Lawyer With a Life w/ Jordan Ostroff 375

Today on the podcast Jim and Tyson joined Jordan Ostroff. Jordan is the Lawyer with a Life. He works 3 days a week, 20-25 hours per week total across his law firm and marketing company. Jordan's firm handles PI cases in and around Orlando, and LegalEase Marketing is a fractional CMO for law firms to help them create the same plan Jordan went through to get out of the 70-80 hours a week of work and into a much better life. Since MaxLaw Con he and his family have been driving across the country and will continue that for almost a full year because why not? We only get one go through this life, might as well spend it having fun with those you love.

8:56 running two businesses
11:12 personal branding
12:50 implementing systems
14:56 marketing for growth
20:08 from a different angle 

Jim’s Hack: Do you have enough space to make decisions? Carve out space to give yourself freedom to make decisions.

Jordan’s Tip: Double down on what you’re already good at. As a company focus on what you’re the worst at and bring in the help to make it better.

Tyson’s Tip: App: Zello - use as a walkie talkie 

Watch the interview here.

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[music]

Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim:                 Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson:             And I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?

Jim:                 You know the last time we did that routine, you forgot part of your line.

Tyson:             I did at the conference. I was looking at all the people. I was surprised. I don't know. I just completely forgot the “What's up Jimmy?”

Jordan:            It was the bright lights and the big stage.

Jim:                 Yeah.

Tyson:             It’s what it was. I just did-- I wasn't ready for it. I wasn't ready for the big stage.

Jim:                 You know, the funny thing is, is that there's plenty people that were there that don't even know about the podcast. That's sort of the crazy thing is that we've gotten to that point now where people don't even know who Tyson and Jim are which is interesting.

Tyson:             It’s kind of funny. We have the big Facebook group. It’s the same way. There's a lot of people like, “Who's Tyson? Who’s Jim?”

Jim:                 Yeah.

Tyson:             You know, we need to do a better job, Jimmy, of letting people know who we are.

Jim:                 That's right. We do.

Well, let's go ahead and let everyone know who our guest is today. His name is Jordan Ostroff. He presented at the conference. He was very well received. His session was great. He's a lawyer who is on the road. He's going to tell us all about that. And he's got his own marketing company LegalEase Marketing, so we want to hear all about that.

Jordan, welcome to the show.

Jordan:            Hey, thank you guys so much for having me.

Tyson:             So, Jordan, tell people who you are, what you do, and a little bit about your journey.

Jordan:            Sure.

So, I was on the Tyson Mutrux path. So, I started out as a government attorney. Me as a prosecutor, wife as a defense attorney. We actually met in court.

Started a criminal defense practice. And then, at some point, realized that wasn't what we wanted, switched over to PI. And while that was going on, I realized I couldn't find somebody who would market the firm the way that I wanted.

So, my wife enjoys being an attorney. She still continues to practice and oversee the PI department. I moved into more of the marketing role over 2017‑2018. 2019, I started helping some local attorneys in Orlando. And then, 2020, we launched LegalEase to try and take it nationwide, hoping to help other lawyers grow the practice the way that they wanted by marketing the practice the way that they needed to.

Jim:                 Jordan, why is it so hard to find people to help you with your marketing that actually get it? So many marketers are just full of crap, and just sort of square peg round hole, and just try to do whatever they're used to doing, and it's not at all personalized. Why is it so hard to find people to help you market?

Jordan:            I mean, honestly, look, I am totally cognizant there are a bunch of snake oil salespeople in the space but, really, for me, the biggest issue that we found is kind of twofold, it’s attorneys not having that big overarching vision or not hiring somebody to set that part up and then it's the marketing companies not checking on the sales strategy. So, you may actually not have a marketing problem you may have a sales problem which ends up looking like a marketing problem because you're getting in a ton of leads that you can't close. So, those are the two things that I know were my biggest issue and they seem to be pretty consistent across other attorneys.

Tyson:             Why a marketing company? I wonder. You've got it law practice. It seems to be doing well. Like, why step out of that and do the marketing stuff?

