Today Jim and Tyson joined Kathryn Burmeister on the podcast! Kathryn started her own law firm in October of 2018 and focuses exclusively on personal injury by giving a voice to those that have been hurt because of someone else. She wrote her first book, “Rock Bottom Not Required: Overcoming Addiction to the Status Quo,” in 2020 and began speaking about self-care, business, and law the same year. Her passion for helping others is a theme that crosses between her presentations. Kathryn has a particular passion for mental health, self-improvement, and emotional intelligence, which she integrates into her legal practice, speaking, and writing as well.
Kathryn’s book just released: Overcoming Addiction to the Status Quo
4:10 never planned on owning a law practice
5:21 suicide and depression
10:14 a partnership and a quick realization
12:50 creating the firm you wanted
14:50 the unconventional way
17:46 fortunate fall
18:12 writing a book with a ghost writer
Jim’s Hack: Book – The Four Disciplines of Execution by Chris McChesney, Stephen Covey and Jimi Huling, if you’re trying to decide what to focus on.
Kathryn’s Tip: A list of three things per day. 3 personal and 3 professional, breaking it off in chunks.
Tyson’s Tip: A health app, BetterMe, a subscription with coaching, recipes, reminders and workouts.
Watch the recording here.
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Run your law firm the right way.
This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.
Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show.
Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim Hacking.
Tyson: And I’m Tyson Mutrux. My voice just sort of cracked there. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim: Hey, brother. Well, I was just outside loading up the car for work and, you know, this time, last week, it was about three degrees and we had about five inches of snow. Today, it’s going to be 63. The sun is out. I’m feeling good. How about you?
Tyson: Yeah, it is 37 degrees right now. It will be 63 today. So, with it being 37 degrees right now, that means it is about 44 degrees warmer than it was this time last week which is insanity. So, yeah, it’s a wonderful day. I’m excited about the weather. The snow is all melting. Actually, most of the snow is gone so I’m happy.
Jim: It’s pretty hard to believe how fast things can change.
But let’s go ahead and introduce our guest. We have today, with us, Kathryn Burmeister. She’s a lawyer. She started her own firm back in October of 2018. She does personal injury. And she’s written a book called Rock Bottom Not Required: Overcoming Addiction to the Status Quo. She’s a big speaker on self-care.
Kathryn, welcome to the show.
Kathryn: Thank you for having me. And I actually have an update. Since I’ve given you that title, I had changed it to Overcoming Addiction to The Status Quo. So, same premise, same story, same everything else, just modified the title a little bit.
Tyson: Very cool. So, whenever I saw that you were coming on the podcast, I was actually really interested to talk about some of the things you got going on. So, before we get to all that, tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are now.
Kathryn: Yeah. It’s been a little crazy. I’ve wanted to be a lawyer since I was really young. Nobody in my family was. I just really was influenced by a couple of writings and sent me on that trajectory. So, being a planner, an A type, I kind of worked my way backwards. Where do I need to be now to get to where I want to be later? So, I exposed myself to law firms early on starting in high school. And then, I fell in love with personal injury after I had a chance to intern with a law firm that did exclusively personal injury in law school. And that’s how I kind of got started on that track. And I was very fortunate, I was able to go straight from law school into an all-plaintiff’s practice. You know, a lot of people will do a lateral move – doing insurance defense and then make the move later.
I got my dream job. I was working with a couple other associates that were my age. Partner who’d been doing this for 20 some-odd, 30 years. A really great guy. He taught us a lot. You know, let us get our hands dirty. It was a great experience until about a year and a half later and he committed suicide. He’d been stealing money from clients for eight years. And he left notes to everybody – the bar, us, family. He just had a new grandbaby, his first grandbaby. So yeah, it was really hard to reconcile, obviously, that with the person that we all thought we knew, and the community knew, and people who’ve known them for decades knew. So, that really set everything off. It was crazy, to say the least. That’s an understatement.
So, the one senior associate who’ve been made a partner after a month before this happened, myself, and one paralegal went off on our own. We have probably 60 some-odd cases. I’d say at least half of them were in litigation. And while he was dealing with the fallout from the suicide, the estate, the old firm, I was basically running all the cases. And I had a crash course on how to run a practice real quick.
