How Can Lawyers Plan For Life After Law? with Victoria Collier


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Have you thought about what you will do when it’s time to retire and leave your law firm? In this podcast episode, Jim and Tyson interview Victoria Collier, the founder and CEO of Quid Pro Quo. Victoria shares her journey in the legal industry, from being a paralegal in the military to starting and selling her own successful law firm. 

Tyson, Jim and Victoria discuss the mission of Quid Pro Quo, which is to guide others to finding their path to life after law. This mission encompasses the idea that you need to begin a career with an end in mind. Most attorneys only think about the next paycheck or next client, but don't think about where they will be at the end of the road. For many law firm owners, they will need to sell their business at some point. Victoria shares the idea that the best way to sell when the time comes is to stay low and stay small.

Victoria discusses the concept of the “owners box” in a law firm. This is the idea that a firm needs to be separate from the owner. Most times, it is harder to sell a firm if the owner is so closely tied to the business. Being closely tied comes with an owner being too involved or front facing. To move away from this, it is important to have people in between the owner and the business. For example, hiring people to answer phones and schedule appointments. This allows owners to not be chained to their desk. Ultimately, being in the owners box means being the visionary of where a law firm is going to go and building a team to help execute it.

There are a few things to consider when selling a law firm at retirement. One thing is ensuring your finances are in order and that you are in the right place to sell. Think about your profit margin and where you will be at retirement. If you don't have enough, you need to think about ways to increase revenue and decrease expenses. Another thing is ensuring you as the owner are a bit removed from the firm, through processes and systems. The whole firm should not revolve around the owner. It is important to maximize the system, processes and people to ensure a firm can run without an owner.

In many cases, there will be multiple partners of a law firm. Victoria talks about how to address an attorney who wants to be a partner. It is important to consider if this individual will add value to your firm and that they have the best intentions. Ask a potential partner why they want to join and how they will make the firm the best it can be.

Listen in to learn more!

Jim's Hack: Sign up for Gary Falkowitz masterclass on intake and client advocacy, which helps people fix their intake systems at

Victoria’s Tip:Start learning about leadership instead of management and how to be a great leader versus a manager.

Tysons Tip: Read “Getting Things Done” by David Allen. The book has a lot of practical tips to help get organized.

Episode Highlights:

  • 3:19 Victoria shares the mission of her company, Quid Pro Quo
  • 10:32 Being in the owner's box
  • 12:26 Considerations for selling a law firm
  • 23:49 Associates expressing interest in becoming partners
  • 27:23 Focus on developing leadership skills

Connect with Victoria:

🎥 Watch the full video on YouTube here.


Transcripts: How Can Lawyers Plan For Life After Law? with Victoria Collier

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Run your law firm the right way. The right way. This is the Maximum lawyer podcast. Podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Metrics. Let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:00:24) - Welcome back to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Speaker 3 (00:00:28) - And I'm Tyson Matrix. What's up?

Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - Jimmy Tyson's been excited because I've been excited recording all day today and here we are recording yet another episode of the show. We got a great expert and guest lined up for you guys today. Tyson, do you want to go ahead and introduce her?

Speaker 3 (00:00:42) - Absolutely. We have Victoria Collier. She's the founder and CEO of Quid Pro Quo. She's a seasoned entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in the legal industry. In addition to building and selling her own seven figure law firm, she has been coaching lawyers since 2008 on how to add value to their law firms. As the founder and CEO of Quid Pro Quo, it is her mission to guide others in finding their path to life after law.

Speaker 3 (00:01:11) - There is an art and a science to creating turnkey law offices, positioning to transition and selling for profit. Victoria holds certifications and exit planning and business valuations. Victoria, welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 (00:01:25) - Great, Thank you. Tyson and Jim, it's great to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:01:27) - It's great to have you here with us. And I remember now specifically the end of your bio is sort of what interested us the most. But before we get to the valuation of law firms and sort of exits, talk to us a little bit about your journey, about how you came to be in the legal world and sort of what brought you here.

Speaker 4 (00:01:47) - Absolutely. So I started off as a paralegal actually in the military. And then when I got out of the military, I was a paralegal in the private sector in south Georgia doing worker's compensation defense work. And I've always seemed to gravitate towards people with disabilities and assistance. And when I decided to go to law school, which I decided because I've always felt that if there was another position that was above the one I had, I just had to pursue it.