Jordan:            So, honestly, because in my three years as a prosecutor and first three years as a criminal defense attorney, I saw more colleagues commit suicide, have a heart attack or stroke and die in their office than who retired. And, you know, I can't say that like if you get a bunch of good cases tomorrow that's going to not make you depressed, but I certainly think that having that income stream, having that revenue, allows you to have money to hire employees, bring in vendors, say no to those clients with the giant red flags, afford the right, you know, help that you need, whether it's you know, mental, or physical, or whatever it is along those lines. And I just think attorneys get stuck in this grind of having to, you know, I guess, grind ourselves into dust rather than really trying to create a practice that we can be proud of.

Jim:                 I think that it's really hard for lawyers to let go of their marketing. And most lawyers are really bad at marketing so that's sort of ironic. But, having sat through some mastermind sessions and just talking to people at the conference, I think the other part is people just don't know where to start and they don't know how to properly supervise outside marketing vendors. What advice would you have for people on those lines, Jordan?

Jordan:            I mean, look, I would take it back to your ideal client. And I think, Jim, you did an awesome job with those five questions that I think we've talked about like four times in the last week, so far. Jim walked us through and went on stage with somebody about, you know, who doesn't know they have a problem? Who knows they have a problem but doesn't know what the options are? Who knows what the options are but can't make a decision? Who's going to be a raving fan? And I'm missing one, sorry.

But, anyway, that's really what it comes down to is, you know, who do you want to work with? How do you actually help them? And then, you gear everything towards that. You know, where you show up, how you show up, what you say, what you offer, etc. all comes back to that core thing. And it makes it really easy because, if you've got you know, a million‑dollar budget, you can be everything to everybody. But I believe everybody listening to this doesn't. And so, therefore, the more you focus, the easier it is to figure out, “Okay. Well, SEO doesn't make sense for me, or pay‑per‑click ads don't make sense for me, or this is the platform where my clients are already going to be” and you can really focus your efforts, your money, your time in a place that's the most potentially advantageous for you as opposed to just throwing a bunch of money out the window and hoping the right person grabs a business card.

Tyson:             I think it's kind of interesting, your position, because I'm assuming that you still get marketing companies that still try to market to your firm and they try to get you to hire them, the thing, which means they just didn't do any of the research. But have you been able to identify any like common lies that marketing companies tell the lawyers to try to get them to hire them?

Jordan:            Sure.

And along your lines, Tyson, though, I will say, about 50% of them that are like, well, we white label our services, once I tell them that I run a marketing company.

The biggest lie is page one of Google. And not that that's not a great thing and that's not an option but a lot of companies will email you with the, “Hey, I can guarantee you page one of Google.” And, sure, they can. You know, for “Jordan Ostroff, personal injury lawyer, in Orlando, Florida who wears Hawaiian shirts.” Boom, I'm probably three spots on the top page of Google. It's really that understanding of what are people actually looking for that makes the most sense. And then, you can take that same thing and push it into every other ad strategy.

So, you know, “Hey, I can get you a 10X return on ads.” Well, you’ve got to make sure it's the right ads. You know, if you're not doing that area of law, if that's not your ideal thing. I mean, Jim did a great job talking about the asylum cases versus citizenship stuff. And so, you may be able to look at a better ROI for a case that actually costs you more money in the long run.

Jim:                 Jordan, when you presented at the conference, I was running around with Becca doing a couple of things. Walk through, for everybody who wasn't at the conference, what your talk was about.

Jordan:            Sure.

So, in essence, I did the seven essential questions of marketing. And I walked everybody through the questions that we ask ourselves when we're about to run a campaign, for my firm - for LegalEase, or for clients. And it goes with, you know, your ideal client, you know, Where are you talking to them? Where do you want this to be? What do you want to say? All of those things. And it helps people really try and focus what makes the most sense.

What does success actually look like for this campaign? What do I need to do after the campaign? What do I want the reader, or the watcher, or the listener to do after they hear this ad, this post, this piece of content? And so, I think, by having those like connection questions, it makes it a lot easier to figure out where this one thing fits in that overarching picture, that overarching chain, that funnel, whatever you want to call it.

Tyson:             I'm curious about the feedback you got after your presentation. And the feedback that I got from people was really, really good. I just wonder what people said to you about it.

Jordan:            Yeah. I mean, look, in the amazing community you have built, I can't imagine somebody going and be like, “Well, that was really a waste of my time. Thanks, man.” So, obviously, you know, ton of good feedback.

For me, I always kind of look at it for the questions. So, when you get really good questions, that is the mark of a good presentation because if people didn't actually listen, they didn't pay attention, they're not going to ask questions because they don't want to, you know, ask you about something you already talked about.

