Advice for Hiring Attorney’s: Shoulds and Shouldn'ts with Marc Lopez


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Are you a law firm owner who needs help running a firm? In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, Jim and Tyson speak with Mark Lopez, a seasoned criminal defense and personal injury attorney. They discuss the do’s and don’ts when it comes to running a law firm

Running a law firm is not a simple task. It involves a lot of moving parts and strategic planning. Part of this includes hiring the rights attorneys for a firm. Mark provides a few examples of what he considered when hiring for his firm. One thing is to not hire people that are similar to yourself because they will have the same downfalls. You want attorneys who have different ways of working and bring different ideas to the table, so there is a good balance. 

Mark shares some things he does as a law firm owner that helps with keeping things running smoothly. One hack is using the Otter App in the morning to take note of marketing ideas and ways to improve client satisfaction. This is then turned into actionable items that he can bring to the team. Maintaining communication with former clients is a good way to ensure consistent business. Whether it is sending birthday cards or newsletters, this is a good way to get referrals and become the law firm everyone goes to. Having a successful law firm is all about ensuring the client is happy.

Take a listen to learn more about Mark Lopez.

Jim’s Hack: Read the book “10 X is Easier Than 2 X” by Dan Sullivan and Ben Hardy, which talks about how people move from one level of success to another.

Mark’s Tip: Read the book “Influenced” by Robert Cialdini, which outlines the best ways to market for a law firm.

Tyson’s Tip: Sort your inbox for emails in which you have a clean inbox on one side and emails that need reviewing on the other side.

Episode Highlights:

  • 5:26 Advice on managing a law firm
  • 14:12 Financial implications of law firms
  • 18:24 The benefits of working on weekends in a quiet environment


Transcripts: Advice for Hiring Attorney’s: Shoulds and Shouldn'ts with Marc Lopez

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Run your law firm the right way. The right way. This is the maximum Lawyer podcast. Lawyer podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Matrix. Let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.

Jim Hacking (00:00:24) - Welcome back to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson Mutrux (00:00:28) - And I'm Tyson Matrix. What's up Jimmy.

Jim Hacking (00:00:31) - Oh Tyson I always get a little nervous when we do Riverside. For some reason it just popped up and said we can't access your video, but then it's it's all streaming, everything's good. So, you know, we've had lots of different formats. And I was watching a movie the other day, a wonderful movie called Past Lives, and it was set about ten years ago, and it was all on Sky. A bunch of it was on Skype, and I was like, oh man, I remember Skype. I remember those ringtones and everything. We used to record Maximum Lawyer podcast on some thing that over sat Skype. Remember that? Yeah, I.

Tyson Mutrux (00:01:01) - Do remember that it was a download onto my computer and if I did not remember to hit the record button then it would not record it.

Tyson Mutrux (00:01:09) - And it was yeah, we we recorded full episodes that never happened. So they were never released. But yeah. And I do remember that ring I, I couldn't like I couldn't do it right now for you. Yeah. Do you. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:01:25) - Do do do.

Tyson Mutrux (00:01:26) - Do. Yeah. Yep. That's all I do like that. They should bring that back. They. Yeah I'm I'm missing the boat man. They were ahead of the game ringtone. Yeah. They missed the boat completely. But all right, let's let's get to our our guest though this week our guest is Mark Lopez a fellow Gildan who's awesome. He's a criminal defense and personal injury attorney dedicated to obtaining exceptional results for clients. I love that bio. Very short and sweet. Mark, welcome to the show.

Marc Lopez (00:01:57) - I'm so excited to be here. I feel like I'm with like celebrities, so if I'm blushing, I'm sorry, but I'm trying to I'm happy to be here. Thank you guys.

Jim Hacking (00:02:04) - We should had you on a long time ago. Mark, it's good to see you. Tell everybody about your firm, about the kinds of law that you practice and sort of what your firm set up is like.

Marc Lopez (00:02:14) - We are in Indianapolis and we practice in central Indiana for criminal defense, and we are statewide for personal injury. I am one of seven attorneys at the firm and I don't I know everyone said they love their job. I literally love coming to work. I love being a lawyer. I think this is the coolest job in the world. We get to mess with the government, mess with the insurance companies. I think this literally. I wake up in the morning and I am excited to be here. I'm often one of the first people here and I'm usually the last one to leave. And it's not because there's so much work and it's miserable. I just love being a lawyer and I don't know, I just love helping people. I love getting money from insurance companies. So that's a very simple existence.

