In this episode, Jim & Tyson interview Josh Goldstein an Immigration Attorney and owner at Law Offices of Joshua L. Goldstein, PC. Listen as they discuss about his business and how is it like to run multiple offices; intake, staff, marketing and more!
Register to MaxLawCon19, June 6 and 7 in St.Louis.
- Josh finally planned a date night with his wife after Tyson’s tip about it in the last MaxLawCon18
- Josh’s history
- Big Law job after Law School; hated it, no control over it
- Pro bono made him realize he wanted to open his own shop
- Learned a lot from other solo lawyers in his first office building
- Josh as an Immigration Lawyer
- Picky about the cases hi takes on
- Scaling and processes
- Each case is different
- Associates and paralegals
- Josh’s firm in 10 years
- Growing pains
- High volume of calls; call center
- Intake problems
- Train your own staff for intake
- Intake success examples
- Immigration, Public Interest and Business
- Running offices in different places in the US, Los Angeles and Boston
- Good staff
- A lot of travelling
- Advice to people
- Accept the fact that it is not gonna work as well when you are not there
- Intake processes
- Marketing for multiple locations
- Running offices remotely
- What would Josh do differently?
- Initial marketing to make the phone ring
- Took California Bar exam
- Had to go back and learn all again
- Running the firm and growing the practice
- Love practicing Law
- The job: running the business
- The love: practicing love
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Transcripts: Running a Law Business with Multiple Offices ft. Josh Goldstein
What I think is challenging is to maintain the same hustle. You know, somebody calls up the phone ring, the intake process, again, back to the intake, but the certain hustled factor that was much different when I was standing there and the phone was ringing, then when the way it works now, and I think, you know, it’s a challenge, it’s a challenge. And there are firms that do this, and they have locations all over the place. And then there’s a whole marketing component to you know, how do you market for multiple locations?
Run your law firm, the right away. This is the maximum liar, podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking, and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.
Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
And I’m pacing matrix Jimmy, this is the second time today we are recording how’re you doing?
You’re done. I’m excited. It is the second time we’re trying to bank some episodes because we know that we don’t ever want to miss. And we’ve been going strong for these, I don’t know how many episodes and so we were down to our actually we’re down to no more. So we had the record one this morning for this week, and a guest on this episode will be on next week. And then we’re gonna have some in the bank. They’re edited in January,
I like it with this guest I’m gonna tease him a little bit with this guest it’s going to be a good one, I think, an exciting one to talk to sort of end the year and to talk to so before Jimmy, we talk about who our guest is, I want to remind everyone, by the time this episode hits, we will be in our early bird registration phase until the end of the year. Actually, this is the super duper early bird is where we’re at. So you want to talk a little bit about the conference. Before we get into our interview. Yeah, the conference is
June 6 and seventh in St. Louis, it’s gonna shape up to be even better than last year, we are anticipating more attendees and the bigger space. And we already have some great commitments from some of our speakers, which we’ll be sharing shortly. But if you missed the class sale last week, and you’re going to be able to at least take advantage of the early bird special and it’s the year end and you’re trying to get time period 2019 expenses on the year 2018 books a good way to do it would be to go ahead and register for next June’s conference today.
Absolutely. All right. Do you want to introduce our guests of the week?
Well, I don’t know that we’ve ever had another immigration lawyer on the show, which is interesting, because we’ve had so many personal injury lawyers on the show. And mostly that’s because I did not want to share the wealth. But we have come across and become good friends with such a good immigration lawyer and such a good guy came to Maxwell Con last year on very short notice he was one of the last ones to register. And he has a really interesting approach to the practice of law that I think that our listeners are going to be able to get a lot out of his name is Josh Goldstein. And Josh, welcome to the show.
Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on. I’m a big fan of the podcast and the conference. And both of you personally, and it’s a great honor. Josh, I’m not going to start the way I normally do. I’m not going to ask you what you do. And I’m not going to ask you to introduce yourself. I’m going to put you on the spot. Have you scheduled your date night with your wife? And if you have not, why not? Boy, am I lucky that the planets have lined up just perfectly. Yes, I have. We have a date on Saturday night and we lined up a babysitter, I just got a text from my wife, probably two minutes ago. So save. By that, just some backstory on that one of the tips that Tyson gave out at the last conference, or maybe just to me personally, and it was a really simple idea, but a really good one. And that is to schedule a date night with your wife with your significant other for once a week. And just try to you know, get some time with the two of you together. And if you do that regularly, you know, it’s great because you get caught up in the grind of your life and childcare and work and the daily grind can be really difficult. And it’s nice to set aside some time instead of just, you know, if you plan on doing it once a week or every other week or as often as you regularly can you get a lot of benefit on that. It’s nice to clear your head and just sit down with your wife. And so yes, we got it on Saturday night. We’re done. We always
like it when our listeners take action on our tips and hacks. And that’s a good one for sure. Josh, tell our listeners a little bit about your history post law school or law school and then how you got into immigration and where things
so when I finished law school, I got a job in big law. Worked at a large corporate law firm in New York. And then in Boston, and I was really miserable, I really hated it. And then at some point, after a couple years, I was looking to make a switch. And all the jobs that I was looking at, were sort of similar to that. And I didn’t know what to do. And they let me do a pro bono immigration case while I was working at the firm. And it was the most rewarding, interesting work that I had done. And I sort of thought, well, maybe I could try to start my own law practice, I don’t know. And then I sort of thought, Okay, well, I’ll give this a try. And if it doesn’t work, I’ll just get another job. And I had no idea that whether it would work, or how would work, I just knew that I didn’t want to get a job, another job. I think the thing that made me most miserable about working at Big laws and associate was I just have no control over things. You know, that no control over the work I was doing, and the people I was working with, or my hours or what I would wear and anything like that. And, you know, when you have your own shop, you can do whatever the hell you want. And you can make whatever decisions you want. You can come and go as you please. And you can organize your life, however you want to do it. And I really liked that about it. So the place that I opened my law practice, I practiced in Boston, most of my career. Now I’m in Los Angeles, and I have an office in Boston and know a little bit how that came about. But the building that I practiced in was filled with solo lawyers and small firms. And it was kind of like, it was like, your squat, you know, it was very collegial. You know, somebody comes into my office and their immigration client, they have a bankruptcy case. And they said, You do bankruptcy? I’d say, Well, yeah, sure. Come on with me. And I’d get in the elevator and walk up to the third floor, you know, kick them over to the third floor and shake hands with somebody who does bankruptcy. And I learned a lot from these other lawyers who had been practicing for many, many years. It was very collegial, and they learned a lot about how to do it. And things sort of took off from there. So now I’m unemployable. That’s actually pretty funny. So I’ve got a question for you. It seems like immigration lawyers are becoming the next piano lawyer where they’re becoming to be a diamond doesn’t. And I know Jim has been doing it a while you’ve been doing it a while, what differentiates you from other immigration lawyers? Well, I mean, anytime you’re hiring a lawyer, or really anyone, there’s a range of people, right? There’s a range of people in terms of quality. I mean, there are people who just graduated from law school that call themselves immigration lawyers. And, you know, I mean, but I think I’ve been doing it a long time, I have a lot of experience. I’m super passionate about my work. I don’t know, Jim, I think you feel this way too. But I’m just as excited to work on cases. And to get up in the morning, go to work. And to do this work as I was, when I first started off, I really, really enjoy it. I love working with the clients, I’m really picky about the cases that I take on. I only take on cases where I feel like I have a really good likelihood of success, or, you know, in a way that kind of makes me a wimp, right? I don’t take cases that are super challenging and super difficult. Or, you know, if, for example, I don’t do detained immigration cases, I just don’t have the energy or the resource to handle it. But I think I’m pretty picky about the cases that I take on. So if I, if I’m meeting with someone, I said, Look, I’m going to I can do your case, it’s going to cost you this much. That means that I’m pretty confident that I’m going to be able to get the job done. So I have an approach to immigration law that can me probably share that feeling to I don’t know.
