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Visit MaximumLawyer.com for complete show notes of each podcast episode, tips, hacks and more resources! 

Today on the show we have Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe, co-hosts of the Hustle & Flowchart podcast and Evergreen Profits.

They’ll discuss living through the evolution of WordPress, their Evergreen Content Traffic model, how to integrate affiliate revenue into your business, and delegating tasks to operate in your Zones of Genius.

Some of the strategies they’ll discuss:

-Getting on podcasts

-Getting the right people on your podcast

-Affiliate revenue

-Content marketing and retargeting

-Newsletter promos

-How lawyers can use video content

Hacking’s Hack: Optimize the content you are already producing. Check out Evergreen Profits and learn conversion through retargeting. It will really help you have more intelligent conversations about marketing.

Tyson’s Tip: You need google forms and slack. Each Friday morning I have a feedback form that goes out to all employees that I review over the weekend. It’s really helped things to become more efficient.

Joe’s Tip: Figure out what you love to do. If you don’t like what you’re doing, delegate. Simplify.

Matt’s Tip: There’s a book right now that we’ve been reading: How To Be A Capitalist Without Having Capital.

Evergreen Profits (Joe & Matt’s Website): https://evergreenprofits.com/

Make sure to register for MaxLawCon19, June 6 and 7 in St.Louis.

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You can also go to MaximumLawyer.com or, if you’d prefer, email us at: info@maximumlawyer.com

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Transcript: Maximizing your Content Marketing w/ Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
We have this traffic system in this format, we have this kind of blueprint that shows it off. People are like, Well, how do you apply this to my, you know, brick and mortar business or, you know, we get all these different types of there’s so many businesses out there but like you said, Jim, you can control the the attention of folks that control traffic. It does solve a lot of issues, a lot of things that every business has struggled with, which is essentially qualified leads for the business, then bring them in as clients.

Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum layer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.

Jim Hacking
Welcome back to the maximum lawyer podcast on Japan. Oh, Tyson, I know it’s been a long time since ATM this morning when we recorded our last episode, so I feel like I just got done talking to you. Well, to say that I’m excited about today’s episode would be an understatement. I’ve been following Joe and Matt for a really long time. On their podcast. I’m also with the stuff that they do with James Schramko. Their names are Joe fear and Matt Wolf. And they’re from the Hustle and Flow Chart podcast, listeners of our podcasts have heard me talk about it. And mentioned specific episodes that I find really helpful. I was out at trafficking conversion in San Diego a couple of weeks ago, and I was walking through the hallway. And I got a chance to say hi. And they reminded me or we got talking about their their online course, which Kent and I had done on increasing web traffic and things like that. And it was it is the best course that I’ve come across. I’ve noticed and I’m a course junkie. And I sign up for stuff all the time. And that most of them I never finished. But this is one that we actually finished it was the most practical and explained SEO stuff in a way that even someone who’s been studying it for a long time, I felt like I learned it all over again. So Joe and Matt, we’re really happy to have you guys on the show. Thanks.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Awesome. Yeah, it’s like directing cats now. And there’s four of us on a podcast. You can get that too often. Yeah. So um, Joe and Matt and I have been partnered up for. I mean, we’ve been, at least in the online game working together for what, 12 years or so. Yeah. Oh, seven. It’s been a long time. So we’ve, we haven’t killed each other yet. And we’ve we’ve, we’ve really tested everything I feel like that’s that’s like we’re just experimenters and we love to report our results, our findings, good or bad. And I feel like that’s like a good, I don’t know, Bo to wrap around. What we’ve always done is we’ve we’ve done blogging, that’s kind of how we started, we made our money with ads advertising, and figured out how to drive traffic and you know, some was affiliate stuff, you don’t know what that is, it’s basically making a percentage of someone else’s product by selling it. So we got really good at just creating content driving traffic. And from that you kind of compare up any kind of offer behind that point. And essentially, Matt and I have just been tinkering ever since then. Now it’s kind of molded into having a podcast that course that you said, Jim that yeah, that you took and that was super cool seeing you at TNC as well. Very random as we were walking through. Right, we wanted to meet up. And yeah, I don’t know, it’s just been really fun. We’ve met and I just love to the podcast is our baby. That’s probably the best part of the business. So we just love talking to people like you guys, and we get to do that, you know, twice a week. So it’s really cool.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, I mean, I don’t I don’t really have a ton to add to that. I mean, we we started in oh seven. We started as bloggers, we had a blog in the personal finance space. And we had a blog in the fitness space. And I believe we also had a blog in the organic gardening space. Oh, yes. So we started, we started blogging and trying to make revenue off of selling ad space on our blogs and through affiliate marketing. And then just over the years, we’ve sold courses we’ve set had an agency business we’ve done we’ve sold consulting and coaching we’ve we’ve kind of run the gamut of sort of online business models, we’ve sold, you know, software and WordPress plugins and, and then it you know, just within the last like two and a half, three years, it kind of came back full circle. And we’re back to where we started where most of our business model is creating, like education, free education in the form of blog posts and podcasting and then promoting affiliate products and, you know, getting sponsors and things like that to pay to leverage our audience.

Jim Hacking
Talk to us a little bit about blogging and podcasting back in 2007 2008. I love to remind people how easy we have it now and how hard it was back then talk about the technological changes and sort of how hard things were back when you guys first started 10 or 11 years ago?

