This week on the show we have Bobby Buchanan, one of the group’s most active members and owner of Joint Custody Advocates.
In this episode we’ll talk about managing the stress of starting a firm with law school debt and a family, the difference between the entrepreneurial and employee mindset, training your first associates, and more.
Hacking’s Hack:
The client has the best opinion of us the day they hire us, and that’s because we tend to slack on the “after” unit of the marketing process. Take some time to make sure your current clients are having the best experience possible.
Tyson’s Tip:
We’ve built in two surveys to our clients, we give a survey during their case and after their case. You can ask for a review early on if you ask for a survey.
Bobby’s Tip:
That thing you’ve been considering for the last six months? Do it. I believe in you.
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Transcripts: Managing Rapid Growth with Bobby Buchanan
Bobby Buchanan
screw the fear. And just take that next step for whatever it is. Just believe that thing you’ve been thinking in your head the last six months that you know you can do, go ahead and do it. Don’t worry about you know, the bad parts of it. You’ll learn from your mistakes. So just believe in yourself and make it happen, because I believe in you.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking, and Tyson nutrix. Let’s partner up and maximize your phone. Welcome to the show.
Tyson Mutrux
Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking. And I’m tackling matrix with that Jenny.
Bobby Buchanan
Oh, Tyson. Everything’s good. It’s nice Tuesday, then working out every morning feeling good. Having some great conversations with some of our maximum lawyer guild members and regular members. And I’m really glad to have our guests on today.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, if I ever laughs I don’t know, we can ask. But I’ve had a lot of conversations with guild members and non guild members. was just really interesting. All the break off from people that are in the group. It’s really kind of cool. Really. Do you want to introduce our guests?
Bobby Buchanan
Our guest today is Bobby Buchanan. He’s the owner and founder at joint custody advocates. It’s a firm in Chicago, Illinois. Bobby, welcome to the show. What’s up, guys? Thank you.
Tyson Mutrux
Hi, Bobby. So you know the routine by now tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are now.
Bobby Buchanan
Yeah, absolutely. So where do I start? I feel like I’ve told my about myself for my story in many different contexts many different times. I’m originally from the Bay Area, I’ve been in Chicago for about 10 years, I grew up in a really small town just north of San Francisco with about 2000 people, I grew up in a dirt road, and my mom still lives in the same house that I was physically born in. And so about 10 years ago, I came here for law school, I wanted to live in a big city. I’d done some traveling before internationally lived abroad internationally for a couple of years. And so I just had the itch again, came here for for law school. After law school, I thought I wanted to be a public defender did want to be a public defender. But they did not want me to be a public defender, I didn’t get the job, I started working for a criminal defense attorney who also had a couple divorce and custody cases. So I got a taste of that. And then I don’t know maybe 11 months into that, I realized I was getting paid like 40,000 a year as a 1099. And I was like, you know, if I get like two or three cases, I could probably be making more money than I am now. So I cut bait. And I, at the time, a friend of mine colleague was also in the same position. And a week earlier, I had read a blog by Lee rose and talking about not having a partner and why having a partner is a horrible idea. And I completely ignored that, although it’s top of mind. And I decided to jump off the cliff with this friend of mine. And we were together for I don’t know, maybe 15 months or so. And then I realized what he was talking about, or I kind of did immediately, but 15 months later, I pulled the trigger again and split the partnership up and started my own practice. So that was I don’t know, maybe four, five years ago, something like that. And here we are today. I have a practice of myself right now and three staff members, so kind of an office manager, a paralegal and then a law clerk who will be an associate come November knock on wood. She passes the bar in October. He talked to us about when you first opened up your firm with your partner how that went and hired mindset shifted as far as going out on your totally, totally on your own. You’re always tough. We both didn’t have I think we were both like a year out of law school. And we didn’t have a book of business. We both didn’t really have organic networks, either. I mean he was from here, or at least kind of the suburbs of here. I’m not from here. So I don’t really have any community connections