Coincidentally enough, I think my best question came from my wife. So, in the future, I need to run all my presentations by her before I do them in front of, you know, a hundred or so people because I should have just put her question. She said, you know, “Walk us through an example.” So, you know, a minute and a half left, here I am sliding back through all of the slides to go through an example, the seven questions, as it plays out. And, really, that should have been the entire focus of the presentation to help people have an easy example to follow.

Jim:                 Yeah. I thought that too, when I pulled Tom up on stage, it sort of crystallized everything. And, you know, it's definitely live without a net when you don't have it set up ahead of time, but I think it also lends itself to some greater creativity.

Jordan:            Well, and the beauty is like I don't like people that try and sell a specific solution. There are certainly times for that. And like I had Seth Price on yesterday. And Seth was talking about the kinds of law that tend to be the best for SEO. So, you know, they're making that fit correctly. But when you have somebody who's like, “Everybody needs X. Everybody needs X. Everybody needs X.” I think that's a huge problem. But when you have the same questions that people have different answers to, that's where you really find the right strategy for your firm, for your ideal clients, for the growth of your practice.

Tyson:             And it's something that Jim and I kind of talk about sometimes, too, because you do get these people that, you know, if you're a hammer, everything's a nail kind of a thing. “So, you've got to do this. You’ve got to absolutely do this. This is going to solve all your problems,” which is not true.

But I want to ask you about-- I mean, you've got your feet into buckets, right? I mean, are you running the firm? Are you running the marketing company? How do you deal with that? Because, I mean, Jim and I are kind of-- we've got kind of got something similar. We've got Maximum Lawyer, but we've also got a law firm. So, how do you manage the two?

Jordan:            Yes. So, right off the bat, I work three days a week. Probably with this tour that we're on, we're going to go to two days a week, so just Mondays and Thursdays. So that helps me see what actually needs to be done by me because I've got limited time.

So, I actually posted on Instagram yesterday with my schedule for yesterday. So, we do a modified EOS Level 10 meeting for both companies Monday morning to make sure we had all our KPIs for last week and whatever we need to address rocks, issues, etc. Then, I've got lunch. Then, I do meetings. I am currently doing the consults for LegalEase but that's about the extent of it is prospecting and sales.

On the law firm side, I'm really just a visionary and helping as the face of the firm to create leads. So, I don't do anything fulfillment‑wise in either company which makes it scalable, because it's not me being the one who has to do all the work. And that's what allows me the time to actually be a visionary, be a business owner, be a content creator - whatever somebody wants to call me.

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Jim:                 You're listening to the Maximum Lawyer Podcast Our guest today is our friend Jordan Ostroff, fresh off his red hot take at MaxLawCon 2021.

Jordan, talk to us about the road trip. What's the game plan? And what is the marketing that you're going to create out of it? I'm very interested in the content that's going to come out of this.

Jordan:            Sure.

Honestly, if anybody wants to have the weirdest, most vain conversations of your entire life, do a personal branding session because like literally the entire concept that you're talking about is like what do you learn as a brand, not as a person, but as like a concept. And so, when we did this, internally for me, like, basically, I'm a lifestyle brand. Like I work 25 hours a week. I really enjoy my life because I've got good systems, I've got great people, and we don't have anybody at any of the businesses who is forced to work 24 hours a day. Whereas the companies can still run 24 hours a day or whatever it needs to be along those lines. And I think that's the issue that a lot of lawyers have. So, we've consistently been trying to focus on great systems and even better people to execute those systems.

And, really, my wife and I were itching to travel because of everything with COVID. And so, we're like, “You know what? We haven't been around the country that much so why don't we just go for, you know, a little end of being about 11 months.” I mean, actually, the timing of it worked out perfectly. I rented out my house to my business partner on LegalEase. They have a kid coming. They needed a larger space. And the roof collapsed on where they were staying. So, it was sort of one of those things where the universe provides the exact right opportunity.

So, we drove up to Atlanta, flew to St. Louis, and now we're in Birmingham. After this, we'll go to Memphis, Little Rock, Hot Springs, Dallas, Houston. Then, we'll go back to Orlando for a week. Then, we'll do Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Big Bend National Park, Carlsbad Caverns, Roswell, White Sands, Albuquerque. Fly back. And then, we'll end up in San Diego. Then, we'll go up the coast, etc.