Yeah, Josh, I think it’s really important to know which kind of cases you want to handle and which ones you don’t. And I think you do do a really good job of being picky. How do you scale yourself? How do you you know, once you take the case, how do you make sure that you’re not doing all the little bits and pieces of filling out forms and talk to us a little bit about your processes?
Well, each case is different. And some of the cases are more time intensive than others. So my office does a lot of family based immigration. And a lot of that work is done by my paralegals. So my office I have I live in live in practice in Los Angeles, and I have my primary offices in Boston. And I have two associates in Boston and for paralegals in Boston. And so most of the work is all the work really is done in Boston and separate things that I handled personally. So when someone hires me for sort of a family based immigration case, or the paralegals are doing most of the document collection and form filling and stuff like that, and then we schedule meetings with the clients to handle, you know, that require the attention of the lawyer to go over things like preparing for interviews and hearings and stuff like that. But there are some cases that I work on almost exclusively or heavily. You know what I mean? Gosh, really see your firm headed I mean, we’re in 510 Two to 20 years and where do you want to be from a firm standpoint? Yeah, I mean, I don’t really know where I want to be in the next 10 years, because that’s sort of too far off the horizon, for me, and maybe that’s a bad thing. But we’re going through some real Growing Pains right now, we get a very high volume seems like a high volume of calls. And we’re using a call center to handle that. And that, you know, I’ve been talking about this, people who have met me at these conferences and have known that I’ve been trying to crack the intake nut for a long time. And it’s a real challenge for me. And I’ve been lucky to get to talk to Harlan shoulder and Eric Kaufman, some of these other people who have put a lot of time and energy and thought into intake. And so I mean, really, I just want to the growing pains are sort of like how do I coordinate work better between the two offices? And how do I improve my intake? So those are my immediate goals. And I think if I do that, then I can grow my firm pretty easily. But right now my intake is holding me back. Let’s talk about
that. In particular, what about intake is driving you crazy? And what are you doing to fix it?
Well, I think that one of the insights that I gained from Harlan, who’s a really smart guy, by the way, and I encourage anyone to chat with him was wants to improve their intake. But he said that the best way, and really the only way to get really, really good at intake is to do it yourself, to have a dedicated intake person in your office who you’ve trained and supervised and you closely monitor, and you do it yourself. And it’s something that I’ve been avoiding, I didn’t want to, I just didn’t want to deal with it. So I kind of fobbed it off on two different call centers. So when people call my office, they get a call center. And you know, there are some call centers are better than others. But I think it’s never going to be as good as you know, if your own staff is answering the phone, they know your business, you train them, you’re standing next to them, or monitoring the call. And I think that that’s the direction I’m headed. I’m trying to, I think you’re trying to do the same thing to or maybe you’ve done this, Jim, but hiring and dedicated intake person, training them getting, getting the right tools in place to make sure that that’s dialed in. I recently referred a personal injury case to a lawyer or law firm here in Los Angeles. And the way that they handled me as a referring attorney through their sort of intake call center process was really impressive and frictionless and prompt and you know what I was like, sort of a model of what I hope that I can achieve my own intake. I want to keep going down this this path a little bit, if you don’t mind. I guess what it wasn’t about that firm’s intake process that you love so much, because maybe there’s a couple of things that our listeners could adopt in their practices. What was it about their process that you love so much? I mean, I call their firm. And, you know, one ring, two rings, somebody picked up, asked me a couple of questions. And then it was just like, boom, you know, the attorney was texted me on their cell phone. And, you know, that same day, they were in touch with the client, I referred over and they signed him up, I think that day or the next day, but it was like, boom, boom, boom, done. I think, Jim, I don’t know if you have this feeling. But I think that there’s a view within among immigration lawyers, that the practice of law is not shouldn’t be a business. You know, sort of like you’re, you’re doing public interest work. And I mean, I’m not in this just for money, although this is how I feed my family and pay my bills. But you know, I mean, I’m passionate about it, I want to help people. And I want to, I want to see people get the get their green cards and their citizenship. That’s, that’s what I’m all about. But on the other hand, you are running a business. And I think, I think of it that way. You know, it’s a business decision. But yeah, I think that this guy had his intake stuff dialed in who this was not a call center that called me it was somebody done in the house? And, you know, I chatted with the lawyer a little bit about it, and I had to pick his brain a bit. But I think, you know, immigration, I think it’s probably the least lucrative area of law that you could possibly practice. And when you look at something like personal injury, there’s big money involved. So I think people, people do a better job of things like intake. How to handle cases. You don’t I mean,
yeah, I think so. So, Josh, let’s talk about having a office on two different coasts of the United States. Yeah.
