Addressing Trauma and Mental Health in the Legal Profession with Maria Parker


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Are you a lawyer who is struggling with keeping your head above water? In this podcast episode, Jim and Tyson interview Maria Parker, a training and development consultant specializing in trauma-informed practice. Maria shares her journey from mental health nursing to psychotherapy, her work with legal professionals, and her approach to addressing mental health issues. 

There is no doubt that legal professionals deal with stress, trauma and burnout. It is a part of the job that some handle well and others don’t at all. Lawyers work with people who are going through tough times and deal with situations that are not light in nature, Maria talks about the psychotherapy approach she brings to addressing this aspect of the job. Many lawyers deal with trauma and the profession is the perfect way to get away from it. Working a job that is always busy and on the go allows for your brain cognitively to leave your body or leave that trauma and focus on other people’s needs. Lawyers are always thinking about the client, the case, prepping for the trial and the list goes on. It is the perfect way to not think about anything that is upsetting you personally.

Maria talks about the importance of having a safe space for people to talk about their trauma and stressors. A lot of people will not tell anyone about their troubles because they may feel that person will judge them or misunderstand them. Once there is a safe space, whether that be in a friend’s home or therapist’s office, people feel validated in their thoughts and experiences. From this point, things can really change for someone who is going through a hard time. There is an issue with just diagnosing someone and prescribing medication so they can deal with the pain and go on with life. Maria believes it is crucial to get the diagnosis and acknowledge it, but then parking it and getting to what is underneath. This means getting to the root of the trauma and working backwards to know what has led someone to where they are now.

Tyson, Jim and Maria talk about how common anxiety is among lawyers. Because of the stressful nature of the legal field, many lawyers struggle with anxiety and all that comes with it. There is a struggle to say yes to everything because of the competition that exists within firms. Many lawyers don't get much rest because they are up at all hours working on cases or researching for their trials. There is also an emotionless nature that comes with law where lawyers have to be serious and stone cold to remain professional, which really adds to someone feeling anxious. 

Listen in to learn more from Maria Parker!

Jim's Hack: Check out the book “Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon”, by Michael Lewis. Which talks about Sam Bankman-Fried and the rise and fall of crypto. The book provides some good lessons on paying attention to the rules and about the importance of following procedures.

Maria Tip: Check out the book “No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model” by Dr. Richard Schwartz which is all about family systems.

Tyson's Tip: Check out the new feature in Canva called Magic Studio, in which you tell it what you want and it will create it for you using AI.

This post may contain affiliate links, which means that I may receive a commission if you make a purchase using these links. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

Episode Highlights:

  • 1:57 Maria shares the gap she saw in addressing stress and trauma in the legal profession
  • 11:11 The significance of creating a safe space for individuals in therapy
  • 20:43 The increasing prevalence of anxiety among lawyers
  • 23:15 How anxiety serves as a protective mechanism

Connect with Maria:


Transcripts: Addressing Trauma and Mental Health in the Legal Profession with Maria Parker

Jim (00:01.13)
Welcome back to the Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm James Oliver, hacking the third.

Maria (00:03.566)
Thank you.

Tyson (00:05.986)
And I'm Ross Tyson Mutrix the first. What's up, Jimmy? That's a new one.

Jim (00:09.526)
How you doing buddy? Just being silly.

Tyson (00:13.166)
I'm doing well. Hey, I like it. That's the first time we've done that one. So I'm going to start going by Ross Dyson, the first, just because no senior, just the first. So what's up? Busy day, I guess.

Jim (00:28.15)
Well, you know, you'll recall that back when we used to do the podcast in the old days that we always had construction sounds and trucks going by and all that stuff. I'm surprised, we've been recording all day, I'm surprised we haven't heard that downstairs where we finally have started our build out of the ground floor of our building that we bought back in December. So we knew these guys were coming, we haven't paid them any money yet, but like they're almost done. They showed up yesterday and just got to work, like they had the whole team here knocking stuff down and building up walls, it's crazy.

Maria (00:50.36)
Thanks for watching!

Tyson (00:58.162)
You better get that checkbook ready. They're gonna want that money. So, nice, nice. Well, let's get into our guest today. Let's not keep her waiting too much. Our guest, and this, I think, this is the first Scottish person we've had on the podcast. I may be wrong about that, but I'm pretty… Oh, did you say, oh, I think you said Scottish. You're Irish? Okay, Irish. Wow.

