In this episode, Jim and Tyson will try to help out a listener and a member of the group who has been having marketing problems and is trying to get more clients through the door. They will go over his website and his firm and point out different solutions and tips to help him improve his business.
Attorney Frank Jr. practiced with his father Frank Sr; the law firm was established in 1963. Frank Sr. is now gone and Frank Jr. is left running the firm, and he feels like the cases have dried up and he is just not seeing the kind of business come in the door like he used to.
TO DO LIST:
1. Take a practice area. Nitch down!
2. Have a good domain name. Something professional. And please use a professional email.
3. Design your website.
4. Get email addresses to stay in contact with potential clients and potential referrals.
5. Move to the digital era.
6. Start with your next best thing, do that, and then move on to the next one.
7. Meet with referral partners. Coffee. Lunch.
8. Get a young attorney to help out with marketing and social networks.
9. Read the book: The 12 Week Year: https://www.amazon.com/12-Week-Year-Others-Months/dp/1118509234
Max Law Con:
http://maxlawcon.maximumlawyer.com/
Hacking’s Hack:
Learn how to use Instagram! Download Sue’s free guide on her website!
https://suebzimmerman.com/
Tyson’s Tip:
Get a driver! Whenever you have long drives, get a driver and use that time to get some work done. The expense is small compared to what you get out of it.
Thanks so much for listening to the show! If you want to know more about this and keep on maximizing your firm, please join our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/403473303374386/ or like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MaximumLawyerPodcast/ and comment!
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Transcripts: Lawyer Marketing Emergency
Jim Hacking
But if you want to practice another 12 years, you got to do it, you’ve got to take that step and move from the paper and Yellow Pages and Christmas card era to digital to getting clients to raise their hand and maintaining long term relationships with people so that they can know like and trust you and then refer you in the future.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum layer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
And I’m tasting Music. What’s Up, Jeremy?
Jim Hacking
Emergency emergency everyone to get from St. That is a quote from one of my all time favorite movies, the Russians are coming. The Russians are coming in high school, I had to listen to that. watch that movie every year in Russian class. I’m not sure exactly why there was no Russian spoken in it. But there is an emergency on our hands and somebody needs our help Tysons. And I think you and I are just the ones to help them out. I got a call yesterday from our good friend Mary Pat McInnes, Mary Pat, you know, is the Director of Career Services at St. Louis University School of Law, and the ultimate host of our upcoming maximum lawyer conference event in May. And she had a attorney that she wanted us to talk to. So I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with him. I’m going to have lunch with him next week. But I just wanted to tell you about that and get your thoughts and then I’ll give you the whole intro into into what’s going on with this particular law firm. Okay, we’ll do it. Alright. So we’re not going to name the attorney, because we don’t want to embarrass anyone. But you know, you and I have always had this long, ongoing debate or question to ourselves as to whether or not we should spend most of our time focusing on attorneys who understand the kinds of things that we talk about that Mitch Jackson talks about the John Fisher talks about that stuff, price talks about the basically all of the people who are in our Facebook group have come to understand to varying degrees. But I saw a spark of it yesterday, and this attorney who contacted me, and what he said was, is that he’s been practicing law for about 25 years or so that he took over his dad’s firm. So it was a father and son practice. And that, lately, they have seen the personal injury and the worker’s comp cases, completely dry up. And he had been talking to Mary Pat, he was wanting my help, to think about and brainstorm on ways that he could take his practice back to sort of get more cases. And to sort of turn things around in what Mary Pat described as a rebooting of his firm. And so we spent some time on the phone, I took a look at his website. Like I said, we’re going to have lunch next week. And I have forwarded the website on to you, we’re not going to post it in the group or anything. But I do think that not only will there be value for this person, let’s call him. Frank will call the attorney Frank just to make life easier. And Frank, let’s say the name of the law firm is Smith and Smith. So Frank practice with his dad is the law firm was established in 1963. Frank Sr, is now gone, and Frank Jr. is left running the firm and he feels like the cases have dried up. And he’s just not seeing the kind of business come in the door like he used to. So obviously, this is something that we see from time to time that a lot of people come to us wanting more cases. And, you know, I think you and I both sort of understand that there’s probably a little bit more fundamentally that’s going on.