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so Well, luckily, in 2007, WordPress did exist by then, which made it a little bit easier. Prior to 2007. I actually, I had a web development business that was sort of a side gig that I ran on the side of my my day job. Prior, I mean, WordPress may have existed, but I didn’t know this existence yet. Where, if you wanted, let’s say, you’re making a website, and you wanted a top menu with like five or six buttons on it, you had to code that top menu onto every single page of the website. And then if you wanted to add a new web new page to your site, you had to code that menu into the top of that page. And then if your menu changed just a little bit, you had to go and change it on every single page that already existed. And you know, the sidebars and things like that, that we kind of take for granted, you used to have to build that on every single page of your website. And then when when we started experimenting, and exploring WordPress, we realized, Oh, we could create kind of this sort of framework around our website once and that all stays static, and only the content changes. And that was sort of the big benefit when WordPress came out was that you didn’t have to edit 15 pages every time you want to make one edit on your site. And then on top of that WordPress had this functionality called WordPress plugins, where you can pretty much infinitely add to the functionality of your website. You know, if we wanted to put a contact form on our website, so people can email us there was a plugin for that. If we wanted to put a something that prevents spammers from leaving spam comments on our blog posts, there was a WordPress plugin for that, you know, the list goes on and on and on. If we wanted to collect emails for our autoresponder there was WordPress plugins for that. So this concept of these plugins that you can just plug into your your WordPress website, made it so that the functionality of your site that there was an infinite amount of possibilities.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
And then in terms of even just taking payments, for instance, like now these are creating sales pages and nice things, the drag and drops kind of came into play. And you know, now that you can just drag and drop or use a template, from some existing thing that’s worked really well and kind of duplicate your efforts. That’s where now it gets fun. Because I don’t know how many pages we have online landing pages and sales pages and different blogs just because now it’s so simple. Once you create this kind of system, this framework foundation for your business online, you can pretty much duplicate your efforts. And you know, pair up with some traffic knowledge, you can then get direct traffic and then take them to something that you control. You can do kind of anything you want with them at that point.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And then and then just just quickly speak into the podcasting side of things. Our first podcast was in 2010. So that was nine years ago came up a few years after the initial blogging, I to be honest, it wasn’t too much of a different world that is now what podcasting is a fairly archaic medium as far as like stats and tracking and data and the technology that exists around podcasting, a whole lot hasn’t changed other than the competition back in 2010. When we first started our podcast, we could get 100 downloads in a day. And we’d be like, in the top 10 on iTunes, you know, now it’s like if you get 100 downloads in a day, you’re not even a blip on the iTunes radar, you know, you can you could get 1000 downloads a day, and you might start to creep into the like, top download lists on iTunes. So the competitiveness of podcasts has definitely increased because there’s just so many more of them now. But the actual, like, technology behind podcasting, since we started has pretty much stayed the same. And, you know, Joe and I talk about this all the time, that’s pretty ripe for disruption and new technology, which is why I think you see, I mean, we’re in the podcasting world. So we’re kind of we kind of know all the news and stuff. But, you know, Spotify just bought gimlet and anchor which are two big podcasting companies. And, you know, iTunes, all of a sudden started putting more focus on to the casting platform. And it’s, it seems to be a medium on the rise that’s sort of ripe for some disruptive technologies to jump in. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux
Incredible to really hear, like someone that was doing it back in 2010. It just seems like so long ago, the podcast that really doesn’t seem like it’s really taken on Steam until recently. So it’s kind of crazy. I mean, I think that early on, when we all first started started out and you said you want to make some money I can’t imagine just fell out of bed and started making money. It probably took me some time. So at what point did you hit your stride and really think you know what, we’re making some money, we’re gonna be able to do

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
this. Yeah, that was Yeah. So Matt and I, when we first started in those blogging days, we’re working at his parents window shutter manufacturing company. So that’s all the interior shutters and that was running that show. I was kind of running the office and then in the spare time we were blogging. So that’s kind of how it all started. And we read the little purple book by Robert Kiyosaki Rich Dad, Poor Dad. So I got the wheels spin. And we’re like, All right, we got kind of capped out on our time here in this day job. Like, that doesn’t fit us at all. Like we we’ve always, I didn’t come from entrepreneur backgrounds, Matt did horse, but we both I think we’re wired similarly. And we’ve always had the same kind of shared goal as to this lifestyle that we saw that we wanted. So blogging started, and that was kind of the where blogging came from. Matt knew some of the backend stuff, I had some content in the health space, and we kind of just collabed on different creative ideas. And affiliate marketing, I think was one of the aha moments for us, was, hey, you know, you can pair up this content and then promote someone else’s product or software or whatever physical product in the mail and get paid as part of the sale or maybe the lead now a CPA. And you know, there’s a lot of ways you can make money online, of course, a week. I think that was like the aha moment like, Oh, alright, so we see this amount of people coming in on these blogs, these assets we have online, and we more or less can control the direction of their attention. And that’s what we realized is like, okay, we can get their attention. We’re leading with value, same stuff we’re doing now with the podcast. And we just pair it up with a relevant offer. And that’s where we started looking into things like ClickBank, and there’s all these other places online, you can see what affiliate offers are available to you. And I think it was around that point where it’s kind of it all really started to click. And then from there, we kind of, I think we dabbled a little bit, we both quit our jobs actually the same year. And Matt went a little bit more the WordPress side where I went more of the client facing side. So during that point, you know, we’ve always helped each other but we kind of like went to what our comfort zones are a lot more people focus. I did a lot of client projects, video production for some big sale, some big launches in this space. Whereas, Matt, you created the WordPress classroom. Ironically, it was all about how to really do all this stuff in WordPress. And he made some training around it.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it’s no coincidence that in 2007, we started our blog in 2007 is also the year The Four Hour Workweek came out. That was a big catalyst for us to get into blogging and start experimenting and kind of have an online presence because we were exposed to Tim Ferriss and Tim Ferriss was a big blogger, and we started reading his blog, and we went, we can do this, you know, so we started, we kind of modeled him, I think the first income we ever made was actually off of just putting AdSense on our blog, creating, creating content and just putting, you know, Google Adsense off the blog. And if somebody clicked on one of the links, Google will pay you like, two pennies or something. And we had, we had enough traffic that I think we got up to where we were making like 50 bucks a month to doing that. And that was like the first income I feel like we were ever making online was just getting AdSense money off the blog. And then we found this concept called Text Link ads where people who were trying to like game the system in SEO would go and buy backlinks on other people’s websites. And we’re like, oh, we could capitalize on that. So we actually started selling backlinks on our website to help people with their SEO. This was before, like all sorts of slabs were happening in Google was saying, No, you can’t do that. But so we started selling links on our website for people that wanted to do SEO, and then that added more pennies to our business per month. And then eventually, we discovered affiliate marketing and went, Okay, this is this is the

