In today’s episode Seth and Jay joined special guest Josh Odintz of Baker McKenzie to talk about PPP 2 and tax consequences given the new bill just signed by the president.
Joshua D. Odintz is a partner in and on the management committee of Baker McKenzie’s North American Tax Practice Group. Joshua held high-level government positions with both the US Department of the Treasury and the Senate Finance Committee. He previously served as a Senior Advisor for Tax Reform to the Assistant Secretary at the US Department of the Treasury, where he advised Senior Treasury officials on tax reform options and issues.
Joshua focuses on tax policy, tax controversy, and withholding tax matters. He advises clients on domestic and international tax controversy matters at all phases, from audit and administrative appeals through litigation.
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Transcript: Maximum Growth Live with special guest Josh Odintz
Speaker 1
welcome to the podcast edition of maximum growth live. The number one program for lawyers who want to grow their practices. Each week, our hosts Seth price and Jay Ruane tackled the fundamental questions about how to grow the profit and profitability of your law firm to watch the program live submit your questions and hear the latest episode tune in every Thursday at 3pm. Eastern on Facebook for our live show maximum growth live is a production of maximum lawyer media.
Speaker 2
Hello, hello and welcome to a special pop up edition of maximum growth live. I know we told you we are going to see until the new year but with everything happening in the world of PPP, we wanted to bring you a special show. Maybe you could sit back relax on this sort time between Christmas and New Year’s and understand what’s happening in the world of PPP, Seth price my man over here, founder of blue shark digital as well as Price Benowitz. And Seth, you have gotten us a phenomenal guest today. Tell us all about
Speaker 3
Well, Josh Odin says a friend and neighbor who geeks out as much on tax as we do. I love firm growth and marketing. So you know whenever I speak to him, he’s it’s always a million miles over my head. But we’ve asked him to drill down and try to educate our tribe here as to what does this second round of PPP mean? And just can’t wait to sort of get some clarification. I mean, the headline is that is the tax piece and what that means for so many watching here today. And the second piece will be what is what is possible as more money down the pike for those that have been hit so hard by COVID.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I’ve got some specific questions. One thing that really piqued my interest was the employee retention tax credit that we weren’t eligible for. And it looks like we are so I want to ask him about that. So why don’t we take a quick break. And when we come back, I’ll get him out of the green room up on the screen. We’ll hear from our sponsors first and then when we come back, we’ll have this interview. We’ll talk all about PPP, too, and be able to get some information out there to our people. Sound good? Sounds great. Awesome. We’ll be right back, folks. Just give us one quick minute and we’ll be right back with Joshua with some great questions and answers about PPP to
Speaker 4
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 2
Seth and his team have years of experience in this area.
Speaker 6
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Speaker 3
Joshua Wiggins, thank you for being here. Senior Partner, Baker McKenzie, part of the Management Committee, the man who’s thinks more about tax than anybody I know. We are sitting here at a time where lawyers who listen to us you know, live through the first PPP was very valuable for a lot of people waiting to see what the second bill finally passing is. Can you tell us what is the skinny first, what does this mean for people that received money during the first PPP round?
Speaker 7
Yeah, so maybe I’ll provide a quick overview of what changed in the triple A because there’s various important changes. So first and foremost, the types of expenses that can qualify for loan forgiveness. So there are some new categories of expenses. And I’m going to include operations. So software, cloud computing, HR, anything used to track billing.
Speaker 3
You and Josh, assume for our purposes here, given the extended window, I think most people in this audience will be able to write that everything will qualify, we this is not a group. They’re small business owners to medium sized business owners between payroll and rent. The big, you know, the big thing that everybody’s focused on right now is the deductibility of what we got that there was a period where until this past that we were concerned that you’d be paying taxes and not being able to write off the work that that is the sort of main focus of this audience.