So first of all, let me give you a little background and how I ended up with that. I ended up in Boston for most of my life, my adult life by but mostly because I just happened to go to law school in Boston and having any family in the area. I went to law school there and continue to practice there. And they had tons of friends there. And then, you know, I’ve been there most of my life most of my career. And then, in 2011, I went to a wedding. And it was in Topanga Canyon, which is like near Malibu, it’s beautiful, beautiful, like rustic sort of place. And it was in April, and in April in Boston, it’s sort of like the depths of winter. Now it’s 30 degrees, and all the leaves are gone off the trees, it’s winter. And in April in Los Angeles, you know, 75 and sunny, I stayed in Santa Monica, and Venice. And, and I thought, wow, this is pretty amazing. And then I thought, you know, Gino, Bernie wolf store and immigration attorney. He has these offices in Santa Monica right on Main Street, right? Like literally adjacent to the beach. And I thought, well, I speak Spanish fluently. I’m pretty good at marketing, like I could do this. And then I thought, Well, no, I’m too established in Boston, there’s no way I can do this. So I went back to Boston. But I always had this sort of this itch that I had to scratch, about Los Angeles. And I kept going back there, year after year to visit and thinking about it, and and then my girlfriend at the time, who we got engaged, and she got pregnant. And then I thought, well, if I don’t do this now, then it’ll never happen. And that coincided with the worst blizzard that anyone had ever seen since like the 70s in Boston, where there was like, 10 feet of snow everywhere. And then I said, Okay, let’s do it. But I didn’t have a great plan for how to do it. I just sold my house and moved to LA and, and I’ve been going back and forth ever since. And I’m fortunate that I have a really good staff in Boston, I have an associate, you’ve been with me for more than 10 years. And he’s really smart and capable and hands on and, and I have another associate who has a little bit different sort of skill set. She’s really, she’s great with clients, and she’s younger, and I have a lot of female paralegals. And so she she connects well with them. And so I think that those two attorneys have done an outstanding job of keeping the ship together. And I go back every six weeks, probably, to see how things are going. And but you know, it’s it’s a real challenge. And I think that having a law firm in two completely different areas of the country is not an easy thing to do is not going to work as well. If you move to California as if you’re going to work every day. And you’re in the office at 8am doesn’t work as well. And you’re not there physically. I want to ask you a bit about that, Josh, because and I’m glad you said that, because there are probably several people listening this that either have multiple offices or want to have multiple offices. How do you keep them together? I mean, what is your advice to people that want to do something similar to what you’re doing? Yeah, I mean, I think that you have to accept the fact that it’s not going to work as well, when you’re not there. Some things, at least I can speak for myself, some things work amazingly well, if somebody comes into our office and hires us to work on a case, that case is going to be done at an extraordinarily high level, you know, it’s we’ve got a process for handling the cases that works. I don’t lose sleep over cases getting messed up or something like that, because we’re dialed in on that. What I think is challenging is to maintain the same hustle. You know, if somebody calls up the phone rings, you know, the intake process, again, back to the intake, but the certain hustled factor that was much different when I was standing there, and the phone was ringing, then when the way it works now, and I think, I think I’m going to get much better at this once I hire my intake person and get my software set up and things like that. But, you know, it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge. And there are firms that do this, and they have locations all over the place. But I’m with some really far flung locations of Boston and Los Angeles. And then there’s a whole marketing component to you know, how do you market for multiple locations? I spent a lot of time and energy thinking about that. First, I started off having one website that had multiple locations, and I switched to one website for Boston and one website for LA. And you know, there’s no right answer to this. There are law firms that are super successful that have many locations that use a single website for different locations. And I chose to do it differently.