Unknown Speaker
play. So, Tyson and I started our podcast, not nearly as long as you did, we’re getting up to three years. And we only do once a week. But we have a nice little group of about 1000 people in our little Facebook group. And they’re almost all law firm owners or people who are about to start their own law firm. And so I’d love it if part of our discussion could be sort of directed to them as we talk about the different areas. And so the first issue, given your expertise that I wanted to talk about was was traffic and sort of the Evergreen profit model and, and I’m wondering, what are your thoughts? Like, I believe that more traffic fixes a lot of things like the more traffic you have, the more consults you’re gonna have, which means there’s gonna be more attorneys that you have. So talk to us more clients are gonna have talked to us about how traffic fixes a lot of things and then maybe some misconceptions that lawyers who are working with SEO people are trying to do SEO themselves mistakes that they make things like that.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
We have this traffic system in this format, we have this kind of blueprint that shows it all and people are like well, how do you apply this to my you know, brick and mortar business or, you know, we get all these different types of there’s so many businesses out there but like you said, Jim, you can control the the attention of folks that control traffic, it does solve a lot of issues, a lot of things that every business has struggled with, which is essentially qualified leads for their business and then bring them in as clients and sell them somehow. So the way that we do it is is leading with a lot of value, it’s always very content forward. So the podcast written for us, it’s that is our big content play. And then that can you know that audio or video that we record can be repurposed into all sorts of different things, social media posts, more branding exposure, the idea is to kind of put content and be where your prospects are living online. And you pair that up. So if you have great content, and we, you know, the training there, but we actually show how you can spot some gaps in Google. So for SEO, you can kind of really leverage what your competitors are doing. That’s one of the little hacks that we do every single day for ourselves. And a lot of folks get that aha moment is like, there’s actually gaps on Google where you can, you can see what your competitors are doing or see some places that you might be ranking online, but you just didn’t know you were pretty close to the first page. And there might be, you know, 5000 people that say, searching for whatever keyword that is per month, if you can rank yourself within that zone on the first page, or somewhere, you know, around there where people are clicking into the likelihood that they’re going to go to your content, very high. And that’s just one element. There’s a lot of paid stuff we do as well. But the idea is content, and then pair it up with where the attentions at online right now.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, as far as the concept of traffic, solving a lot of problems. Well, quality, you know, the right traffic solves a lot of problems, it’s, there’s ways to send a lot of traffic to anything that won’t do much for you. But if you get the right traffic, the sort of perfectly qualified people to your site, that’s where the real magic happens. And so to answer part of your question, where you’re asking, like, what kind of mistakes do people make, you know, one thing I see a lot of people do is they’ll just go straight to like, everybody talks about Facebook ads these days is like the this sort of magic bullet traffic source. And it’s really not, you know, if, if you just go to Facebook, and you set up an ad, and it drives to a landing page, or you’re trying to collect leads, you’re probably going to have a hard time getting some traction. You know, I don’t know the lawyer space super, super well, but I can kind of run like a little bit of a theoretical scenario. Now, if you’re like a lawyer that specializes in a certain area, let’s say, Oh, I don’t know immigration law or something, let’s say you specialize in that area of law, most people who are interested or need help in that area, they’re probably not gonna go straight for a, a paid solution, they’re gonna start to do a little bit of research, a little bit of digging, and, you know, searching their options, first, right, they’re gonna go to Google, and they’re gonna see what they can find out before they start going and looking, you know, who they’re gonna give money to, to help them with the solution. Now, if you can be that content that they find, when they have that problem, you are now their expert, you’re the one that they discovered as the expert on this niche. And once somebody reads that content, now you can retarget them on Facebook, you can retarget them on Google Display Network. That’s when the advertising stuff really kicks into gear is, once you’ve put content in front of them, that shows you as the expert and sort of scratches a little bit of the itch. Now you’re gonna go and follow up with them with your actual offers or your actual landing page where you’re trying to capture that lead.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, what Matt, just to clarify for retargeting. Anybody who doesn’t know what that is? That’s essentially a technology, it’s a pixel that you can put on your website, a little piece of code, from things like Google and Facebook, where if someone lands on your content, so on your WordPress site, let’s say, and this is why, you know, he said, it’s very important to stick them to content that you control, you can now allow that pixel to basically land on that person’s browsers. So if they click away from that piece of content, and maybe go to another website, a banner can show up with your branding, even on places like Wall Street Journal’s CNN, or just any other little blog out there. All these websites have AdSense running. And this is a, you know, part of this is all it’s all tied in with Google, they pretty much own a bunch of different properties. So you’re leveraging Google’s outlay, their whole infrastructure. So your brand will show up on these places, if they’ve come from your content, they’re already showing engagement that they like your content in some way. Facebook has the same technology. So you could show up on all sorts of places and Facebook, Instagram, and you know, there’s a bunch of other little caveats, messaging, a lot of that cool technology, and obviously, you have email follow up. All of these are different things that you can do and follow up with that just increases the likelihood that you can bring them back with more content and maybe give them a free consultation, some kind of free advice, a free cheat sheet or something like that about, call it immigration law. And then they can you know, call or inquire for further information.

Tyson Mutrux
So let’s say you’re driving the traffic And you’re getting the traffic you want. I’m just curious, how do you integrate that affiliate marketing guy? It’s I’ve always been curious about that. How you, how do you get started? I guess it probably should start with this. So how do you get started with affiliate marketing? That you want to go with this one?