Speaker 4 (00:02:17) - And so as a paralegal, I was doing everything except going into court and getting the money that lawyers get versus paralegals. So I went to law school and when I was in law school, I assumed I would just go back to worker's compensation because I just loved it. However, I wasn't finding employment in that. And what drew me really more than anything was my experience as a nurse's aide in a nursing home before I even went in the Air Force. And that just always stuck with me, is helping those people who couldn't help themselves have a at least a quality of life, if not a better quality of life, than when I was there to serve them. And so I started my own law firm right out of law school doing elder law and estate planning, which was kind of a new area at the time. And so there weren't a whole lot of lawyers doing it that I could actually get a job with, even though I did clerk with one my senior year or my third year in law school and then opened my own practice.

Speaker 4 (00:03:17) - And I had that for 18 years before I sold it.

Speaker 3 (00:03:19) - So it's interesting about the mission of Quid Pro Quo is that it says the mission is to guide others in finding their path to life after law. And to me, it sounds like it's you need to begin with the end in mind is sort of what I got from it.

Speaker 4 (00:03:36) - Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:03:37) - Well, where does that come from? So like, I am curious, like like how did you come up with that? Because I think it's a it's a really wise philosophy.

Speaker 4 (00:03:45) - Well, I'm certainly not the first to coin begin with the end in mind. I think Dr. Stephen Covey did that. And, you know, I mean, most of us just jump in to what we think is our passion or our purpose or just something that we're skilled at and we don't think about the next day. We think about the next client. We think about the next paycheck. We think about maybe the next car or house, but we're not really thinking about that.

Speaker 4 (00:04:11) - There's a lifespan on our career and we really should look at what that is going to look like when we hit that. Whether that's like I was 50 when I saw my law firm, whether I'm 50, 72, 80, what does that look like? When we can do that, then we can live better today and transition better later.

Speaker 2 (00:04:33) - So to that point, when people are starting their firm and getting getting going, they're growing. They're sort of moving in the right direction. Are there things that people do at the outset or early part of their firm that screws up their ability to do what you say and transition out later on?

Speaker 4 (00:04:50) - I think there are things that can screw up their ability depending on what they want that result to look like at the end. And so one of the things that can screw up the ability to sell your law firm is staying small, staying so low. And coupled with that and I'm not saying that you shouldn't stay small or you shouldn't stay so low, but if you're going to, then you have to work extra hard to really build a great list that is hot that people who come in and want to buy at least your book of business can contain.

Speaker 4 (00:05:24) - Menu to maximize the list. But so many lawyers, they just focus on the current client and what they can do for them at that moment, and then they forget about them once the client has, you know, completed their services and we don't focus on that anymore. And they become, I wouldn't even say a cold list. I'd say a dead list. So there's a lot of different things. And that's one example.

Speaker 3 (00:05:46) - That's a really good point. And I think a lot of that you're absolutely right. I think people just forget about them. So it seems to me like there are some practice errors that are natural for selling. And I may just be completely wrong about that. Like, I don't hear a lot about injury firms selling. I hear about Morgan and Morgan coming into town and buying like 1 or 2 firms, but you don't really hear about a lot of the injury firms selling. But I do feel like I hear about like estate planning firm selling. So are there certain practice areas that are that you're able to really position for selling later on than others?

Speaker 4 (00:06:19) - I think that all types of law firms can be sold if they're set up like a business and not as a law practice.

Speaker 4 (00:06:28) - And so the more it feels like a business, operates like a business and is not dependent on the owner, then it doesn't matter what practice area you are in.

Speaker 3 (00:06:38) - Can I real quick and I am so sorry to cut you off, but I think I've really got to highlight what you just said because I think that a lot of people, the record may have sort of skipped for them because you just said something that was so profound, you know, that like not thinking about it as a law practice. Like I think that that is such a profound thing. So I just want to highlight that. I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but keep going. But I think it is such an important point.

Speaker 4 (00:07:03) - Anytime you want to tell me I'm profound, you can stop me at any moment. Um, so I would say that that's number one. But certainly there's other practice areas, specific practice areas that have the opportunity for repeat business off the same customers over and over and over again, and those are more sellable.

Speaker 4 (00:07:21) - So for example, estate planning, which is interesting because my firm was estate planning elder law, and I can see eight different opportunities with one particular client over the lifetime of a client. And yet I was speaking with a prospective buyer yesterday of an estate planning firm and he had the perspective of it's a one and done. And I was like, What kind of practice do you have? Because mine were like, I had eight opportunities. So I think the perspective too, and that's a whole nother topic. But to answer your question, I think estate planning, I think business planning, I think trademark, you know, because entrepreneurs, if you touch entrepreneurs and business owners in any way, they are always going to have issues, They're always going to have new ideas, they're always going to be building and going to the next thing, which takes legal guidance. I think immigration is a great one as well because one person does not immigrate to the United States, families immigrate to the United States. And so I think that's another great opportunity there as well.