So we’ve got a couple of people on the show who operated one office remotely Sun camp has an office in Arizona. He lives in Cincinnati last week we had on again Saatva and she lives in Georgia and has all of our clients are in California. Do you think there’s a difference between Operating one remote location versus having two different locations, one where you actually live?
I mean, conceptually, I don’t think it would be any different. Yeah, no, I think it’s the same basic concept. Those lawyers don’t have an office where they live, they live in a different place. Right? Yeah. The I mean, I’d be interested to see how they’ve done it. My basic approach to law, firm management, and all these marketing all these ideas, is that there’s got to be somebody who has a better idea than I have, you know, all the way that I set up my business is just sort of what I thought would be a good idea. But I always assumed that somebody smarter than me has done it in a different and better way. So I’m always tinkering with things. And and I mean, yeah, I would love to, I should check out those podcasts to see what they have to say. But they probably have a really, I mean, right now, for example, I have a landline phone system in Boston, and a voice over internet phone system in LA. And I need to switch to voice over internet system for LA and make make it really seamless to transfer new calls between the two locations. I think that would help. But But yeah, I mean, it’s not an easy thing. So Josh, what Philadelphia if you were to start this all over again, and start your firm and two offices, what is something that you would do differently? What I think one thing that struck me there was somebody on the Facebook group that posted something and the guy said, I just started my law firm. And I launched my website two weeks ago, and I haven’t gotten any calls yet. What’s going on? You know, and I thought that was kind of I had to smile. Because when I started my law practice, I really put any thought into the marketing of it, you know, I mean, why would someone call you Why would anyone call you, you really have to spend a lot of time and energy and money on marketing, in order to get the phone to ring? Sure, you can have your friend do your website, or do it on your own, or do your social media on your own, and you can do email marketing on your own, and we shouldn’t do that. But at some point, I think there are people who are real experts on these things, like stuff, and others who can do it way better than you can you know what I mean? I think that, like when I first started off, I probably didn’t really get much revenue after it took me more than a year before I really got going. But now, I mean, knowing that what I know, now, I would have started a newsletter and collected emails. And I mean, you don’t have any clients at that point. So it’s plenty of time, could write content, and hours a day, for your website, to do all that sort of stuff. So I think focusing on marketing from the get go would be better. As far as how to manage the LA and Boston websites. I’m still improvising. And I don’t. I mean, one of the things that really was incredibly difficult is that when I came to LA, I took my original plan was not to take the California bar exam, because I figured, well, I’m an immigration lawyer, and I can federal, administrative, I can just do that work without a California license. And then I thought, you know, I’m living in California and practicing California really needs to be admitted
in California, too. So that
seems like a better long term thing. So I took I took the California bar exam, and it was a real beast. Basically, you can imagine, I mean, I couldn’t remember any of the law from law school, right? The rule against Shelley’s case or whatever, all that kind of nonsense, you have to go back and learn all that. So that was really sidetracked by it for about a year. By taking the bar exam. My attention was split between relearning the first year of law school, basically. And my practice, so I don’t know, maybe I would have taken the bar exam before I left. I don’t know. We’re not taking? I’m not sure. Gosh. Now, last question.
I know you and I spend a lot of time talking about running the firm and growing the practice, and we enjoy that stuff. I’m thinking back to the conference this year, when we had that session when Tyson and I were on, you know, upfront with Mitch and Seth and John. And they all sort of debated about, you know, how much law we want to be practicing how much management we want to be doing. And I’m just wondering, Where do you sort of fall on that spectrum? And how do you keep betting game?
