This week we have Saul Gruber as a guest on the podcast! Saul was a nationally renowned Trial Lawyer for 30 years with multiple offices in New Jersey and recently relocated to Florida and transitioned from practicing law to Trial Consulting. He formerly represented victims of Medical Negligence, Car Wrecks, Defective Products and earned a national reputation in representing and helping victims of Nursing Home Neglect.
After a rewarding career, Saul has now shifted his focus to helping other advocates reach the zenith in their client’s cases. According to Saul, “It is essential to tap into the jurors desires and fears as it relates to your client’s harms”. The Firm’s unique blend of experience, focus groups, rule development, and discovery and deposition strategies provide continued persuasive insight unmatched by other consulting groups.
Watch the recording here.
3:30 consulting and mentoring
4:35 you’re going to make a lot of mistakes
8:22 strategize to maximize
12:08 working with lawyers as clients
16:40 connecting with clients
18:39 looking through a lens
Jim’s Hack: Book: Matthew McConaughey – Greenlights
Saul’s Tip: If you want to be a trial lawyer and you want better settlements, what you need to do is try the case.
Tyson’s Tip: Reach out to your friends and see how they’re doing.
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Transcript: “Strategize to Maximize” w/ Saul Gruber
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I’m Tyson Mutrux. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim: Good morning, Tyson. How are you?
Tyson: Ah, I’m all right, man. We lost somebody in the legal community in St. Louis yesterday so it’s a little rough week, man. Otherwise, I’m okay. How about you?
Jim: You texted me last night and I was certainly sorry to hear that. Is that snow in your back–? In your–?
Tyson: No, yeah. You don’t have snow? There. Yeah, we have snow. Yeah.
Jim: Oh my gosh. No, we don’t. Luckily, we don’t have snow. That’s all I need is some snow right now.
Yeah, that was really sad about that lawyer. I’m sure more will be revealed as things go on. But, man, it’s a something to keep in mind.
Tyson: Yeah, I’ve got more details. I’m not going to share them though on the podcast. But, yeah, it’s just a tragic situation. He’s got kids and everything so just a rough, rough situation for everybody.
Anyway, do you want to get on to our guest?
Jim: I very much do. And I’m excited to have him on here. His name is Saul Gruber. He helps clients set up their cases for long-term success. And he’s also a trial consultant where he focuses on jury selection. He’s a great member of the group and we’re glad to have him.
Saul, welcome to the show.
Saul: Thanks, guys. I’m glad to come on after this depressing news about lawyer death and snow. Thank you for that wonderful welcome.
Tyson: Yeah. I’ll be honest with you. Last night, I was thinking about how I was going to do an intro this morning because it’s going to be a tough intro. So, sorry, Saul, that’s not how I had it planned in.
Saul: I’m practicing 32 years now so I get it. Unfortunately, I’ve watched people elevate themselves to judges and then have tragic– I mean, tragic deaths, we see it. Especially in our profession which is full of stress and especially right now. But the only good thing for me though, Tyson, is it’s about 81 degrees now here in Miami. And when I’m done with you guys, I’m going to go on the balcony, take a look at some of the water and the ocean and get back to work, so I have that helping me.
Tyson: Well, that’s not too bad. That’s a nice little venture off after the podcast.
But let’s get to your background though a little bit. Tell us how you got to where you are now.
Saul: Well, I practiced as a lawyer for about 30 years in New Jersey. And the funny thing is, one of the things that I love about the Maximum Law people is, I said, if I knew then what I’m learning from everybody now, I would be well retired and not even remotely thinking about trial consulting. And handled, basically, personal injury trials for the first five to seven years of my career. Then, went right into nursing home neglect and abuse cases.
And lucky enough with another lawyer, David Cohen, who was a partner at Stark & Stark, in New Jersey, we were the first really to handle these cases in New Jersey, built it up. And then, after some personal things I said, “You know what? I’ve had enough,” after about 30 years. Moved down to Miami.
And, actually, I’m lucky enough that I had a national practice. So, I have a bunch of lawyers who were asking me questions anyway. And I’m always giving them answers. And I thought to myself, “Well, why not?” And it’s really exploded, it’s been great. It’s a chance for me to do what a lot of for lawyers, what a lot of lawyers don’t have now is the mentor, that person who could say, “You know, I hear that you want to do it this way but that may not be the best way. Let’s look at maybe deposing three people and not 20 people. Or let’s look, at a nursing home case, deposing the administrator first, going over certain rules that’ll set up the rest of the litigation.”