Unknown Speaker
Sure. So with affiliate marketing, I mean, we we essentially follow the exact same model that we mapped out. So I’m drawing a blank on the exact terms, but you’ve got there’s like levels of awareness. When you’re trying to sell something, right, you’ve got like the, the problem unaware problem aware, solution unaware solution away, I think, I think those are the four levels, I’m done. Like I’m trying to blank on the exact wording of them. But basically, we’re going after the people that aren’t necessarily product aware, but they’re the problem aware. So for example, if we’re selling something where you can embed opt in forms on your website, because we are business models, we promote a lot of software products, as affiliates. That’s kind of our bread and butter. So let’s say that we’re promoting a forum that allows you to put like an email opt in box on your website. And maybe people don’t know what the best solution is. So they make Google something like what’s the best opt in box builder, you know, I’m not sure the exact wording they use, we try a whole bunch of different variations. But let’s say somebody’s searching to find those, we would actually make a piece of content that maybe compares two or three of the best options. And then by the end of the post, we’re going to try to steer them towards our favorite option, that that’s probably the one that we use, and we recommend the most. And we’ll put that piece of content out there, we’ll buy paid traffic to that content, we’ll try to SEO that content. And when people view that content, then they’re going to start seeing retarget ads on Google on Facebook on these various platforms to our suggested solution. So you know, let’s say there’s, we actually promote a tool called convert box, which is actually a tool that you can put those opt in forms on your site with. And that would be our suggested solution. So maybe they read our article comparing those three. And sometimes we’ll get some people to buy right off that article directly. But those that don’t buy right off that article directly, we’re going to retarget them because that content is on our website, we’re going to retarget them straight to the offer of the product that we want them to take, if that makes sense. Anything you want to add to that?

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, well, I want to also just go back to why you would even want to do affiliate marketing in your business. So as a lawyer, or just it doesn’t matter, anybody. Affiliate marketing, we choose to go pretty deep into it just because we have a pretty established platform. And we know what people want from us. So we’re, we’re kind of generalists for on a purpose, because we love to experiment and test new things. We talked to so many people on the podcast. So our job is to essentially direct people to a solution that they might want to dig deeper into. And in this case, typically, it’s software. And you know, through our content, we can segment these people to a relevant offer. So it’s not, there’s no friction there, they’re kind of expecting, you know, something more down the wormhole. But going back to why you’d even do it. So a lot of folks, a lot of businesses have a great offer, you might do really well with your law practice or any kind of offer you have online or offline. But affiliate marketing, marketing could be a great add on to your business it could bolt on. It’s another profit center that your that your customers might be interested in. It could be books, it could be other resources, things that you don’t want to sell, manufacture or do customer support for, but you have a relationship with some partner out there. And maybe you do a deal. It doesn’t have to be an official program, but you could just do a partnership type thing and little JV track, you know, broker deals to each other. That’s technically affiliate marketing in our eyes, anything you can do to serve your client base and give them a little add on, in addition to what you’re already offering them. Just make a little percentage of that. That brokering pretty much is

Jim Hacking
really cool. It’s great guys, I want I want to run a quote pass you and get your reaction to it. Here’s the quote, work in our zones of genius. prioritize our two dues and delegate the rest.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Resin is so deep.

Jim Hacking
Right, it’s on your about page. What does that mean?

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Oh, man, I feel like we’re constantly refining this. So we’re zones of genius for us. I feel like our it’s constantly learning, constantly experimenting. And podcasting has become our outlet to do that. So it has become our zone of genius. I would say that is the thing that we’re passionate about the whole merch or the podcasting space, the potential of how many lives you can affect through podcasting, very intimate type thing. A lot of folks will just you know, spend a arcades over an hour at a time with us. I mean, we can’t ask for that in our ears. doesn’t make it possible on YouTube, Facebook, Google any other platform out there? We’ve been delegating the rest. Yeah, we created a really solid team around us in the last I would say, I don’t know, 18 months or so, and then dialed in our system so we can delegate the rest, all that stuff, the minutia that that, you know, doesn’t get us out of bed. But when we know that, you know, podcasting is on the agenda, or learning something new or talking to cool people like you guys, we do a lot of guest shows as well. Or guesting on other podcasts. That’s the stuff that pumps us up. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker
we spent a lot of time in our business just kind of trying to handle everything ourselves, you know, for me, like customer support was such a drain on my energy, because it’s, it does happen, Joe corrected me last time I brought this up. But most of the people that are coming to customer support are coming with the negative stuff. It’s not like the majority of our customer support our people going, Hey, I just wanted to email support to tell you, I love your products and what you’re doing. Usually the stuff that comes through customer support is the less than happy people. So you know, I would spend time in customer support. And I would start to get this impression that man, everybody hates us, everybody hates our products, because that’s all you see all day. And that was just like such a drain. And so that was one of the first things we had to get rid of us doing in our business. You know, for me, I’m not a big like networker type guy, I go to like one or two events per year, and then I’m kind of a hermit the rest of the time because I’ve, you know, I’m just, I’m a very introverted person most of the time. So that’s not my zone of genius to be out there making connections and rubbing elbows with people. And that is sort of Joe’s forte. And on the flip side, I like having my heads down my head down my headphones in working on a webpage, coding stuff, trying to solve like technical problems on our website, I’ll get into my flow state with that, and I will lose hours just kind of like building out new web pages and landing pages and writing content and things like that. And that’s really not Joe’s zone of genius, you know, so Joe, Joe will get sort of like antsy, if he’s at his computer for more than like, a 45 minute window at a time, you know, and me I can I can go 10 hours and not even realize that an hour had passed. And so that’s really what that operating in the zones of genius really means is what gets us into our flow state that gets us excited to actually get stuff done in our business. That’s really the zones of genius that we like to operate in.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah. And actually, it’s to piggyback on what you said about customer service, because that is a big drain on a lot of businesses in general. And listening to feedback out there. I was listening to Conan O’Brien, I think he was talking to Stephen Colbert and his new podcast. And that was something I think they both agreed on that they just put the blinders on have any feedback on social media? I mean, just imagine politics, you know, like, that can completely you’re always gonna have these people who are loud online, you have this kind of bass view, people forget that they’re talking to another human on the other side of the screen. So a lot of folks, business owners are, you’re trying to, you know, you’re trying to create a good experience and put the value out there to everybody who seems like they’re interested. But inherently, you’re going to have this it’s a very tiny percentage, but that tiny percentage can poison the entire well, and spin you out, you get a 30 comments within that one that’s like, I didn’t think you didn’t like and then your brain just goes haywire. And he starts to