organically. And I’ve lived in the heart of the city mine hire time here. So building community connections hasn’t been too easy for me. So when I started, when we started, I kind of knew about digital marketing, I knew about PPC. And so I said, Hey, let’s give this a shot, I think we can make the phone ring today if we need to. We didn’t have any money either. So we got a credit card, and we just started putting ads on, you know, the AdWords on our credit card. And it was pretty darn stressful. We’re in debt right away, we did get the phone to ring, we did get some cases. Every month, it was like, you know, can we pull out enough to pay our bills and pay down the credit card and squeak by. So it was just like really a grind and really stressful. And I think actually, the hardest part about having a partner in that respect, it was a double edged sword, like we would come in, and we’d be so stressed with each other. And we were pretty good friends. So we would like talk about and therapy pies. And like, try to commiserate over how stressed we were. But it was somewhat of a vicious cycle. I think that didn’t keep us focused, and our eyes, you know, 100 miles ahead and kind of focused on one goal. After a few months, I just started to realize that I was focused on getting the phone ringing, I was focused on, you know, trying to get the work done in billing, but I didn’t feel like we were aligned in our vision. And I remember distinctly actually being home in Salinas, my hometown, near San Francisco and being on the beach, I think I was talking with my mom and having a conversation about it. And it was just one of those moments where I was removed enough from the whole situation ago, I have to end this before I’m five years down the road. And it’s even harder. And I just realized, you know, I’m, I’m in control of my own future here, I want to be completely in control of it. There might have been a safety net there a little bit when we first decided to go out on our own, or go out with each other. I think it was like, Okay, let’s just jump off the cliff together. And once I learned that I could swim, or doggy paddle, if you will. I was just like, I want to do this on my own. So that’s that’s kind of where it changed. Robin, you sent us a pretty, a pretty detailed list of what’s going on in your life. And you’ve got a child coming in November. I
Tyson Mutrux
think it’s your first child. Yeah, you but you’re also in this growth mode, it seems like, which is high risk. So you want to talk about just your mindset, kind of what’s going going through your head right now when it comes all that? Yeah, you know, I’m
Bobby Buchanan
just super duper excited. I mean, obviously, you guys have kids, you you’ve been there, I don’t even know how to wrap my mind around it and really talk about it. Because I think it’s just so overwhelming to think about bringing another human being into the world and just how amazing and special that is. So that’s kind of what everything is leading up to actually my wife and I are going to our week 28th appointment this afternoon. So it’s getting close, and she’s going to be stopping working. Once that happens, and probably won’t go back to work because she’s a vet tech in Chicago. And it just doesn’t make sense. From a financial standpoint for us to pay $2,000 a month for daycare for her to work full time when she’s really being a mom is really what she wants to do. And that’s been part of our plan the whole time is that I would be the breadwinner and and she would do most of the heavy lifting as far as raising a family. And so that’s, you know, it’s a, it’s a lot of it’s a lot of fucking stress, pardon my language, but it’s, it’s definitely you feel the weight of going, Okay, this is this is really happening, can I do this? And can I grow this firm at the same time in the way that I want to, so that we can pay off our student loans, you know, I got about $200,000 in student loans, she’s got another 70 grand, we want to go buy a house in the suburbs and you know, get together a downpayment for that. And I’m hopefully going to add two or three associates to my practice in the next six months or so. I mean, that’s where my mind is that as far as building this practice, and so I feel like there’s a there’s a healthy amount of fear in front of me of like, Can I do this Is this possible? What happens if I mess up? What have you know? What are the worst case scenarios here? And trying, you know, not to be sucked in by thinking about worst case scenarios, but just just going for it and taking risks in that way. Appointment week 28
Jim Hacking
appointment is today, that means you are getting close to you got a couple of months left, hopefully, everything goes well, I’m sure it will. Bobby, when the baby comes, man, there’s just a year and a half where your mind is in a fog, like you sort of realized, but it’s sort of not like real life. It’s just that sleep deprivation, the you know, you’re torn with your time.
Tyson Mutrux
How are you going to?