And I know that a lot of people now are opening their own shop, don’t want to work for other people. And I get it from a business point of view. From a trial point of view, sadly, that creates other issues. When you don’t have somebody to help you. You don’t have somebody to talk to who’s been down there before. You don’t have somebody to go through the multiple evidence issues that, unless you’re trying cases, you’re never going to understand. And it’s blossomed. And I’m pretty excited about it that that we help a lot of different people in a lot of different ways.
Jim: Well, we definitely want to talk about that piece of thing, but I want to go back in time a little bit to when you and your partner were starting your nursing home litigation practice and then as you sort of grew it. Talk to us about the lessons learned, the advice that you can give. I know you’re great at sharing all the things that you’ve learned with our members in the group but, as we have you on the show today, talk to us about the things you learned from those early days.
Saul: You’re going to make a lot of mistakes. In fact, every day, you’re making a mistake. It’s just that simple. You can’t help it. How you react to that mistake and how you deal with that mistake and learn from it is, I think, really key. I mean, there’s nothing more frightening than the first year of practice arguing motions in court.
In New Jersey, you didn’t have the time to be there, right, so we’d have 150 lawyers packed in a courtroom. And when you’re the new lawyer, you’re sitting in the back, you’re reading your brief for the 87th time, forgetting that, since you wrote it, you really know what it means. And all you’re doing is praying that you go last, right? You don’t want to look stupid. You don’t want to look like an idiot. Then, as you get more experienced, you don’t open your briefcase until you’re called and you’re praying that you go first. It’s kind of the difference, as you get more experience. So, there’s nothing wrong with making a mistake. You’re going to do it. There’s nothing wrong with looking like an idiot. I’m telling you, right now, you’re going to look like an idiot. There’s not–
Tyson, you argue motions for personal injury. I know, Jim, you’re more immigration. Is there ever a week you’re not in court and walk out of court and saying to yourself, “Did I just say that? Did I actually just say that to that judge?”
Tyson: All the time.
Tyson: All the time.
Saul: So, it doesn’t matter. That doesn’t matter. You’re going to look stupid. You’re going to look like an idiot.
All that matters is that you’re prepared and you do everything you can to win. It doesn’t have to be pretty. I mean, look at me, I ain’t pretty. It doesn’t have to be pretty, it just has to be effective. That’s one of the things I learned early on, you know, drinking a lot of scotch and crying at night saying, “How can I do that?”
And there’s also nothing wrong with asking for help. You’re not a lesser person, if you call someone up who you know has done this for a long time and say to them, “Look, I’ve got a motion tomorrow or I’ve got a trial in a month, I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to do with this issue. Do you have five minutes to talk to me?” I would say most good lawyers are thrilled to death that you’re doing it and that you’re calling them, right, because we all like our egos stroked. We all like to think, “Oh, they’re calling me because I know what I’m doing.” But it really works and it really helps. So, that’s what I would start. From a litigation point of view, there’s nothing wrong with being wrong. There’s nothing wrong with reaching out.
Tyson: So, Saul, after 30-some years, you’d made a big change. You went from trying cases to, you know, Gruber Trial Consulting which is way different. I feel like you’ve sort of taken all the fun stuff up – not all of it. So, a lot of the fun stuff from trying cases and you do that now.
Tyson: What was that transition like?
Saul: It was scary. You know, I got divorced, which was a surprise to me, and it affected every aspect of my life. And my father got sick in Miami. And I decided, you know, I had to do something else, right? I couldn’t keep going in the direction I was going. That’s my own personal, you know, story.
And I and I came down here. And I said, “You know, I’m a pretty good trial lawyer. I’ve tried cases in a lot of states in the country. And I was chair of the AAJ (The American Association for Justices). That’s the main plain of trial bar, of their small firm section. I was chair of their nursing home litigation section so I kind of knew people.
And I thought, since I love to try cases and, more importantly, I love to look at how we can strategize to maximize recoveries, I said, “Why not?” And I reached out to a bunch of people that I knew. And at first, crickets, right? Nothing. Like that’s great, Saul, really happy for you. And I’m thinking to myself, “Well, they’re never going to pay me,” right? What’s the old adage – Why buy the cow if you get the milk for free? And I was already helping people on a regular basis. And I said, “Okay, let’s see how this happens.”
