Understanding Your Clients ML088
Categories: Podcast

In this episode, Jim and Tyson will go over the importance of understanding and listening to your clients and how to do it better, providing a better service and improving your marketing.


Listen more and talk less.

Getting to know your clients, their story, what they are going through will help you provide a better service and improve your ability to represent people and improve your marketing message and branding.

Break it down piece by piece the clients perspective on what they go through. Understand them, identify their problems and try to help them solve their problems. They are going to remember that, and it will make the difference in the future.

Some questions to get to know your client:
1. What made you go ahead and hire us?
2. What were you thinking about at the time that you were looking for an attorney?
3. What were the positive aspects you were looking for?
4. What were the negative aspects you were not looking for?
5. What was your prior experience with other lawyers?
6. What fears did you have when dealing with an attorney?
7. What made you decide to call?
8. What sealed the deal for you?
9. After you hired us were there things you were worried about?

“We break down our firm piece by piece to systematize it, do the same with your clients”

Max Law Con:
We are almost a month away! We are almost 60 people now!

Hacking’s Hack:
A book. Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen Hardcover – October 10, 2017.

Convey a message through a story.

Tyson’s Tip:
An App.
Employee Onboarding and Engagement App.

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Transcripts: Understanding Your Clients

Jim Hacking
I really was struck by how spending time with them and listening to them and really listening really made me understand what it is that they’re going through. And I think that if we can do that, as attorneys, I think that it’s going to improve our ability to represent people. And it’s going to help us in our marketing messages 10 times.

Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum liar, podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.

Jim Hacking
You’re back on the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.

Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson Beatrix with Jimmy,

Jim Hacking
Serena feeling well, my friend Tyson has taken it to the max today he has been under the weather. We have not been able to record this week. He’s has a sore throat. But he’s rallied. And he’s here with us today. So we’re excited.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, some of you may be happy that I may not talk as much as Blackcats. But some of you may not be. But I’ll try and contribute as much as I can. You want to talk about the topic of the week?

Jim Hacking
I know, I’ll be happier talking less. Yes. So this week’s topic stems from an incident and the experience that I had yesterday, actually. So I think a lot of our listeners know that within immigration, I have developed sort of a sub specialty, where I sue the immigration service for the delays that immigrants are having and getting their cases processed. In other words, cases that go well beyond the processing times, for whatever reason had been delayed by the immigration service. And there’s a program that the ACLU uncovered a while back called carp, which is the controlled application review and resolution program. And carp is basically an interagency program that has the purpose of trying to slow down immigration to the United States. For Muslims and people from Muslim countries. It’s been around since 2008, it started sort of towards the end of the Bush administration, and went all the way through the Obama administration. And now with President Trump, it’s back and stronger than ever. So I’ve had the fun experience. And I do mean that fun to this is really my favorite thing to do, of suing the immigration service now 150 times and oh, crap, right. Almost all those lawsuits are on behalf of Muslims, and usually men from Muslim countries. And lately, there’s been this little subset of people that I’ve been suing for. And they’re really my favorite ones of all. So I’m giving you all this background so that you’ll understand when I tell the part of the story and a little bit, there have been now six former Iraqi translators who came to the United States on something called a Special Immigrant Visa, in other words, when they were done helping us army and other armed forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, when they were able to get a green card, because it wasn’t safe for them anymore, to be back there. And so for whatever reason, immigration is refusing to allow them to get their citizenship, they gave them green cards, but they’re very reluctant to give them their citizenship. And some of these guys have really went out of their way to really protect people. I mean, they put themselves at risk their lives at risk, they put their families at risk by serving as translators for two or three or four years for the army. And for whatever reason, immigration is slow walking all their cases. So I found one of these a while back for a guy in San Antonio. And then a couple months ago, I met a guy named Mustafa and Mustafa has been waiting for his citizenship for four years. So he applied in April of 2014. And he could get no answers. He would do everything that everybody does. They call their senator, they call the USCIS ombudsman, they go down to the immigration service and try to get some answers. They never get any answers. And so we filed a lawsuit. They get 60 days to answer the lawsuit. Around the 40 a day, they said, Jim, we’re gonna bring him in for an interview. So we had an interview yesterday, and everything went well the officer was really respectful. He even thanked Mustafa for his service to the country for helping those soldiers. I mean, Tyson, you know, you were in the military. And I’m sure you can appreciate how important these guys are for them, because most of them told me this afterwards that he saved an American and that American got shot in the eye. And so that American got a Bronze Star. And when the American left Iraq, he he gave his bronze star to Mustafa.