Tyson Mutrux (00:02:51) - Where do you think that passion comes from? Because you obviously have a lot of passion for it. So where do you think that that that originates? You know.

Marc Lopez (00:02:58) - It's I think about that a lot because my dad was a police officer. And so part of me thinks maybe I'm getting back at him in some capacity. But I know and I've, I very remember for insurance stuff. It sounds so silly. But in college I had no money and I bought these giant speakers from BestBuy and I bought their insurance. And I remember I went about a month and a half later, hey, they weren't working. I had the insurance and they just blew me off. And like this, like this little ball of anger towards Best Buy insurance has just festered into this giant, I don't know. And that's that's where that comes from with the criminal offense. I'm not quite sure because my best friend is a cop, so I'm not anti-police in any capacity unless when they're lying. You know.

Jim Hacking (00:03:36) - Mark, some of our members struggle with hiring an associate.

Jim Hacking (00:03:39) - And I'm wondering what were the mental thought processes that you used when you decided to expand the number of lawyers you had in your firm from just beyond you?

Marc Lopez (00:03:50) - I will tell you this, the only reason I feel qualified to give any advice on this is because I've done it wrong so many times. And so, you know, my first associate, I hired him with the idea that he would help me with legal work, but I also wanted him to generate legal work. And so I would get so incredibly frustrated because he wasn't doing both. And it was only when I made that jump for the third associate, when I was like, okay, this guy, he has no new business requirements. I just need him to help with the legal work. And then when I did it like that, and that's what I've been doing since for everybody else, you know, have an idea of what you want them to do because it's it's not fair to the person you hire to be like, hey, I want you to do this, this and this.

Marc Lopez (00:04:31) - All the things that I was struggling to do. Hey, you do it too. So if you have more work than you need and you can't get that work to a paralegal criminal defense, you're just in court so much, you just can't avoid the court. But if you can't have a paralegal do it, then get an attorney. And when I was starting to do NPS, the clients would sit right back at the end of the case saying, hey, we want more attorney contact, we want more attorney contact. And so that was my cue that I needed to make it happen. And so any mental roadblocks that they weren't going to do it like me or they weren't going to be as good as me, I got rid of them because I got to give the client what they want.

Tyson Mutrux (00:05:04) - All right. So let's use some of your mistakes then. Mark, let's let's figure out how you're able to get to where you are now when it comes to you being one of seven attorneys. So if you were to give the, you know, how long have you have you been practicing? How long have you owned your firm?

Marc Lopez (00:05:20) - I've had this firm's in 2009, attorneys in 2006.

Marc Lopez (00:05:23) - So that's. Plenty of time to make lots of mistakes.

Tyson Mutrux (00:05:26) - Yeah. So let's go back to the 2006 self. Right. What advice would you give to the 2006 Mark Lopez when it comes to here's what you need to do when it comes to hiring attorneys. These are the things you should and shouldn't do.

Marc Lopez (00:05:41) - So 2006 Mark was still working at a law firm, so I'm going to jump to 2009. I opened this law firm, you know, don't hire people that are just like you because they're going to have the same they're going to say the same downfalls as you. So my first associate, who still works with me, he's my partner now. He's very similar to me. And a lot of the things that drive him crazy. When I ask myself, why am I so mad at them? And it's usually like, oh, I'm irritated about that with myself as well. So I don't know if I'm answering your question. Tyson, do you want more specific? I want to make sure I give you what you want.

Tyson Mutrux (00:06:11) - Yeah, I appreciate that. No, I think what if I, if I were a listener I would want to hear okay. So like, what are some like do's and don'ts when it comes to like, like we were just earlier we're talking to Kevin Cheney about like, bonuses and things like that. So do you have any advice on, you know, pay structures, hours? How do you divvy up the work? I mean, any advice that you have, I think would be would be helpful to people.

