The Most Valuable Thing You’ll Learn From Another Lawyer


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Today, we are combining forces with another terrific legal podcast, Everything Except the Law, with host Nick Werker, who is interviewing Jim and Tyson! In this episode we’re going to be learning all about the origins of Maximum Lawyer, and of course Jim and Tyson will be sharing some of their top law office management tips.


➡ The headaches and heartaches that happen when starting your firm

➡The biggest financial mistake that lawyer make

➡Most common lawyer marketing mistake

➡The most valuable thing you learn from another lawyer

➡What is on the horizon and is the future of law

We have a lot to cover, so let’s get right into it

Episode Highlights:

01:10 Meet Jim and his starting point for building his law firm

02:55 Meet Tyson and his starting point for building his law firm

04:30 Starting Maximum Lawyer – talking about the headaches, heartaches when starting your law firm

07:30 Running a free Maximum Lawyer facebook group

10:16 Interactions with other lawyers on the podcast #yikes!

13:38 The biggest financial mistake that a lawyer can make

16:28 Most common lawyer marketing mistake, that is the most frustrating thing see

18:16 The most valuable thing you learn from another lawyer in Maximum Lawyer

20:15 What is on the horizon — the future of law

🎥 Watch the full video on YouTube here.

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Transcript: The Most Valuable Thing You’ll Learn From Another Lawyer

Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.

Unknown Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to answering legals everything except the law podcast. I am your host, Nick worker. If this is your first time tuning in, this is the podcast where we share expert advice on all the parts of running a law firm that attorneys weren’t exactly trained for back in law school. Now today, we’ll be combining forces with another terrific legal podcast as we welcome to or the two creators of the maximum lawyer, attorneys, Jim hacking and Tyson nutrix. In this episode, we’re going to be learning all about the origins of maximum lawyer. And of course, we’ll be asking Jim and Tyson to share some of their top law office management tips. We have a lot to cover, so I gotta get right into it. Thank you both for joining us today. Can you tell our audience a little bit about your individual law careers, and also how you got to know each other.

Jim Hacking
So my name is Jim hacking. I’m an immigration lawyer in St. Louis, Missouri. I’ve been practicing law. It’ll be 25 years this October. And I was a general practice commercial litigator for two years. And then I was a maritime lawyer for eight years or so then I’m practicing immigration law for 15 years. So my wife is originally from Egypt, we met in law school, she moved to the States when she was seven. And after law school, I changed my religion, I converted to Islam, and the Muslims were always asking me to help them with immigration matters. And I would always try to refer them to other immigration lawyers, those immigration lawyers would tell me they were too busy, not to send them any more cases, I thought that would be a good problem to have. And I wanted to have my own firm. So I went to my wife when we had two and a half kids. And she’s and I said, I really, really want to open my own firm. It’s been my lifelong dream. And she said, funny, that’s interesting, because we’ve known each other for 10 years. And you’ve never told me that. So she wanted me to do a binder and come up with a plan to like what the offer was gonna look like. So I worked on that for about seven months, which I never actually used. I just did it to make her happy so that she’d let me open the law firm, we open the law firm, and I thought I would do all kinds of law for immigrants like car accidents for immigrants, wills for immigrants, and then learn immigration for immigrants. But it became clear pretty quickly that the need was really with immigration. So in 2012, we started focusing exclusively on immigration. And then, around that time, I was teaching a class at St. Louis University School of Law on law practice management. I was asked to teach at one summer because the regular professor was out for the summer and, and that’s where I’m at Tyson.

Unknown Speaker
I love the idea of two and a half kids, like I know what you mean, but two and a half kids.