Jim (01:00.027)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jim (01:14.922)
I think this is Irish. She's Irish, buddy. I think.

Maria (01:19.716)

Jim (01:21.503)
So start that part again.

Tyson (01:23.39)
Hold on. Okay. Oops. My bad. I thought you said Scottish because I was going to ask you a question about Scotch. Okay. That's funny. All right. Let me say it again. Hold on. All right. So let's not keep our guest waiting today. Our guest today is Maria Parker. And I think she might be our first Irish person on the podcast. And I don't know if I'm, I don't think I'm wrong about that Jimbo, but I think that that's pretty cool.

Maria (01:28.674)
Ha ha ha!

Jim (01:28.766)
If it's not Scottish, it's crap.

Maria (01:31.802)
Ha ha

Tyson (01:47.854)
But let me give you a little bit of information about her. As a training and development consultant at Insight Training, Maria provides bespoke trauma informed practice and service development training to professionals and legal professionals. With over 20 years experience as a mental health nurse and psychotherapist, she has the credentials and competencies to deliver high quality, experiential and safe learning experiences that meet the specific needs to each organization or individual. And I will tell you that is a difficult bio to read.

And so it's, I made it through it though. Maria. Welcome to the show.

Maria (02:21.882)
Thank you both very much. Thank you. It is difficult. Yes, I need to maybe do put in a one-liner or two lines there. Well done.

Jim (02:31.126)
Maria, thanks for being with us. How did you get into the business of helping people?

Maria (02:37.97)
At 18, after I left school, I went into nursing because that was the history of the family into the caring professions. It was brilliant. It was a great, great experience to work in acute mental health for as long as I did. But I realised the longer I was in it, the more I realised that I did not believe it didn't align with my values in terms of just using medication to treat symptoms.

people and putting people into boxes. So I really aligned myself and retrained as a psychotherapist, which I loved because it was about root cause. It's about let's get to the root of the issue and let's help the whole person as opposed to just treating symptoms. I worked a lot with young people. I specialised in child and adolescent mental health and we literally just medicated symptoms. So it really, you know, there were times when a young child would be prescribed.

antidepressant medication and part of my role would be then to speak to parents and explain to them that even though your child has been in because of a suicide attempt, they're now going to be more suicidal for the next three weeks because of the side effects of the medication we're putting them on. So I just couldn't use those words anymore. It didn't align with me. So training as a psychodynamics integrative psychotherapist, it's very much

I suppose it started with Freud and looking at our defences, but now it's more of a holistic approach. And that's where I am today. I'm still a registered nurse, but I have worked with Telt on my own, into my own business for the past three years as a psychotherapist in private practice.

Tyson (04:27.266)
So you work with professionals and legal professionals and I wonder why, I guess, why did you choose that particular clientele? And then what do you see that professionals and legal professionals in particular, since this is a legal podcast, what do you see about our profession that maybe you don't see in other professions?

Maria (04:36.14)

Maria (04:50.126)
The reason I always was drawn, I have a huge interest in law, always had, I have a lot of friends and colleagues who are who are solicitors or lawyers as we speak, call them here. But they would always really listen to what I was speaking about if we were talking about anxiety or talking about how stress and burnout shows up in the workplace. They would always talk to me, God, we need this work.

We need this work. So my colleagues, myself, they're stressed out, but we don't know where to stop and take a look at that. So I went into researching this and spoke to a few people and I saw the research that was out there. So I could see the gap and I could see the skills I have in terms of bringing, in particular, the psychotherapy approach and skills to the lawyer, lawyer law firms and to individual lawyers. And really, if you take off the hat of the lawyer.

everybody's human underneath us. There's commonalities for sure in terms of maybe personalities and high achieving and striving for perfection in certain ways. But if you bring that back, if we're not connected, if our identity and value is attributed to what we do, then we are moving, we're on shaky ground because we're moving further and further away from who we actually are. And the amount of stress

trauma and burnish that is in the profession and if you look at suicidal ideation, suicide itself and addiction these are all symptoms of something a lot deeper rooted and a lot of our conditioning perfectionism or overworking, overachieving comes from our childhood and how we were conditioned to be a particular way.