So, after about a year, it was just– I mean, it was, you know, a flurry of events. I think we were all just operating on adrenaline still, even a year later, but we finally got to a point where I couldn’t care more about the firm than he did because his name was on the door at the end of the day. And, understandably, we were all drastically impacted by what had happened. But I decided that I couldn’t go work for somebody else again after having the rug jerked out from underneath me a few times. So, what better time to start a law practice when you never planned on it, you never wanted to have your own business? Might as well try now. So, that’s what I did.
And, honestly, it’s one of the best things that’s ever happened to me. And I don’t think I could get back to working for somebody else – at least not easily, because I think people, while they have the best intentions, it’s just the nature of the beast, I think, a little bit to want to keep things close to the chest and be very protective of your business, which I understand to a degree. But that’s not how I want to operate. I want to be very transparent about what I’m doing, and teach people, and help them learn along the way, and admit my mistakes because I don’t know everything. So that’s how I operate my practice. And that’s how I ended up on my own.
Jim: Kathryn, that’s quite a tale. And I’m sorry that that happened to you. I’m sorry that happened at your firm.
Could you talk a little bit about those moments after you found out what he did, what had happened, and like how that unraveled, and how you rallied? Like, we talk on the show a lot. We’ve actually had a lot of people who’ve experienced suicide. I had a former boss commit suicide. We also had a lawyer that got murdered here last year. So, what happens in the firm when something like that happens? And how do you like get up the next day to keep pushing on?
Kathryn: Yeah. I think it impacted me differently than everybody else. And the reason I say that is I dealt with anxiety and depression for a number of years and I’ve had it managed. I’ve had a plan of attack.
So, my experience and perception with depression was always from, “You are depressed,” that’s why people ended up committing suicide or having suicidal ideations. My other experience with suicide was my grandfather had terminal illness and attempted suicide to prevent everybody from having to care for him and he didn’t want to be a burden. So, that was my mindset. Either it was depression or a medical issue that would drive you to it. Not, you’re a selfish SOB and you don’t want to deal with it. And, to me, that’s what that was.
And after looking at all the details, that’s what it was. I tried to justify. I tried to think like, surely, it can’t be this, even though it was written out in a letter. Surely, it can’t be that he did this. I don’t know. I don’t know why he’s writing this out and saying it, but it was not somebody that was two-faced in terms of interacting with them. He would give you the shirt off of his back. So, it was just so hard to reconcile those ideas with somebody you thought you knew and what had actually been put in front of you at that point in time.
Tyson: So, Kathryn– I mean, I guess, this happens to you as you put it, “the rug’s pulled out from underneath you.” I mean, like, what are the things that you like did right away? I mean, do you say, “Hey, we’re going to start this new firm” like in the first week? I mean, you said you worked the cases for a little bit. Like, once you made the decision, “Hey, we’re going to start our own firm.” Like, what were the like the actual things you had to do to get the new firm off the ground?
Kathryn: Yeah. So, initially, because he had brought the senior associate on as a partner a month before, there already was a new firm. So, we had original firm with old partner. We had a new firm a month before the suicide. So, we were handling the cases through that firm. So, logistically, it was kind of a nightmare, it almost would have been better if everything had gone defunct and then a new firm was started up as opposed to rolling things over. Of course, we didn’t know that at the time but that’s what we learned.
We actually kept everything quiet, except for going to the state bar. State bar was put on notice of everything immediately. And the reason it was kept quiet is because we wanted to initially figure out, “Okay, what is the extent of this? Like, you know, how far does this go? Who’s impacted? Can we get some compensation? You know, are the policies for malpractice going to cover this? Does he have life insurance that we could, you know, tack back on to this somehow?”
And, fortunately, we were initially told by the daughters that there were two life insurance policies that was outside the statute for, you know, the exclusion they typically have for suicide and they were going to give the money to the clients to compensate them for the money that was stolen. As soon as money hit their bank account, they backed out of that – that offer. So, that was hugely disappointing as well because nobody asked for any of this. And, in my mind, if I had the ability to make something right for somebody, especially when all that money would’ve just been gravy, for lack of a better phrase. Like, that wasn’t your money. You know, I mean, in a sense, it should have gone to the clients but–
Then, we did inform clients of what had happened. And the fact that we didn’t know how much had been stolen because none of us were on the bank accounts – that’s why none of us knew this was happening and trying to get the estate open because, of course, he didn’t have a will. He died intestate. Getting somebody appointed to the estate that could handle it. Somebody who could handle the law firm part of it, aside from the personal estate, because he didn’t have any assets in his personal estate.