So, at some point, in early June, we'll be back in St. Louis. I don't know if that'll be a flight or a drive because we were expecting to be out until August, but we've got some of it mapped out. And, otherwise, we're just going to have fun.

Tyson:             So, Jordan, how long did it take for you to kind of realize that you could do this? Because it takes a long time for people to even hire one person. So, what you're doing is quite advanced. So, how long did it take for that to click and then to implement it?

Jordan:            Honestly, for me-- that's a great question because it really has a tough answer. So, I had to screw up a million times. And I still make a ton of mistakes now but, at least. I kind of know enough to make the right mistakes, if that makes sense.

So, I opened up my firm in 2015. I had no idea what I was doing. But I had been in Orlando long enough through, at UCF for undergrad, Barry for law school, interning at the State Attorney's Office, working as a State Attorney. So, I developed a good amount of referral sources without really doing it intentionally. And so, I was like, “Hey, you know, now I just need to hire a marketing company. They'll accelerate this. I'll be able to make a bunch of money and do nothing.”

And then, you know, fast forward 12 to 18 months, and I'm $200,000 in debt. I've hired a bunch of people to get cases that I don't have, to spend more money to get cases, to fund the people that are costing me money. And so, really, it was my wife telling me. She was pregnant with our kid. I was super happy immediately. But then, I was like, “How are we going to do this?” You know, we're working 70 - 80 hours a week. Both of us, on the firm. This is the whole revenue stream. You know, what are we going to do? And the options were close down or really figure out what was wrong.

And so, I had known Greg, my business partner on LegalEase for a while, and he was nice enough to give me a couple hours of time and, basically, was like, “Well, dude, you're missing marketing 101. Like, Who's your ideal client? What do you want? What does the firm look like? What are KPIs?” All that stuff. I just completely skipped over all those in the chase of like, “I'll give you money and you give me cases to give me more money.”

And so, I just recreated everything from scratch and, eventually, worked out to what I wanted. And I think that's the biggest thing for your listeners here, all of our great maximum lawyers, what firm do you want? Like, how much time of yours does it take? What work are you actually doing in that timeframe? How much money are you making? And then, you can create all these other decisions around that. You know, if you want to be the rain maker, great, hire service lawyers. If you want to be the lawyer, great. Then, hire marketers, in some manner, to bring in the cases. Neither answer’s right or wrong. It's the one that's right for you.

Jim:                 One of the great things about having experts on the show is that we get to ask them for advice for ourselves. And I'm wondering, you're very familiar with the MaxLaw community. You see what we've got going on with The Guild and everything else in the conference. What advice would you have for Tyson and I as we look to the future for Max Law?

Jordan:            Great question. I mean, I think you guys talked about it at the beginning. You know, how many people don't know there's a podcast or don't know about the two of you. And so, I think it's really, you know, settling down on what's the role that Jim and what's the role that Tyson play in Maximum Lawyer as a thing. And, you know, maybe that's being more involved, maybe it's not. You know, you all are up to make that decision. Obviously, you guys have a ton of things going on.

And, at least, from my experience, it looks like you guys are doing a phenomenal job at everything. So, I take my hat off to you on that. But that would be my biggest thing. You just kind of figure out, you know, what role do you all want to play? Do you want to be more active in the Facebook group? Do you want everybody in the Facebook group to know about the podcast or do you not care? You just want attorneys to get together, connect, be happy and learn something in whatever manner makes the most sense for them?

Because I'll tell you, across every lawyer community, I think you guys have the one that is the least toxic. And, obviously, I mean that in a much better way. Like it's not that it's just slightly toxic, but so many other groups after a conference, it's like, who got the biggest steak? Who flew first class here? Who did this? Who did that? Whereas, at Max Law like the person sitting next to me, whether they made $10,000, last year, or a million bucks, I don't care. Are they a cool person? Are they abundance mindset? Do they want to learn and commit to everybody else? And I think that's a testament to, you know, a million decisions you all made intentionally or unintentionally to get that group together.

Tyson:             It really is a cool group, man. It is such a cool group of people. And the support from everybody at the conference and just in in the group, it's just amazing. It really is. So, I don't know what Jim and I have done.

Jim, yeah, go ahead.