Tyson Mutrux
So that’s incredible. I mean, all those guys are pretty incredible. And I know that’s not the topic of the day, but I mean, they’ve given up a lot I think, I’m not sure if you were planning on going this but while the just the one of the big issues with these interpreters is that the reason why a lot of them actually do want to come here other than being a great country is they risked a ton by doing this for the Americans. They had death threats, people killed their families, things like that. It’s it’s a very, very difficult position that they’ve been placed in and so for them to be denied. It’s kind of crazy, but anyway, that’s just kind of a side thing that for some cuz I know more about this topic than most probably people probably do, but it’s a big deal.

Jim Hacking
So typically Tyson and so everything got approved, he’s gonna get naturalized on Friday. So for the hacking law firm, that was a huge success, we were able to help this guy get his citizenship after waiting four years in basically two months time. So he’s happy. And so one thing I did that I don’t usually do, but I’m gonna start doing more of is, I told his story on video. Usually I write it up texturally, but he was so excited. I mean, he was very emotional. After he got approved, he called his wife, and told her and he was just ecstatic. And then he called his friends and his his brother in law. And he was just telling everybody, so let me shoot a quick video. And then usually, after I do these interviews, I hop back on the plane, and I come back to St. Louis. But this particular time, I had some time to kill, because I was going over to set prices, web company blue shark, to me with the team over there to talk about our website. And so my client Mustafa and his friend, the two of them, we filed suits for both of them, because they’re both translators. And they both been waiting for a really long time. The other guy has his interview tomorrow. And so they wanted to take me out to lunch, we went to a really nice lunch. And I bring all this up, because we really got into what it’s like to be delayed for four years. And they told me of the way that people treat them, they were worried that people thought they were bad people that the United States government had dirt on them, that it really was an emotional thing for them for the last four years. And we sat in that for the half hour while we were waiting for lunch, and I talked it through with them. And I really tried to probe and sort of really understand what it’s like to have that stigma of not being able to get your citizenship when you’ve done so much for the country that is sort of rejecting you. And so I’ve known that as a consequence of the delay. And I’ve hinted at it in the complaints, but by sitting there and talking to them, and hearing about how other people have the same problem, it really struck me that those people that coach attorneys and say that you really have to understand your clients, I thought I understood my clients, you know, I’m Muslim, they’re Muslim, but fact is their life is very, very different than mine. I’m a lawyer, I’m white, I’m a convert, you know, they’re, they’re from another country, they’re building a life. Here they are, they’re raising their kids in a foreign land, and they’re trying to get their citizenship. So I really was struck by how spending time with them and listening to them. And really listening really made me understand what it is that they’re going through. And I think that if we can do that, as attorneys, I think that it’s going to improve our ability to represent people. And it’s going to help us in our marketing messages. 10 times fold.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, and I think a lot of times, at least, you know, in my intimate, I tend to focus on the systems and and things like that on our end a little too much, just to make sure we get things done. But part of that though, I kind of part of partially do that too much. But first of all, we also do that, though is we do try to think about it from the clients perspective. So I think maybe a different way of thinking about it is rather than breaking it down system by system on your end, and maybe break it down piece by piece on your from your clients perspective on what they’re going through. So I mean, it sounds like you’ve done that with immigration. And we’ve done the same thing with sort of with our firm. That’s why we call it complete injury law. And the reason why we done that is because we sort of broke down piece by piece, the clients perspective on what they go through. And so most firms No longer will help with the property damage claim. But that was a huge pain point for our clients is having to deal with the property damage claim. And so what we’ve done is I found a guy in St. Louis, that on each on every auto accident case, it gets assigned out to him. And what he does, is he’ll evaluate their let’s say it’s the vehicles totaled, he’ll actually evaluate to see if they’re getting the full value for it. Or if they need repairs, he’s making sure that they’re getting the right repairs. So there’s things like that, that we’ve looked at, on our end to help solve some of those problems. I think it’s really important because it’s the clients are going to remember that stuff, and how easy you made it for them and other partners, you got to make sure you let them know what you’re doing. Because you may be a lot of work for your clients and they may not know it. So I think it’s important to note to let them know that as well. But I think it really is important that maybe you sit down you break down bit by bit by bit what your client is going through. I think it’s extremely important. I’ve heard

Jim Hacking
of sort of personal injury attorneys who deal with a lot of catastrophic injuries as sort of, you know, making a day in the life video but I think that being the attorney and actually going to their house and seeing how it is to live, how it is to be how it is to get moving. You know all the tasks that come across. I think it’s just so Telling, I think I’m going to need to do more of this, I think that I’ve been pretty superficial in tapping into what my clients are upset about. And sad about, I thought I understood it. But it wasn’t really until I sat with the two of them. And they were still emotional because one guy got approved, one guy’s waiting to get approved. So I was really able to sort of understand where they’re coming from. And so I think that they would work in pretty much any kind of field, I think, you know, taking over things like dealing with the adjuster on the car damage claim and those kinds of things, helps a lot. But I think that talking to about just sort of listening more and talking less, you know, I jumped into a console, I take my notes, I say, you need to do this, this, this and this, and either they do it or they don’t. And that’s about it. And I think that we probably need to do a whole lot more listening. Yeah,