Tyson Mutrux
No, absolutely. So I’m looking at Frank’s website, right. And I can tell you from the very, very beginning, we have to start with the basics, right? I mean, the guy’s got a niche down. There’s a reason why it’s car accident, and personal injury cases have dried up. You see Personal Injury workers compensation, car accidents, traffic, estate planning, wills, probate, deeds and power of attorney all on the all on this home page. People are confused. I mean, well, one is website garbage. That’s, that’s number one. But that’s not even his problem. His problem is the fact that he’s just all over the place. And I’m not sure what my state well, I know for a fact I personally don’t want my estate planning lawyer doing my car accident case. It just doesn’t work that way anymore. This guy’s not a small town. You’ve got a lot of competition. Well, personal injury is a practice that’s booming with with new attorneys. We have new attorneys every day saying I’ll do a personal injury do personal injury. People are now taking and just putting personal injury on their website because they they can grab a car accident case here and there. They’ll take it. Nike get out The different stump speech about how those people are screwing up those cases, but I won’t. But I mean that from the very getgo. He’s got a niche down if that’s what if those are the cases he wants to take, he needs to take those cases, and put it out there that he’s taken those cases and get rid of estate planning, wills deeds, Power of Attorney traffic, maybe he can still handle those cases if he wants to, but don’t advertise for if you want car accident cases, guess what? advertise for car accident cases, kind of ridiculous that you cut off on his website.
Jim Hacking
Alright, so I agree with you, we’re gonna try to be kind in the way that we frame things. So I don’t know if we want to use words like garbage and ridiculous, but I totally get where you’re at. I
Tyson Mutrux
get it. I know I get it. But I guess my frustration is, if someone tells me they want a certain type of case, then tell me what the case don’t just put some you want all these cases? I mean, this is the easy this is one of those things where like, if you think about the consumers perspective, I don’t know what you want. I don’t know what to refer to you. I don’t know what if I’m a referring attorney, like what kind of case do I refer to you? I don’t know what I’m looking at your website. You’re right, though. I’ll back it off a little bit. But I guess the point is a B, take a practice area.
Jim Hacking
Alright. So when I was talking to this attorney, who is 58 years old, and and I was looking at his website, I was reminded of one of my favorite episodes of ours, where we went out to California and looked at some bankruptcy websites. And this website, I think, is a little bit even more archaic than those you’re absolutely right. About the multiple practice areas. But he also I mean, there’s there’s a couple things just on a real basic level, when we were setting up the lunch, he gave me his email address, and I knew it was coming I knew was coming because
Tyson Mutrux
I guess it is an SBC global.net. So close, so close,
Jim Hacking
if Smith and smith@att.net, which is sort of the vaccine thing. On his website he has picture is sitting in front of the logbooks, it even has the scales of justice in the picture. And there’s a big fat black pen at the top of the website. So clearly, someone has come and told him probably about 10 years ago, that he needs a website. And he was smart enough to get a website. And the one thing he has going for him is he has the name of his city with injury attorney in the domain name. So the one thing that he has going for him is that he doesn’t have Smith and Smith in the domain name, I think Seth price could do something with that domain name.
Tyson Mutrux
Oh, it’s a good a great domain name. i That’s the first thing I noticed. It really is a great, great domain name.
Jim Hacking
And it’s probably an old domain name, which means I would have at least my old understanding of Google algorithm is that that would give it some weight. So I think he’s got some things to deal with. Now. You were talking about being frustrated. Now wait, wait till I tell you the rest of our conversation, this is going to make you cry. Alright, you ready? So as I mentioned, the law firm has been around since the early 1960s. And I asked him, you know, what his database looks like, like what his client was looks like. And, you know, how is he communicating with him? And he said, Well, the only marketing we do is we send out a Christmas card every year. And I don’t think I have anybody’s email addresses. I only have hard mail addresses. And I said, Okay, well, we can we can try to figure out ways to start getting email addresses and that kind of thing. And I said, How many people do you have on your list? And he said, Hold on, and he put down the phone, he went to talk to a secretary. And he said about 125. Really? The law firm has been around for 45 years.