Bobby Buchanan
How are you going to hire three associates in the next six months? I mean, do you have that kind of a growth already occurring? I have, I’m not so much worried about getting the clients like I’ve done been doing digital marketing enough now where I feel like it’s a matter of just turning on the faucet and I have enough pieces in place. Like I have a pretty good funnel, where I have an intake person who’s outsourced. And she’s handling all the front end of getting leads on the phone. And I have a paid consults model where I’m not dealing too much with people taking my time in that respect. But I feel like I have all the pieces in place right now where I can, if I just turn up the volume a little bit on investing in the marketing that’ll assist in being able to get the clients that I need. I don’t know the answer your question, frankly, I don’t know. And I know that I’m going to be in such a different mindset when this baby comes. I don’t know what I don’t know. And I have to just have faith in myself and be optimistic that this is possible. And I’d rather set the bar higher than I can get to. And maybe, you know, I know, I’m going to have one, because she already accepted the offer. You know, if I ended up and only have to in the next six months, I’ll be okay with myself. But three is ideal. But I don’t know, I mean, and your guys’s insight is, is invaluable. I mean, anything that you want to kind of just pep talk me here or let me know what you have kind of learned from scaling your own firms or, you know, bring on associates and kind of the most challenging part. I’m all ears to that. Go ahead, sorry,
Tyson Mutrux
Bobby, I want to kill it, I don’t want to dive into because we only have a limited amount of time. And I want to make sure we dive into it. And we may have an issue. So I love the growth mentality. It’s fantastic. They want to make sure you’re having people do things that they should be doing. I mean, are you? Are you going to be hiring these lawyers to do administrative work? Or they can be doing real legal work? What are you going to be having these
Bobby Buchanan
three associates do it. Now they’re gonna be going to court. I mean, I’m so my practice is I have like, probably two to five cases up every morning at the Daley Center, which is a block and a half from my office. So as soon like, I think that once I have two associates, that’ll be the place where I can fail back and only be doing, you know, maybe 20% of the work that I’m doing now. My goal, my goal would be ideally, my next associate after the one that’s going to be, you know, the brand new associate, and then the next one, I envision being someone who has about five years or so doing this exact work with in front of these judges, etc, and can assist in managing the other one. But, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s my thought on it, at least I mean, I want them to hit the ground running the next one, I get as much as possible. But I know that there’s going to be a period of probably six months or so where I gotta get them tuned in with how I run then.
Bobby Buchanan
Alright, so a couple of things. I mean, so I started my firm in 2007, I had a two year old, a four year old and a five year old. So it was different, but I certainly wasn’t established like you are now. So I think it’s interesting. I think it’ll be it’ll be interesting to watch. You got to remember though, that just like the babies don’t know how to do anything, the new attorneys aren’t going to know how to do anything. I mean, you you don’t don’t expect that they’re going to be as gung ho and as dive all in like you were as a new attorney, it just really takes a long time to get them up and running. And probably longer than you think. I mean, one nice thing is you might be able to do them all at the same time. I mean, Tyson would probably say, you know, make sure that what Ever lessons you’re doing, you record all that stuff. So you can make it easier the next time but having to do it at the same time, that might be nice, because they’ll learn together, you’ll be able to teach them things together. And I think that part will be good. But I think you got to be careful about overestimating how fast you can get them up to speed. Yeah, yeah, I
Bobby Buchanan
think that I think that’s fair. Yeah, I don’t know, you know, it’s, I would rather do it. And I mean, I feel like my entire kind of career, if you will, has been an exercise in just making the jump and making the mistakes and picking up the pieces. You know, I’m, I’m a big, I’m a huge believer in being able to create any sort of life that you want. And being self determining, and being able to take responsibility for where you’re at in your lot in life and being able to change things and get to the next step. So I’ve been thinking, like, I’ve been thinking about wanting to do this for, I feel like a couple years. And, and recently, it’s like, I’m just going, it’s time to just cut it out, and just move forward, just pull the trigger, hire this next associate, turn on the marketing a little higher. And let’s see if we can make this happen and, and learn from there. Because if I don’t, I feel like I’ll be trapped in this place. For another five years, where I’m going, I think I can do bigger things. I think I can make this firm or, you know, impactful and successful and profitable. But I’ll never be trying anything. So I’m kinda like bucket, let’s do it. Maybe a little haphazard for when a baby’s coming. But I that’s just where my head’s at. Hey, man,
Tyson Mutrux
go for Brooke, baby. I’m good with it. So I hear it’s, it’s interesting, cuz I think this can be done often other lawyers do it, especially with criminal defense, I think one of the biggest my biggest concerns would be is it would you hire three new lawyers so quickly, basically giving them all your cases, or the majority of your cases, if a couple of them choose to leave, they can have half your cases to go out the door right? Right away, that’d be one concern. But you can probably put some failsafe. But I don’t know, if you’ve looked at salary versus giving them a percentage of what you bring in versus what they bring in. But I’ve seen from some lawyers successfully, were both there was no not give a salary, but they do give a salary, very little base salary, and then give and then say, okay, you get a certain percentage of anything you bring in, and I’ll give you a, it’s a in you give them a pretty high percentage of what you bring in. So they work on it, and you give them a pretty big chunk of it, like, like 50 to 65%. I mean, yeah, I’ve seen people do that, and actually had some success with it. Have you thought about those models?