Tyson Mutrux
I mean, it can be hard, though, you and I were talking before the call that you know, things can get busy and get stressed out. So it’s easy to forget that part of that nation, that the listening part of it. So random, that completely understandable. But maybe you sit down, you take a couple of minutes, here and there to really think about what they’re going through, you actually get a really good idea. I want to start interviewing my client as a marketing tool on what they’re going through. And I think that’d be a great thing to put on YouTube on Facebook, to show really what, what clients are going through, especially when dealing with insurance companies, because there are still people out there that think, oh, insurance companies always pay what they’re what they owe. And, you know, we’re just ambulance chaser chasers, yada, yada, yada. But I think if we were to put those on video, our client stories on video will change a lot of people’s minds.

Jim Hacking
Another thing we spent time talking about after we got sort of through the emotions of that was we talked about, and I’ve been asking people this more and more. What made you make the ultimate decision to hire us? What was the final straw that made you want to go ahead and hire us to sue the immigration service? What is it that you heard or learned that made it feasible for you to hire this attorney? You know, one lives in Virginia, one was in Baltimore to hire this attorney from St. Louis, to come do this. And, and again, this is something where I thought I knew the answer, because it has actually been a referral from one of the other Iraqi translators that I’ve handled. And he said that that helped. But really, it was when I saw a copy of the complaint that you filed, because then it all made sense to me why my case had been delayed so long, and it affected me because I realized it wasn’t about me, it was about this program more than anything that was causing my delays. So when I, when I read that it sort of unlocked something. And then that led us into a really great discussion about how can I change my message? Or be in places where translators might be? Who would want to be who’d be interested in what it is that we offer with a lawsuit?

Tyson Mutrux
Do you have any tips on getting started with how people can get started on kind of figuring out the pain points of their clients?

Jim Hacking
Yeah, I mean, I think that, obviously, one is involved with discussion. So I think that the best time to have that discussion is after you’ve gotten a good result for the clients, or, you know, there’s some people that call up people that don’t hire them and ask them, Why didn’t you hire us? But I think I think it’s sort of an ongoing thing. And you just sort of walked through the whole process, you know, what were you thinking about at the time that you were looking for an attorney? What were the positive aspects that you were looking for? What were the negative things you were looking for? To not have? I mean, what, what was your prior experience with other lawyers, you know, what fears did you have when dealing with an attorney? And then what sort of information did you learn that made you decide to call? You know, really breaking it down step by step? And then once you made the call, what sealed the deal for you? Or after you hired us? Were there things that you were worried about? Like, did you start to have concerns about the way we were handling the case? You know, and just sort of all the way up until the day of the decision? I think that if you can really get into that, the pulse of that, that I think that it goes a long way?

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. What about the attorneys is a really important one, I think, because there are a lot of people out there that have been burned by attorneys in ewallet. There are a lot of people out there that think they’ve been burned by attorneys, and they haven’t been. So they blame it. They blamed on the attorneys. And so I really think it’s important to ask those questions, just by asking those questions, you’re going to set yourself apart from other attorneys, but that is an interesting one year getting into their mindset. And I think asking those questions and putting those on video and that’s kind of also kind of change the story whenever people are looking for an attorney as well. I think that’s those are a lot of really good ones. But I really do think a way of doing it though, is is kind of breaking down Caligula saying like we break down our firm, Pisa, Pisa PISA to systemize it do the same thing on your clients and and maybe even walk through and you’re asking those questions at every single stage. You know, what were the things that they went through, for example, clients or injury clients. One of the big issues is if they don’t have health insurance, they’re getting bills in the mail all the time and people are threatening them and threatening to ding their credit, things like that. And those those are pain points other things They’re having to deal with that those are real life problems. And we can’t just ignore them, we have to address them in some manner. And I know, some actually some injury tracing to ignore those. They don’t care. But I think that that’s that’s to your detriment. If you’re doing that, I think you need to really start addressing those issues for your clients.