Tyson Mutrux
It’s a good segue. So my career was a little bit different than Jimmy’s. So I knew the second semester of law school that I wanted to try cases. So I also knew that I wanted to open my own firm at some point. But I had worked for a volume injury firm in St. Louis. And that abruptly ended one day. And so I started my firm a little bit earlier than what I had planned. And I started doing Criminal Defense and Personal Injury, criminal defense, just because I had to pay some bills. And then personal injury because it was what I was used to what I knew I knew some of that criminal offense because one of the partners at the firm I work for he did criminal defense. And so I learned a little bit. And so I was able to do that for did that until about 2017 2018. And then I gave up on that just because I just wanted to focus on personal injury. And it’s one of the things we’re similar to Jim, I’ve had a partner for no longer partners, but I’ve done the whole partnership thing didn’t work out wasn’t for me. And then I’d say over the last five, six years, we’ve seen probably the best growth I’ve seen since I’ve started my firm and it was 2011. Whenever I first started that firm, it’s been exponential growth has been just, I’ve seen more growth than what I expected. It’s kind of crazy once you start focusing on one practice area and one practice area only, which I’m sure Jim has experienced the same thing that once you’ve niched down, things change quite a bit for your firm.

Unknown Speaker
I think it comes out next week, I had a conversation with Chris Dreyer about niching down your firm and how you think like, oh, it’s gonna be I’m gonna get less work. And but it’s not necessarily the case. If you’re an expert, you obviously more people will want to come to you. So I want to talk about maximum lawyer because I mean, you both have successful separate careers. Can you take us through the history of maximum lawyer about the origins, how it’s grown? Like, how did you to start this?

Jim Hacking
So we were having lots of conversations about running our law firms about the headaches, the heartaches, the fun and the pain of running a law firm. And around this time, I was listening pretty regularly to a great podcast called I love marketing, and I thought it would be fun for us to start recording our conversations and we used to do them on Skype and some of our older episodes. Probably have background noise of trains going by or construction out on the street, it was a pretty low budget deal. But at first, we just started talking to each other. And then the nice thing about the podcast was as we started bringing on experts to help us figure out things that we were trying to work on in our own firm. So we sort of created the podcasts that we needed for ourselves.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, and I’ll just add on to that. It’s kind of fun just thinking about because we’ve been asked this a few times. And it’s kind of fun to go back every time and think about it. Because I always pick up extra things every time I think about it. I don’t know about you, Jim, like whenever we kind of like talk about like the origin of maximum lawyer and some of the things that Jim left out is that he was the brainchild for the name of maximum lawyer. We were all brainstorming in a conference room. We had another partner at the time. And Jimmy came up with the name of maximum lawyer. And is it because he was working on at the time maximum, Jim, he was trying to improve himself. And so he’s like, Oh, what about maximum lawyers, it was like, it was perfect timing, coming up the name of it. But I also think back to the set in his class, and he brought all these other people in. And it’s funny how like what Jim’s style was, let’s bring in other people to teach the class. And so he would bring it for each class, he bring in a new a new attorney to teach something. I mean, it was a really effective way. And it’s very similar to what we’ve done on the podcast, too. But we’re not like running into each other and seeing each other for a little bit. And we ran into each other at a Culvers. And that’s whenever we started to start to talk again about running a law practice and had and brainstorming all these ideas. And they’re like, oh, let’s do the podcast. That’s really what it was. And Jim’s right, he was the head of our own firms is really, we want to talk about things that were helping us. And that’s been a massive benefit for the two of us, because we have to talk to fantastic law firm owners, we get to talk to fantastic business owners, but we also get to talk to people that are struggling and seeing what they’re doing wrong. And we kind of adjust what we’re doing based on what kind of we’ll be here. So it’s been a really cool experience for both of us, we’ve been able to learn quite a bit.

Unknown Speaker
I love the story of naming the podcast, we want us to start a podcast we knew. So I’m not a lawyer, and nobody that works here is a lawyer. We were like, What can we talk about what value? Can we offer lawyers? Well, we know a lot about marketing. And we have a lot of connections. So we get people on the show. What are we going to name this thing if we can’t talk about the law? And I think Joe is the one who named it. Joe Gulati, my colleague, it’s like, why don’t we talk about everything except the law. And that’s just where it came from. We had all these crazy, windy names, level up your law firm, things like that. And it was just we don’t know anything about what we’re talking about. So we can’t talk about that. I want to ask you about the group. So obviously, the maximum lawyer Facebook group has to be either the most popular or among the most extremely popular groups for attorneys to get feedback from their peers. So did you ever imagine that the group would become the successful when you first started it? And why do you think lawyers are so comfortable engaging in this space?