Speaker 7
Okay, so first, the good news is that, to the extent a law firm obtains loan forgiveness, that amount is not includable as income. And that’s clarified, although I thought it was clear in the original law, but apparently, Congress felt the need to, to clarify that second, any amount that is forgiven, also does not affect thesis in a partnership. It’s considered tax exempt. It does not have any other tax, it doesn’t reduce tax attributes. It doesn’t affect basis. It has it also deductions shall not be denied, because of an amount that was used from a PPP loan to pay off an amount that gave rise to deduction. So effectively, the the statute overrides the guidance issued by Treasury is a notice that said taxpayers could not get the double benefit. So Treasury has lost that fight with Congress. And so taxpayers can, for example, deduct take a deduction for wages and at the same time, have the loan from the Triple P. Forgiven that was used to pay for those wages.
Speaker 3
What about there’s a second category, a lot of our viewers may be solos or independent contractors where they got that 20k. Does this affect them differently in any way? Or is that the same basic concept?
Unknown Speaker
Same concept?
Speaker 3
That’s great. So a big sigh of relief? We? Yeah, we read it the way you did. But like, we’re very concerned, many, many people out there that there was people were squirreling away money in case it didn’t break this way that they might have a huge tax bill coming.
Speaker 7
Yeah, so Treasury has a short fuse, to issue guidance. They have 10 days to issue guidance interpreting the Triple P program. This comes at a very odd time for the government, because the last window for publishing guidance is January 15. That’s the last day the federal register will publish. So the idea that they’re going to get something done tend to in eight days, I think, is fanciful. But, you know, we could see more guidance as we go into the filing season, because there’s going to be a mismatch in the software and how the software so if you use Quicken or it TurboTax, or one of the other software providers, it will not contain the information contained in this law. And so there’s going to be a mismatch for for a period of time. The software providers will want guidance and how to fix it, then interpretations on how it’s going to flow through on a form. So I expect treasury to issue that guidance as soon as possible. But I doubt it’s going to be out in in eight days.
Speaker 3
But there’s no way that Treasury could do any take any steps that would negate what Congress just pushed through with the President saying that is correct. Awesome. So then the next thing as people have a big sigh of relief and realize they’ve been hopefully squirreling away money that’s not needed now for for taxes is whoo hoo hoo. And what is eligible for round one I’m calling around to I guess some people call it round three, but for this round of triple pay.
Speaker 7
Yep. So the requirements have changed a bit. First is the size of the employer. It’s limited to 300 employees, which is different from from the prior round, which was 500. aggregation rules still apply for law firms. So to the extent you have multiple occasions but exceed 300, it’s all aggregated into one number playa. So it’s 300 employees, the cap of the loan is 2 million. So decrease from 10 to two. In order to qualify a, a business has to show that it had a 25%, at least a 25%, decrease in profits, or sorry, in revenues, from fourth quarter between fourth quarter of 20/19, and fourth quarter of 2020. There are rules for firms that if they weren’t in existence, let’s say you had a merger brand new firm is created. There are different testing dates depending on when the firm was created. But basically, you’re comparing fourth quarters from 2019 and 2020. So if your revenues have decreased by a greater than 25%, then you can qualify.
Unknown Speaker
So I have a question about that.
Speaker 3
It’s only fourth quarter, there’s no other quarters that they’re looking at, it’s 1/4, you know, fourth quarter of, of 19 versus 20. You don’t have an option like the other one where you could look at two different date sets.
Speaker 7
That’s That’s correct. Although I suspect treasury. So there’s, so this is the amount of Triple P issue is 806. Point 5 billion in loan authorization. That’s a huge amount. And while I think they’re trying to spread it as thinly as widely as possible, I suspect Treasury could create different testing periods to measure the reduction. So it might be you might test the second quarter, the third quarter of 2020, which may be a better comparable, because like for retail, for example, you know, may not be what’s hard to
Speaker 3
do. Right? They got their Christmas bump, and that’s not as bad, but they died for those middle that those middle months.
Speaker 2
Well, the other thing, too, that I think people may have to consider is is different parts of the country had spikes at different times. And so that’s something that I think needs to be taken into consideration. And that might be something that we we see down the line, right? I mean, it would make sense. I mean, Connecticut, for us, you know, going into the fourth quarter, we were in a dip. I mean, there was a lot of people out doing a lot of things that we move spiked back up. But that’s certainly something that I think people might need to take into consideration of when when you’re, you know, reemergence or your spike happened and how that impacted business.