Bobby Buchanan
Yeah, I definitely have. And I’m not opposed to that. And last time, I, when I was negotiating salary with my law clerk who’s about to be an associate, when we were kind of negotiating the associate package. I was I offered to her a lower base salary, and, you know, a percentage of work that she brought in. And she wasn’t, she wasn’t into it, just because she was a new attorney. And she was like, I don’t want to work. I don’t want to worry about having to bring them business, I’d rather just have a higher salary. And so that was fine. You know, we found a salary that was reasonable for both of us, and and workable, but the models you’re talking about definitely appeal to me, I think some of the the way to make it work or, or what I would be concerned if I was in the associate shoes is wanting to make sure that the firm I’m working for had rock solid collection system and a really good marketing and sales system as well, which I would say I am close to having that. I mean, my collection system is is pretty good. The marketing is pretty good as well, but I don’t know like, I feel like a lot of attorneys, at least in the community that I’m in would be somewhat wary of that. That model. That’s what I would be concerned about. Is that you know, they’re not most attorneys. I feel like the good employees aren’t too entrepreneurial. Like they just want to do the work and they don’t don’t have to worry about, you know, having a commission type job. But I don’t know, I should probably talk to some attorneys who are doing that model and see if these ideas I have are actually true.
Bobby Buchanan
In my experience, you’re dead on, most people want to have a job, and that they don’t necessarily want to just come and punch a time clock, but it’s pretty close to it, they just like to have that steady work. They don’t have to worry about it. And they’re not thinking about things like we are.
Bobby Buchanan
Yeah, I was actually talking to a colleague recently, he has two younger Associates, and he was doing a model where he pays them, you know, a base salary every quarter. And then they get basically bonus, structured bonus, based on the number of hours they work above, you know, their minimum requirements. And both of them came to him at the end of the year, when they had a meeting. And we’re like, we don’t want to do this anymore. It’s too stressful, we’d rather get paid less. In order not to have to kind of meet, feel like we’re, we have to work harder after we meet a minimum to get paid more whatever, you know, like, they just, I feel like a lot of people and it’s hard to relate to when you are the boss or the entrepreneur or whatever, that there’s a lot of people that just want to get the salary and get the work done. And they’re motivated by different things. I that’s been another challenge for me is figuring out how to be a manager. I mean, I’ve never, I’ve never been a manager in my life. I didn’t grow up around professional people really. And so as I brought on more staff figuring out, you know, how can I be a good advice? How can I motivate my people in the best way possible, and make them feel like they’re really working for a team and kind of building a culture, if you will? That’s something that I don’t know if I need to do training on that, or if it’s just a learn by doing thing, but I feel like I’m just shooting from the hip on that one. You know, I know, I know how to be a respectful, kind, empathetic person. But, you know, that’s, that’s about it. I really don’t know anything else beyond that as far as how to be a manager.
Tyson Mutrux
Well, if he has policies and procedures built out.
Bobby Buchanan
Yeah, I mean, so I would say, let me rephrase that. No, we have a couple.