Marc Lopez (00:06:34) - So regarding like bonuses, we do quarterly bonuses. And I love the quarterly bonus, just because I feel like it's easier for me to keep track of KPI. I my Kobe is, I think like four and 944493 or something. So I don't like having to like do 12 months of reviewing KPIs. But we do quarterly bonuses, and every attorney here has numerous ways to earn bonuses. Hitting KPIs. Every attorney here also has their own tracking phone number that they can. It's on their card and they can leave it at places.

Marc Lopez (00:07:07) - And friends and family have that. And it's very obvious when a call comes to that number. So they get a bonus based on those numbers, the people that call from them if they've handled the case. A lot of the people call for Mark Lopez, but if they handle that client and the client has a subsequent matter, or that client refers the firm, somebody after the case is done, they get a bonus on that. So I want to try to make it like I just be very honest with you guys. If I knew January 1st exactly how much money I was going to make for the year, I think I would be depressed. I think that would be very sad for me unless it was like, you know, $1 billion or something. But I like the idea that my work can generate further business. So regarding bonuses, I love to have like little things out there that they can they can really stack up. And I met with one of my associates last week for lunch, and I was kind of breaking it down for him, and it's just fun.

Marc Lopez (00:07:54) - I don't know, I love I love paying people because when I'm paying people, that means I'm getting paid too. And so on the other question, you had hours for the attorneys. It's self-regulating. We have like a master call log. And if I see a certain attorneys, clients are calling upset, they're not calling back and whatnot. You're not working hard enough. But we try not to be on them too much because criminal defense, we're driving to different counties. Some of us are taking calls on the weekends, so I'm not going to get mad at somebody that skips out at maybe 4:00 on a Friday or takes a three hour lunch in the middle of a Tuesday. Does that make sense?

Jim Hacking (00:08:26) - Mark talked to us what it's like having two different practice areas. How do the two coexist?

Marc Lopez (00:08:31) - It's been a big challenge. So we did this in 2020. Before that, I was primarily a criminal defense. I always had 1 or 2 injury cases floating around. And when I started as a lawyer, I work for a personal injury attorney here in Indianapolis, and he had a pretty big operation, so I knew how to do that.

Marc Lopez (00:08:49) - But after two years of working for him and I still had to take every single settlement up to him to get approved. And so I kid you not, he would grab the case. Hey, you did a great job. Let me make a quick phone call. He'd call them up and get ten, 15 more thousand dollars. And I literally was just one day I sat down, I said, hey, I want this. I want to be able to get more money per case. And he looked me in the eye and he was like, hey, you have to do trials. He's like, once you start doing trials, you will start getting better results. And I bet he wished he never told me that because I quit the next month and I went to the prosecutor's office because, I mean, I've been there for two years and I had two jury trials and it wasn't for lack of wanting. It was just I feel like in civil litigation there's not that many opportunities, or at least not as criminal.

Marc Lopez (00:09:32) - And then with criminal, a lot of jury trials in the prosecutor's office, a lot of trials in general. And so I feel like I'm rambling. What was the actual question, Jim?

Jim Hacking (00:09:40) - How do.

Speaker 6 (00:09:40) - You have personal.

Jim Hacking (00:09:42) - Injury and criminal work together?

Marc Lopez (00:09:44) - So 2009, I started my law firm. And then I've always maintained friendships with injury attorneys. And then 20, 21 of my good friends, Jamison Allen, he expressed a desire to leave his current firm and we were going to just join up. And my game plan was to use the marketing skills and my name to try to help him get cases, and it's definitely been a challenge. There's more like, you know, you pay $25 for a pay per click for a relatively good DUI lead. It's like 100 and 1520 for a personal injury lead. And then you call you, oh, I'm not hurt. My car is just messed up and you could just see money evaporate. So it's been a definite challenge. Combining the practices. I'm very lucky.

Marc Lopez (00:10:26) - I've known the guy who's my injury partner who handles most of that. The actual substantive legal work. I've known him since 2000, like four. So there's a lot of trust I have with him, I won't lie. Sometimes I'll be listening to things and I'll be like, man, it'd be a lot easier just to focus on one or the other. But it really is kind of for me, who, you know, attention. I enjoy my attention being drawn in different areas. It's kind of fun to do different areas of law, like making slip and fall videos, then making a domestic violence video. So it's hard work, Jim. That's the real answer.