Tyson Mutrux
it’s like that, you know, Friday afternoon, right before the weekend. You see that comment? just ruined your entire weekend kind of thing. Yeah. So Jim and I were talking a while back about this. And I’m just curious what your all’s feedback is on this? So can you use going on other people’s podcasts as a strategy to drive clicks and listeners and things like that?

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Oh, yeah. Big,

Unknown Speaker
big time. I mean, that’s the main reason we go on a lot of other people’s podcasts, and there’s multiple, multiple things, you know, with a lot of podcasts, you’re, you’re typically spending a lot of time listening to people. So you, you almost build like a little bit of a relationship with whoever you’re listening to the podcast with, right? So whoever listens to this podcast, you know, they’re going to they’re going to be spending some time hearing our philosophies, hearing our, our business strategies, hearing what we do, and those are kind of the, the, that’s actually the best traffic because we’ve sort of indoctrinated ourselves to those people, they now know who we are, they have some insight into our personality and what we stand for and the types of things we teach. That’s the ideal type of traffic we want to send to our site. Now, a lot of podcasts will go on, you know, it doesn’t send tons and tons of traffic. You know, we haven’t had a podcast yet where as a result of that podcast, we got, you know, 2000 new visitors to our website, but the the traffic that we do get from being on podcast, it’s just very, very, very high quality, people that have spent a lot of time listening to us. And you know, we’ll probably give you a resource link at the end if people want to learn more about art some of our stuff How to G’s. And that’s one way one of the ways we’ll drive people back to our site. Another thing is, when we go on podcast, when they publish show notes for those podcasts, that’s a backlink to our site. So that’s helping with SEO. So we’re getting SEO backlinks every single time we’re going on somebody else’s podcast, as well as direct traffic from people who listen to the podcast. Yeah,

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
and that’s a something that I have noticed because I’ll occasionally pop into our support I interface with our support gal, Sarah social pipe over good comments. That’s why I think she filters a lot of the negative salty, the good stuff that Matt doesn’t always see. And, and I’ve noticed that a lot of the folks who listen to our podcast, a podcast listeners who are in our, our, in our sphere here, and Jim, you’re one of them is is they’re some of our best clients ever. And they’re, you know, you don’t have to worry about selling. So it’s a lot of that friction, the sales friction that a lot of folks have to deal with in their business is kind of eliminated through the podcast, it’s all the trust building that you’ve established, or that we’ve established, going on other shows, that’s been the best. And it’s not a flood of traffic, but it’s high quality, the people who come in and check our stuff out. And we tag a lot of folks, you know, on the pages that we when we go on to shows and offer a freebie we can see how many people are coming in and, and we can actually look back at our database like, oh, this client that spent a you know, it’s called 1000 bucks came from this show. So we can kind of backtrack and see how our efforts have have done and it’s actually really impressive. It might not be loads are like, Oh, wow, they are they’re bringing the cash down, they’re willing to actually spend more money with you. After you do that effort of going on other shows. And the networking is top notch. I mean, that’s the thing with podcasting as a whole is a lot of trust building, but the network you can establish even just going on other shows not hosting your own show. It’s just unreal. hosting our own shows the best though, to establish these networks. And you guys can attest to that. I’m sure, too. Yeah,