Tyson Mutrux
So, I mean, I don’t know that you generally, I think that that’s a big problem, if you’re trying to ramp up. Because the more you ramp up, the more you’re going to need some policies and procedures in place, and you’re not going to be able to do without it. Because you want to be able to say, you know, once you start getting a ton of questions from these young associates, maybe maybe one or two are experienced, and the other one’s not, you’re gonna want to be like, hey, go look it up into policies and procedures, like we use tetra, so I say, hey, go to Tetra. And it is a huge time saver when it comes to training people, when it comes to answering questions. And whenever they’ve got an issue, they can just go straight there, look it up. Until I really think you need to start thinking about putting that in place before you start going on with hiring.
Bobby Buchanan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’ve, I definitely I have the seeds of that kind of I’ve built out the framework as far as building a wiki for our firm. And I’ve gotten a little bit of traction from my staff on that. But I think I need to continually water that seed, if you will, and get some more buy in from, from my staff on that. I mean, I’m thinking about Ryan McKean, talk at the conference, and just how they, it sounds like he’s really created a culture of getting his entire staff to contribute to that and appreciate how valuable it is.
Tyson Mutrux
Well, I mean, I think the entire journey is on cutting in. But the the, I think part of it is that buy in is that they’ve got to know that they can contribute. And so I think if you tell them as soon as we get up the effort, this podcast, they send out an email to your staff say, Hey, I’d like everyone by Friday to write one page for our firm wiki. That way, they know that they can. Because thing, it’s one thing but requiring them to do with another and once they know that they can and how to do it. I think that would go a long way. And I think that’s a pretty easy way of building starting to build the wiki anyways. Okay, write one page on something that you do every single day. It’s pretty easy for them to do we know how to do it. And that’s the easy way to start build up that database. Yeah. All right, done. I’m gonna do it
Bobby Buchanan
and I I make a suggestion. So my question is for both of you, Tyson especially. So we have 10 weeks, that baby’s going to be here in 10 to 12 weeks, 10 weeks to build out all the products, policies and procedures for a firm that’s going to triple or double in size in the next six months. So I think that I mean, Bobby, I really can’t emphasize the clarity of mind that you have right now you will not have for the next 18 months after that baby, your best, all the best thinking you’re going to do over the next two years is going to be in the next 10 weeks. So I think a page a week is a really nice thing, or even a page a day. That’s not it, we’re we are we want to solidify this thing, because you’ve got a really good thing going we want to nail it all down in these next 10 weeks. And we need to, we need to sprint from now until that baby’s here, because you’ll never get that clarity of mind back. Let’s do it. I think that’s a great idea. And, you know, when I think through policies and procedures, I think the biggest thing like the biggest hurdle that I have is identifying the policies and procedures that already exist in some form, like they’re not fully fleshed out. And there are ways that we do things and ways that I like things to be done. And like, maybe I’m overcomplicating it, and maybe you guys can kind of break it down or simplify as to how what’s the best way to kind of take that that knowledge that’s in our collective heads and getting it on paper? As far as a step by step or just, you know, getting it down? I mean, what would you guys say as far as that? Would you say? One is more important to do policies and procedures? Like the and I know, we’re talking about, you got to get everything down, but the legal work itself, like how to work up a case, or the administrative stuff, you know, where what do you think is the priority in your experience?
Tyson Mutrux
I think administrative stuff hands down, I think that that’s like the nuts and bolts stuff, because the legal stuff, you’re gonna want to expand on that at some point. But the legal stuff that for the most part, stuff that has been ingrained in them in law school, and through and through practicing. And so right, some of that will come to them, and then some of the r&d in them, but the nuts and bolts of like how to work your system. So like, you know, think of it think of your, your systems like a car you like how do you drive this freaking car, and the rest of it is, you know, the legal stuff more like the roadway. They know how they know how to maneuver the roadway. But it’s using the actual core operating that vehicle. How do you how do you operate that new Tesla? Because they’ve never driven a electric car before? How do they drive that actual model vehicle? I think that that’s what you need to focus on. I don’t know like what you think, Jimmy, I think that that’s where you should focus. When it comes to policies and procedures.