Tyson Mutrux
Well, I’m a little surprised in the success in as to how it’s used more than anything, because the initial idea for the group was just create a community for our listeners to kind of hang out and talk and talk to each other. I think now it’s used mostly as like a resource for information about things, whether that be we got a joke, like, you can gotta go in there figure out like, what’s the best scanner, every week, there’s a new one about like, what’s the best answering service, you know, like, so you get information like that make your own decision. So I’m a little surprised as to how it’s used. Now, I think, I think that the way the guild is used, is much more similar to the way the big group used to be. So we kind of differentiate the two between the big group and the guild. And so I’m a little surprised when it comes to that I’m not surprised by the number of people in it. It’s one of those things where we’ve been putting out good content, I’m not ashamed to say that we’ve been putting out good content for six, seven years now. And so I’m not surprised by that. But I am surprised by how it’s been used, though,

Jim Hacking
we very actively kick people out that have a negative outlook or that are complaining about things. And I think that’s really helped. I also think that running a law firm is a pretty isolating activity, that no one knows the pressures of the law firm owner other than other law firm owners, or maybe other business owners. And there’s things that you can say to each other in the Facebook group that you wouldn’t be able to say to your team members, and some of our best episodes are the ones where were the most vulnerable or the most real and talking about the things that really suck. And I think that people were just looking for connection, and we’re looking for people that are going through the same thing. And so we started the Facebook group and then all of a sudden people started participating and when they started participating, then you know, you started having friends around the country who may not even practice the same kind of area of law that you do but that you feel a real connection to because they told you about a struggle they told you about something they overcame. And so we started this group and then you know, we had Oh, there’s Barnard and Alabama and there’s I mean I can name seven attorneys right now from Alabama Kira, Mo Kristin So there’s all kinds so that we have all these and I you know, I can see them and picture them and then We had our first conference and I was like, Oh, these people that I know electronically now I know in real life. And so it was just really, really organic. But it was also really, really tapping into a need that I think people were having

Unknown Speaker
So, same breath, what would you say is some of the most fun or interesting interactions that you’ve had with other attorneys or members of maximum lawyer? Well, we

Jim Hacking
had one podcast episode where somebody was either drunk or high. So that was a lot of fun. We think about that one often, who was the guest? The guest, yes, the guest, I think it was after a long weekend of University of Florida football, and the person was not making a whole lot of sense. But it was fun on the west. I mean, we’ve had a lot of good experiences, we’ve had ones where we we’ve done them by ourselves, I enjoy talking to Tyson just he and I, we’ve had the opportunity to meet great lawyers face to face and to hear their stuff. So I don’t know, Tyson. What do you think which one stands out for you?

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, I’m thinking about a few different things I’m thinking about from both ends of the spectrum, like the negative and the positive. I mean, like, on the negative side, I’ll get I’ll get that one first. In general, like I’m not a negative person, but like, lawyers can be children, like they can act like children sometimes because Jin’s, right, like, we definitely do take care when it comes to the group, making sure that we don’t have abusive people in the group and people that are just there to troll people and all that we pick them out. And it’s kind of interesting to see people that from that end of the spectrum, but then on the other end of the spectrum, it’s amazing that like, people are there to like learn and like get information and share information. And seeing people that are crying, because they’re not gonna make their mortgage next week, that person and then seeing them in like three years, like seeing where they’ve grown to, and seeing like how they’ve got like, a massively successful firm, and I’m not gonna mention who that person is. But there are several of those stories. And that’s what I think is cool is watching them go from, like, just in a really, really tough spot to then getting to like a highly successful law firm, like that’s a step that I think is really just remarkable.