Yeah, I mean, I love practicing law and I love I love working on cases, but my actual job is more running a running the business of my practice. So it is a struggle to juggle those two responsibilities. Right now, I’m working on some EB one cases. I don’t know if you do that, but they’re basically cases where you’re trying to prove that someone has extraordinary ability, and if so, they Can through self petition, they can get a green card without any kind of employer or anything like that. And one of the cases is for a professional athlete, and another one is for celebrity. I mean, they’re super fun cases, and they’re ones that I don’t have an easy to do template for, you know. So they’re, they’re sort of bespoke, and they have to spend a lot of time and energy on them. And I mean, it’s good stuff. But it also distracts me from the big picture, which is fixing my intake, which is something that you know, drifts away. So yeah, I mean, it’s a struggle to balance those two things. RIGHT. Jimmy, I love how Josh just did like a, our form of a name drop, the only way we can do it as lawyers, we can’t actually mention clients names, but he made sure he mentioned professional athletes is some famous person. So kudos to you for getting that pseudo sort of name dropping there, Josh, it is fun. I mean, I feel pretty honored to work on these cases. And it’s sort of like, you know, I don’t want to take those cases. And I don’t I don’t want to give them to my associates. I want to do it, you know? No, and I’ve met those are blessing, but they really are really awesome. I mean, it’s great. Do need to, we need to wrap things up, because I think that’d probably chat with you all freaking day. But before I do, I want to make sure that I remind everyone to go to the Facebook group, join there and get involved, you’re going to find a ton of content there. If you’ve not been there yet, you might be a little surprised by the amount of content. And then also, please, please, please, just take a second while you’re listening to our tip of the hat. Go and give us a five star review on iTunes or wherever get your podcasts. You’ve been listening to this you think you know, I really love these guys or guys or I really love Jim or Tyson. I just love the gas. I can’t finish guys. Just pleased if you don’t mind, go on and give us a five star reviews to Spread the Love. Jimmy What’s your hack of the week.
So before we hopped on today’s call, I was talking with Kelsey Bratcher, our, our Zapier and automation guru, and he’s been in contact with two fellows that I follow their podcast is called Hustle and Flow Chart. And Kelsey is going to be on their show. And it reminded me that this is a podcast, I’ve probably listened to about 20 episodes of right now. And they really have it’s not for lawyers, but they really have that nice balance of automating systems plus marketing that I think I’ve learned a lot from listening to it. So I recommend that to our listeners Hustle and Flow Chart, that sort of fun, sort of light. But there’s some really good content in there. And I’m on their email list. And they’re actually one of the automated emails or email services that I read most of their emails each week.
I like it out there, check them out. I mean, I’ve got a very a ton of podcasts already listened to I can’t even get through but sounds like it’s worth jumping into. Alright, Josh, you know, the routine, what’s your tip or hack of the week, tip or hack of the week, I’d like to put in a shameless plug. For the max law conference, I thought it was the best law conference that I had been to. And that’s the conference where I met. I met Mitch and John Fisher, and got involved with their groups. And there’s I know, I really got a lot out of it, it was a lot of fun. And I plan to come back this year. So it’d be a shameless plug. But yeah, I like the conference a lot. It’s great. I love it, I’ll give you your 50 bucks after the show, I’ll send to you via Venmo. In time for my day, yeah, the day just in time for your date night you get a nice, I’m sure you get a really nice meal. And in California with you know, and I will say the conference really was great. I mean, the things that I remember the most about that was just hanging out, you know, sharing a an Uber with Mitch, you know, and going with the Cardinals game and staying late and having a drink with people just chatting. And it was really was a lot of fun. So it was the funnest one I’ve ever been to. And I obviously I’m biased, but it really was good. But for my tip a week, I want to I want to give you I’m gonna find a way to make you all some money next year. So put the money in your pocket. And the way to do that is go through your expense list, the things you’ve spent money on every month, write those down or pull them from QuickBooks or getting them from your bookkeeper or your accountant and go through line by line by line and get by a vendor and see where am I wasting money where what are things that I’m paying for that I’m not really getting any value off of anymore. So maybe the things that three years ago, you’re paying a monthly fee for that you’re getting a lot of value for and you’re not really using anymore. Get those, get them out of your system, quit paying for them, and you’re gonna put maybe 10s of 1000s of dollars in your pocket. So do that now before the end of the year. So going into next year, you can start with almost a clean slate and you’re gonna have a lot of value out of it. Alright Josh, as I expected, amazing. love talking to you. You’re a great guy. Great lawyer. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. It was great. I really appreciate it. Love the podcast. Keep it up guys.