And if we grow up in a place where we are not what we call our true selves and we're striving to base our value on what we do, then we are more open and susceptible to having deeper issues, mental health-wise, as we go on. Because you're not going to realise when you're in the heights of stress, you can't make decisions like we would if we were in a more balanced state.

Maria (07:15.614)
and the legal profession, the nature of the work, you're always going to be looking at the negative side, you're gonna have to be forecasting the future, looking at the side that most people don't look at, you're already in high anxiety all the time. So that fight or flight is going to impact your nervous system and it's going to have you operating in a place where perception and ability to make decisions change, change.

Jim (07:45.462)
Thanks Maria and speaking of trauma, I wanted to talk a little bit about trauma. I was, I spoke at one of our conferences a few years ago about the fact that I had been molested by a priest when I was a kid and sort of how I carried that with me and how it took a long time for me to figure that out. And I was surprised by the number of lawyers who've reached out to me to talk to me about their own either sexual trauma or some other kind of trauma and

Maria (07:58.074)

Maria (08:09.443)

Jim (08:10.962)
And then I happened to read a wonderful book, a very hard book to read called The Body Keeps the Score last year. And I'm just struck by how damaged people are. And a lot of us are just walking around, especially lawyers with these battle armors on that are really just protecting these really sort of damaged, hurt souls.

Maria (08:16.602)

Maria (08:25.175)

Maria (08:37.154)
Yeah, yeah. And that's, thank you for sharing that, Jim. And it's deeply traumatic. You know, any abuse of any nature is deeply traumatic. And when it happens in childhood, it's even more horrendous because you're right, we build up a protection around ourselves. I always think of it as like a scaffolding. So we're still inside, but we're operating it. Scaffolding is keeping us up and keeping us functioning.

But it's not steady. It's that again, it comes back to that ground that is unsteady. So when you're carrying shame and shame is one of the deepest root of outcomes of trauma, if you want to look at it that way, guilt tells us I've done something wrong, but shame ultimately tells us I am wrong. There is something profoundly wrong with me. And in childhood, if you look at like Body Keeps Scores is a brilliant example of trauma work.

If you look at Gabor Amati's work and what he talks about in terms of trauma, it's not necessarily what happens to you. It's whether you're left alone with that trauma. So if you didn't have an adult or somebody around or anybody that hasn't to make sense of that incident, to make sense of what happened, then it can be more accepted. It's easier to integrate it and it's easier to get the support. But when you're left alone, children in particular make up stories. We make up stories about ourselves as we grow.

and it comes back down to safety and connection and how safe do we feel within our bodies because we've most of us and again back to the busy lives within law firms and individual lawyers or in-house wherever they're working it's such a fast pace it suits to leave your body to not be connected with the body to be cognitively thinking all the time forecasting and working in the future.

because it can be easier, it's familiar, it's familiar to lead the system. So it doesn't surprise me that you had a lot of people contact you with similar stories and that comes back to me speaking that we take off our hats, it doesn't matter what we do, we are human at the base of everything. Well that's what makes us the same, that's what connects us all, it doesn't matter what hat we wear.

Maria (11:02.122)
And because we attach so much to what we do, we forget that there's actually someone else in there. We're actually individuals behind it all. You know, and I remember listening to your podcast, that's where I've been listening to you a while, but it was back in May when you had the podcast about the lawyer who had died by suicide. It was in the Facebook group and so he had been disparaged and somebody put up a statement and thinking about the shame that…

you know that impulsivity. Impulsivity I think has been a key piece that research I know now identifies but if we look historically at mental health or mental illness they have attached suicide directly just to depression so I feel and believe deeply that we've missed out on many years of impulsive suicides due to trauma and due to the deep shame that people carry that they

Maria (11:59.254)
or to speak about or have a safe connection, understand what safety is, understand what it means to actually connect with somebody who wants to hear. Because, and as you mentioned there, Jim, in your childhood, as adults, my role with anybody that comes into therapy or the groups I support in law firms in terms of understanding vicarious trauma, once you have a safe space where people hear you.