There was about $120,000 left in the operating account for the law firm. And he had stolen, to the best of our knowledge after all this that we were able to estimate, was over a million dollars. So, if you do the math on that, it doesn’t work out. There is a fund with the State Bar in Georgia where you can get compensation if somebody didn’t have malpractice insurance because it’s not required in Georgia which, again, is insane. But the percentage, it just wasn’t going to add up. There’s a cap. And the insurance policies for the malpractice wouldn’t pay out because he had lied – every year when he said he had no idea about anything that could be a problem.
So, it was just really staying afloat. I think we were able to be organized and I’m somebody who, when I run into an emergency or a crisis, I just put blinders on and keep going. So, it didn’t really hit me until a year later. And that’s when I had my breakdown. It was actually after we had started the whole firm. We had been operating. We were finally getting our feet underneath us and– yeah, that’s when I hit my bottom.
Jim: I totally get it. I totally get it. I can see how– when you said we were operating only on and you paused for a second. In my mind, I said, adrenaline. And then, you said adrenaline. I mean, I can’t imagine going through this. And we could spend probably the whole day talking about everything that you went through. And I don’t want that to be the sole focus of the podcast. So, let’s jump ahead a little bit to when you decided to go out on your own. What was the final decision making factor? And then, how did that transition go for you?
So, I really wanted this new firm to work. Like I said, I never wanted my own practice, my own business. I always felt like I would do better with working with somebody. And I enjoyed the legal aspect. And I didn’t particularly enjoy the networking. I didn’t have a natural network, so it seemed like it would work out really well with the two of us. We were different personalities and I think I care more about the practice than he did. And, luckily, I realized that because that would’ve been a nightmare to go into business and try to get out of business with somebody who didn’t feel the same way.
So, I was in Portugal on a trip with a friend and I got a call from my paralegal, halfway around the world. And I said, “I love you. But why are you calling me halfway around the world right now?” And she said, “We need to get service on somebody and a statute’s about to run.” I said, “Okay, why don’t you talk to our partner?” She said, “I tried. He left. He’s not answering his phone. I need to get, you know, an authorization to emergency service on it.” “Yes. Go ahead and do it.”
So, I come back and I’m just furious. I just am furious. And my partner comes back from a retreat in South Georgia. And he’s had these spiritual awakenings and these realizations. And I don’t knock that at all. And I don’t say that in a, you know, derogatory way. The reason I do say it that way though is because this had been happening, allegedly, over the past year. He’d had these realizations and then nothing ever actually happened. He had these new plans, and then nothing actually came to fruition.
So, I had gone home before he got back from that trip. And I called my husband home from work and I said, “I need you to be there with me.” And I’ve never done that because I was worried about where my mind was. I had just hit a wall. I was so– just everything – everything came flooding.
And at that point, that’s when I finally realized I couldn’t keep working so hard for somebody that wasn’t going to be reciprocating. And I had done that for so many years. Just, generally, that’s my personality type. You know, I’ll keep pushing, regardless of what’s happening on the outside or for me because that’s just who I am. I just want to do a good job for myself, my clients. But I just realized I couldn’t do that. And to me, I realized that I was also– anywhere I went, there wasn’t going to be 100% transparency.
I’ve been burned kind of twice now with the idea that things would work out. And, of course, I can handle adversity. But, I mean, this is like an insane level of adversity over this past couple of years. So, I just decided, if I was going to try my own firm, this was the time. Worst case, I go get a job. And that’s what I ended up doing. I ended up opening my own practice.
Tyson: All right. I want to get to the book in a second. But it just occurred to me, I want to ask you another question. I guess, you had a really good, I would say, as an opportunity to create the firm that you wanted, right? Do you feel like you’ve done that?
Kathryn: I do. I have worked very hard, from the onset, to make it what I truly believe is the best sort of practice – transparency, authenticity, finding the right people to be in your circle, whether that’s working for you or working with you. I started out remotely before it was cool, before COVID, and I did that to keep my overhead low. And clients so often don’t come into my office, they’re either sick, they can’t leave work or miss work. So, I was driving around town anyway. It just didn’t make sense to pay for a space that was dedicated. Everything was paperless when I started. So, that was a huge, huge asset.