Speaker 4 (00:08:23) - And there's many others. But I'd say estate planning, business, trademark and immigration, or my top four.

Speaker 2 (00:08:28) - When you said. That people don't think of it as a law firm, but as a business, that's a good thing. The other thing you said and aren't dependent on the owner. Can we spend some time talking about that concept? Because I think that's so important.

Speaker 4 (00:08:42) - Yes, absolutely. You know, one of the things I hear from buyers all the time is their concern is, well, what am I buying? Because when the owner leaves, what's left? Right. And so that's why the business has to be autonomous from the owner. And how do we do that? Well, we start by having someone else answer the phone and schedule our appointments. I can't tell you how many lawyers I speak with that say I can't trust someone else to decide if this is a good potential client for me or not. I have to be the one who determines that. Well, then you are just really chaining yourself to your desk and your office, and that is not a sellable business.

Speaker 4 (00:09:21) - So number one, at least be able to have a decision tree so that someone else can decide whether or not to put this person on your calendar. Secondarily, we have someone else start doing the production. If you want to do the sales, then have someone else do the production. Like an estate planning. That means someone else is drafting the documents. Like in P.I., someone else is drafting the pleadings, perhaps doing the discovery. Then I would say, have someone else do your sales for you, do your consultations. And I am of the philosophy. It doesn't even take a lawyer. In fact, it shouldn't be a lawyer who's doing your sales conversations because lawyers, we suck at that. And, you know, I mean, and we give it away. We give it all away. And that's the problem where lawyers will say, well, how can a non lawyer do it? I give so much legal advice in the consultation. In my opinion, you shouldn't be giving legal advice in the consultation.

Speaker 4 (00:10:12) - You shouldn't be giving legal advice until they've hired you. What you should be doing is identifying what is their problem and then offering solutions that are then described and explained and implemented after they've hired you. So there's those are huge mindset shifts for lawyers who become business people.

Speaker 3 (00:10:32) - So Jim and I have had multiple conversations now about the idea of the owner's box. And this was this this is something that we had introduced, but we had a guest on the podcast that said that he owns a law firm and he owns us, another company too. And he's a good friend of ours, but he's sort of he's said that he's sort of in the owner's box and Jim and I've talked about it and it he may he may have been able to make that work. But we find it very hard to believe that that is something that is doable to be in the owner's box and to not really have much to do with your law firm. So can you talk to that a little bit and give us your thoughts on that concept.

Speaker 4 (00:11:14) - I give you? Yeah, certainly my opinion on that. I am personally in the process of buying a law firm. Currently, it's about an hour and a half from where I'm based out of, and I don't ever intend to be in the lawyer box or the production box. I will be in the owner's box, which to me, what that means is I'm the visionary of where this law firm is going to go. I then hire competent, outstanding people to be able to put their skills into place to implement that vision. And so I would have a professional legal administrator who is managing the day to day operations of the firm. I would have a managing attorney, a lead attorney who supervising the production of the legal work that's going on. And I would have paralegals who's doing much of the actual work. So I think that you can have an owner who is the visionary, who's the CEO, who has the pulse of the business, the health of it by looking at weekly reports, if not daily reports.

Speaker 4 (00:12:15) - But I don't think you can be an owner and have complete hands off. If you want your business to be successful, you still have to be the one that motivates everyone else for your vision.

Speaker 2 (00:12:26) - You're listening to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. Our guest today, Victoria Collier. She helps law firms sell and be sold. So let's let's shift gears to that. What what does the process look like? Let's say. So right now I'm going to be 53 next in a couple of weeks. And let's say I want to get out in seven years. What should I be thinking about now and then seven years from now, what will I be thinking about?

Speaker 4 (00:12:48) - Right. So seven years from now, what I'd be thinking about is, number one, what do my finances look like? Because that's the first thing that people are going to look at is your top line revenue and your net. You can't take top line home. You can only take net home. So what's the profit margin? If we are skinny on the profit margin, then we need to look for ways to increase that, either by increasing revenue or by decreasing expenses.