and it's validated and those younger parts are validated, everything can change. And if I didn't experience that and didn't believe that, it would be a really horrible profession for me to be in because there'd be no hope. So I hold hope for people when they can't hold it. There's a brilliant, one of the most healing and transformative trauma approaches that I use is internal family systems. I'm not sure if…

if you've heard about it. I was in Santa Barbara, I presented last month at a legal summit, the Legal Operator Summit in Santa Barbara, on interpersonal relationships and trauma and how it impacts how we show up in our relationships today. And I spoke a lot about internal family systems and was really surprised and loved the fact that a good few people had heard about it. But for me,

This is where the medical profession have gone wrong in medicalising us as humans to such a point that it's just the symptoms, as I said earlier, whereas IFS is about, well, let's not worry about pathologising somebody. Let's actually take them. We can acknowledge that you have a diagnosis. Let's just park it and let's see what's underneath that. Where did this begin? Let's work backwards. Let's come up.

Let's work together to figure this out. So there's a curiosity, there's a bit of detective work, but the framework in itself talks about our self energy. So that's the part in us that we're all born with. So they be born perfect. They have that soul energy, you can call it, if the best be spirituality, but it's your essence. It's our course of where we're good humans, right? As we grow up, depending on our families and what.

Maria (14:17.85)
trauma they carry and how they parent us and what they believe or don't believe about us, whether we're good or bad, we internalize all this. And in order to stay safe and connected with our parents or caregivers, whoever raised us, we have to conform to what they want. So if, say, if I don't agree with shouting and I tell my children not to get angry and don't shout, they're going to shut that down in themselves. Right. So they're going to repress that anger because

they have to stay connected to me no matter what I do. I'm their survival link, I'm their link to survival. And as they grow up then, they'll shut out anger. So they may then lack boundaries, not know how to put boundaries in with people. They don't want to make anybody angry. So they're just little examples, but that's part of how then we're conditioned. But in IFS it talks about that self-energy. It never leaves us, it's undamaged. And it's true to us.

But in order to show up safe in the world or in our workplaces, we have to, with what Freud would have called defences, we bring in our managers. So again, the managers can be anxiety. Anxiety is a manager because as long as we're anxious and worrying, we don't have to connect with the feeling. Right, so the managers protect our younger selves, which are the exiles. And the exiles are the vulnerable parts in us. So all of us here today are adults.

But we all were one, two, three, four, eight, five, eight, six. We all have all these years behind us where at times things may have happened, right? On different levels, different scales to different people. But if we didn't get the support to understand and process that, then we had to push it down. Right? And repress it. But the energy of that emotion. So say if it was anger, say if it was upset, if it was whatever feeling shame.

There's huge energy in that, in those emotions being pushed down. So emotions are energy and they need to, what's the word I always hope is, they need to complete their energetic cycle. So it's like stopping somebody mid-yawn, you know? It's awful, right? Except it's on a way bigger scale, of course. So we've, these were press parts in ourselves and how we keep them pushed down is these managers. So the managers might be.

Maria (16:42.106)
people pleasing, no boundaries, overworking, only thinking, don't deal with feelings. So our managers are working hard every day. They're important to us in order for us to survive every day. But we also then have, if our managers don't work, we have what's called firefighters. So our firefighters are where a lot of people in high functioning professions, in high achieving professions,

are. So that can be addiction. It can be addiction to whatever it is. It can be addiction to work. It can be addiction to alcohol, drugs, whatever it is to numb. So the firefighters are numbers. And also suicidal ideation is a firefighter, but so is suicide. So suicide obviously is the ultimate get out. These are the first responders that come into your life and say, we can't deal with these emotions. We need to protect you in some way. So it comes back to

But in the work with IFS, why it's so powerful is you learn to connect with your self energy. So that part of you that is undamaged inside, that wasn't conditioned, that can't be conditioned. And it allows you have a deep compassion for the younger parts of you, the younger you that took on these beliefs about yourself, that you weren't good enough or you had to change to be cared about or to be loved. And

Ultimately, that brings those parts back into the fold and you can then be more in line with who you actually are authentically. And it really bothers me when workplaces talk about show up authentically. The reality is most of us don't know who we are authentically because we've been operating out of a system, a conditioned system for most of our lives. And even if and I can imagine even if some people are listening to this and thinking that's absolutely not me.