Tyson Mutrux (00:10:54) - If you were to give up one of the practice areas. So whether it's criminal defense or personal injury and just focus on one of them, which which of those would you would you give up and why?

Marc Lopez (00:11:04) - You know, that's it's a scary question. They both fulfill so many things for me and the passions I have regarding the law enforcement and insurance companies right now.

Marc Lopez (00:11:13) - I feel like I've been almost I've been doing criminal offense for a long time. So when I wake up in the morning, sometimes I have better marketing ideas. I'm more passionate about making the injury marketing as opposed to the criminal, but I do love both. And it sounds I'm serving two masters, you know you shouldn't do that. But you know, Tyson, you had a I listened to a lot of Max. I didn't listen to a lot of Max Guild podcasts. And we have the, you know, the we have those really cool weekend ones where it's just a guild. And Tyson, you made a comment that you have a particularly good ability to persuade in court and you weren't bragging. It was just kind of talking and you're just like, hey, I've, you know, I'm just really good in person. I don't necessarily like zoom because I'm really effective in person. And when you said that, I literally smiled and I, I owe so much to courtroom presence. I owe so much to anything I do in the courtroom.

Marc Lopez (00:11:59) - The fact that I've been a criminal defense attorney, I've done so many jury trials. When you get to court, you're not scared. You're not hesitant to say things that maybe other attorneys like, you can't say that, man, I've asked for a bond on someone that's got her fourth DUI and got another DUI while you let them out last time, judge and look the judge in the face. I mean, this guy out. Judge, you got Christmas. If you ask for crazy things in criminal and you go to civil. Yeah, I want $2 million. That sounds outrageous. It's not outrageous. Asking for bond on a fourth DUI when they on probation for it. That's outrageous. So when you said that, man, I I'm not I'm not trying to speak for you, but I literally I knew you were coming from the fact that you have been in criminal court. The fact that you were doing that, that's made you a better an amazing injury attorney. I mean, I'm sure you've put those two outs together before, but I love criminal defense, man, I love it.

Marc Lopez (00:12:48) - I love the nonsense things we have to deal with.

Tyson Mutrux (00:12:50) - Yeah. No doubt. I mean, there's being in because you're just you're just inundated with it. It's a constant. I mean, it's like kind of like when you're learning a religion, I guess, or not. Religion, a language like the immersion, like the immersion is the best way of learning a new, a new language is they just be immersed. It's like the same thing with court, like being immersed with it. And the best way of doing it is just doing criminal defense.

Marc Lopez (00:13:10) - So I don't know if I could give one up. I'm sorry, but sometimes I wake up more passionate about injury. For marketing at least.

Jim Hacking (00:13:17) - Is there much overlap? Is there cross-references from one to the other?

Marc Lopez (00:13:20) - There are, and it bites both ways. So we do get some referrals from injury from we do get some injury referrals from our former criminal clients. We do a good job following up with them. Just hey birthday cards, newsletters, emails.

Marc Lopez (00:13:32) - But we also find that sometimes they call with absolute nonsense. And because there are former clients, we do spend maybe a little bit more time than we would just explaining to them, hey, this isn't a viable case. Here's why. We all were never rude on the phone. But if I don't know somebody and they've just wasted $125, click. Hey man, I can't help out with that. I'm sorry, but if they're a former client, you know, I've seen them in court and they sent those cases. There's a certain way you have to be more graceful about it. So I have loved the the cross references, but it does take some time to build and also maintain.

Tyson Mutrux (00:14:03) - All right. I'm gonna I'm gonna ask this in another way. I'm gonna try to pin you down the. If you were to give up one, which one would make you the most money and make you the happiest?

Marc Lopez (00:14:12) - That's a that's a that's a very interesting question. And the reason why I see a lot of future in injury is there's more dollars per case.

Marc Lopez (00:14:22) - So we're talking a pure business perspective. I love my I love my criminal cases. But when somebody calls me just hypothetically, if I have ten criminal cases, I know each one of those is worth $4,000. And so there's no outlier. That doesn't happen. If you take ten injury cases, maybe eight of those are going to be $8,000 cases. But we have seen where these outliers are. All of a sudden you case hired you. You thought it was good. All of a sudden there's a $300,000 max policy offer. So if I had to be the only one doing the law, I was going to court every day. I was the only one answering the phones. Thank God I'm not. I would probably focus on personal injury just because it's a lot of work. It's a lot of hand-holding, but just the sheer numbers. You don't need to accomplish those same numbers to pay for seven attorneys and 20 support staff. You could do it a lot less people, so it probably wouldn't make me happier with the most money and pushing me hard here.