And then slowly but surely, people started to hire me. One good verdict. Another good verdict. And then, everybody just kind of jumped on. And then, we split. You know, I had to hire a couple of people, but I outsourced everything. I learned that from you guys. Why take on a huge burden of payroll if I can outsource it, and reduce it, and just have certain things done for me which really helped, by the way.
And then, slowly but surely, people started to hire me. We split our business into a couple of different sections which really helped because then we pinpointed different lawyers for different sections. And then, everything took off.
And what stinks is, before COVID, I literally was flying around. I was in a different trial or a different case every month, in a different part of the country which was kind of cool. Had great barbecue in Kansas City. Did some great wine tasting in Walla Walla, Washington during a trial, spent three weeks there for a trial and was able to do all sorts of things and I had no pressure.
Tyson, you’re right. I had fun. You know, focus grouping a case, and then framing the case, and then, stepping away and saying to the lawyer, “Have you thought about doing it this way?” And then, seeing somebody eyes say, “Not only did I not think about doing it that way, I would never have thought about that. That sounds great.” So, it’s been fun. It’s been a ride.
Jim: So, Saul, I turned 50 last month and I’ve gotten very introspective and thinking about the future. And I’m wondering, you know, putting aside your divorce and your dad getting sick, what were the mental objections that you had in your mind about just stopping practicing and shifting to consulting and going to Florida? Like, how did you process that?
Saul: It’s tough because when you’re a successful lawyer, I think you define yourself by your practice, right? You start to think, well, you know, this is what I am. You know, this is what I do. This is who I am. And this is everything that I am. And if I’m not doing that, then what am I? And that–
I still struggle with that daily. Like, I’ll be at a cocktail party and someone would say, “What do you do?” And I’m thinking to myself, “It’s a great question.” And I’m supposed to have that 10-second answer and I don’t. And I just tell people, “I help people. I help lawyers help people.” And then that someone will say to me, “What? Do you sue people or do you defend?” I said, “Oh, I’m sorry, I help people, so I would be suing.” I wouldn’t be defending, you know. And that gets me into a lot of trouble.
But it was hard because we define ourselves by being a lawyer, right? And why aren’t we defining ourselves by being a father? Why aren’t we defining ourselves by just helping people in our area, in our locale. You know, for a while there, I was, of course, Hannah’s dad and Alex’s dad and I didn’t like that. Now, I love it. But it was hard.
And my introspection was, “No. I’m not a lawyer. I’m someone who helps lawyers who need help, who want help, help their clients.” Once I came to grips with that, I’m loving life.
Tyson: Saul, I’m just– whenever you’re talking, you had me thinking about something. What are what are we, as attorneys, like as clients? Like, how have you–
And before you answer that, before you get to it, I guess, what have you learned over the last 30 years, before getting into consulting, that helped you deal with us as attorneys?
Saul: Because I was a trial lawyer, which I think is different than other lawyers, right. We are egomaniacs because you have to be. In order to stand up in a courtroom and look at, depending on what jurisdiction you’re in, 6, 8, 12 people, have someone put whatever is the most important thing in their world right now, in your hands, you have to be a complete egomaniac.
And, for 30 years, I was confident that my way was the only way. My way was the right way. I read some books, I got involved with Don Keenan and The Reptile, took some things from that. And it wasn’t until the last three or four years of my career that I read all the books. And I think it was before Keith Mitnik’s book came out. And I started saying, “Well, this is pretty interesting. Let me incorporate this.” And once I opened up my mind to the idea that I don’t know everything, I just became not only a much better person but a much better lawyer.
And the problem I have now is 75% of my clients are like I was. And so, when you start saying, when you’re getting ready to try a case, which is a very stressful time.
Jim, you have a different stress, I think, because you really have people’s lives in your hands. You know, you’re almost like a criminal lawyer that way. I don’t know that I want that.
Tyson, you’re a little bit more of like me where, you know, you’ve got that five-day trial. You’re living, you’re breathing that case. That is all you’re about. And it’s a stressful time. And if you have somebody else telling you, “Don’t do it that way. Do it this way.” You want to rip their head off.
Tyson: No question.
Saul: And that’s–
Tyson: –shut the hell up.
Tyson: Shut up. Yeah.
Saul: And so, I’ve learned to pick my battles and to pick the times I say, “I really don’t think you should do it that way. Let’s try it my way.”