Speaker 7
Yeah, so as a former Treasury official, I was a treasury during the Obama administration, I’ll just say that getting to that decision of which quarter to test and how to how to read the statute will take some time, I would not expect that out in the first round of guidance. I could see the next administration in trying to distribute more trips, more Triple P funding will take a much more creative or broad interpretation of the statute.
Speaker 2
But if it’s a what’s safe to say, if if your fourth quarter had had a 26, or more percent dip from your fourth quarter in 2019, you qualify as it’s written today. Yes.
Unknown Speaker
And then what what will what are you eligible for?
Speaker 7
So once again, you’re eligible for up to $2 million of additional loan?
Speaker 3
Is it the same as last time on on a cost per employee basis? Up to $100,000? Or what’s what’s the?
Speaker 7
Yeah, it’s two, it’s two and a half times employee? Yes, that’s correct.
Speaker 3
Same basic for drillers before two and a half times up to $100,000 maximum annual salary. Is there a similar guidance as far as they they’d spent so much time what percentage on rent versus it seemed that all of that went out the window given the elongated period? You had to use it during?
Speaker 7
Yeah, it’s a 2424 week period. So that’s baked in now as opposed to?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Is there anything markedly different about this round other than the period and the decrease requirements?
Speaker 7
Yeah, so the costs that you qualify and in building up what your costs include some very interesting I mean, depending on as you think about getting the next round. So for example, you can use it for let’s say, a property damage. You have an office in DC that was destroyed by civil unrest, and insurance didn’t cover it. You can use funds from the Triple P, up to 40% of your Triple P slug can be used at work. You can use as much as you want for property damage. But if you want the loan forgiven, then still 60% is to qualify. After payroll supplier costs. So to the extent you’re, you know, you have a contract for legal service software, for example, like Lexus, you can now use that for supplier costs. Also PPE qualifies everything from physical barriers, and the statute refers to sneeze guards, air pressure, air and pressure ventilation filtration systems. If you want to build an a drive thru window into your firm that qualifies now, as a qualifying expense, health screening service facilities and anything else that OSHA and DHS, HHS or HHS and labor prescribe.
Speaker 3
Right, I guess for our world, that’s, that’s not as exciting in that salaries generally will you will eat that up very quickly over 24 weeks. Is there anything? So the piece that I think that most people who are going to be focused on is, you know, December to December versus others? Can you walk us through? Like, what what you foresee being that process? Meaning? Is it something that if right, now, let’s say your December to December is less than 25% of a decrease? It’s somewhere between zero and 25? Or, or even? You know, do you think that they’ll, what would the timeframe be before we have an idea as to whether or not because for many of us, it was the second and third quarter that were particularly horrifically hit?
Speaker 7
Yeah, so treasury. It’s interesting, that Triple P loan guidance has Treasury has taken the lead on issuing that guidance, even though the it’s a small business administration program. So SBA just issued guidance, but not at the same volume as Treasury. Treasury, people are disappearing, and they are overwhelmed with trying to get through tax guidance. And while we’re not going to get into much of the details of the of the bill that was passed, there are significant tax provisions that are going to impact filing season, there were extensions of many provisions that expired and more important modifications to those provisions, which creates a lot of complexity going into filing season, which starts, I mean, effectively started, even though it’ll technically kick off in a few weeks. So I think that Treasury is is going to be in a difficult bind, it will be up to the transition team that is currently working on working on the filing season, making sure there’s a smooth transition, it will be up to them to make this a priority. So it’s really it also depends on how many people can get into the building, you know, with Janet Yellen be confirmed on day one. Will they have folks in the front office who are familiar with the program? And who can, you know, and who are receptive to interpretation that you can compare different quarters? Because that’s how your business cycle works. Jay, I had I
Speaker 2
had a question for you. I noticed in some of the media about the PPP, Triple P. Number two is that it makes employers eligible for the employee retention tax credit that we were not eligible for if we took PPP one. Can you tell me a little bit about what that is? And how that would impact us? Solo are a small firm that has struggled and kept on its employees through this strength, strenuous period?
