The 6 Systems We Can’t Live Without w/ Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux 354

Today on the podcast Jim and Tyson discuss the 6 Systems they can’t live without.

2:52 Editing YouTube videos
4:32 Tyson’s hiring process
9:10 top and bottom of the funnel
16:43 lawsuit preparation
19:20 deposition training

Jim’s Hack: Jim gets some of his best YouTube video advice from his daughter, if you have teenagers ask them what makes them want to watch and you’ll get great ideas. 

Tyson’s Tip: If you press and hold your internet browser tabs on your iPhone you can reorder your tabs.

Watch the interview here.

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[music]

Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. My name is Jim Hacking.

Tyson: And I am Tyson Mutrux. What is up?

Jim: How are you doing, buddy? I'm just being weird.

Tyson: Yeah, you are. I'm doing all right, man. How about you?

Jim: Oh, good. Good to see you.

Tyson: Good to see you.

I put it in the earbuds because it reminds us, every time we use StreamYard, to use earbuds and sometimes there's a lag. I don't know if you noticed that. So, I'm testing this out, just in case that's what causes the lag. So, I think the sound sounds okay.

Jim: I was making those weird noises because, you know, this Mac is probably, I don't know, five-- four or five years old and the speaker pops. So, I'm going to get a new one and this will be my backup. So, I'm excited about that. But, anyway, how are you doing?

Tyson: Woah! Hold on. Real quick though that's the thing about Mac’s. Those of you that are PC users that knock Mac’s, the price, that’s because they last forever. I mean, I literally have one that is in use right now, like full use, and I got it in 2010. Okay, 2010, full use. I mean, it's a frickin’-- and it's a beast. It works well.

Jim: Yeah, that's awesome. It's funny though my speakers have also blown in my Mac laptop, too. So, I'm waiting for that new 16-inch M1 processor to come out on the laptop. And, once it does, then I'll get the old one, the speakers fixed, and then I'll give it to Noor because it's great.

Tyson: Yeah. So, I bought this laptop that I'm on right now. I love it. It’s a MacBook Pro. And, a month later, you said, “Hey, man, why didn't you wait?” It’s because I didn't know. I didn't know they're coming out with a new one. So, I was like, “Gosh. Damn it.”

Jim: Well, let's turn to our topic for today. And that is the six systems, three for you, three for me, that neither of us can live without. I thought that was a great idea. And the fun thing was is you came up with that in about 60 seconds flat. I said, “What were you talking about?” 

Tyson: Yeah. 

Jim: Yeah, you had that thing in your back pocket, I think.

Tyson: Boom! I mean, you and I both have a bunch of ideas. Not as many as Jay Ruane probably, but Jay Ruane is just an idea machine.

Yeah. So, I don't really know what had me thinking about that, but I thought it was a good idea. And one of them, there's going to be an overlap with one of them, I think. But I think that just shows how important that one system is, but we'll get to that in a second.

But, no. I think it's also a nice little peek behind the curtain for people as to what systems we have. And I think one's going to be a little bit interesting for most people. They're going to be like, “Oh, that's kind of weird that that's that important to you,” but-- I don't know. I think it's cool. 

Do you want to go with your first one?

Jim: Yeah. So, I tried to put mine in chronological order based on, you know, the client acquisition and then fulfillment. So, my first one is our system for editing YouTube videos. So, when I started doing videos, five years ago, I was like the one-man show. I would shoot the video. I would edit the video. I would upload the video. And I would allegedly optimize it for YouTube.

Well, then, you'll recall, we had our old crackerjack intern, Kent Richardson, who helped me streamline that process and got me out of the process of doing the editing. And then, now, my son, Ismail, who's a rising sophomore at San Diego State, he's been editing the videos. So, now, all I do is I shoot the video, I edit a little Google Doc that has the title of the video, the subject - you know, like the little conversation blurb about the video. And then, he uses TubeBuddy to put in all of our tags and properly categorize the video. And he edits it. And I have nothing to do with it.

Sort of like with this podcast, on sort of the same approach, is that, you know, we just create the content. As Dean Jackson would say, we're the self-milking cow, you know, where we just do the little part that we have to do. And then, everything else is taken care of. I don't even touch the video. Once I'm done shooting it, I just uploaded it to the Google Drive and that's the end of it for me.

Tyson: Ours is kind of similar to that. It's not the same, but it's kind of similar. But it's crack intern. It's not crackerjack intern, just so we're clear. You called Kent, the crackerjack intern. It's a crack intern. I think that's the phrase.

I did not list mine when it comes to chronological order or anything, but I'm going to re-work my-- I'm going to go by importance, right. So, my number one process is the hiring process. And it's really, really crucial. Whenever I was working with Jason Selk, he actually really encouraged me to work on this because we were in the middle of hiring people. It was a real pain. He's like, “Do you have a system for it?” I was like, “No. Actually, I don't.”

Now, we're able to take it and just, when we need new people, we just plug it in. We start the process and it goes. And it starts with, obviously, the job ad. We have a bunch of just canned job ads that we have inside of Tetra that we, basically, just copy and paste and edit for our needs. But we have them, you know, for associates or what we call our CCC's case managers. They're already formatted a little bit different. So, we post that. That's a pretty obvious part of it. 