And, to be honest with you, the best thing that we’ve done that I got a little bit from my practice and a little bit from you guys is, “Okay, let’s videotape what we’re doing now. And let’s watch it after dinner tonight.” So, like I’ll fly in for three or four days to a client and we’ll work three or four days on their case. We’ll break it down completely. And the idea is I break down what you think your case is about. We break it down to its core and build it back up. So, I will videotape a lot of our conversations, not for posterity, but so we can watch it after dinner and say, “Now, let’s try it this way.” And then we compare the videotapes. And it’s incredible the eyes that open up.
We just had a case in Ohio that went to trial. Unfortunately, we got a bad verdict in a medical malpractice case in Dayton, Ohio. And I will tell you, the lawyers that I work with tried a hell of a case. And I’m still pissed that we lost. You know, sometimes you think you should lose. We should not have lost. We tore that case apart. We built it back up.
We did a focus group at the beginning of the week and a focus group at the end of the week to compare what we did. And the focus group at the end of the week loved the case and all of our changes. And it was just a tough jury selection which is always tough now. But videotaping yourself doing something is really good.
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Jim: All right, Saul–
Tyson: You nailed it, Jimmy. You nailed it.
Jim: So, not everybody who listens to our show, obviously, are trial attorneys but I’m wondering we all have to connect with people. And I’m wondering, when you talk to your clients about connecting with potential jurors. So, this is a petri dish of communication where you have to do it in a very condensed, very quick time period. What advice do you give to maybe even just younger trial lawyers about how to connect best with other people?
Saul: No one cares about you as the lawyer. No one will ever care about you as the lawyer, right? It doesn’t matter who we’re talking to. They don’t give a rat’s you know what about us. Therefore, we’ve got to listen. No matter, whether we’re talking to a new client, whether we’re talking to a juror, we have to listen to see what they really care about and what they really, truly want. And then, we have to figure out a way to speak to them in a way that that they can hear us, right, about how we can help them. Not about how they can help us. Not about, “Well, you know, I’ve handled cases like this before. I’ve handled a thousand cases and let me tell you what I’ve done for other people.” They don’t care what you’ve done for other people. All they care about is that you’re listening to them and you’re there to help them and talk to them. That’s it.
So, if you have a college professor sitting in front of you, you’re going to listen, but when you talk to them you’re going to use certain words, probably, that they’re going to love to hear. If you have someone who dropped out of high school, you’re going to listen to them and you’re going to speak to them in a way that they want to hear. And that’s step one.
Step two is, when you’re talking to somebody, you have to make an instant judgment about what lens they’re using in looking and listening to anything you say to them. I think our instant judgments are much better than our well thought out judgments. You know, I have this theory that what I can figure out in the first five seconds and what my gut tells me is probably 80% to 90% on point. And if I research somebody and I get older voting records, and I do all of that, I’m probably 50% on point because I’m overthinking it. When you’re looking at somebody and you’re talking to them, you, a lot of times, can start picking up on exactly what their lens is. And when I say lens, right, we all look at things through our own perceptions, our own biases.
I saw people on Facebook, the other day, were arguing back and forth whether the media was biased. Of course, the media is biased. We’re all biased. You can’t be a human being and not have a bias. It’s impossible. We’re people. And we look at things through a lens. So, you’ve got to know the lens of the person you’re talking to and talk to them through that lens. That’s when you can really– at least, I think, that’s when you can connect, that’s when you can persuade, and that’s when you’re not talking them into doing something that you want. You’re arming them with information that makes them want to do something that you want. And I think it’s a big difference.
So, if I’m a younger lawyer, I don’t ever– I mean, right now, I don’t ever want to convince anybody I’m right. I have no idea if I’m right. I see you on Facebook all the time, on the Maximum– and Tyson on the personal injury group that you have. If one more person says, “I don’t believe I’m getting good settlements, is there a book I can read that tells me how to make a settlement demand?” Now, I know there are great books out there. And, Tyson, you know my answer because it’s the same answer every time. If you want to get better settlements, you’ve got to get more verdicts. It’s just that simple. Because the people that you’re getting the settlement from are looking at you, they’re getting information about you and they’re saying, “You’re not willing to try the case. Therefore, we’re not going to give you the same settlement we’ll give Tyson or we’ll give Jon Fisher or we’ll give me.” You know, I never had to– in one practice, I never had to say, “Well, if you don’t do this, we’ll try the case.” That was never going to be an issue. That’s why I’m there.