Speaker 4 (00:13:12) - And we have to pay ourselves as the owner, not just taking draws from the bottom line because that all has to be equalized at some point because an owner is going to come in and they're going to replace you if you're doing any legal production whatsoever, you know, whether it's a. Or are legal production. So they've got to put some dollars and cents to that. So we need to make our finances look appropriate and accurate. The other is in line with finances is I love, love, love to see if you offer more than one product, one service. I'd like to see those broken out on the financial panels to so I can see what percentage of your revenue is based on each type of service. Because I may be heavy in one type of service and I might want to be supplementing my law firm. And that's the reason I'm buying your law firm with that other type of service. And if I can't tell if you're doing one of those or 100 of those, then your panels really aren't helping me make my decision to buy you.

Speaker 4 (00:14:15) - So we want to get our financial records as clean as possible. Secondarily, I would start looking at ways to, as I said before, the, you know, being autonomous from the firm, how can I make me irrelevant instead of, you know, the whole firm is me. So I would be looking for ways to do that. And we do that through systems and processes. We also do that through people. And to the extent we can leverage systems and processes and people, that's what you'd want to be looking at, is what's the best way to maximize that? So seven years from today, I'd be looking at those things and then I'd be evaluating your firm, I'd be doing a valuation. You need to get a valuation, and I wouldn't wait till you're ready to sell. I would get a valuation three years prior to you wanting to sell because at that point then you're asking yourself, kind of like when you sell a house, do I need to renovate my bathrooms and kitchens or are we good enough? And we only know if we're good enough, if we know what that value is and we know that, can we live on that in our life after law? Does my life after law will this support that?

Speaker 3 (00:15:18) - So something I've always wondered is, so you've gotten your books together, you've got your your client list together, you've gotten all these things together, you've got your systems and processes, and you're ready to say, I'm selling right? Where is the where do you find the market for this? I've always wondered that.

Speaker 4 (00:15:34) - Yeah, well, it's not like, you know, you put a for sale sign out front and many people don't because they're afraid that they'll lose their clients, they'll lose their referral sources and all that. So our business quid pro quo we are extremely active in. We tap people on the shoulder and we do calls, we do emails, we send direct mail. You can also list your firm on business listing services like buys, buy, sell, and that can be effective as well. But what has been most effective for us is I have a team of professionals that work for quid pro quo that we are just making calls all day long saying we represent a law firm that is for sale and we identified that you might be a great in a great position to acquire it. Would you like to have a talk? And you'd be surprised. It's there are a lot of people out there who are interested in acquiring firms. They just don't know how to find them. So, you know, for lack of a better way to say it, we become the matchmakers.

Speaker 2 (00:16:31) - So one of the great things about having a podcast is you get to explain all the dumb things you've done owning a law firm over the years, and one of the dumb things I've done probably is our marketing is built a lot around me, right? So I put out three YouTube videos a week. I do a live show where people can call and ask me immigration questions. We've gotten more of the team involved lately, but what would it look like? I mean, I assume that's going to be a hindrance to me selling or is there a way that I could get like a personal services contract after I leave and just sort of because I love the marketing stuff, I don't know if I'll ever get sick of that. I don't practice law that much anymore. So how do those things get structured?

Speaker 4 (00:17:10) - So I'll give three examples, if I may. And one is my own example was three years before I sold my law firm. I changed the law firm name and started using a trade name. And I also when we we were heavy into doing seminars for our clients to get clients in.

Speaker 4 (00:17:28) - And so with regard to that, in my seminars and the ones that I still presented, I had slides that would talk about every team member in the firm and how they help our clients would work through and with those team members. So I really started highlighting the team and that this is a firm that you're hiring, you're not hiring me. And nowhere on that slide as they progress through the production after they hired us, was I ever on any of those slides, you know, And so then it got to where I actually had other team members doing the seminars and then they would still go through the same slides and they would there was a slide with me and there then that just said, Founding attorney or managing attorney. So you've got to start focusing in your marketing on the team as a whole and what we as the firm do, because they're hiring a solution, ultimately they should be hiring a solution, not a person. Okay. And by extension of me hiring these individuals, I handpicked them. I hand trained them.

Speaker 4 (00:18:30) - They should be me. They just look different and maybe have a different accent. And so that's one of the messages we've just got to start getting out there. That's my first example. My second example is when I helped a lawyer by a P.I. criminal law firm. She didn't she wasn't even in that area. She was doing like worker's comp and Social Security. And so she's buying into an area. It was a married couple. They were on billboards everywhere in their small town. Everybody knew them. And so we had a three year plan of and they had commercials and everything. And I said, That's great. So over the next couple of years, you start appearing on the billboards with them, on the commercials with them, and then about a year and a half out, one of them leaves. So it's a married couple, and the one who was buying is a female. I said a year and a half in the guy gets off the billboard. The guy gets off the commercial because I want you to be aligned with the other person who looks like you.