And I’ve learned very– probably, you know, later than I would have liked, but I’ve learned through running my own practice. And even running that other practice for a year, you’d have to pivot. And being an A-type and a planner, I hate pivoting, but that’s the reality of the situation. You can’t run a business – any business and not be willing to pivot when you have to. I feel like I really have created the practice that I want. And my people are all remote, like I said. I have three paralegals in different states.
And, you know, initially when I had that, when I first started that, I was always kind of saying that in a hushed voice because it’s not the norm, right? People don’t do that. You don’t have your own office with a marble conference table. And then, I realized, “Who the hell cares?”
At the end of the day, we do quality work. We are a great team. I’ve had these women working for me for over two years. Actually, only met one of my paralegals in person just because I was on vacation in Arizona. And it works. So, you know, who’s to say that that’s not the “right way to do it.” And that was a huge determining factor in my book as well, and my growth through this process. And coming back from really hitting that rock bottom is creating my own practice that I saw as really just an unconventional way to run a business, generally, but also a law firm.
Jim: Running your own practice can be scary. Whether you’re worried about where the next case will come from, feeling like you’re losing control of your growing firm, or frustrated from being out of touch with everyone working under your license, the stress can be overwhelming. We will show you how to turn that fear into a driving force of clarity, focus, stability, and confidence that eliminates the rollercoaster of guilt-ridden second guessing and mistake making to get you off that hamster wheel for good.
Tyson: Maximum Lawyer in Minimum Time is a step-by-step playbook that shows you how to identify what your firm needs and how to proactively get it at every stage of the game so you’re prepped and excited for the inevitable growth that will follow. Name the lifestyle that you want and we’ll show you how to become a maximum lawyer in minimum time. Find out more by going to maximumlawyer.com/course.
Jim: We’re talking with Kathryn Burmeister. She’s a personal injury lawyer down in Georgia. She has an amazing story to tell, as you’ve been listening.
Kathryn, tell us about the book. What made you want to write it? Why did you change the title?
So, I had wanted to write a book. I am a very humble person. And I thought, “Surely, nobody would want to read my story.” And, luckily, I got contact with a ghostwriter. And it had been right after my partner’s suicide. And right then, everything was just too raw. There was no way. And, of course, everything was insane – trying to run a practice.
And about a year later, I had a friend ask me about it. She said, “Have you thought any more about doing it?” I said, “Yeah, I don’t know.” Not a week later, the ghostwriter reaches out to me and she says, “Ah, you just open your own practice. You know, I’m so happy for you that things have moved on in a positive direction. Do you want to connect again?”
And so, it was very fortuitous. I got to talk to my ghost writer again and I realized, at that point in time, I was far enough removed from the catastrophe to be able to be more objective and share that story, but I wasn’t so far removed that I didn’t remember the feelings. In fact, that’s what kind of helped me up writing the book is, when I went back through, and was reading it and editing it, it took me back there. And, I guess, in my mind, I thought, “Oh, I’m three – four years out from this. I’ll be able to read through it and be, you know, fine.” But really to convey the message that I want to in the story that I wanted to, I had to go back to that place.
So, it was a little It was a struggle a little bit to get the message out and the story out but that’s how I decided to write my book. I didn’t want to be just about the catastrophe because, I mean, it’s Jerry Springer meets John Grisham, right? It’s just there’s so many details that makes me insane. I want it to be a lesson for people that good could come out of a very traumatic situation. And I call it my fortunate fall.
And, in fact, one of those chapters in my book has named that because it really is. If this hadn’t happened, again, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, or myself, again, quite frankly, but it led me to be where I am. And I never thought that this would be, you know, what I’m doing, running my own firm. You know, writing a book, speaking. So, things have a way of working out.
Tyson: Kathryn, for those of us that want to write a book, will you talk a little bit more about that process? Even though you used a ghostwriter, will you talk about what it was like to get that story out of you, because it couldn’t have been an easy process? Will you talk about that a little bit?
Kathryn: Sure. I recommend working with a ghostwriter. And the reason I say that is I consider myself an excellent writer. Yes, it’s legal related, but I still can convey a story.