And I think that’s what I would say to younger lawyers. You’ve got to understand the lens. The insurance company doesn’t care about any threat that you possibly make. All they care about is their money, and their job, and what risk you put them at, so just remember that.
Tyson: Risk is big. That’s the big one. You just you said the big word. Risk is the big one. You’ve got to create a lot of risk for them to begin making settlement.
Saul: You know, it’s so funny you say that. Every time I look at an opening or I put a plan together for a law firm, everything that we do is aimed at creating risk for the other side, right, because that’s what they’re doing for us. And when you start getting into these arguments– and, Jim, I don’t know how immigration is. I just don’t know. But I can tell you, with us, we get into fights over where a deposition’s going to take place, and motions are being filed, and people are getting upset. They’re taking it personally. ”There’s no way we’re doing that. We’re not going there.”
And I’m thinking when I see that, “Have you all lost your mind? Just go wherever they want you to go. They’ve got the money, right?” They’ve got the money. So, if they say to me, “Well, we want to do the dep’s in our office.” God love you. Give me some coffee, a donut. It wouldn’t kill anybody. Let’s go to your office. Let’s do a deposition.” If that means I drive 40 minutes, who gives a crap, just do it. They’re the people that control the purse strings, right? So why are we fighting about all these things? Embrace it.
And the other thing is– this is just– as I’m saying it, anytime a doctor or a nursing home wants to do their deposition in their office say “thank you” and just go. Make sure you have your iPhone or your iPad and you’re just taking pictures everywhere as you’re walking. You don’t want to get anybody’s personal stuff, obviously, but just say thank you.
I cannot tell you how many trials or even video depositions I’ve had where I said, “Doctor, I noticed you have a book there that says, The Legal Ramifications of Soft Tissue Injury, can you pull that down? Let’s take a look at that.” You know, now, you’re knocking them off their pedestal because they have legal books in there as they’re in their white lab coat. So, don’t fight about it because it’s inconvenient for you. Embrace it. Go for it. And stop fighting.
Tyson: So, let me ask you something. I’ve thought about this quite a bit and I want to get your opinion on this. So, the way you market Gruber Trial Consulting and trying cases, I feel like you market in a very similar way. Whenever you are trying a case, you’re marketing is what you’re doing. I mean, you’re trying to make a sale, right? So, tell me about that. Well, tell me your thoughts on that.
Saul: Everything we do is–
I mean, I always used to laugh. I used to say to my clients, when they would come in, and they would talk to me, I’d say, “Listen, I’m no different than a plumber,” right? When you call my office, you’ve got to have a good experience in that phone call. You’ve got to get what you need. You’ve got to get whatever gratification you need you have to get. You just do. And that’s where it all starts. And then you keep going down.
When you’re trying a case, you know, you can’t piss people off. You, oh my– and I don’t want to say– you can’t be phony either though, right, because people know a phony from a mile away. We just do. That’s our gut. So, you’re always on. You’re always selling yourself but you’re not selling yourself in an obnoxious way. That’s the key.
If you look at Mark Lanier, if you look at Tony Romanucci from Chicago, if you look at– God, I can go through a hundred lawyers that I’m friends with all over the country. They’re so humble yet they’re not, right. They’re so smart but they never tell you how smart they are. They’re able to look at you and engage you with a smile that disarms you and then talk to you and you feel like you’re the only person they’re talking to. That’s pretty powerful. That is really, really powerful. And that’s what we have to be doing at all times.
Tyson: I love it.
All right. So, we are at time, so I want to begin to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group. There’s great people like Saul in the Facebook group so get involved there. If you’re interested in the Guild, you can go to maxlawguild.com. And then, as you’re listening to our tips and hacks, at the end of this episode, give us a five-star review, if you don’t mind, on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
So, Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
Jim: So, we talk a lot about, you know, giving up a practice area or a particular case type that people sometimes need to just let go of. And I was thinking about this, when I was listening to a great recent episode of the Tim Ferriss podcast. Matthew McConaughey has a new book out called Greenlights and he’s just about to–
Tyson: Damn you, Jimmy. That was my tip of the week. Dang it.
All right, keep going. I’ll come up with another one.