Then, we start with a phone interview because we just want to kind of get a feel for them and make sure that they're normal, make sure that they're good on the phone, because one of the deal breakers for us is, if you're not-- I mean, it doesn't matter what the position is, if you're not good on the phone, you're not going to work for us. It's just you’ve got to have some sort of phone etiquette.

So, phone process. If they make it past that, we then send them an application, via email, and they have to fill it out and then send it back to us via PDF. It's one of those things that it weeds out a lot of people that can't figure out how to do that. If you can't figure out how to send us back a PDF, you're gone.

After they've done that, they do a personality test. After they've done a personality test, we have them do a series of quizzes. If it's for an associate, we have them send us a writing sample. If they make it past that point, then they do their first full interview. And then, after that, we have an interview with them that's over coffee. Now, with COVID, we've been doing that a little bit different. We've been doing that just a nice little chat via Zoom. And then, if we need a fourth interview, if we're down to a couple of candidates, we do another interview in the office with a couple of follow-up questions.

So, that's the process. And if you're wondering what the point of having a coffee is, it's because we want to see how they interact with people in an unscripted environment. And it works really, really well. We want to see to make sure that they treat people with respect and can sort of think on their toes, even though it's not that much of a thing where you're, you know, having to think on your toes that much. It's still you do pick up on little bitty things. It's kind of a nice revealing thing for us.

So, that is our hiring process.

Jim: Well, I'm really glad you brought that up because-- for several reasons. One is, I think that might be something that most people do a lot on the fly and don't think to systematize it. That's one thing that I like about what you said.

Also, we have a relatively similar process to what you outlined but the gray part is I don't really know what the whole process is. I sort of get involved at the part that I need to which is talking to the person. Now, we have officially hired our first person that I never met so I'm really excited about that. This is going to be Amany’s admin assistant. And I did not meet them. So, I'm glad to be getting out a little bit of that as well.

I was thinking, you know, that coffee that you mentioned. You know, I wonder if it would be fun to do it at the same coffee place every time and to talk to the people at the place and say, “Hey, look. I'm going to come in here with these prospects and I want you to always screw up their order. Bring in something wrong, you know, with their order,” just so we can see how they react. Now, that's a little bit manipulative and a little bit dysfunctional, but I think it would be interesting because, you know, you might not have an opportunity at all to see how they interact with other people like if they get there first-- or if they sit down and make their order before you get there, you might not have that chance to see how they actually interact. I love to see how people treat, you know, staff at a restaurant when the young man I met with in Baltimore about our lawyer job in DC, I was watching for sure to see how he interacted with the support staff and he passed that with flying colors.

Tyson: I think it's a great idea because the places that we do go to-- there are places that we go to on a regular basis and I can easily set that up. I think it's a great idea. That's a fantastic idea. I'm stealing that.

Although I don't like to do things like that too much. I don't like to create things like that. But it's a great idea because it does force that situation where they've got to react and it shows their true colors. Because you know how it is, man. Sometimes, people they can fake it. You know what I mean? And if you throw something that's unscripted like that at ‘em, they may not be able to handle it. So, I really like that idea. I'm stealing it.

By the way, we're in the middle of hiring two new people. What I love about it is-- I mean, I created the system, so I know what it is, but I haven't talked to one freakin’ person. And we've been interviewing people the last two weeks. So, it's been great. It's been awesome.

All right. What is your second system?

Jim: I think we both had one related to leads. So, if I had to put this in order of priority, this would be my number one. And that is, you know, the system for the top of the funnel to the bottom of the funnel. You know, we have it well tuned now with the people that come into our atmosphere. You know, they come into the Hacking Immigration Law world. They might come in many different ways - from YouTube, from email, from Facebook, from past referrals, whatever, but, you know, we have a system for capturing every lead. And then, I'm marketing to them based on what they're interested in.

And then, we have a system for our leads team to follow up with the person, then to qualify the lead. If the lead is qualified, they have the chance to talk to a lawyer. And one of the big things about qualifying them there is that they're open to the prospect of paying the kind of legal fees that we charge. And then, and only then, do they talk to the lawyer. And then, if they talk to the lawyer and things go well, the lawyer can have the contract on their phone to them in 60 seconds. It's really remarkable.

Now, this system and the next system that we're going to talk about, from my end, are things that we spent hours, and hours, and hours building. And it's like my old friend Marwan said that he learned from the Army is, you know, “go slow to go fast,” you know. So, we had to really go slow.

And, actually, our contract thing is always a work in progress. We're actually going back to PandaDoc because we've really developed this really pretty attorney-client agreement that looks really nice and we're just about ready to finish that up. And that's assuming we’ll continue into-- after they sign the contract, then, they're automatically invoiced.

So, we're going to have a system from the moment they say, “Yes, send me the contract” to paying us money. That will all be automated and all trackable. And, you know, with that well-built out funnel, you can see where people are falling through the cracks.