It is the case for most of us. Right, so just ask yourself, that's OK if that's how you feel, but ask yourself, is it working? Are my relationships working? Am I OK in my relationships outside of work? You know, might be great in work, but what's happening outside of it? Yeah.

Tyson (18:56.394)
So this is a good segue because I saw a really interesting ad. It was posted on X the other day. And it was a two-minute ad, which is pretty long. And it's actually at a soccer match. And the entire ad is centered on two guys that are sitting in the stands.

And the guy on the left is, he kind of looks down all the time and it goes through multiple games, sometimes good games and bad games. The guy on the right side, he's always cheering and he's up, he's smiling. The other guy is always seated and just sitting there and always not quite a scowl on his face but is not quite looking very happy. And then at the end, it shows an empty chair on the right side. And then the guy on the left side takes a scarf and puts it on the chair and it's just

Maria (19:17.539)

Tyson (19:44.638)
to symbolize that guy is gone. And then there's a message about basically you never know about what's going on in the inside based on what's on the outside. So can you talk a little bit about that and maybe give us some tools we can use to identify things going on with other people that maybe we need to ask a couple extra questions and see if we need to reach out to help them out.

Maria (19:47.514)

Maria (20:11.076)
The first thing that I would say to that in response to that is as adults we all have responsibility obviously to look after ourselves and we will never, no matter what we do, ever know what's going on in somebody else's mind and that is the reality of the situation.

authentically as you can, so with genuine interest and care to somebody. If you notice a change in somebody and you're wondering, God, I haven't heard from that person. It's very difficult if you don't know somebody to just show up and expect to be able to ask these questions. But if you do know somebody and they've changed or they've gone quieter, something's happening. So maybe just genuinely asking them.

I've noticed you've been quiet or naming what you see, naming what you're seeing. And I wonder if I can do anything to help or if there's anything going on that I can support you with. It's getting the conversations started. It's difficult. I believe this is a difficult thing to do in work situations because especially at the moment, people, most people are in fight or flight. They're

they're really, really stressed. So they're worried that if they do bring this up, the stigma is still out there, the stigma is still huge. But going back to it, it's showing up and asking them, letting them know that you're there, opening up the conversations, having people in to genuinely talk about this work and let them know that it actually is okay to speak, but it's not always safe to speak to everybody. You know, it just isn't.

Jim (21:57.55)
It seems to me that maybe five years ago, you heard a lot more about depression than anxiety. But to me, maybe before COVID or right around COVID, it seems like anxiety got in the driver's seat when it comes to lawyers especially. But like, we just talk to people all the time who have some pretty debilitating anxiety. And can you talk about sort of the signs of anxiety or how anxiety might be ruling somebody's life?

Maria (22:02.412)

Maria (22:11.469)

Maria (22:24.278)
Mm. Anxiety has absolutely just the amount of people that are coming and looking for support for anxiety has absolutely escalated over the last number of years. And it's really anxiety is your nervous system has gone into fight or flight overdrive. Right. So we have a nervous system that when it's in its parasympathetic state, which we all want, that's kind of rest, digest, relaxed.

We can make decisions, we're clear minded. That's where we want to be. We can move in and out of that, right, within our window of tolerance. So we all have a different tolerance. Our nervous systems are set up very differently, depending again on the nervous system of where we grew up. So if we grew up in a home where the nervous system of the home was very hot, was highly anxious, highly worried all the time, highly concerning, or highly judgmental, we're going to have picked that up.

This is just the way it is. So we're going to all be primed to either go into our sympathetic nervous system, which is quite a flight of anxiety, which is worry or disconnection from our feeling, or others will shut down. And go in, shut down no mouth from the feelings and detach. Right. So the anxiety is going to show up, not being able to rest, not being able to stop.

not being able to say no. And then that is very much linked a lot of the time at the moment with addiction. So high anxiety throughout the day, come home and no. So asking yourself, am I escaping from something? So anxiety is telling you something. Anxiety is telling you that there is an emotion underneath that, that you are running away from, not consciously. This is all a subconscious protection.