Speaker 7
Yep. So let me focus on two different interactions. The first is, and I think I saw it the most in this case of mergers. So let’s say your two law firms that wanted to merge, one had a Triple P loan and had used it the other had the employee retention and credit had claimed it. You can’t have both. And so the question is, what do you do and the IRS was unwilling to rule in the space, there are a lot of mergers that just didn’t come together or had to get creative on repayment. So the way that that works now, one is the CRTC has been plussed up to $10,000. of wages per quarter as opposed to $10,000 in wages per year. The credit is more generous. So it’s 70% of qualified wages. $7,000 versus $5,000 per employee. And then once again, it’s by the quarter. And so So under the new law, a taxpayer can claim the ER T C for wages Some that are not paid for with forgiven Triple P loans. So if you have a Triple P loan, but it’s not forgiven, you can still you can claim the ER TC for the amount of wages that are forgiven for that are free under that or premium that are part of a Triple P loan, those cannot qualify for the employee retention credit. So it’s still better than than the prior because now you can claim both, and two firms can can merge. Also, it’s clarified that group health plan expenses qualify. So that does help with providing a greater base for what can qualify for the employee retention credit.
Unknown Speaker
Excellent. Jay, you
Unknown Speaker
had one other question from before?
Speaker 2
Yeah, the question I had, was really about the Triple P and E IDL. It’s, and I could be wrong on this. But when I got the loan application and all that stuff, it talked about how your Triple P would be reduced by any eidl that you had gotten. And I have received my PPP that is long spent, I got my eidl. And I sort of squirrel it away for you know, this is my last, this is my this is my, you know, trying to save the ship when we got nothing else. And I’m wondering if, because I had that eidl If that’s going to negatively impact what I can get from the Triple P round two, because I have been dispersed that money and, and eidl is alone, it’s not going to get forgiven. But Triple P would, you know, am I in a position where I need to seek about getting back this eidl To qualify for Triple P round two. You know, I just I’m nervous about that. Because I don’t want to give that money that I might need to stay alive. And I don’t want to spend money that I don’t necessarily have to spend.
Speaker 7
Yep, so the good part, Jay is that the the the interaction of the eidl and Triple P has been eliminated. So you don’t have to reduce your Triple P amount by the amount of eidl. Advance. So and so that will not impact your forgiveness amount. So your your goal.
Speaker 3
But the eidl still has to be repaid, it’s not forgiven.
Speaker 7
So there is a there is a sense of the Senate a sense of Congress that it should not be. It shouldn’t have to be repaid. And it should be treated as like a Triple P loan. But that’s not included in the final legislation. So it’s possible that when they come around to the next round of COVID relief, which there will be another round at some point in 2021. That’s possible they address this issue head on. So
Unknown Speaker
we will feel more foolish if we repay the eidl early.
Speaker 7
I you know, it’s look, it’s hard. And but it definitely is. It’s definitely, you know, I probably would not repay, I would hold off and see what Congress does very much like think thank goodness Congress addressed the deductibility issue. Does I know that’s a massive issue.
Speaker 3
That’s that’s that that was that’s going to be our audience. That’s the biggest swing. And I hope that not you know, based on December, December that not as many people will be by round two. But at the same time, it’s there for those that that desperately need it.
Speaker 7
Yep. So also, you know, Jake, going back to the point, if you left some Triple P on the table, or your Triple P was reduced because of eidl. Or you gave some of it back, let’s say because you are concerned based on the inconsistent guidance from Treasury, then there’s going to be a process Treasury has to announce within 17 days of enactment a process for obtaining the differential so you can go back and claim more of your Triple P loan if you left some on the table. So that’s supposed to be a fast track process. We’ll see how that is outlined. So you may not have to actually reapply you may just be able to ask but it will that will depend on guidance.
Speaker 3
What I my final question on eidl is if you if somebody did repay it, can they get can they somehow get it back?
Speaker 7
So I am not an EI I’m an SBA expert. It doesn’t there’s nothing that clarifies that in the in the new bill. So I’d have to look back at you.
Speaker 3
Right now. It’s moved because right now it is for in less than changes. It’s needs to be repaid? Yes. Gotcha. Awesome. J, you got anything final?