Tyson Mutrux
Wow. That’s a list. That’s, that’s, that’s crazy. You could sit down and then right now where he could he gets to that right now. And his list of friends and family, I’m assuming would be 120 people. That’s crazy. Yeah. Or even
Jim Hacking
if he just took all the cases that he’s had over the last 10 years and contacted those people. I mean, I think, you know, Dean Jackson would say that he’s sitting, you know, he could have been sitting on a goldmine of potential referral partners or referral sources, if he had been capturing all the people who contacted him over the last 45 years, and stayed in contact with those people. Now, they probably certainly none of his dad’s clients are going to remember him. And so I think, if he came to us and asked us, How would you reengage them, what ideas would you have to sort of get out from this problem that he has?
Tyson Mutrux
Well, so I’ve got a simple idea right now and it’s, it’s, you got to take what he’s given us to kind of shape what we do and I, I think what he could do, it’s a list of 120 But listen, that’s fun. You work with work with that you have start your newsletter. He doesn’t have the email addresses so he can’t send out an electronic email newsletter yet, but what he can do, he can start sending out a paper, email or paper newsletter. And it’s really not gonna be that expensive for him, it can be fairly cheap, especially with only 120. But I think while he’s doing that, while he’s sending out that list, go through his current files and absolutely update the list with a new address with all those addresses, maybe go through the old ones, he could even do it go step further. If he has something like less Lexis Advance, like we do, he, they could pay someone or they could do it internally, where they go through and they find the people’s new addresses. So they could go, let’s say, the last 10 years of clients, and say, take them and say, Okay, I need their current address, and then update those for the newsletter. There’s also an advanced step, I heard a guy named rock bed, four or five years ago, he created this awesome scraper system. For me, that was fantastic. But he could hire someone, if they could get all of the names into a spreadsheet, it gives him as much as many identifying items as he can, he can actually pay someone like Achmed to scrape websites like white pages.com, to give them an updated list of addresses. And it’s really not that complicated. So to expand that list of people that he does know, over the last 10 years, I wouldn’t go back like 40 or 50. Like, like what your topics are, right? Those people don’t remember him. But I think if you go back 10 years, and all the files over the last 10 years, to get those updated addresses in whatever manner he chooses. I think that would be a great way of getting that newsletter just kind of going in and rolling again. I think you’re absolutely
Jim Hacking
right, that he sort of stuck with the snail mail, I think that he’s going to need, like you said, to redo his website and come up with some lead magnets. It was interesting when I was talking to him. At first he sort of he understood that he needed to do more, but he kept talking about oh, are you going to ask me to spend money on this, you’re going to ask me to spend money on that. And then by the end of the conversation, he was starting to talk about it being an investment. And I think he sort of realized that he’s going to have to spend some money to make some money. I told him to listen to that episode that we did with our good friend, Gary Burger, because Gary, Gary had a much bigger list and a more sophisticated operation when he was starting back out on his own. But I think that there’s some lessons in there from Gary that that our friend Frank could use, I think that he’s gonna have to move into the digital age. I think that the reason why his cases are drying up is just like you said, if if someone from out of law school two years, you know, if they do their website, right, no one’s going to know or care that Frank and his father were practicing back in the 1960s. All they care about is getting answers to their questions, and help with their dealing with insurance companies or getting their car fix or wood, all that stuff. So he’s going to need to do some FAQs, real quick, maybe a lead magnet, a PDF, download something simple that he can start getting email addresses. And I know it sounds daunting, and I know if you’re in your late 50s, that that might sound tough. But if you want to practice another 12 years, you got to do it, you’ve got to take that step and move from the paper and Yellow Pages and Christmas card era to digital to getting clients to raise their hand and maintaining long term relationships with people so that they can know I can trust you and then refer you in the future.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, so I think we have to be careful, though, as Frank, because I’m hoping he’s going to be listening to this this episode, I’m assuming. Okay, so we have to be careful. And I think this is me talking directly to you, Frank. Don’t try to take on too much right now, I think that that will be an issue, I think you need to start with your next best thing, and do that, and then move on to the next thing. So don’t try and do this all at one time, because then you won’t do it. So I think that’s extremely, extremely important. So pick that one thing from this episode, and do it and then move on to the next thing. It doesn’t sound like Frank’s base is going to come from the web from the website. So I would honestly, he’s 58 I would put that on the back burner. I think what I would do if I were him, in addition to the newsletter, I would start focusing on my key referral partners, and start taking them out to lunch at this point, he needs to be lunching with people every single day coffees with people every single day with key referral partners say this is what I’m doing now. You need to send a letter out to those key referral partners and start start targeting those people. Because at age 58, I mean, you you can you can really sell yourself if you’ve been doing this for a long, long time. So 28 Let