Unknown Speaker
I agree with you. And I recently, we started shooting a lot of customer testimonial videos, we put them on Facebook. And the response is great. It’s a lot of fun to work with our customers. But so we started hiring these companies and other places. And I was sitting down with somebody the other day, and we’re going over who we can call in like Chicago, and we’re saying names, I’m like, Oh, my God, that guy’s still with us, is started out seven years ago. So it’s just crazy to see. And it really, it makes you feel good about what you do that that you’ve helped, at least in some regard. people achieve success. But I gotta tell you, so I’m like the, I don’t know how to describe it. I guess I’m the man behind the curtain, so to speak. So I get all our Facebook comments, all that crap that comes through. I got one recently. It’s just an ad. It just says 24/7 answering, I don’t even know what it says something very basic. Like you can’t argue about this. And this guy. I think he commented on like four different sizes. He found them all somehow. And he wrote chat GPT you’re cooked? And I’m like, I don’t know, the you know, you’re talking about there, man. So I get it, you gotta hide the bad comments, because they just ruin it for everybody. I want to ask you, because this is one of those things that I can’t really ask a lot of people. Because no one really sees the back end, I think of the financials of a law firm like you guys do. So recently, on your podcast, you covered the six worst financial mistakes that lawyers can make. But let people go check out the episodes. I’m going to put that link to that in the description. But while you’re here, I wanted to ask you what’s the biggest financial mistake that you guys have made, that you want to warn people against early on in your careers.

Jim Hacking
My first piece of advice for anyone opening a law firm now is always to get their chart of accounts squared away and to get a bookkeeper involved from day one. It’s much easier to do that than to do what I did, which was I used to walk around and proudly brag hahaha I’m a history major. I’m a lawyer, I don’t need to know my numbers. I don’t need to pay attention to all that stuff. I’m in it to help people I’m not in it to make money or to make payroll right and so just sort of entitled little world view of well, things will work themselves out and really need to pay attention to it. That’s that was all a bunch of BS. You’ve got to know your numbers. You got to know if you’re making money. I almost drove the firm into the ground because I took my eye off signing up new cases. And hopefully I’ll never make that mistake again. I’ve had to clean up prior bookkeeper mistakes twice with two other bookkeepers mostly because of my lack of follow through on that stuff. So that’s been my biggest mistake is just sort of the the hubris of thinking everything will work itself out if I just keep going.

Tyson Mutrux
And I’ll just add to that. It’s not necessarily when it comes to the chart of accounts, but you need to have a system for handling your money. So I highly recommend like reading like a book like Profit First and is just because you have, let’s say, a $50,000 in your bank account, just because you have $50,000 in your bank account doesn’t mean that that’s your money, right? You’re gonna have the IRS, you’re gonna owe state taxes, all that kind of stuff. So having a system for things like that, where you’re putting your money in buckets is really, really important. That way you actually know how much money you actually have, as opposed to like, what you’re going to owe to other people. And so just, for example, let’s say you owe money for, you know, firm bonuses or something like that. Have a bucket for that, because that way, you know, okay, this money’s for firm bonuses, this is for owners compensation. This is for taxes, whatever it may be, okay, this is the port that I have to work with here and having some system like that, and it doesn’t have to be propped first. I’m sure there’s other really good systems out there. But using a system like that is really effective for you knowing actually what money you have to work with

Becca Eberhart
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Unknown Speaker
So I’m sure that through your group, you see a lot of fellow attorneys making some very, I don’t know head scratching or like, I don’t know, frustrating mistakes. What’s the most common lawyer marketing mistake that you see? That just like, drives you crazy the most?

Tyson Mutrux
I want to take this one first, Jim, I wonder what if you’re gonna say the same thing, they stopped doing what they started doing, I don’t care what the thing is, you name the thing, whatever the marketing thing is, they stop after a month or two. They’re like, Oh, getting any results, so it doesn’t work. And so that is the most frustrating thing, because the most important thing is consistency. And you’ve got to be consistent about it. So that, to me is frustrating. They don’t stick with it. And so I think that’s probably one of the biggest mistakes, if not the biggest mistake.

Jim Hacking
For me, it’s the lack of giving up of control. Lawyers are control freaks, and they keep their firms small, and they’re afraid to grow, because they’re afraid to let go of controlling every single thing. I talked to a law firm owner once who was still doing basic bookkeeping, even though he had a firm of like seven people. And I mean, like he was doing the bookkeeping, he was drafting the checks to be signed, he was balancing out the client trust account, all that stuff, it just made no sense at all. And it’s because I think people who are tend to be control freaks tend to become lawyers. And then once they’re in charge, they don’t have any checks on themselves, so that stuff sort of goes into hyperdrive, then they get stressed. So they say I gotta control more. And so they really hold on tightly. And then if they try to step outside their comfort zone and hire someone, and it doesn’t work for the very first time, then they say, Oh, that’ll never work. I’m never gonna do that. Again. That’s really what drives me crazy.