Speaker 2
No, I think there’s really sort of encapsulates everything. I think, you know, over the next six to 12 weeks, it sounds like we’re going to be getting a lot more guidance. And, you know, that’s really going to be something that people have to pay attention to. It’s not something where it stays frozen in time, is that fair to say? That it’s it, this thing is definitely a moving ball. And as things crop up, they will address those things in future future guidance or future legislation.
Speaker 7
Yeah, I think, well, legislation is going to be hard. You know, until unless and until Congress reaches compromise on the next round of COVID. Really what I would expect to see one guidance, implementing any changes in the Triple P, and that we’ll see, hopefully, before this administration leaves tax, I expect tax will take a little longer because of the, you know, hundreds of pages of tax provisions contained in this bill. And, and so I expect we’ll see some guidance, you know, for the filing season as soon as possible. But probably it might, it might be until February, before we see changes to forms and whatnot. So there will be a mismatch or incorrect guidance in the tax forms addressing deductions, employee retention credit, actually grTc is likely to be fixed quickly, because it’s a it’s a quarter by quarter basis, it’s, it’s gonna be determined on a quarter by quarter basis, it’s relatively relatively easy, and it’s, it’s so and it rolls up with employment taxes, whereas the filing requirements may be a little more challenging. So I would, you know, talk to your tax provider, or I wouldn’t trust the software unless you see some update that it says it takes into account changes to pursuant to the act.
Speaker 2
I have one final question. If you if you don’t mind. You know, we talked about this 25% year over year 19 to 20? How am I going to have to document that? Or in your experience? Or you know, by your best guess? Because I’m not going to hold you to anything? You think I’m gonna have to like sign an affidavit do it? Am I gonna have to provide a p&l to to my banker, and and have that attached to my application? You know, because I’m just curious if I can start assembling I, my paperwork now. Ready to go forward? I mean, I know if I look in my QuickBooks, and I run year over year, it’s going to show, you know, pretty easily that I lost more than 25% in the fourth quarter. I mean, I know that just by knowing my numbers, but what am I going to have to do to prove that in order to qualify? Do you think
Speaker 7
probably Yeah, and in looking at this is a, you know, this is where it’s more of a banker’s question, what would a bank do in order to establish you know, what type of substantiation they’re going to require? And so I think looking at your, you know, your books, and putting together the p&l will, will probably be sufficient.
Speaker 3
And that led me to my final question, which is, what about divisions? You talked about law firms merging. If a division within a firm took a big hit, and another didn’t? Is there any? Is there anything that would allow you or it’s just the overall entity? It’s done at the entity level?
Speaker 7
Yeah, it’s kind of the it’s defined as employer which is it’s it’s the and it’s I don’t want to say entity. It could be several entities. But if they’re all related, and then
Unknown Speaker
that group is Yeah, together.
Unknown Speaker
That whole group. So yeah,
Speaker 3
well, like this has been very illuminating. I think back to when they first round happened. At the beginning of COVID. We were you know, it was all over the place. You felt very helpless, you didn’t really understand what’s going on, to have this clear, concise understanding some nuance of what what to expect next is much appreciated. Josh, and please keep us informed as as things roll out over time.
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Thank you so
Speaker 7
much, Jay. Seth, thanks very much for having me. Excellent.
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Speaker 2
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Jay Ruane
Man said I gotta tell you walking into the last couple of days of the year, I am buoyant. I feel a lot better after having that conversation, getting some answers to those questions that I think will make a difference to the viability of my firm going forward. And just you know, talking about being an up and we talked about the roller coaster over the course of the year, I’m ending on a high note. Because I think you know, this next round of PPP is going to help me what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3
Well, first, I think the headline here, I hope that those that need it can get a second round. But I think that for somebody who’s looking at the tax implications, as Josh mentioned, the original idea was we wouldn’t do that that would be done deductible. When people realize what they would have owed, I think that that, you know, the proverbial shit would have hit the fan. So the fact that that is clarified that we had escrowed monies, tremendous amounts of money that had to be saved, to, to pay to pay taxes on that, to me is the biggest headline, if not another penny comes. So be it. But yeah, to sort of getting some clarification. And it sounds like as we saw last time work in progress. You know, a lot of people went and spent in the eight or 12 weeks everything in order to get things done and didn’t necessarily spend it wisely. So a that’s why the tax, you know, people spent money from the first round in ways they might not have given that it elongated the weeks to spend it. So I’m very thankful that it is it is now not a taxable event, or that you can deduct that money. But I think that the exciting part for us to watch is to see what is eligible for round two, for you know, it sounds like for you, you’re going to be able to show a 25% decrease for many. Right, the fourth quarter is not our issue. Right. So for many of us, we figured out how to retool, and that the fourth quarter may be less than 25%, or even or even a slight gain, but that there are those middle quarters that were devastating. So if somebody went hypothetically, fourth quarter of last year to second quarter of this year, or something like that, those permutations were very different. It’ll be interesting to see. Because with everything they do, you saw this in the first round, everything you do has an unintended consequence. And so here, retail some of those guys kind of Christmas people finally started spending again, maybe, but there were some deadly deadly months in the middle. And how will this play out? We both know that there’s going to be somebody raising their hand saying, Hey, can you push in this direction? And we’ll be certainly checking back with Josh to see, does that definition of what what timeframes you’re looking at get changed over time?