But when you’re talking about yourself, it’s different. Working with a ghost writer, she would talk to me, interview me for lack of a better phrase. But, really, it was just having a conversation. And then, she would reach out to people that I gave her as people of interest. So, my husband, a few other female attorneys that are my colleagues, and interviewed them. And then, she compiled it. And that’s what’s really helpful is compiling it, because I feel like you could easily go down a rabbit hole, you know, with all these different perspectives or lines of thought of the story.
So, when I got the product back, at first, quite frankly, I was nervous because I thought, “Well, this isn’t exactly how I want it. You know, why did I use a ghostwriter?” But then, I realized she had done exactly what she needed to do. But she can’t possibly be my exact voice, right. And because I felt comfortable enough writing and I want it to be more authentic, I went through and edited it as if, you know, it hadn’t been edited before.
So, it’s a very long process. And like I said, I made it a little lengthier because of the mental block getting back into that subject matter. But it’s a lot. It’s a lot. Even with a ghostwriter. So, to say that you want to do it yourself. There are so many people I’ve heard say they want to write a book, and they want to do it themselves and it’s just they never do it. And I get it. Like, you’re doing a gazillion things. So that’s why you almost need somebody to keep pushing you. And that’s what I needed from Candy, was a constant little email or text like, “Hey, have you done this yet? I really need you to do this.” “Yeah, I’m going to. I’m going to.” So that was hugely beneficial.
But I think the biggest thing I’ve learned, quite frankly, recently, is the marketing aspect. It is one thing to write a book. It is a totally different thing to market a book. And you don’t know what you don’t know. So, I’m a big person. If I don’t know something, I’m going to go find the answer. So, I’ve found a lot of great resources that have helped me learn that process and to maximize the benefits of it. Because that’s what I want to do at the end of the day, it’s help other people and help other people not have to go down the road that I went to. I don’t think you’d have to suffer to grow. I think it inevitably comes out of it. You know, you grow after suffering, but it shouldn’t be a requirement or a prerequisite to be able to do that.
So, Overcoming Addiction to the Status Quo. The reason I changed the title, first of all, is rock bottom, I think, may be too harsh for some people to accept initially. And I think some people might go, “Oh, I’m not there yet. That’s not me.” That’s the biggest problem, right? People are in denial about it. But the idea of being addicted to the status quo, I think people can accept more readily even if they don’t know where they are along that spectrum. So that’s why I modified it. I kind of softened, I think, almost in a way the title, so it was more palatable to people that may be in denial about how far they are down that road and that addiction.
Jim: I want to make sure that you tell us where we can get the book.
But for my next question it’s, most lawyers don’t show up to work one day and find out that their managing partner (a) has killed themselves and (b) has stolen all the clients’ money. But lots of lawyers struggle with lots of different things, right? So, what lessons or what advice do you have for people in the community who are facing something hard?
Kathryn: So, first of all, the best place to get updates about the book is at linktree\KF as in Frank Burmeister. B as in boy, U-R M as in mike, E-I-S-T-E-R. That’s the link to all my social media. And that’s the best way to keep updates.
Jim: Can I say something about that, just on the marketing side?
Jim: You need to get your own domain name. No one’s ever going to remember all that stuff.
Kathryn: No, I do. So, katherynfburmeister.com. I have my own website. Information’s there. I just figured, for all the social media aspects and getting it at one location like that, so.
Tyson: I think this is where Ryan McKeen would tell you to get a unique link for what you just said and just have it redirect to that.
Tyson: I think that’s–
Kathryn: Guys, I’m working on it. I’m literally having my marketing person, my website person do this right now.
Kathryn: So, go to katherynfburmeister.com and you will be able to find updates about everything.
Yeah. So, if you’re dealing– everybody is. Not if. Everybody is dealing with struggle and to varying degrees. I think the biggest thing you have to do his self-reflect, first and foremost. If you don’t think you have a problem, you’re not going to do anything to help yourself. And I’m not saying it has to be a problem. You know, whether you’re getting clinically diagnosed or, you know, anything about like what happened with myself. It doesn’t have to be. That’s the whole point, right?