Bobby Buchanan
Here’s what I would do, I would find the person in your office who knows the most about your firm, as far as the administrative stuff, and I would put them in charge and say, Look, we have 10 weeks, you’re going to build out with the rest of the team, all the policies and procedures for the firm for the administrative stuff. What I’m going to do is I’m going to record every single thing that I do for the next 10 weeks. So you talked about going to blocks of the Daley center. I’m going to talk about how you go to the Daley center, I’m going to I’m going to record how to talk to a clerk in the in chambers, how to get things done how to how to negotiate this problem or that problem. I’m going to record Bobby for the next 10 weeks. You record you and the rest of the firms and extend week. And then we’re going to document the crap out of it based off our
Bobby Buchanan
recording. I love it. This is getting me excited. My because I’m thinking about my office manager Gloria who is fantastic. She’s amazing. I I feel like I struggled with her because she’s 70 years old. She has been doing this for 40 years. And she is probably the most energetic person in my office. And the day I hired her. She was reading in between the lines when I was seeing her an email and I feel like she is the number one perfect person for this. So I’m going to sit down with her today and tell her they action plan for what we’re going to get done. So this is this is awesome. All right. Well, I think this is this was a good call. It was an unusual call. But I mean, Desperate times call for desperate measures. I’m very excited about the baby coming, but man, we got to get some things done before that kid gets here. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’m not a usual kind of guy. So I wouldn’t expect any less. You guys have been you know, awesome. I’m so glad to be part of the community and kind of continuing seeing what I can do to help everybody and just, you know, staying in touch with you guys.
Tyson Mutrux
Perfect. Alright, this is a I think this is a natural stopping point. So before I wrap things up, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group. I was just looking And before eight o’clock, there were seven people that had posted new messages on the Facebook group. So it’s, it’s already happening, there’s a lot of activity every single day. So get involved there. If you don’t mind, just taking a couple of minutes, go into Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and give him a five star review. It helps spread the word. I can’t stress that enough. So if you’ll go on there, give us a five star review. It means a lot to us. Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?
Bobby Buchanan
So I’ve been spending a lot of time lately thinking about the after unit and Tyson I are going to record an episode on the after unit we think I think it’s the neglected
Tyson Mutrux
stepchild of marketing
Bobby Buchanan
and what we do and what we talk about. But what I mean specifically is that our clients love us the most the day they hire us and everything we do after that is often a disappointment. And how can we build that connection after they’ve hired us to make us inseparable, how to make us their hero, how to make us their guide. And I’m really going to spend some time thinking about the things that we do in the office that repel them after they hire us. And that make them love us every hire. So I really encourage everyone to spend a little bit of time thinking not so much about how do I get the next client? But how do I make the ones that already have love us and want to do?
Tyson Mutrux
Good stuff, I love it. All right, Bobby, what is your tip or hack of the week?
Bobby Buchanan
My tip of the week is to believe in yourself, and to screw the fear. And just just take that next step or whatever it is, just believe that thing you’ve been thinking in your head the last six months, that you know you can do, go ahead and do it. Don’t worry about you know, the bad parts of it. You’ll learn from your mistakes. So just believe in yourself and make it happen because I believe in you.
Tyson Mutrux
Right. I love it. All right. So this, this sort of my tip relates to what Jimmy was talking about how whenever people love you the most whenever they hire you. So we built in two surveys. One is a during unit during unit survey, and then one is an after unit survey. And what we do is we give a survey in the first couple of weeks, right after they’ve hired us asking how well the firms communicating with you professionalism of the firm responsiveness of the firm, trustworthiness competence, and then how invested you feel we are in your case, what we’re doing well, what we can do better. And then we also asked the question, Have we done enough to earn a five star Google review from users when they say yes, we give them details on how to get that Google review. It’s a good way of getting that review early, and sort of locking them in. And so that’s a good way and then we’ve got one at the end of the afternoon. But the tip is to add that early survey, the one you know how they’re feeling about the firm, but also you can increase your Google reviews pretty easily by doing it early. So that is my tip week. Bobby, hopefully you’ve gotten a lot out of this. And we spend a lot of fun just kind of talking back and forth to talk through everything. So thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it.