Unknown Speaker
So obviously, you guys share a lot of great tips through maximum lawyer, but I want to flip things around for a second and ask, what’s the most valuable thing that each of you learned from somebody, like another attorney? In maximum lawyer?

Jim Hacking
Yeah, for me, the two of our great mentors are Mitch Jackson and John Fisher. And John Fisher, is the author of two great books, the first one being the power of a system. And that book sort of helped me see that I really needed to systematize things that I had a lot of things in my head of how we do things, and I needed to get that nailed down in the paper or procedures. And then with Mitch, he taught me about the importance of being everywhere, when it comes to social media, and not being afraid to create content to regularly create content to publish content on a regular basis. And to sort of have a voice and say what I want to say,

Tyson Mutrux
and I’m struggling with this one, because there’s just so many good things we’ve learned over the years. I guess if there’s one lesson I’ve learned overall, enough from one specific person is that, like, there’s a lot of power in just the podcast in general when it comes to reaching out to so many different people and connecting with so many different people. And like having that network of people is just so massively important because of the work that we’ve done over the last six, seven years. Like we have like we can reach out in any single state I think Hawaii would be the toughest one for Alaska maybe but like I’ll send it texted him like hey, the state planning attorney in New Jersey or something like that, we I know several that state but I can give whatever practice area it is and whatever, like whatever state there’s a list of people that we have that we can connect to and it’s just it’s really incredible. So I think that that’s the thing that sort of stands out the most to me, I I can’t think of a one particular lesson that I’ve learned from someone, but we’ve because there’s just been so many.

Unknown Speaker
I think there’s a fair answer. I’m curious, because I usually ask lawyers that come on the show what they think like the future of law will be what they’re excited about. But I think as someone who talks to so many lawyers, you actually do have a fundamental understanding of where things are heading based on like patterns that you’ll see of new things that come out. So what do you think is next on the horizon for the future of law? Like, what excites you? What concerns you the most? What’s the next? I don’t know, big thing?

Tyson Mutrux
I think this is an obvious one. I think it’s one that we’re that we’re dealing with right now. And it is now March of 2023. Or it’s almost the end of it, right? Chad GBT launched in November, okay. And the acceleration in AI in the last five months has been intense. Case Tech’s just announced basically a legal assistant that does legal risk research for you and writes legal memos for you. Like, he can write briefs for you. Okay, it is intense, right. And so that is just, those are, those are just things that have developed over the last five months. And so I think, if we didn’t mention that, I think we would be negligent and doing so it’s, that is where we are right now, I do think there should be a little bit of a concern that if you don’t utilize it, you could be left behind. I’m not one of those alarmist that says it’s going to destroy the law, because attorneys are going to be necessary, right. So there was already a lawsuit about a bot, practicing law, someone’s already filed a lawsuit lawsuit about that. So that lawyer is going to be necessary. But if you’re not utilizing artificial intelligence, in some capacity, you’re going to be left behind. And what it’s gonna allow you to do is get a lot more work done in a shorter amount of time, and it’s gonna save your clients money, it’s probably gonna lower your costs, because you’re gonna have less people to do it. So I do think there’s a general workforce problem, and not just legal, but I think it could reduce a lot of jobs. But I think there’s also other jobs that will develop because of that. But I think, I think the AI is a massive one, that we’ve got to keep an eye on

Jim Hacking
travel agencies to have all of the secret ways of getting people cheap plane tickets, real estate agents used to have the MLS, and they had exclusive access to all the information about the buying and selling of houses. Over time, we’ve seen websites, sort of knocked most travel agents out of business, they’re still successful travel agents, ones who do what they do, and do it very well. But they really had to perfect their craft. With real estate people have more information at their fingertips than any agent did five or 10 years ago, right, you can find out anything you want about a particular house or particular piece of property. That too, has gotten faster and faster. As more information has become available. Lawyers have been doing everything they can to keep the general public from figuring out what it is that we do and how we do it and setting up this monopoly called the practice of law. And it’s starting to get chipped away at in states like Utah and Arizona, that stuff’s coming, that’s coming. And if you don’t pay attention to chat GPG, for all the reasons Tyson just mentioned, you should pay attention to it for one reason, and that is the speed of adoption, the speed of adoption of chat GPT is exponentially faster than Facebook ever was. So when it comes, it’s going to come fast. And if you’re not able to stand out, and to have the the access to the clients, it’s going to be everything access to the clients, in a way to get the clients is going to be everything because almost everything else is going to become a commodity.