Speaker 4 (00:19:27) - So then when that person fades, it's just you and that's what they're familiar with seeing. So there's strategies you have to put in place to do that. And now I can't remember the third example. So.

Speaker 3 (00:19:40) - You know, it's great because you just I was going to my question was going to be about how do we deal with that nowadays? Because it seems to conflict with everything is about personality marketing. It seems these days where you got a personality. So that that helps explain how that would that would be. So I'm going to shift to my next question, which is how one how do you how do you value these firms? So how do they like how do you come up with that actual valuation? And then how do the the companies that are actually the firms that are going to buy the firm, like how do they get the financing for it? Is it are they expected to pay for this at with cash? What are what are the different models that you can use to actually buy a different firm or banks willing to lend a bunch of money to buy these firms? So what are the options there? Sure.

Speaker 4 (00:20:26) - So as far as doing the valuation, I mean, it takes me about ten hours to do a valuation. So unfortunately, it's not as easy as what you would see like on listservs as far as well, It's just three times your revenue. Is that gross? Is that net? You know, what are we looking at here? So we do look at revenue for sure, but and then there's a baseline and then you add and subtract depending on, you know, how much this is running like an office versus a sole practitioner. How many people are on the list? How hot is the list? What is the market in your area? So, for example, a divorce firm, you know, what's the what's the marriage rate in your area? Because we know what the divorce rate is. So all lots of factors come into play. How many people actually come to your website organically or do you have automatic marketing and how often is your phone ringing? So, so much is taken into play and there's always a range and so you've got to be in that range.

Speaker 4 (00:21:23) - And so I would say that we look at the income, we look at the team, who's on the team is the owner necessary or not? We look at the marketing that you're doing and we look at the market itself and where you're located and of course the type of practice. There's certain types of practice that just yield higher, higher buying power than others. As far as your second question, how do buyers get funding for it? I will tell you old school that I'm trying to bust through the legal profession was essentially buyers thought that you had no other options and therefore weren't they benevolent by just paying you ten, 15, 20% of whatever trickles in over the next three years and they didn't even really mine your list. They're really just paying you off of what might call in based on who you had. And so that might still work for true sole practitioners. But for people who actually own real businesses, real law firms that act as a business, the first business I sold and the very last one that I've sold so far, they got lump sum upfront and each of the buyers had an SBA loan.

Speaker 4 (00:22:31) - And the great thing about an SBA loan is you only have to come up with 10% of your own. So $1 million law firm, you have to come up with $100,000, you know, and then you finance the rest of it and it's over a ten year period. And if there's real estate involved, you can extend that even further. So that helps from a cash flow perspective. Oftentimes, though, a seller will self finance some or all of it. And so that's also an option. And then there's what I don't like an arrangement is the earnout where essentially you just get paid a certain amount per year based on your continued efforts and the revenue that comes in. And I have never seen a situation on the buy side or the sell side where that actually fosters the incentive for the seller to stay. In fact, it wants them to get out even sooner than what the agreement was. So I don't I'm not a proponent of earnout, but it's often offered or suggested by a buyer.

Speaker 2 (00:23:27) - I have lots of different directions I'd like to go with this.

Speaker 2 (00:23:29) - Conversation. I think that I think people are really going to get a lot out of this. And I think we're going to have to do a follow up call or maybe invite you to one of our guild events. But in any event, where I want to go is this what are your thoughts on when the associate comes knocking and says they want to be a partner in the firm? I'd love to hear your reaction to that and.

Speaker 4 (00:23:49) - Yes, I would love to share that with you. And then there's a flip side to that as well that I'd like to share if we have time. And that is so when the associate comes knocking. I think that first and foremost I would welcome that as an owner, not because I want to add a partner. I may never want to add a partner, but what it shows me is that this person potentially has initiative. They see the value and the vision of the firm and they want to help take it further. So I want to maximize that whether this person becomes a partner or not.