Tyson Mutrux (00:15:19) - Yeah, no, I get that too. Yeah, I get that too. And I wonder if your experiences like. To see where my highest, like the highest moments as a lawyer, was probably due a criminal defense, but my absolute lowest moments as a lawyer was doing criminal defense because like the highs and the lows are so extreme and it's the same. I think it's the same way with money too. But when it comes to criminal defense. But it was it was there was definitely some extremes when it comes to that.

Marc Lopez (00:15:44) - I had no gray hair until I was walking back from a murder verdict, walking to a murder verdict and I, I, we ended up winning. But that walk between my office and the courthouse, I just felt them grow. I was like, this is yeah, man. So the stress is insane. And then Tyson, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I've helped out on a few jury trials. On the injury side, the injury jury trials and criminal defense is like a no holds bar.

Marc Lopez (00:16:08) - Everyone's mad at you. I feel like, you know, most criminal defense attorneys feel like the judge doesn't really like you either. Everyone's mad, everyone's fighting, objecting. I mean, you're sweating every hour, and a criminal jury trial is like ten. We did a civil jury trial. And I'm not saying it was easy, but most of the witnesses were recorded. Everyone's super nice pros. And council brought us coffee. I was like, no, man, when do we attack? When do we go crazy? And they're like, nah man, just, just chill out. Good day everyone. I was like, these guys have been the biggest jerks pre litigation and now everyone's nice. Whereas with criminal defense I feel like before the jury trial everyone's just hey man what do we got to do. This case done. Hey man, it's just so funny I don't know man. Like I, I'm excited to do more jury trials on the civil side because they're not the stress is not as crazy.

Marc Lopez (00:16:54) - I mean, people's lives and people hurt and there's never enough money. I get that, but the actual minute is not there. Did you notice anything like that?

Tyson Mutrux (00:17:02) - Yeah, I agree yeah, 100%. It's it's a different world for sure.

Jim Hacking (00:17:06) - Here's my question. When you get to work first thing in the morning and you're there ahead of everybody else, and when everybody's gone at the end of the day, how are you spending those bookends of your day? How do you spend that quiet time when no one else is in the building? That's my favorite time as a law firm owner in the building. How do you spend that time?

Marc Lopez (00:17:23) - The morning is just on the way to work. I use the Otter I app. I don't have the phone in my hands. Not allowed in Indiana, but I have the app and I'm just talking and I'm just shooting ideas. Usually they're marketing ideas. Usually there's ways to improve client satisfaction, but I just talk. It's a 15 minute drive. I get to the office, press the stop button, I get up to my office.

Marc Lopez (00:17:45) - I actually import that in the ChatGPT and I say, hey, give me some actionable items from this, this dictation, and I'll kind of just kind of go through ideas like that. And I just, I love the quiet time when I'm just me by myself. A lot of that spent on just process improvement, marketing ideas, just trying to get ahead of my day. It used to be like I'd be here the only one before an hour. Then we started getting people who got here earlier too. And then we have quite the little crew here that's super early, but we all kind of agree we're here because we want to be. We love each other. We want to be separate. But I do love those times. Jim and I just I used to be typing everything out and just writing stuff down. Now Otter and ChatGPT, I'm just flux of ideas and it's just the quiet time is wonderful, I love it.

Tyson Mutrux (00:18:24) - Yeah, I think those are my favorite times. We're even coming in on a Saturday or Sunday.

Tyson Mutrux (00:18:28) - It's like it's, you know, it's complete, you know, quiet. You're not going to get interrupted. It's pretty nice. But all right, Mark, we are getting up against time. So we want to respect your time. So I'm going to start to wrap things up before I do. I just want to remind everyone to join us in the big Facebook group. Just search Maximum Lawyer and you'll be able to find us there. And then also give Jimmy and myself a follow on on ex. Jim's been posting quite a bit there and he posts a lot on LinkedIn too, but we've been posting a lot more on LinkedIn too. But give us a follow I'm at at Lawyer Tyson. Jim, what's your handle on on Jim hacking? Jim hacking at Jim hacking. Very very good. And then if you want to join us in the guild, that'd be great. A lot of great people like Mark Lopez in the Guild go to Max Law Guild Comm, and we would love it if you would give us a five star review.