Jim:                 And that goes back to something that Tyson I really struggled with at the beginning, Jordan. I think it's instructive for law firm owners too is that we spent a lot of time thinking about, “Do we want to go out and convince people that our viewpoint is correct, that our approach to practicing law and running a law firm is correct, or do we want to attract the people who think like we do, who have that growth mindset, or that abundance mindset?” And so, we, wisely and luckily, decided to focus on the people who already get it. And we started small. And it's growing. And it's the spirit, I think, more than anything that attracts people.

Jordan:            Yeah. So, along those lines, I want to flip it on you all, because we just got out of this conference, you all did a great job presenting and putting this group together. I'm most curious to know, what are each of you most impressed about the other person for doing as you continue to run practices, grow Maximum Lawyer, launch the Guild, etc.?

Tyson:             Jim, I'll let you go first so I can think.

Jordan:            There we go, spoken like a good trial attorney.

Jim:                 No, that's perfect because I had to write a letter of recommendation for Tyson yesterday for some award he’s up for, so I'm like--

Jordan:            Oh, okay.

Jim:                 --and I was happy to do it.

Well, there's a lot about Tyson that impresses me and that drives me. And that is, you know, he's achieved a ton for being such a young person. Like, I wish that I had started with my stuff as early as he did. You know, he's always been focused. When I taught him in class, he sat in the front row, and he was ready, and taking notes. And, you know, the reason we even started the podcast was just because we were having such great conversations riffin’ back and forth on things that we wanted to fix. So, I just think his devotion to his family, his drive to improve, his not settling for second best, and for making the right decisions quickly when he needs to. I think those are all the things that sort of keep us going. And, you know, I made like, three follow throughs. So, Tyson keeps the trains running.

And, you know, I think if we were to put it in traction terms, I like to think of myself a lot as a visionary. And I'm not so great at integrating things. So, I think that's one of the reasons that we've worked well together.

Tyson:             Very nice of you, Jimmy.

You know, Jim's interesting because I think the Jim that you know, today is not the same Jim that you knew five years ago. He's immensely more confident.

Would you agree with that, Jim?

He never stops learning which is fantastic. But he's got this ability and we’ll be on these Guild hotseat at times, and it pisses me off so much because he sees something that I didn’t see. He sees this-- it's weird. He's got this-- he can see this angle. And it drives me nuts that I can't see it sometimes. It just drives me freaking nuts.

And Jim's laughing, for those of you listening.

He has the ability to see things in some people, in some situations, that I can't see. And I think that that's-- I think it's a matter of time. I'll get there. I will. But I just don't have that ability, so.

And, also, Jim is better at being vulnerable about things and showing like who he actually is. And I'm trying. I'm working at that. I will tell you that. But it's hard. I don't know how he does it. It's something that he does, but it makes him more likeable, and people trust him more. It's one of those things that I think it's very admirable. That’s something I'd love to be able to do. I'm working on it. But I think that's his greatest strength. It really is. It's like a superpower, in my opinion.

Jordan:            Well, and I think both of those go hand in hand. Like, Jim, I don't want to get too much into your story but, obviously, everything that you've been through and the experience it's given you and also the perspective it's given you, you know, being involved in a case as a party and explaining your vulnerability to all of us through that. I mean, I think that's a lot of what gives you that opportunity to see things from that different angle.

Jim:                 And I think that's what feeds the whole big group too is that, at our conference, no one's up there saying, like you said, Jordan, “I've got a $100‑million verdict.” Although Gary Burger did talk about his verdict but that was more about how to run a law firm while trying to collect a big verdict.

Jordan:            But now he's got to do it again so it's not even a--

Jim:                 Right.

Jordan:            It is what it is.

Jim:                 So, yeah, I mean, I think that we try to lead with vulnerability.

And I think Tyson's talk about nerds and weirdos was, in essence-- you know, a weirdo is just a nerd who's embraced their vulnerability and not, you know, too concerned with what the outside world thinks. So, I thought that was a good bridge between where some people are at and some people want to go.

Jordan:            Yeah, absolutely.

I think what all this boils down to is finding what you like, finding who you want to help, finding the firm that you want, and really making that personal the whole way through because I think that's what helps you achieve things at a young age, or follow through on stuff you otherwise wouldn't do, or get the better perspective and really enjoy that constant learning.

Tyson:             I love it.

All right, Jordan. We're over time so I'm going to wrap things up. And, plus, I know you probably want to get back to spend time with your family.