Speaker 4 (00:24:19) - And so what I would want to do is I'd want to sit down with them and I would want to ask them about why do you want to be a partner? Is it because you want the prestigious name? Is it because you think it comes with more money? Or I mean, you want to take the firm in a different direction. The first step is always really dig into why is this important to that person? And then we can start making decisions around that because maybe they don't really want to be a partner. Maybe they just want their name on the door. Well, we can do that because, you know, maybe they want more money, but are they willing to put up the expenses? They probably don't want that. So it's really a discovery period. That's where I would start with that. But I'm open. I think every firm has opportunities is just we've got to be open to find out what's the what's the desire. But what happens more often is actually an owner presumes that their associates going to be their succession plan and they never even talk to the associate about it.

Speaker 4 (00:25:12) - And then they come to them and drop it in their lap saying, Hey, I'm ready to retire. Don't you want to take over?

Speaker 3 (00:25:17) - We see that a lot.

Speaker 4 (00:25:18) - Yeah. If I want my own firm, I would have done that already, you know? So that doesn't always work out that way.

Speaker 3 (00:25:23) - Oh, so interesting. I agree with you, Jim. I think we. We need to invite Victoria to a guild event.

Speaker 2 (00:25:28) - I think she'd be a great guest for for one of the masterminds. I think I think people would love to hear from her 100%.

Speaker 3 (00:25:35) - Very much So. Before we wrap things up, Victoria, how do people reach out to you if they want to get a hold of you?

Speaker 4 (00:25:40) - So the best way to reach out is through our website, Quid pro quo law. And certainly I have a private Facebook group called The Art of Buying and Selling Law Firms. And so I do encourage people to become a member of that.

Speaker 3 (00:25:54) - Very good. All right. So let's wrap things up before we do.

Speaker 3 (00:25:57) - Want to remind everyone to join our Facebook group, go to Facebook and search maximum lawyer and you'll be able to find us. Also, search quid pro quo. I'm sure you'll be able to find Victoria's group as well. And then if you want a high level conversation with our guild members, go to Max Law Guild. If you're interested in joining joining the Guild and make sure you also check out our YouTube channel, Subscribe there so you can get access to our videos. And while you're listening to the rest of this episode, why don't you head on over and give us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast and it helps spread the love. Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?

Speaker 2 (00:26:30) - I'm proud of a lot of the things we've done through Maximum lawyer Tyson, but one of the things I'm most proud of is the podcast series I did with Gary Falcone, where he basically beat it out of me that I had to be the one signing up every case. And of course, he was proven right.

Speaker 2 (00:26:42) - Well, Gary is offering and we my firm has signed up for a masterclass on intake and client advocacy. It's to help people fix their intake systems. And my team from intake has been going. They're having their next meeting again in a couple of weeks and it's just really good content, really good space for people to talk about all issues related to intake and conversion and I highly recommend it.

Speaker 3 (00:27:07) - Yeah, Gary's Gary's fantastic. One of my favorite people so very good. All right, Victoria, we always ask our guest to give a tip or hack of the week. It could be a podcast, could be a book, could be whatever you come up with. So what do you got for us?

Speaker 4 (00:27:23) - So what I would suggest is that people start learning about leadership instead of management, how to be a great leader versus manager. I hear over and over that people stay solos because they don't like managing people. And it's been my experience that when you become a great leader, then you don't have to manage.

Speaker 4 (00:27:39) - And as far as a book that loosely ties into that, a book I love is called Extreme Ownership, because until you can take extreme ownership of something, you cannot be a good leader. So that would be my recommendation.

Speaker 3 (00:27:52) - I like it, Jim, that maybe that's how you've been able to grow because you don't like managing and you've just been a good leader. I guess that must be what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:28:00) - We could use some more management around here, but I appreciate the compliment.

Speaker 3 (00:28:05) - You bet. All right. So my Tip of the week is a book. I hope I have not recommended it before, but even if I have not, it's a good book. It's Getting Things Done by David Allen and one of the guild members. I can't remember who it was. It might have been Brian Mittman recommended it and it's a fantastic book. It's a great follow up to the book A World Without Email by Cal Newport. But getting things done is a is a. Really good book and the subtitles The Art of Stress Free Productivity.

Speaker 3 (00:28:33) - There's a lot of real practical tips in there to help just getting organized. So I really do hope people check that out because it's a great book.

Speaker 2 (00:28:41) - But get get the audio version because he narrates it and he gives a lot of tidbits that aren't in the book.

Speaker 3 (00:28:46) - Oh, I did know that. I read the hard copy, but I'll have to now go back and listen to it. So. Very cool. All right, Victoria, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. This. Yeah, this is fantastic.

Speaker 4 (00:28:56) - Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:28:57) - Appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (00:29:01) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. Stay in contact with your host and to access more content. Go to maximum Have a great week and catch you next time.

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