Jim Hacking
I remember John James said once that the best way to meet someone that you want to meet is to invite them on the show. And he’s absolutely right. And speaking of that, I’m looking at your list of all the hosts are the guests that you’ve had on your podcast. And I’m wondering if you have any tips for Tyson and I on how to get sort of the people that you want onto your show. And then I also wanted to mention that I think my favorite episodes so far, and you guys have done this a couple of times are these what you call therapy sessions. Those, I think those are just really like, I think you could almost make those into a spin off podcast.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, we’ve been told that. Those are some of them. It’s crazy, because it’s an interview show. Yeah, as the probably the 90% of the show. And then then in support and all the different channels because we’re actively trying to get people to talk to us, too. That’s the other thing with podcasting is we’re always directing them to our emails, you know, our support email, we’re like, we do read these trust stuff. And, yeah, it’s just, it’s just really interesting how that all works. But they’re all talking about like, hey, we want to hear more of you guys. You know, your guests are great. But like, let’s let’s dig in. And that’s where the therapy sessions kind of came in. And you’ll expect more of those that might be a spin off one day. Yeah, but attracting big guests, Matt, I’m gonna answer that one.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so the therapy sessions, that’s been probably the biggest feedback we’ve gotten when we asked a handful of people, you know, what, what episodes do you like? What, what what do you want to hear more from us? Almost every single time we ask that question in the responses, you should do more of those duet episodes where you don’t bring in guests, you know, I love the guest episodes, but those behind the scenes of like, what’s going on in your business and lives, like a lot of people seem to really enjoy those. And, you know, it’s hard for us to wrap our brains around sometime. Because, you know, you don’t feel like we’re talking about anything special. We just kind of feel like we’re talking about like what’s going on in our daily lives. And some of the behind the scenes stuff were were tested out in our business. But that’s been pretty common feedback. And then as far as getting guests on our show, the nice thing about podcasts is there’s like the snowball effect that can happen, you get some some big names on that some people recognize and then you can kind of point to those big names to say, hey, look, we’ve had this person and this person and this person on do you want to be on as well and you start to get people that want to be on your podcast, just because now they’ve now they’re being sort of associated with some of these other guests. Right? So you know, we’ve we’ve had, like, you know, Perry Marshall on who’s a big name in this sort of digital marketing space, and Roland Frasier, who is one of the creators of the trafficking Conversion summit event that we were talking about earlier in the show, and, and some of these names, and so when you have those names on, and we go and tell guests that we haven’t had yet paid, look who’s been on the show, it makes it easier for for us to get those. And then as far as getting those people it’s just been it’s just been the networking game that we’ve been doing for 12 years. I mean, one of our first guests that we have On our show within the first, like 10 was a guy named Amit Shah, who was big in the digital marketing world for a really, really long time, he sort of moved out of that space now. But Joe used to be his business partner, you know, and we had, we had a guy named Josh Bartlett on there who’s pretty big in the software world, he made a tool called Thrive cart and easy video player and a handful of other things. And he used to be my business partner. So you know, we have we have these connections that we’ve made over the years, we get them on. And luckily, some of those names have helped us get other names on that know who these people are. And it’s just kind of been this snowball, but the best advice that I can give on getting guests is, it never hurts to just ask, I mean, I would say, nine out of 10 times, some of the biggest guests that we’ve had on are people that we just sent cold emails to thinking, we’re never gonna hear a response from them. And sure enough, two or three days later, they’re like, Sure, let’s do it.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
And it’s, you’d be surprised who’s listening to your shows, too. And this goes for any podcasters. But probably you guys as well, I’m sure is, you know, you have these unless you’re prompting your your listeners to respond to you, then you don’t really hear who your best listeners are, the ones reading in are probably your best listeners, they probably have suggestions for guests that they would like to hear. And then that just gives you some ideas on how you can then go about getting those people. And that’s really what we’ve done is we just tap our network like crazy. We always ask for referrals. Whenever we, after a show, we always follow up and ask hey, is there someone that you know, that you think would be a great fit for the show? Usually, you know, every single week, we’re introduced to at least two or three people who really fit that that Mark? Yeah, there’s so many people that it’s fun.

Unknown Speaker
Another another really good tip, if you want to get really good people on your podcast is find other podcasters to interview on your podcast, because other podcasters have large networks. So we interview a lot of people that also have podcasts, and almost without fail at the end of the episode after we hit record, they’re like, hey, look through my past guest list. If you want a connection to anybody, just let me know. And we say likewise to you. And so, you know, sort of building a community with other podcasters is a great way to get guests because you can sort of intro each other to to pass guests on each other shows.

Tyson Mutrux
This is just gold. Jim, this is good stuff.

Jim Hacking
I love it, especially for us.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. I’m just curious. So where are you heading? Where are you going to head with this? I mean, what’s what’s the goal of the business and 1520 30 years? And what do you what are you gonna do with it.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
So I would say in the next step, here, just setting this, these timelines down today, a little bit more concrete is in the next, I’d say under six months, but we’re shooting for aggressively three months, is to really get out of selling our information or training. So we can allow ourselves to give away even more for free. That’s honestly, and I know, it might sound like a marketing stick or any of that stuff. But it’s like, we don’t want to sell any more of our own stuff online. We want to provide the value. And then you know, go deeper in on this affiliate game, honestly, is that is what works really well. It’s what people ask of us. And there are people asking about our trainings, but ideally, we want to give it away for free. So in the back end, you know, you can always we can monetize that that way. I’m the bigger outside of that investments. You know, we’re really starting to dabble into multifamily housing, real estate, we have a lot of people in our network who, ironically have those type of businesses. So like, selfishly, we’ll bring on people on our podcast of the places we see ourselves edit in the next, you know, 510 years plus. And those guys are gonna give us preferential treatment and usually take us under their wing as mentors, and real estate’s one of those biggies. And there’s a few other things as well.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, really, to, to best describe where we’re going with the business is we’re trying to create a media company. So when you think of like traditional media, if you think of like a, like a TechCrunch blog, or like Huffington Post, or one of these more sort of additional Sorry, I was

Jim Hacking
thinking of evergreen profits, because I wanted to talk about it at the end. And then Joe started talking those damn

Unknown Speaker
autoplay videos, who does that. But we’re trying to build basically a media company like like a TechCrunch, or like, you know, like a Huffington Post or something where the goal is, all of the content that we’re out there providing is free content, its podcast, its blog post, it’s probably bringing in other podcasts under our network. We actually have two podcasts. Now we have one called Hustle and Flow shorts, which is smaller bite sized chunks from our longer show. You know, so we’re building like a little podcast network of a handful of shows. We’ve got a handful of blogs around the internet in mostly the digital market. In space, we actually still have our health blog that we’re trying to build this, this media company where we’re just getting attention, we’re just, we’re just getting as much eyeballs and attention on these podcasts and these blog posts and these as these video content. And then we want to monetize through sponsorships, affiliate marketing, and then, you know, rolling the money we make off of these sponsorships and affiliate marketing into investments like real estate, that’s sort of our big vision, that by the end of the year, ideally, we actually won’t be selling any more courses, we’ll probably wrap those up, just be totally focused on building this giant media brand that we can sell sponsorships and promote affiliate products through.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, and one more thing to add to that is in the kind of, I guess, shorter to medium range vision is to go deeper in the podcasting space as a whole. So creating part of our, you know, our this kind of platform that we’re building, also bringing in a lot of different podcasters, who don’t know how to monetize, and know how to drive traffic and all that, because we noticed, we’ve attended a couple podcasts, conferences now and have spoken on monetization panels, how we make money outside of just sponsorships. And it’s literally blowing people’s minds. And we’re like, Oh, my God, and a lot of these people will have millions, or maybe not always millions, but under the 1000s of listeners per month. And they’re still working a day job, they don’t know how to really harness those listeners into something that pays them, and also gives more value to their subscribers. And we’re just noticing there’s a big gap. Right now there’s a big, it’s an archaic space. And unfortunately, a lot of those people don’t know, just basic marketing skills online. So we want to give them the resources not packaged up and more products, sell to them, but give them these resources. So they see what’s going to happen here. And of course, they can choose to dive in deeper and, you know, can be a network that we maybe partner up together with or, you know, other affiliate tools and software’s that can help them actually create a good lifestyle business out of the podcast.

