Maybe they have a thumbnail. If they don't have a thumbnail, come on, you're a human, being show your face. Okay, so maybe they have a thumbnail.
But then, what inevitably happens is the headline - that title, right? You’ve got 120 characters or so. And there's a little hack I'm going to give at the end here. But we have 120 characters to tell people what you do. And what happens is, nine out of 10 times, LinkedIn, by default, will pull up your most recent experience that you have listed and use that, that it'll automatically fill, they use that as the headline.
Okay. So, tell me what associate attorney, managing partner, partner of XYZ law firm. What does that tell me? Absolutely nothing. It's a title. It doesn't-- so, here are sort the three steps-- again, another secret sauce formula. But here's a three-step. So, I tell all my attorneys, “Tell me what you do, who you work with, and what is the unique value of working with you, specifically?” Those are the three parts. This headline is going to travel with your thumbnail all over LinkedIn, whether you comment, like, engage. Whatever you do. I mean, that's a takeaway. You have to change that headline because, otherwise, you are what? You're the default attorney. Who wants to be the default attorney? You're at the end of your runway, you're looking back going, “I was a default attorney? I don't think so.”
To me, you know, I feel very passionate about it, not that you could tell. I'm sure, over here that but-- but yeah, that's heartbreaking to me. I mean, don't do that. You know, have that reflect who you are offline in real life. You've worked really hard to build that reputation so make sure that's reflected properly on LinkedIn or whatever channel.
You know, LinkedIn is where you have that first initial opportunity to, you know, what you do, who you work with, what is the unique value and benefits you have to offer? And that's 120 characters. That's a lot to pack in there. So, take some time with that. You know, think through. And it's not an easy thing to come up with.
You know, what is unique about what I have to offer? And the mindset for most attorneys is it's a very competitive market and it's hard to get out of that rut, that thinking, that mindset, but everyone, again, has a story. And there's something very unique about either what you do or how you serve.
Think about it and put that into title because that's kind of what hits everybody first when they're on LinkedIn and people will go to LinkedIn. Nowadays, they're going to LinkedIn more than ever, but even pre-pandemic, they will go to LinkedIn before your website. And I know that's, that's heart crushing for some of the law firms that have spent tens of thousands of dollars on a web press, a website. But, as a matter of fact, if you optimize your LinkedIn profile, Google’s site will rank you more highly in a search than your website that you just spent, I know, a lot of money on, if it really is optimized.
But people go to your LinkedIn profile because they want to get a sense of who you are. Can I trust you? Can I retain you and know they're going to take care of my pain points or my desires, right? And they’re going to go there first because the bios of many-- not all, but of many websites - law firm websites, they sort of oftentimes feel a bit templated, you know. And sometimes there's a policy. If it's a big law firm, they have to follow a certain outline or policy on their bios. And that doesn't usually give people a really good sense of who you are. So, they'll go to your LinkedIn profile.
Just make sure that-- by analogy, I say, you know, you're not going to welcome somebody to your office with peeling paint, torn carpeting, broken furniture, right? You're not going to do that. So, when they come to your virtual office on LinkedIn, make sure that it looks good and that it represents who you are offline, in real life, that reputation you've built so hard, that you know, you spent so much time building.
Yeah, I do feel a little bit passionate about LinkedIn and sort of positioning but go ahead. You guys--
Tyson: Hey, Jimmy, I've got some good news for Blue Shark, I'm going to give them some props because I googled my name just now and you’ve got one, two-- three links plus three videos before you get to LinkedIn so that's good. The bad news for me is I need to work on my LinkedIn profile.
Viveca: Yeah. But it is on the first page, no doubt.
Tyson: Yeah, absolutely.
Viveca: You guys are pretty active online, so I'm not surprised that there's a lot there before LinkedIn. But, for the most part, attorneys don't have all that time to do. They don't have the savvy that you guys do to really position yourselves.
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Tyson: Good job, Jimmy.
Jim: All right.