me let us assume let’s assume that you please started on 25 And you’re 58. So that’s 23 years of legal experience. That’s fantastic. I will say and hopefully Michael enter doesn’t mind me saying this. Because Frank has this experience, Jimmy, it’s actually really, really good. Because Michael Weiner has this thing called the liner legal toolkit. It’s more targeted, targeted more towards social security disability. But I think I think it’d be really cool if Frank came up with some sort of toolkit that he put into his newsletter said, go online and get my, you know, Smith and Smith toolkit. And he can talk about all the different practice areas in there like, and I’ve always kind of wanted to do this with a team of attorneys. So if you want to contact me, we can put put this together some sort of kid where you basically, you focus on one big thing in your practice area that people need to know. And just give them that information. That advice, I think he should do something very, very similar to that, where you say, you know, when it comes to traffic tickets, you should do this, when it comes to wills and probate, you should do this. And he could offer that as a lead magnet. Now, I would be careful in how you do it, I would give it more as tips, I wouldn’t necessarily advertise it as I am doing wills and probate, they just made it more of a tip. So, you know, go online to get my synthesis toolkit for everyday legal needs kind of thing. I think that that could be a good way that he can actually build his email list.
Jim Hacking
I had an idea. While you’re mentioning all of Frank’s long years of experience, maybe maybe what he could do is find a young attorney, who maybe is a recent grad who’s looking for office space, and who might be willing to share helping frank with SEO and website stuff or just plain marketing, like you said, with the newsletter, in exchange for Frank helping that young attorney, you know, sort of learned the ropes, I think getting some new blood in there is going to be really important. Now he’s probably not going to want to pay the attorney. And maybe it’s going to be more of an office sharing or of counsel relationship. But I think there might be a way that they could work together to sort of benefit each other, obviously, you know, with me, have intent here in the office has really helped us step up our game just because so much of the kinds of things that we talk about that Mitch Jackson talks about is just native to these young people, that I think that that might be an opportunity for him, even if it’s just an intern, maybe not a lawyer, but just getting some help, would be a huge I think
Tyson Mutrux
I agree. And he could always he can always leverage interns, legal interns, as well, if he wants to build that content on his website. Have you looked him up on Facebook or anything? Jimmy?
Jim Hacking
I haven’t I was going to because I wanted to introduce him to the group. I don’t know if he’s on Facebook. But I’ll tell you, when I ran and the name of he and his father’s last name is not Smith, and it’s not anything as as communist Smith. But when I was looking for his website this morning to be able to afford you that information. I ran a search for his name, and I was finding attorneys with that name in all other cities across the country. So I think he’s got a real problem as far as even being able to be found, even if someone’s looking just really for him. But I think that’s something else he’s going to have to work on.
Tyson Mutrux
No, that’s a big problem. I tried to find them on Facebook, and it’s just, I can’t find him. And he may not be on here. And again, Frank, one thing at a time. But I think Facebook is still a goldmine, even when everyone was banding in it after the big issue there have the issue they’re having now I still think setting aside Cambridge Analytica, I still think it’s the place to be because you can detect Goldmine, you can still get a lot of different cases from it. So there is a number in masterminds, John Fisher’s mastermind experience, I’m trying to remember his name, I’m kind of scrolling through right now to see if I can find it. So I’m actually just kind of buying myself some time. But he came to John Fisher’s first mastermind experience in Chicago. And he he faced a very similar issue that Frank is facing and in his clients were drying up. And it’s, he’s got a lot of experience. And actually, honestly, it’s actually current loyalty. And Kurt’s issue was mainly that they were drying up. But I think he wanted to find a way to really capitalize on his experience. And Kurt actually did that. So this is something that frankly, would consider curling up there and wrote a book. He wrote a book and it’s a really, really good book for Illinois injury attorney. And then he goes out and speak and things like that, but something that i My advice to Kurt was at the time, because he does have a lot of experience. And because he’s got a really good presence when it comes to being on video. I told him to shoot a bunch of videos, you know, just to answer a bunch of questions on video. And that can be a very, very easy way for Frank to to get a lot of content instead of typing it up himself. Just get up there and shoot a bunch of videos and you and I can meet with him to show him how easy it is to do. Have someone else, edit them, have someone else, transcribe them, have someone else put them on the website for him. And he can build a ton of content by next week. I mean, he could have 30 pages by next week if He really really wanted to hustle, which it sounds like he does. So videos could be his is his best friend at this point because he is a little bit older. And so I get the impression, or sometimes I get the impression that people, when they’re watching these videos, they seem to trust the videos with more experienced attorneys on there the little bit older. I mean, for example, I mean, I look extremely young on these videos. And sometimes I talk to these clients and like, how old are you kind of thing? I don’t think that always works in my favor. So I think with someone like him, that is FDA, this can really work in his favor, especially with his experience.