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting to me, we talked a little bit about, about how different sections of the country felt different things. But, you know, one of the thing that I’m I’m learning is from some of our listeners, and viewers who are in the Pei field, normally their fourth quarter is one of their biggest quarters. And this year, they didn’t have that same pressure to be able to settle things. And so I think a lot more people had down fourth quarters, even if they retrenched and did things in the legal space than than others. So I feel bad for you though, because it’s an entity thing. So if you had some growth in some areas, you know, a place like price Bender, which then has a lot of different areas, you may not necessarily be able to show the decline in that fourth quarter,
Speaker 3
you know what, so so be it right? We got money when we needed it. We know that allowed us to keep stability and growth and if we don’t, then it did its job right. If PPP got us to the point where we don’t have we can’t show that, you know, again, money is nice, but like the whole point is you want to see it allocated where it is needed. And look, when I look at the stuff in our home community, the fine dining and hospitality and just seeing the hit that they have taken that that is just you know, devastating. And the idea is they’re not going to say hey, it’s only for that they want to be able to cover things but you’re gonna see it very random PII specifically, one big case may Somebody’s quarter. So a big case cleared. Great. And if it didn’t, and that’s why it’d be interesting, you know, to John Fisher has been very vocal about being with bigger cases, less number of bigger cases, being very concerned about lack of jury trials, you know, what you’re gonna see is, if something settled, you have it, you’ll have a solid fourth quarter, if it didn’t, if they kick the can, which a lot of people are doing, then you’ll be eligible. And so I, you know, we both know that realistically, this will be broadened as people sort of raise their hand and say, hey, why not me in some in some constituency, we’ll get that. So, you know,
Jay Ruane
yeah. And, you know, I’m not a tax professional here. And I certainly, you know, but it would, it would sound to me, like, if you are sitting on a big settlement, that you are waiting to disperse. Maybe you don’t disperse it until January two, so your fourth quarter doesn’t have as big of a bump, as it would have. And I know some people, you know, they want to get that money out of their trust account into their operating accounts, so they can pay off some things. And I mean, we’re only two days away from the end of the quarter. But you know, if it’s still sitting there, and you were thinking about taking the money, and putting it into your operating and you’re at that, you know, 24 to 26% Drop period, maybe it’s better to not have that income during this period, because that that might impact your ability to qualify.
Speaker 3
And look, I’ve always looked at it like, yes, you can handicap it, but we have no idea which way this thing is going, we have pretty good idea. Look, there’s so much more certainty today, we just did a half hour interview. And I feel like we have a solid understanding of where we stand, we did weeks of talks on this. Every week, it was different, it was back and forth, they’ll still be back and forth. But this is we’ve been through the game, we understand what is generally allowed with the you know, for the two and a half times we got that down that only took us you know, eight weeks on the front end. So I think that the you know, you’re sort of identifying where people are to be thinking is, how do you how do you look at your fourth quarter? And are there things that ethically or that you do have a decision as to when to to, to have a contract signed, are you gonna sign something, and now it’s based on income, not on expenses, so you have a little bit less control for most people. But certainly, it’ll be a an exciting run, not as exciting as the last one. But thankfully, not last time, there was so much more uncertainty in the world, we have greater certainty. And I truly hope that if you’re, you know, you’ve, you’ve been the king of of criminal and DUI in a state, you’re going to take the biggest hit in this process. And as you know, we talked a lot along the way about what would be up and what would be down this year. And one of the funny things I saw is, you know, we saw like things like trust in the states and immigration still have great velocity, but the money isn’t always there. So while I don’t see I don’t see a 25% drop. For most people in those areas, I do see like lack of growth. So the fact that there’s that 25% touch point, while I think is great for the people who are most hardest hit, you’re gonna see a lot of people that struggled through this year didn’t have any meaningful growth, maybe a little bit of a dip, but possibly not enough to show 25%.