Jim Hacking
Yeah, so Tyson, I have this podcast we were on about three years ago, you know, I think we were we are only getting, I don’t know about 700 downloads an episode. It’s grown. And there’s certainly been a lot more engagement in the Facebook group. We also last year, we just said, Hey, let’s do a conference. So we did a conference and 70 people came and I’d say 65 of them came from out of town. And this year, we’re doing it again in June. And we already have about 120 people come in. So it’s it’s you know, slowly growing. And this one is? What should we be thinking about? What should Tyson IV thinking about with maximum lawyer?

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Hmm, I think you’re doing a lot of good stuff already. With the SEO, you were saying you have your team members, I believe you said, you’re in San Diego, your team is actually doing a lot of this stuff, you’re doing a lot of stuff on LinkedIn. I mean, really, if you could just really harness and I don’t know how far along you are with getting the traffic and getting all that stuff really honed in on your own domain, you know, your blog, or website on your own. But really giving that value all that stuff we’ve been talking about is creating a good system to consistently put out content spot these gaps that your target market that go to these conferences are possibly living, you know, maybe if you can backtrack and see where they came from, do more of where they came from, you know, try to target more of those folks. And maybe it’s a platform keyword or type of topic that they’re really interested in. Let me think a little bit further. Maybe, Matt, you have another?

Unknown Speaker
I mean, you can you can anybody who’s listening to your podcast right now that goes to like your show notes page. You can definitely be retargeting them to the event landing page. If you’re not doing that already. I think that would be really powerful, you’ll get a lot of listeners to jump over to that page. You know, another thing you can be doing that’s it’s not quite as relevant to the event that you’re you’re doing. But as far as, you know, getting leads for getting leads for the actual practices and stuff. You can actually be segmenting the people that listen to your podcast based on the topics of the podcast. So if you have an episode that’s specific to like immigration law are a handful of episodes that are specific to that topic. Anybody who goes to the shownotes pages around those, you can create a retargeting audience in Facebook, around people who listened to those specifically, and then retarget them to a lead capture page. And then maybe other topics that you talk about that are outside of your expertise in this world. Maybe Maybe there’s some brokering that could go on where you retarget them to a page where you capture the lead, but then broker it over to somebody else. You know, that’s that’s one avenue that you can go down with, with what you’re doing with the podcast now as well. I’m not sure what you’re doing as far as capturing leads and growing a mailing list from your podcast. But one of the things that’s just been a complete game changer for our podcast, and it’s just really massively grown our list building is we make a companion for every single episode. that we do, which is essentially like a Cliff’s Notes to that episode. So if you listen to an hour long episode on our podcast, we actually have somebody on our team that their only job is to listen to that podcast, take notes on the podcast, and then share those notes with people. And so that’s how we’re actually growing our list off of our podcast is at the front of the podcast, we say, Hey, do you want the Cliff’s Notes version of this podcast, go opt in on our site, and we’ll get it to you. We’re still working through our backlogs of previous episodes. But that’s been really really big for growing our list is just driving podcast listeners to a place where they can give us their email in exchange for essentially getting the notes for the podcast. And then you can direct that list however you want as well, including telling me about your event or you know, trying to capture them as leads for your your practice or things like that. I got a few more,

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
I got a few more ideas. PS PS is in your emails. I mean, just subtle PS is just reminders. I don’t know how often we send emails we send, typically six per week. And it sounds like a lot, but people love it. It’s all very content forward.

Jim Hacking
It’s good stuff. Your your emails are one of the few that I get that I actually read. That’s awesome.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
That’s articles. Yeah, so and you’ll see that we do this as PMS is two different things, you know, Hustle and Flow shorts, we’ll do that with a new podcast, or we’ll do we’ll take him to to anything else that’s kind of hot at that point. events would be great. You can always do like a promo, like a four day style email promo as well, you’ll see us do this, whenever we want to do a promo for a product or an affiliate offer anything else you could do kind of a four day, hey, if you get in now you’re gonna get the best price or an extra bonus upgrade or something when you go to the event. And typically, you know, there’s a very systematic way of doing that. But you make it feel like an online events in email last days, closing day you’re harping on the scarcity. But again, you’re giving them the benefits, a little bit of content, but those are a little bit more salesy to try to get them to take an action. Typically, that’s a price raising type thing, or a special bonus offer that you have out there. And then again, if you have any other lawyers or people in law, who want to be a good GV for this, you can ask them, and they can have a percentage of the, you know, the ticket price. If you do that, or maybe give them a bonus, some kind of kickback, get others to kind of help spread the word for you.

Tyson Mutrux
is amazing. It’s really, so I’ve got to ask this question, because Ken had to jump off. And he’s a big part of the podcast, he this is for you, Joe, he says, Since you have a background in video, what types of video content that you find are the most engaging and how he recommends lawyers? Or how you recommend lawyers can apply

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
it? Good question. Yeah, so the videos I did were a lot more sales videos, but we do a lot of shorter videos now that are content focused to try to get them to take an action maybe further down the line. So it’s not so direct. But we what we’d love to do is on Facebook, we keep them with about three minutes long, and maybe a subtle call to action at the end. But there we love like the map the way Matt and I do it is very lifestyle focused, it’s very, you know, you’re literally just getting your iPhone out or some kind of cell phone and it’s not overly polished stuff. There’s a time in place for that. But that’s typically if you’re really I don’t know, it’s almost like a it depends on the niche. Obviously, there’s professional you guys, you know, probably a lot more professional than us just you know, hanging out like, maybe not though, it’s probably better if you weren’t already met Jim in person, you get a shaggy beard at the time and but people love lifestyle and behind the scenes videos. And that’s what we’ve seen the best results from with a subtle call to action, nothing too pushy.