Jim Hacking
I think the current Lloyd example is a great example. Kirkton just write a book, Kurt wrote, Lloyd on jury instruction. So it’s a book that every Illinois personal injury attorney is going to need and refer to, and it’s quite impressive. It’s not like one of my 90 minute books, it’s got heft to it, it’s got weight to it. And I think that’s leveraging that role as the elder statesman, I think it’s just a great, a great thing to do, you know, we shouldn’t really have Kurt on the show, maybe he might have some tips for our friend. But I think that another thing that that this all makes me think about and reminds me of this, you know, Mitch Jackson always says that the members of our community and of his community legal minds, his mastermind group and John’s group that, that we really are on the cutting edge of a lot of things. And we forget sometimes, sort of how far along some of us are. And of course, you know, one of the messages, we’re going to make clear at the conferences that we all started out to one degree or another roughly where Frank was, and you know, he’s been around a lot longer. And he might have some more emotional baggage towards trying new things. But, you know, we all had websites that had four pages, we all had websites that had basic content, we all had websites that were very static, and, and non interactive. And so, like you said, just one thing at a time, one day at a time, one step at a time, one piece of content at a time, I think that’s really what’s going to carry the day for Frank, and He’ll either do it or he won’t, you know, and I believe that the way that we talk about marketing, the way that we talk about interacting with the public about getting them to raise their hand that this works, and that it might take time, it’s definitely the long play. But like you said, there’s a lot of things you can do in the immediate future to really ramp things up and to stand out.
Tyson Mutrux
You’re absolutely right. I mean, for example, we started a new website last year, and it’s, it’s a pain in the ass and you got to do it. It’s just, it’s just the work. And I mean, for example, my website right now still doesn’t have a lead magnet on the homepage. And I know I need a lead magnet on the homepage, I don’t have one, we started from scratch with the content. So we still need we have a lot of pages we have to build, and we’re just doing it one step at a time. Something I’m gonna do, I’m gonna mail to Frank, the book 12 week year, because I think this will maybe helped him kind of break this down, step by step on how to really chunk this down and get get it done, gives up one or two goals for the next 12 weeks, and then really just kind of knock it out. And and I think, my guess is, if he’s, if he’s reaching out for help at this point, which is a really good start, it means he does want to get better, I think, probably 12 weeks, maybe, who cares? Maybe six, maybe maybe a year from now, maybe the websites not done? Or maybe it is maybe the website’s in a much better situation. But I think he should focus on the referral partners. But my guess is he does. Just one of the things that we said it today said today, then I think that he’ll be on the right track.
Jim Hacking
I mean, that’s the cool thing is that he had that spark, and he reached out to me read path. And then he reached out to me, he called our office, he offered to pay for a consult with me, you know, so it was that he’s he’s got something cooking in that brain of his. And so I think that to the extent that we can help fan those flames, and to get them moving, I think that we will be doing our job. And you know, talking about this kind of stuff is, you know, what gives me a charge, I find it a lot of fun. It’s why we started this podcast, because we were talking to other attorneys who are thinking about doing things, the kinds of things that will ease doing the kinds of things that John Fisher is doing. And so I think that, you know, I’m looking forward to having lunch with him, I hope to encourage him. And of course, I mentioned to him, without a doubt that he needs to register for the max law conference in May. And I think he’s going to come to that. So it should be really exciting.