So anxiety is a protection. It's an inhibitory emotion that protects us from something else deeper. And those emotions are usually the likes of guilt, the likes of fear, sadness, that are the big ones that are difficult to experience. I don't know if that answers it. I'm hoping to come from it from a different angle, maybe, as just, rather than just naming what anxiety is or the symptoms of it, because I think we always hear that it's a disorder and that's…

Maria (24:48.578)
That's all it is. But it's so much more than that. It's a protective, it's protection to our system. If we're worrying about the future, then we don't have to connect with our deeper feelings. And most of us as humans nowadays have never learned to connect with our feelings or we've been told it's not okay to show emotions. And this is particularly true for men.

Tyson (25:13.442)
Yeah, I would 100% agree with that, especially where I grew up. That's, you know, boys don't crack it off a thing. You rub dirt on it and all that drink water. But Maria, this has been, I think, extremely valuable information. And I really appreciate it. I wish we had more time to chat, but we are up against the time. So I do want to start to wrap things up before I do. And it's also really early there. So it's 630 year time. So we'll get you back to your kiddos. But before we wrap things up, I want to make sure that people

Maria (25:18.41)

Tyson (25:43.396)
reach out to you if they want to get a hold of you. So how do they reach out to you and get a hold of you if they need to?

Maria (25:49.458)
The best place at the minute, because I have to update my website, is Maria Parker on LinkedIn. It's on LinkedIn, I'm there and I am definitely showing up more. So, hoping that will bring… But I talk a lot about IFS and trauma in particular in the legal profession there. So, they can direct message me or maria at

Tyson (26:17.45)
Very cool. Thank you, Maria. All right. I am going to wrap things up. If you want to join us in the big Facebook group, we'd love to have you join us there. There's a lot of great information being shared always. If you want to join us in the Guild, go to where we have some just awesome rock stars there. We had a great time in Miami at our most recent Mastermind. We're going to be in Vegas next year, North Carolina. I can't remember all the different places, but we'll be in different cities next year. So join us in the Guild, Max Law.

And while you're listening to the rest of this episode, if you got anything valuable from this episode, hopefully you did, and I think you probably did, give us a five-star review. That would be fantastic. We would really appreciate it. Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Jim (27:04.77)
Read a great book, very quickly, I read it in about a week. It's the new book called Going Infinite by Michael Lewis. It's all about Sam Bankman Fried and the rise and fall of crypto and…

Tyson (27:16.5)
You read that book fast, man. Holy crap.

Jim (27:18.986)
Yeah, it just came out. I got it right away. I do audio and reading, so I get through it pretty quickly because otherwise my attention goes elsewhere. But it was great. A lot of good lessons, especially about paying attention to the rules and about the importance of following procedures. I think anybody would really enjoy it. I think Michael Lewis is sort of a fanboy of Sam Bankman Fried, so I think it's a little bit soft. But the book itself was pretty insightful.

Tyson (27:46.214)
Interesting. Okay, very good. I've not read it yet, so I'm going to check it out. Maria, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. It could be a book, it could be a podcast, it could be a quote, you name it. What do you have for us?

Maria (28:02.154)
So I would love for everybody to, if they're interested in internal family systems, to look at the book No Bad Parts by Dr. Richard Schwartz. That's really, really brilliant book. And another tip is tapping for anxiety. So you spoke about anxiety and I was talking about the nervous system and with the vagus nerve running through our body from our head down to our gut and tapping is, there are certain tapping exercises that…

If you do them and you can Google them, you'll get them on YouTube tapping for anxiety. I can guarantee you within five minutes, you will start to regulate your nervous system and feel calmer.

Tyson (28:42.854)
I like that. Really cool. Interesting. That's a really practical tip. Perfect. Thank you so much. And then for my tip of the week, mine's completely different. If Canva has a new feature or a new-ish feature, it's new to me. They had the docs to decks, but now they've got the Meet Magic Studio. So it's called the Magic Studio, where it will create things for you. You tell it what you want and it will create it for you, which is really, really cool. And I've tested it out.

It's good sometimes, it's bad sometimes, but it's using AI to make the things that you need. So check it out, It's really cool. Maria, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. I think our members and our listeners are going to get a ton out of this. So thank you so much.

Maria (29:22.445)
Thank you.

Maria (29:27.29)
You're so welcome. Thank you both. Thank you.

Jim (29:30.766)
Thanks Maria.

Tyson (29:30.88)
You butt.

Maria (29:32.046)
Thanks a million.

Jim (29:33.442)
See ya.

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