So, before I do, I want to remind everyone to go to the Facebook group. We're right around 5000 members so get involved there. A lot of great information being shared. If you're interested in a more high-level conversation, go to maxlawguild.com.

I guess I'm not going to promo the conference as of right now. Actually, yes, I can. I didn't think about this. MaxLawCon2022.com. it will be in St. Louis, June 2 and 3. If I'm wrong with those dates, the correct dates will be on the website. But if you do want to go to the conference next year, if you missed out this year, please join us in St. Louis.

Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Jim:                 So, having sat through 12 hot seats on Monday and then the conference itself, the one thing that really stuck out for me was that some people don't have enough space to make decisions, that they're playing too tight, and that they're-- like, literally, you can see them physically tight, and I saw time and time again, and it worried me for some people. So, I really think that the people that are growing and that are expanding and/or improving what they want to improve, it's because they've found that space. If you're just going-- you know, we talk all the time about the perils of just going, going, going, but I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle, and that is that you have to affirmatively carve out the space to give yourself the freedom to make bigger decisions.

We're out here in San Diego. I'm making my way back. And Amany and I had probably one of our best talks ever about where the firm is headed. And really what it was it was our first real same page meeting as owners where we sort of stopped doing our usual Jim saying, “Yeah, let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this.” And Amany saying, “No, no, no.” And it's only because we had that space. We’re away from the office and we weren't working in the business that we could make a good decision.

Tyson:             I like that. That's really good.

Did you finally convince Amany to let you open her office? I'm assuming that's what the discussion was about with some other office you were going to open?

Jim:                 No. It's about going all in. And she's going all in. So, it's a big shift.

Tyson:             Amany has moved her chips to the center of the table. I love it. Great. I love it.

All right, Jordan. You know the routine. What is your tip or hack of the week?

Jordan:            You know, so to be totally honest to everybody listening, I have been prepping more for the tip or hack of the week, what was the most important thing? And now it's going to sound like I'm just jumping off of what Jim said.

So, my two cents is you, as an individual, you want to double down on what you're already good at. So, if you are a great lawyer, be a better lawyer. If you're a great business owner, become a better business owner. If you're a great rainmaker, become a better rainmaker.

As a company though, you want to spend your efforts focusing on what you are the worst at as a company, whether that's bringing somebody in, whether that's training somebody out, whether that's moving people around, whether that's bringing in a vendor or outside help some manner. So, that's the dichotomy that I want you to focus on for the next week and, hopefully, the rest of your firm.

Tyson:             Yeah.

This isn’t my tip, but I do want to say. One of the things that opened my eyes the most, at the conference, not the most, but one of the most, Ryan Anderson's talk about his rockstar executive team. It was really interesting because it really opened my eyes to the idea that I need to have an executive team, right? Not just a team but an executive team that helps run the firm. So, if you're looking to be a chief operating officer or a CFO, let me know because we're going to be hiring some people soon that are going to be running the firm. So that kind of goes off what you're talking about. All right.

But my tip is not nearly as fun as either one of those, to be honest with you, but it is kind of fun. I don't know if there's a business use yet for it or not. But I found this app called Zello. And I found it accidentally because I was looking for radios for whenever I'm in a plane. So, when you're flying, the radio goes down, you want to have a backup, right? When you're flying, there’s all these redundancies so that, if one thing goes wrong, you can go and use something else. And I found this app called Zello. And, apparently, you can talk on the radio on it. But you can, I think, use it as a walkie talkie which is kind of cool.

So, with multiple offices, I was actually going to see if the team wanted to play around with it as a walkie talkie because I think, at the very least, it'll be a little bit of fun. I don't know if there's a business use for it yet. But I just thought it’s something kind of fun.

So, Zello is the app. It's free, so you can play around with it. I have not found anybody to talk to you yet but. So, if you want to get on Zello and talk to me, let me know, so.

Jordan:            There we go.

Tyson:             That is--

Jordan:            It’s Slack. 2.0, the old school walkie talkies. It’s the over and out.

Tyson:             There you go. I love it.

All right, that is my tip of the week.

Jordan, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. And thank you so much for being at the conference. Excellent. And thank you for sponsoring as well. You are a sponsor, LegalEase Marketing. If you need a marketing agency, give them a call.

Thank you so much, Jordan.

Jordan:            Thank you so much for having me, guys.

Jim:                 See you, guys.

Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.

Have a great week and catch you next time.

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