Tyson Mutrux
I love it. Alright, buddy, you want to wrap this thing up? Yeah, let’s do it. Alright, so before we get to our tip and hack of the week, it was weird. I’m gonna take a little sidebar here. We haven’t done this in a while people don’t realize is we were recorded so many about a month ago that we haven’t recorded in about a month, maybe a month and a half. So you and I talk regularly, but we haven’t actually done the podcast in a while. So it’s kind of weird getting back into the flow of things. It’s kind of odd, but let me get back on track. Please go to the Facebook page and join the Facebook group. I am amazed at how many questions how many, many times people are really going on. They’re interacting, the engagement is freaking awesome. So get in there. Get involved in it when you join The group, we will ask you to introduce yourself, please introduce yourself, because that’s how you start getting involved. And, you know, throw an idea out there, there are a ton of questions, a ton of ideas out there. So don’t try to take all those same time either because it’ll, it’ll overwhelm you, but also go to iTunes, give us a five star review there, we really do appreciate I haven’t checked in a while Jimmy, but we are doing pretty well up at the end of the last year. So pretty excited about our numbers. But Jimmy, what’s your second week?
Jim Hacking
So as you know, I’m a member of Miss Jackson’s legal minds mastermind group. It’s an online community where we get together and talk about the latest in attorney social media. And last week, Mitch had on a woman named Sue B. Zimmerman, and she rocked the house as far as teaching us how to use Instagram. So I highly suggest you download her report on how people can use Instagram. That’s, you know, there’s so many users on there, and she just really breaks it down. And if you follow her on Instagram, you’ll see just how to do it if you just replicate what Sue is doing. That’s my hack of the week. Do you
Tyson Mutrux
know her? Whatever username is on Instagram,
Jim Hacking
just to want to Sue B. Zimmerman. And the other one is, I think the Instagram coach, I’ll look it up right now, while you’re talking. The other thing I wanted to mention, of course, Tyson is that this episode is going to drop on either the 28th of the 29th. And Friday, the 30th at five o’clock will be the deadline for registering the early bird deadline for registering for the maximum layer conference that’s coming up may 17, and 18th. We have about five Cardinal tickets left, which is that add on. We’re just about full for that. And we’re more than halfway full for the conference itself. So we anticipate getting some more signups this week. And we also anticipate probably selling out by the time the conference rolls around in May, we’ve been really excited to see the turnout in the interest. And I know that everyone’s working on their presentations. And you and I met and talked about it down in Colombia when we had our famous camera drop episode. Looking forward to get to seen everybody in the real world.
Tyson Mutrux
I get to my tip in a second. I think it’s I just gotta say something about this. When you and I first talked, even mentioned having the conference, we went through the numbers, and we’ve already hit the number that we thought we like would be like a pipe dream for us. It’s It’s kind of crazy. The fact that we may actually sell this thing out. So it’s really exciting. So really appreciate everyone joining and in getting involved with us. But my tip of the week is actually something that really immediate, and I were sort of going back and forth on on the Facebook group. And it’s about getting a driver. I’m actually in the car right now Sean’s driving me, we’re driving to another office. And it William said that what he does is he whenever he goes anywhere that’s over about two hours late for a deposition or court or whatever he uses. Uber I think is what he said. And so my tip is whenever you have a long, long distance drive, I’d say over an hour, get a driver and he expenses small compared to what the value is that you get out of it. So I highly recommend doing it. And use it with all the resources these days. You can use Uber, you can use Lyft you can hire someone on Craigslist, whatever it may be, but I highly recommend it. Shawn say hi. have you here. But he said I love so that is my tip of the week, Jimmy, I think. Yeah. So I’ll pick up
Jim Hacking
on that tip. I have become good friends with two of my Uber drivers. One of my Uber drivers eventually became our family nanny. She’s pretty awesome. A retired school teacher who now watches our kids after school and our other one, Mr. Berry. He’s been he takes me to the airport. And he takes me whenever I have to go visit immigration detainees down at the various immigration detention centers. And he took me to Kansas City a couple weeks ago and I sat in the back of the car. You know, it’s a three and a half hour drive. I got so much work done on the way there and back it was well well worth the money that I spent on on having him drive me.