Speaker 2
And if you’re one of those people who you know, didn’t necessarily have the 25% Dip, but you’re you struggled with some growth, we have a treat for you. Coming up two days from now, on New Year’s Eve, we normally have a live show, but what we’re doing this year is we’re giving you the best stuff. So on Thursday at 3pm, you’re going to be able to see our hack show, which gives you all of our 10 growth hacks for 2021. As well as our software show where we roll down and go through a number of different software things that I know, you can benefit from Seth, I know you’ve started using one of the software’s I see your little cat GIF every day in my feed when you’re wishing somebody happy birthday. And there’s some great tips and tricks that you can get out of both these episodes. And we’re also going to tack on to that our Gerber interview where we talk a little bit about E Myth in your law firm. So Thursday, it’s not going to be a live show, but it is going to be shows that are sort of mashed up together so that you can get the best out of it in preparation for the next year. So if you’re around on Thursday, make sure you tune into our shows and catch those replays.
Speaker 3
You know, we wanted to in 2021 to talk to a number of coaches and we’ve had two on already where they were going to possibly run today. One was maybe New Year’s Day, we give people the opportunity to hear back from from from Kristin and others just so that we can get sort of a running start for for 2020 21 Because I feel like one of the things I’d love to bring value to our to our viewers and listeners is who is out there to help you. You know personally move that you know and that to see to see some of the guys we’ve had on our girls we’ve had on as as coaches. Let’s sort of start that with a running start.
Speaker 2
I love that. I love that idea. So To focus on January, he’s going to be coaches, and maybe some of their coaching clients and talk about how they were able to help them move the needle. I think that’s a great place to take Max growth live in 2021. And of course, we’ll be with you all year, as we help you grow your firm. Seth, any final final thoughts for the year?
Speaker 3
No, it’s been a incredible ride, I’m glad to have had you there as a, as a co pilot, and to be able to walk through this together, you know, from the early days of, you know, as the world ending as we know it to, okay, this is the new normal, you know, pleasure and privilege to be able to, you know, to talk to everybody and get their feedback on what I’ve really enjoyed doing. And I feel like, you know, the things I’ve taken away from my own firm and company have been a tremendous, I feel like, I’ve gotten just as much as I’ve given here.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, for me, I if you were to ask me, How was 2007 for your firm? How was 2014? You know, I have a general sense of what it was, but I don’t think I’m ever going to forget 2020
Jay Ruane
and I take that as sort of a badge of honor that I have persevered. I have made it through with your help with the help of our audience. And I thank you for that. It’s definitely been an exciting year as an entrepreneur and as a law firm owner. There’s a lot of cool stuff out there. I was able to make some great additions to my to my team, make some great systems in our office because you know, I love systems. In fact, I was building one earlier today and documenting it all you know, this is just old habits die hard. But with that, I think we’re gonna leave you he is Seth price. He is in Del Boca Vista. He is enjoying the sun before the New Year. I’m here in cold Connecticut. I am J Ruane and we are maximum growth live. Thank you so much for being with us. Happy New Year, folks. Be on the lookout for our best of shows that are coming up over the next couple of days. And we’ll see you again next time on another edition of maximum growth live. Bye for now.
Speaker 1
Thank you for listening to maximum growth live. Please remember to subscribe to our podcast for the latest episodes and tune in live on Facebook every Thursday for our live show. For more information visit maximum growth live on Facebook or maximum lawyer.com And be sure to share us with your friends