Unknown Speaker
I’m not an alarmist either. I remember when everybody. So I was big into SEO for a while. I’m a marketing guy. And I remember Voice Search, everybody’s telling me voice search is going to replace regular search. And I said, No, it’s not. And that for the most part, I was kind of right. And then they said, all these things are gonna come out the Google ads is gonna kill search. This is going to kill search. And when chat GPT came out, everybody’s telling me all chat GPT it’s gonna write content. It’s gonna do this. And I’m like, No, it’s not. And it’s, and a lot of like, Bing, Microsoft just launched their own chat, GBT. I know, Google is giving people access to bar, which is the beta for theirs. And I have a buddy who runs a second anti bullying charity organization. And for whatever reason, he posted an essay that Bard had wrote about his it was a sort of like a press release about what he’s doing. And I read it. And at the end, I couldn’t tell whether or not a person had written now wasn’t amazing. It wasn’t like a compelling article that it was just very, but it was cohesive. It made sense it built on previous points. And it looked as if a human could write this. So I imagine that the implications of writing legal briefs is not that far away. I do also imagine that it could provide more jobs like the people who are specializing in creating briefs or outsourcing these briefs for lawyers, met briefs, memos, filings, whatever that you need written up. Do you guys know of anybody? Who’s utilizing this sort of thing yet? Or is it still like, a little too early?

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I know that we’re using in our firm to develop content. I’m not going to tell you exactly why or how, because it’s, I think what we’re doing is pretty amazing. What I’m doing over here is I’m pulling up case text, right? This is a something that they’re only they’re kind of limiting who gets access to her now, but they’ve got this CO counsel, I just pulled up this chat that I did earlier, we got an email from an adjuster, and there’s something called a set off. And yet he and I can get all the details. But I asked him to go find me the case law on this. And then it actually asked me clarifying information. I gave it back. Anyone gave me all the information, all the cases, and it took me about five minutes total, as opposed to digging through a bunch of different cases and reading through those cases. And that was just one thing that I did today. And I just started it today, right? Because our buddy Ryan McCain, he mentioned it, someone else had mentioned it in The Guild, and then Brian Makina, tweeted about it on Twitter. And then I was like, I’m gonna test this thing out. And it’s quite impressive. One of the major problems with Chad GBT is that it doesn’t provide the citation. I’ve got all the citations right now if I want to, if I wanted it to write me a memo, it would write me a memo. So that’s one example that I can give you. But there’s, you can create right now I can take all of the content from this podcast. And I can tell all the videos for me and Jim, and I can create using AI, I can upload our videos, I can upload our audio. And we can start producing if we wanted to podcast after podcast after podcasts about a variety of different topics. And it wouldn’t even be me or Jim Knight. That’s what you can do right now, like that is what you can do. Right? This very minute is quite crazy. The things you can do.

Unknown Speaker
kind of alarming. So if our listeners are not already connected with maximum lawyer, how can they connect with you guys further? And I know you mentioned the guild, how can they access the guild as well?

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. So if you want more information, you can join us on the big Facebook group, just go to Facebook and search maximum lawyer, he’s yours there. Anyone will want a more high level conversation go to max law That’s where we’ve got. It’s a membership group where we’ve got a lot of amazing members that are willing to share really all their secrets in the group and it’s pretty amazing. So if you want that to go to Mexico If you want to just find out more information about maximum lawyer in general go to maximum

Unknown Speaker
Also, I’d like to thank both you guys, Jim and Tyson for joining me on the show today. Thank you to all of our listeners. We hope that you enjoyed this conversation and we will be back with another episode of everything except the law of soon. Be sure to check out previous episodes of our show on Apple podcasts, Spotify and the answering legal YouTube channel. Thanks, Nick. Nick. Thanks, guys.

The post The Most Valuable Thing You’ll Learn From Another Lawyer appeared first on Maximum Lawyer.

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