You don’t have to hit that point before you say, “I want to be happy in my life. And I want to live a better quality of life.” You’re never going to get to your deathbed saying, “Wow. I wish I worked more.” I don’t care how much you love your job, you’re never going to say, “Wow. I wish I spent all my money on a yacht.” Like, it’s just not going to happen. You’re going to wish you spent more time with family and friends or doing things that you enjoy.
So, really, self-reflecting and finding out what you want out of life. And then, making conscious steps to get there is what you have to do. It can’t be by accident. Mine was by accident to a degree, but you could go your entire life and never have that happen, and be in your 80s, and still be miserable, and then not realize it until it’s too late.
Tyson: All right, Kathryn, we’re going to have to cut it there.
So, I’m going to wrap things up. Before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group, get involved there. There are pushing 5000 members. I’m not sure what it is now, Jimmy. But a lot of members in the group and they’re willing to share a lot of great information every single day. If you are interested in The Guild, join us at maxlawguild.com. A lot of high-level discussions going on there as well. And, if you don’t mind, just taking a couple seconds, while you’re listening to the tips and hacks, just give us a five-star review. We would greatly appreciate it.
Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
Jim: So, I’m reading a great book. And it’s right up there with Traction as far as I’m concerned. And, you know, my wife says that I keep buying the same book over and over just with a different title, but what she ignores is the fact that each book has one little thing in there that’s separate that I can take away and actually act upon.
So, this one’s called The Four Disciplines of Execution. I found out about it listening to some Dan Kennedy stuff. It’s pretty solid and it’s backed by a lot of research. If you’re trying to figure out what are the important things that your firm needs to be focusing on, a lot of it’s in that book, so good stuff. The Four Disciplines of Execution by Chris McChesney, Sean Covey, and Jim Huling.
Tyson: So, I’m trying to look up the guy’s name. You probably remember his name. The guy that wrote Freakonomics, what’s his name?
Jim: Oh, I don’t– those are two guys. I don’t know.
Tyson: Stephen Dubner. Stephen Dubner is one of the authors, right, I think. But he would tell you just to read the first three chapters of those books and you’re going to know everything about that book that you need to know. I don’t think that’s true with every single book but a lot of books that’s absolutely true because they’ll introduce a topic and then beat it to death the rest of the chapters.
But before I get to my tip of the week, and Kathryn, again, plug your book. But also, what is your tip or hack of the week?
Overcoming Addiction to the Status Quo. Don’t just read the first three chapters of my book, you will miss out on a lot of information and the story itself that led to where I am.
So, my biggest tip, I think, because things are so overwhelming, right, generally, now, always. I make a list of three things because I could have a list of a thousand things that I need to get done. I make a list of three personal things and three professional things that I have to get done that day. And it makes it so much more manageable. And you feel fulfilled by being able to actually check off your list and have a list that’s done instead of thinking, “Oh, wow. I only got 10 of the 5000 things done and I still have, you know, however many number to go.” So that’s my biggest tip is break it off into a chunk of three personal and three professional things to get done a day.
Tyson: I love it. Very good.
So, Jimmy, you know that I’ve changed my diet over the last year and it’s led me to lose about 20 pounds which is fantastic. So now I’m like in like the next phase of my changes. And so, I’m now working on going to start working out a little bit more because I’ve let that to fall to the wayside.
So, I actually downloaded an app. And I’m usually not good with these fitness apps but BetterMe it’s one I downloaded. I saw an ad on Twitter. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to check this out.” And they had like some special deal, so I got it for pretty cheap. It’s a subscription. You don’t have to pay for the actual app. You have to pay for the subscription. And they have a– it’s not a free trial but a pretty discounted trial. It’s really cool. It’s got coaching. It gives you actual recipes that gives you like workouts. And not just like, “Hey, here are the workouts. Go do them.” They actually will– there are videos and everything. It’s really, really in-depth and I’m pretty impressed with it. So, I’ve been trying that out and it’s really cool. It reminds you to drink water. It gives you the gamified part of it, too, where they have you, you know, watch a couple videos on how to do things better. It’s really good. So, I recommend it. BetterMe.
Katheryn, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I know it was probably wasn’t the easiest thing to do but thank you so much for coming on.
Kathryn: Well, thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate it.
Jim: All right. Bye, Kathryn.
Tyson: Go out and buy the book whenever it comes out in March. Let’s go get it.
Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.
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