So, Viveca, when most lawyers I know talk about LinkedIn, they bemoan the fact that every day spammers send them a connection request. And then, they say, “Hey, Viveca, I see that you and I both passed through Wichita, Kansas at one point in our lives, and I think it'd be a great opportunity for us to work together. What do you say?” And then, they just-- you know, that's just sort of LinkedIn overwhelm. What do you tell lawyers who like push back on whether or not spending time on LinkedIn is even worthwhile?
Viveca: Yeah. You know, I have sort of mixed feelings about it. I mean, there are all these bots, all these programs now which, of course, LinkedIn doesn't really approve of, I mean, that automates some of the messaging there. And that's something we have to be really careful about. You know, I'd say that using any sort of the automation tools out there indiscriminately, there's a lot to be said about automation in your processes but I always say the messaging must be personal. So, keep the messaging personal. The processes, you can, to a great extent, automate.
And I say-- I mean, every attorney knows their audience. They can paint, oftentimes, of a very vivid picture of their ideal client. Their avatar, if you will. And, you know, one of the first conversations we have, like I said in this interview call that I have with attorneys is, you know, “Describe to me your audience.” I mean, dive deeper and deeper in detail. Tell me, what do they do on their free time? What do they read? What are their trade journals? What are their passion points outside of their business? You know, whatever they're trying to help them with.
I mean, LinkedIn, once we dive into that pool of prospective clients for an attorney, you know, that's what we need to find. And, you know, thanks to things like Sales Navigator, which is sort of a premium level LinkedIn, you can get very, very granular. And so, I would push heavily for people that want to use LinkedIn, as their platform, to reach out to prospective clients, to take a look at Sales Navigator because the fact that it allows you to get very granular in your searches means that you're going to be more respectful of, you know, a niched, super niched, super focus group that you’re going to reach out to.
So, that's all part of the formula that goes into having sort of successful campaign is, let's not hit up thousands. You don't need thousands of clients, right? You don't even need hundreds of clients. Most of the attorneys I speak to would be ecstatic to have five to 10 new clients, you know, every month or every other month, depending on what kind of law they practice and can take on. And some of those cycles are much longer, obviously, than in certain practice areas.
But I say let's dive in. Let's look at a pool of 10 ideal clients. Let's use Sales Navigator to dive in. Let’s find some of the commonalities, the characteristics, that are sort of what you find for your region to be very successful, perfect clients. And then, we'll personalize the messaging to them. Then, we'll just-- we’ll hit up 10, 10 to 20, or so on a weekly basis. But I find that that's kind of what the sweet spot is.
And people will know right away. Especially now, we're all online, they will know immediately if it's all automated. I had somebody-- just a few months ago, there’s this is-- I mean, I use this as an example. Somebody hits me up and says, “Hey, I see you're really interested in real estate in New Zealand.” And I thought to myself, “Will you take a look at my profile? What? That profile says, “I'm interested in possibly purchasing real estate in New Zealand-- I mean, or-- you know, “I see we have some common acquaintances.” Really? Who? Why? What's the commonality? Tell me.
So, what I would say is stay away from, you know, the automation to thousands. Pick 10, and look at their profiles, and take a few minutes to say, “Here's what caught my attention about your profile. You know, here's how I serve and I think, you know, it might be a good match. Let's get on a call, you know.” And I wouldn't hit them up for a call, or a meeting, or anything right off the bat, but I build rapport to see if they're interested.
Yeah, don't hit up the hundreds and hundreds and thousands and use full blown automation. There is a place for automation. I will say that, but I would say, you know, just start off with 10 to 20 and actually look at their profile. Give them something that's personal and not a template. We're tired of being treated like templates and bots all over the place, so.
I mean, my inbox, my text, I get something every day now. I don't know where it comes from, but I just get hit up on many texts. And I never gave them permission. I'm really tired of that.
Tyson: Oh, me too. Especially with-- I'm getting hit by both sides of the presidential campaign. It's crazy to me and it is driving me freaking batty. I think [inaudible 00:26:04].
Viveca: I [inaudible 00:26:04] for my husband. It says, “Hi, Gordon.” I'm like, “Wait. First, I'm not Gordon. I'm-- [laughter]. [inaudible 00:26:13] here, you know? But yeah, both sides, right?
Tyson: Yeah, they're missing the mark.