Jim Hacking
I think too, for me yesterday, what dawned on me was that most of it was an avatar client, he was a specific kind of client with a specific kind of problem, that I knew that since I had this extra time to spend with him, that if I could get into what he was thinking throughout the process, that that would allow me to help him and other people. So I think that if I were an attorney, and I was going to start engaging in this kind of behavior of talking to people after everything, and maybe during everything, I think that I would really look for people who are going to be able to convey to you what it is that they were thinking, and you’re interested in the dialogue and want to help you help other people because you certainly everyone has clients like that. And so that made it really easy for me to pull out the camera and just shoot that video with him because he was ecstatic. It was three minutes after he found out that he was going to get to be a US citizen on Friday. I walked him through on the video. The video is two minutes long, but I walked him through, you know, did some of it I did on the video, what are we thinking about before you hired us? How did you find us? Why did you hire us? What did we do for you? Are you excited about your results? And what advice you have for anybody in a similar situation? I mean, that was just perfect. And he just he ran with it. Um, he waved to the camera during the video. And I’ll tell you, most of my videos that I put on Facebook have about you know, maybe at the end of a week, they probably have about 300 views. This one already has 2500 views.

Tyson Mutrux
Whoa, that’s that’s awesome. Do you have any people that push back and they don’t want to be on video?

Jim Hacking
Oh, for sure. I have people. I have people who tell me when they hire me. Oh, Mr. Jim, I don’t want to be in any of your pictures. I don’t want to be in any of your marketing. People like are worried about me because they know how I am. But I’ll tell you yesterday, when was when I walked out of immigration because we got to do a selfie? I go Yeah, we do. Now now with that, while we have in our office of the pictures of all our happy clients. I mean, people are angling to get on there as quick as they can. So you know, that’s another thing too is you sort of set the tenor and the expectations that you’re you’re gonna be here one day to, you’re going to be up on that wall. And if we start doing this video, I think it’s just gonna be on steroids.

Tyson Mutrux
All right, you want to wrap things up?

Jim Hacking
Yeah, yeah, I do. So I have my hack of the weekend. And you might not be surprised. But a lot of the ideas that I am talking about in this episode came from a book that I started reading this week, it’s called Building a story brand, clarify your message. So customers will listen. And it’s really about getting to the story and about the history of story and how story really helps us convey complex ideas and messages to people. I mean, basically, I just told you all of the story of Mustafa and his experience with us, I think it’s a great book, I got it on Kindle for nine bucks. I’ve really enjoyed the parts that I’ve read and it really distill down how important it is for us to be able to convey our message through story.

Tyson Mutrux
Like 40, I get to my tip of the week, I kind of do things out of order this week, I guess. But I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group join there and get involved in discussion. It’s kind of crazy. I mean, I’ve not really been able to participate over the last few days. But I mean, there’s pictures, people just firing out questions and comments. And it’s really awesome. So get involved there. And when you please give us a five star review on iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts. Look at the numbers. It’s really weird. By far iTunes is the most that we get downloads for our podcasts. But it was one I’ve never heard of. I can’t remember it now. But it wasn’t even like stitcher was mainland. So it’s kind of interesting to see that. But anyways, go there. Give us a five star review. If you enjoy this podcast, which hopefully you do. My tip of the week is another app. And it’s called whisper wi ESP, and how this came about how I found that I we’ve been updating our office manual, and I put it all into OneNote, which I really like I’m sad, I haven’t hadn’t found OneNote. Until recently, I wanted to find an easy way to put that on our employees phones or mobile phones. And the way you can do that with Lisp is they’ve got some other functions on there. Pull those up. Now they have like a chat function and stuff like that. I don’t, I don’t use things like that we have slack for for communicating. It allows you to put your manuals, free Luiza, thank you. Police can have those on their phone at all times, which is kind of nice. So that’s the week Jimmy.

Jim Hacking
So I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention our upcoming Max law con 2018. We’re about almost a month away. enrollment continues and people are well over 60 people now. So when you count in the law students, we’re gonna hit 75 For sure. So we’ve probably got about 30 spots left. And we’re really excited about everyone who’s come And Jackson is going to be here for the entire conference. And we’re going to try to sprinkle him into some other sessions. We’re excited about that. I think everyone who’s come in is engaged and ready to rock and roll. Our friend John Fisher sending out a really nice message this week promoting it. If everybody could invite one friend, we’d fill it fast. I think that there’s a lot of lawyers who need to hear the message that’s going to be presented at Maxwell accounts. So do your friends a favor, it’s still really cheap at 299 for the two day conference, and we would love it if you guys could share that video. We’ve started doing some Facebook advertising, just trying to see what happens. And so spread the word, my friends will talk to you soon.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, just I think the value is tremendous. When you talk with the speakers, speakers that are going to be speaking and everybody I talked to they say, oh, you know, I expect that to be around 600 bucks. And we didn’t want to we’re not doing this to make money. We’re doing this to spread the word and spread the love. So get join us come out and St. Louis have a little fun. I’m even thinking about Jimmy after we do our little dinner thing, maybe taking some people out for some cigars or something. So if you’re into that kind of thing. So we’d love to do in St. Louis, we had a lot of fun. Have you with my buddy. Hope feel better? Thanks.

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