Unknown Speaker
So I’m gonna add something here real quick. So the, you know, the the concept that we taught, we talked about earlier, where you drive, you know, people who search for specific content, you put your content in front of them using Google ads, and then if they view that content, then you retarget them on Facebook, you can actually follow that exact same concept purely on Facebook, if you want. And the way you would do that is you would create like little short videos, two to three minute videos with just good content that teaches people something. So maybe here’s a tip about immigration law. And I don’t know how you do the exact targeting, but you guys might have some ideas of potential targets on Facebook that these videos would be relevant to you put these videos on Facebook circulated as an ad. And then you can actually do targeting and Facebook of anybody who’s watched 50% or more of this specific video shown this ad. So you can make a video with like three minutes of content and anybody who watches a minute and a half or more of that content. They’ve essentially just raised their hand and said I’m interested in this topic. And then anybody who’s viewed that 50% or more, you make a second to add that now targets them to your actual lead capture page or whatever your offer page is.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, the idea would be dripping, dripping the content out. And then the more engagement they do, just watching, say, 50%, then you know, they’re interested enough might as well let them go down deeper down the wormhole. And maybe it’s a little bit more targeted to your offer, you know, it’s like surface level, get them kind of hooked, and you know, with value and then lead them into maybe more of the benefits of why they should work with you, with a stronger call to action. And then obviously, you could string it into other things as well. Maybe deeper into the actual offer itself with a click, you know, hard clothes, or a call me now kind of thing or special offers.

Tyson Mutrux
I am gonna wrap though, I want to remind everyone to get the Facebook group get involved there, a lot of action, a lot of lot going on there. And if you don’t mind, go to iTunes, wherever you get your podcast, give us a five star review really does help spread the word. Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?

Unknown Speaker
Guys, I knew having you on the show that a lot of what you were gonna say was gonna be over my head and my head spinning. I’m sure Tyson’s is, do I mean we’re just so not doing even the basic hitting and you know, swinging and hitting that you guys are doing just as far as optimizing all the things that we’re doing. So I think that’s my major takeaway. And so I really appreciate you coming on the show. And I’m just gonna plug it for my hack of the week evergreen profits, it really is the most simple and the cool thing is, it’s like they take a new business that they want to start building a page for and traffic for. And they walk you through this system that they have for bouncing you around with Google ads and Facebook ads and retargeting for conversion, the purposes of conversion as opposed to retargeting for grabbing initial attention. And I think that it’s definitely money well spent. When I got it, it was $297. I know there’s been talk about it becoming like a monthly thing. I’m not sure exactly how it goes. But if you guys want to sort of up your game on how to really think this through, I think it’ll really help you not only if you decide to do it on your own, but also if you’re dealing with people who want you to pay them to do it, you’re gonna be able to have a much more intelligent conversation having gone through the course. So thank you guys for making the time for us. We really appreciate it.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Jason. I guess this has been fun. Thank you. Course.

Tyson Mutrux
Jimmy do we get? Are we gonna make them give us a tip and hack of the week? Or what do

Jim Hacking
they have one? I think they’ve given us a ton already.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, Danielle says spill the beans. Anything else? I know. That’s

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
what I’m thinking. I’m like, This has actually been in my head the whole time. Like, what is the one thing but you guys you

Jim Hacking
guys always asked for a book. So how about a book that you guys recommend to people? We can do it that way too.

Unknown Speaker
I got I’m gonna I’m gonna say it before Joe gets a chance to there’s a book dammit, Joe. There’s a book right now that you’ve been reading. It’s so good. And Joe has it on screen how to be a capitalist without any capital by Nathan locka. We’ve just been devouring that book. It’s it’s basically like a new version of The Four Hour Workweek for like the new sort of gig economy and you know, some side hustles you can do

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
that book is just really killer. And I would say just overall just figure out what you love to do. I mean, yes, the thing that a lot of folks like Eddie mindset guys, but it’s like few. It really like you’re in deep in your business and you’re hating what you’re doing or you don’t like something in there. We are all about systems and delegations or just feel it, or selling or whatever it might be. Because I mean, that’s, I’d say over the last couple of years has been all about simplification. And you know, life is short so Mazal focus on doing the stuff you love and hanging out with people you love. And then the

Unknown Speaker
the best book down the vein of what Joe is talking about is a book called clockwork by Mike McCalla wits. Great, great book about just like simplifying your business and figuring out how to sort of back yourself out as much as you can back yourself out of a business.

Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe
Yeah, clockwork by Mike McCalla wits and how to be a capitalist without any capital by Nathan locka.

Tyson Mutrux
Awesome. All right, I’m gonna give my tip of the week. I’ve been doing something for about three or four months now. It’s pretty cool. It’s super easy to talk about simple. It’s really easy. It’s all you need is you need Google Forms and slack. And so each Friday morning, I have a feedback. I guess a little survey that goes out to employees every Friday morning, it goes out to virtual assistants and the employees. Every Friday morning, they fill it out. And then Monday or over the weekend, I review their answers. So I get feedback as to how things are going, what the bottlenecks are, what’s going well, what’s not, it’s really helped improve efficiency. So I really, highly recommend doing that supersedes. It’s super easy to do. If you’ve got G Suite, or any sort of Gmail address, you can use Google Forms. It’s really easy to do. So. That is my tip of the week. Joe, Matt, thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing. It’s been a lot of fun. So thanks so much. Thanks, guys. It’s been an honor. We’ll see you.