All right. Well, I could talk to you all day [inaudible 00:26:21], but we do have to wrap things up. Before I do. I want to remind everyone to go to maxlawguild.com. We've got the link set up maxlawguild.com, if you want to join us in the Guild. A lot of great people there. Also, if you don't mind just taking a few seconds at the end of this episode to give us a five-star review on Apple iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, we would greatly appreciate it.
Jimbo, what's your hack of the week?
Jim: So, my hack of the week is to find some white space, some mental space. Give yourself some time alone. It could be outside, especially in this nice fall weather. It could just be sitting in your house and just thinking. I think that we are all running around, so often our phones are driving us crazy. We're getting way too many dopamine hits from all the dings, and pings, and all the messages that we get. And that if we can cut some of that stuff out, the space that will arise will give us the motivation and the ability to move forward. So, just try to find 10 or 15 minutes a day of just uninterrupted space where you don't have to do anything. You don't have to achieve anything. You just sort of be.
Tyson: Good advice, Jimbo.
Viveca, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack. Do you have a tip or hack for us?
Viveca: Yes, I do.
Once you're done with your 15-minute meditation, I totally agree with that. And I try and have 10 minutes every morning. But once you're done with that, you're ready to get going with your business day, here in your practice.
One of the things I talked about here and focused on was the headline of your LinkedIn profile. And you might have noticed that I said it's about 120 characters or so. And you can make it-- that's obviously desktop, when you're creating that headline, that's what you're limited to. But if, for some reason-- this is a tempered hack. Don't go crazy with it. But you can actually go beyond 120 characters if you create and update that headline on your mobile - on your phone. I'm not sure what the limit is but it's quite a bit more.
What I will say is there's a reason it's 120 characters. They want you to be concise. They like it to be short, easy to digest for any viewer. But if they're, you know, a few words that goes beyond 120 and it really just sort of, you know, optimizes and explains what you have to offer and, you know, what sets you apart, then go for it. You know, add those extra words in. But you can go beyond 120 characters, if you create it on your mobile. That said, don't go crazy with it. People want short, easy to digest and thoughtful, okay? So, that's my hack. I'm sure LinkedIn might not appreciate that, but they've allowed it. So, there's a reason for that, too.
Tyson: That's a great little hack. I like that. That's really good.
So, Jimbo, do you remember the question I kept asking Guild members yesterday, by chance, during our call? Is it on your calendar, right?
Tyson: So, we set these goals constantly. Okay, should we-- you know, I want to do this in the next 12 weeks, or I want to do this every day, or I want to do that. And then they don't put it on their calendar, so it never gets done. Or, at the end of whatever period it is, they only get part of it done.
So, my tip is to put it on your calendar. If you have something that you want to get done, or something that you want to be regularly be doing, put it on your calendar. For example, let's say you want to shoot videos every day, carve out 30 minutes, or 15 minutes, or 10 minutes, however long it takes you to shoot that video. Put it on your calendar every day. And then, shoot the damn video.
So, that is my tip of the week. Get it on the calendar.
Viveca, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a lot of fun. I learned a lot.
And Jimmy, you've waved your finger so go ahead.
Jim: We forgot to ask Viveca how people can get a hold of her.
Tyson: Oh, yes. Go for it.
Viveca: Yeah. Well, the best way, obviously, is to reach out to me on LinkedIn vivecahess V-I-V-E-C-A-H-E-S-S. And I am working-- if I might do sort of a shameful plug here. But I am working on putting together a mini-course. It’s sort of a pocket-type product, as I call it. It's called LinkedIn Leveraged Lawyers. And I'm putting sort of final touches. LinkedIn is rolling out new features all the time. So, hopefully, I'll have that completed in the next few weeks. And I'll be putting that out on LinkedIn as well. But feel free to reach out to me. I don't bill by the five-minute increments. Completely complimentary and very passionate conversation with you about how to position yourself on LinkedIn.
So, thanks so much, guys, for having me. I really appreciate it. And I'm going to go do my meditation now.
Tyson: I love it. Thank you--
Jim: Thank you, Viveca. Have a great week. Bye, guys.
Tyson: See ya.
Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.
Have a great week and catch you next time.
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