Jim: He’s on every podcast known to man right now talking about his book. He told a story that I listened to on Sunday that really struck me. So, he had gotten in this rut of doing rom-coms, romantic comedies over and over, and he kept playing the same role over and over, and he decided that he did not want to do that anymore. And so, he told his agent that you know, these are these are bringing in between $5 and $8 million every time he did one. And that was a zombie walk for him. He didn’t really have to think much or stretch much as an actor. And he wanted to do more dramas and nobody would ever send him any drama. So, he told his agent, “I’m not doing ‘em anymore. Don’t even send them to me.”
So, he went home and talked to his wife. She was on board. And they just made a decision to not take any more romantic comedies. And this went on. He didn’t sign any deals for about a year and a half. And then, at about the 21-month mark, he was getting a little wiggy and he got an offer to do a movie for 10 million bucks, another romantic comedy, and he decided not to do it. He told his agent, “No. I don’t want to do it.” So, then they came back and offered $12.5 million and he was like, “Oh, no. I don’t think so.” So, he turned it down again. Then, they said $15 million. So, this was going to be a couple months of work. He was going to make $15 million.
He said, “At that point, that script looked a whole lot better” and it was very, very tempting for him to take that role. And he ultimately decided, after much back and forth, talking to his wife talking to his agent, they turned it down one more time. And he said, that was the moment that the industry knew he was serious. Everybody found out that he turned down $15 million to do this role. And it was at that point that he started getting dramatic roles sent to his agent.
So, it took two years for him to sort of cleanse everyone’s palate of him doing romantic comedies. He had to stick to his guns and turn down that last big paycheck. And just like a year later, he found the funding to do Dallas Buyers Club and that’s what he won his Academy Award for. So, it was just a great story. The whole episode’s great.
If you can hear him anywhere, he’s much more thoughtful than I ever thought he was, especially after Dazed and Confused. So, it’s good to listen to him.
Tyson: It is such a good book. It is out there. So, just so you know, if you listen– actually, listen to it. Don’t read it. Listen to it because it’s him reading it. And that guy is a maniac. But it is such a good book. It really is. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
All right, Saul, so you know the routine. Do you have a tip or a hack for us?
Saul: Yeah, I actually do. And I want to jump right off what Jim just said. And, in fact, I have a YouTube channel where I have weekly drops, trial tips of the week, or nursing home minute tips. And I just recorded one which said exactly what Jim just said, if you want to be a trial lawyer, and you want better settlements, what you need to do is try the case. When they offer you just enough money that it tempts your client, talk to your client. Pick the case and try it. Take your five worst cases that you would settle for costs and invest some money and try them. It doesn’t matter if you lose, you could try five personal injury cases in a row. Lose them all. And your settlements will start going through the roof because now you’re on that list of people saying, “Wow! He’ll try the case or she will try the case. We better settle the case.”
So, exactly what Jim just said. Exactly what Alright, Alright, Alright, man did. You do. As the lawyer, you say no. When, if it’s a criminal case and they want to put your person in for a certain amount of years, say, “No. We’re going to try the case. We’re going to take a chance with what the jury says” because settlements are not in anticipation of what a jury will do ever. Settlements are what will insurance company give you. That’s what a settlement is. Don’t confuse yourself and think a good settlement is what a verdict will do. No, it isn’t because you’re either going to win big or you’re going to lose from a trial. But just go out and do it. And you’re going to become a better lawyer. And you’re going to be better for your clients if you do it.
Tyson: Saul, fun fact for you. Matthew McConaughey’s first sentence – first line on a set was “Alright, Alright, Alright” and he ad-libbed it and came up with it at the last second, just so you know, and that that snowballed into where it is today so that’s kind of crazy.
Saul: If I knew we were going there. I would’ve had that T-shirt on for this podcast.
Tyson: Man, it’s a good book.
All right. Well, I’m going to bookend this then with sort of how we started on a somber note, but I’m not going to end on a somber note. I’m just going to say, reach out to your friends and see how they’re doing. The depression has been real since the pandemic began so reach out to your friend. If you’ve not talked to someone a long time, reach out to them, check in on them, see how they’re doing because you never know whenever they might need you.
All right, Saul. Man, this is great. Thank you so much. It’s been great getting to know you.
Saul: Thanks for having me, guys.
Jim: Thanks, Saul.
Tyson: Have a good one.
Saul: Thanks, guys.
Tyson: See ya.
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