Tyson Mutrux (00:19:10) - If you get something from this podcast to help spread the love to other attorneys all across the country. Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Speaker 6 (00:19:18) - I have a book that.

Jim Hacking (00:19:19) - I've been putting off reading for, and there's a. When I tell you the title of the book, you'll know why I put off reading it. And it's ten X is Easier Than two X by Dan Sullivan and Ben Hardy. I've. I have to be careful with how much time I spend thinking about the glorious future. So I wanted to be in a place where I was ready to listen to this book and read this book while grounded in where we currently are. So it's it's it's great the discussions as to how people sort of shed the things that got them to one success level so that they could get to a new level of success is eye opening. And these are the same pair that did the Who Not Howe book. So I know a lot of our members listen to that or read that. And, and this sort of builds on that because it's about sort of reinventing yourself when you need to get to a new level.

Tyson Mutrux (00:20:10) - I well, I can't wait to read that one. That's I'll put it on my, on my long list of books that I want to get to, but let me know if I need to move that bump that one up the list, because I do like the sound of that one. So very cool. All right, I'm not going to screw this one up. Mark. What is your tip or hack of the week?

Marc Lopez (00:20:27) - Tip of the hack of the week is a book as well. It's influenced by Robert Cialdini. I know we've all talked about this, but if you are a law firm owner, if you are in charge of marketing, if you are helping writing copy or anything like that, please get that book. The most recent addition is made 2021, and every time I read that and it's always around my office, I don't have it here right now, of course, but every time I look at it, I just find a new idea. And we've been asking people for reviews and we've been using that phrase.

Marc Lopez (00:20:57) - Do you find yourself to be a helpful person? Everyone says yes and then ask them, okay, it would be helpful for us to get a review. And we have actually increased our close percentage on reviews, which I'm like, this is like a mind hack. So a Robert Cialdini influence get the most recent one. Like it is too funny. Thanks for having me, guys.

Tyson Mutrux (00:21:16) - You just you just aggravated the hell out of me because, like, that's so true. I need to go back and read that books. I love that book. And that's such a good, good hack. That's fantastic. That's great. All right, so let me give my tip of the week. And then I'm going to ask more how people can get in touch with you. But so mine is I was getting a little behind on my email probably an understatement. But we I thought of this idea and it's actually pretty effective is so if you if this this works for people that are Gmail users. So if you've got Google Work Workspace or whatever it's called.

Tyson Mutrux (00:21:46) - So if you create you set up multiple inboxes. So you go in and you go into your current inbox and you mark, you label all of your current emails and I label them emails to sort, and then I archive all of them. And then I created multiple inboxes inside of the settings. And then I created a like in just section one is just it's called sort. And so I've got a clean inbox on the left side, but on my right side it's the emails that we need to go through. And so we can go through kind of one by one. But then all the new emails, we were able to address those as they come in, clear the inbox and then get to the other ones. So Elizabeth has been working on the other other column, you know, getting there. She's been working on it for a while, getting it organized. But so that's my, my, my tip is to if you if you want to get control of your inbox, but you're you're sort of out of control at this point.

Tyson Mutrux (00:22:33) - Do that. It's really, really helpful because it, it, it allows you to have that clear inbox, address those, get rid of them and then move on to the next ones as you can get to them. So it's pretty it's been pretty helpful for me. So that is my tip of the week. Mark, how do people get in touch with you if they want to reach out to you?

Marc Lopez (00:22:50) - I'll go email me Mark with a C at Mark Lopez You can give us a call (317) 632-3642. And members answered 24 over seven. And that can be answered by me. But I will get your message and I can give you a call back again. Mark Lopez Mark with a C I love it.

Tyson Mutrux (00:23:05) - Thanks, Mark. Appreciate your time. Appreciate you all for all your insights.

Jim Hacking (00:23:08) - Thanks, buddy. That was great.

Speaker 1 (00:23:12) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Lawyer podcast. To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content. Go to Maximum Have a great week and catch you next time.

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