So, that is my number one system and the thing that we rely on the most.

Tyson: And that's the thing. I mean, before, you had leaks in the boat, right? And so, that was money. The leaks was money going to through the boat. And now you can look at it and say, “Okay. This is where there's a leak in the boat. And that's where I can fix it.”

And you're right, this is my number two as well. It's down to leads, right? It's our lead system. Ours is very similar to yours because ours is crafted based upon the Gary Falkowitz podcast series that you did. And we've got our scripts and everything based upon that.

We have a form that our people fill out. So, our CCCs, those are the people that answer the phones. They do what's called a micro intake and they go through a script. They fill out the form. They ask a bunch of questions. And based upon those questions, essentially, one of three things happens - either the case is declined, we send it over to a case manager to sign up the case. Or, if that's one that an attorney needs to review, it goes into a case review section in [inaudible 00:11:57]. So, it’s a Kanban board where it’s slid over. Then, an attorney does get on. But we try to remove the attorney from the situation to get the case signed up right away.

But let's say it is a case, the contract goes out immediately while they're on the phone. So, you slide over, in [inaudible 00:12:12], the lead over. I'm saying slide over, if you're looking at a Kanban board, we have something called “send contract.” You slide it over to “send contract.” The contract goes out automatically. They receive it. We make sure that they sign it over the phone. Once they sign the contract, electronically, it automatically opens up a file in Filevine so no one has to go in and do double entry. It's just, once that initial information is entered in, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, it’s opened up. Once they've signed it.

And then, what we do is called a full intake and that a case manager goes through and does a full intake. So, we have that basic information at the beginning until they've signed the case. And then, we do that full, more detailed, probably 45-minute long thorough intake.

Jim: Nice.

Tyson: I'm pretty excited about that because It’s like you said though, we had to slow down, we had to build it out. It took some time. You know, I hit some roadblocks myself so I had to hire someone and they've finished it out for me. And it's one of those things, you once you've got that down, it saves hours, upon hours, upon hours.

But then, also, you see where, “Okay. We get this lead here. What's going on with this lead?” You can point to that lead and either they’re a dead lead at a certain point where they’re someone that we can go back to. We sign up the case that the case we really, really wanted. And we had been following up, and following up, and following up. And one Saturday-- it was last Saturday, actually. Out of the blue. I get an alert that the contract’s been signed and the base of the file has been opened up automatically in Filevine. And it's because we had been continually following up with her, repeatedly. And we knew that because it was on our Kanban board and we could follow up with her. So, it was pretty exciting. It was a really, really big case. So, it's really, really important.

And also, here's another thing, I'll add this before we get to the next one. It also allows us to project because we put our average case value on it and it automatically autopopulates once a lead comes through and it inputs our average case value. And so, we know. We can project out, in six to nine months, how much money we're going to make based upon those projections. Pretty cool.

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Jim: I think there's a couple of things to note about all this, too. And one is that, you know, I always thought that the reason you wanted to systematize was to make your firm go faster. And there's certainly that aspect of it, too.

But, also, if you do your systems right, it's also really going to cut down on mistakes. I think that's something that sort of gets lost in the drive towards systems is that you think that it's just about making things faster but, really, it's about squeezing out the opportunity for error. And that's really where that time comes from. It’s like figuring out all the ways something can go off track and then make it, what I would say, dummy-proof so that you almost can't make certain mistakes. And then, whenever a mistake pops up, you tweak the system.

Tyson: I completely agree. I mean, there's the speed element. It probably has sped things up quite a bit.

I mean, there are a lot of benefits like we're here to make more money, right? That's another part of it because you're not going to lose out on those leads. You're going to make it, you know, dummy proof, like you were talking about. You are going to be able to do more on a file because you've automated parts of it, right?

So, you know, I talk to people all the time how, “Oh, I really wish I had time to do this, this, this, this, and this on a file but we just don't have enough time.” Well, you automate stuff like this and, guess what, you now have time to do those things that you think are important on that file. So, it does free up your time to do other things.

Jim: This is a great segue into my third system that I can't live without and that is our lawsuit preparation system. So, in the old days, when I would file lawsuits against USCIS or the State Department, that would be Jim pulling up the last complaint that we did, plugging in the new client’s information, plugging in the details of his case or her case. And then, you know, issuing a new lawsuit or creating a new lawsuit off that. I wasn't even using a template. I would just go through, and cut and paste, and take out the old one, and put in the new one. That was, obviously, very slow. And it also led to lots of mistakes.

So, Kelsey Bratcher and I spent, literally, 44 hours - 44 hours of actual time, building out a template for lawsuits. And it's changed twice. But, now, we have, I think, 12 or 13 different template types. So, it's just what kind of case is it? Plug in the information into Filevine, hit a button, and out comes the lawsuit. I mean, out comes the summonses for federal court.

So, we finished up that project about a year and a half ago, so like early 2020. And, in December, I had a new paralegal start on December 10. And by the end of the year, she had filed 14 lawsuits on her own with, you know, like five minutes of Jim time. So, that has allowed us--

Now, at this time, we've sued them 900 times and we've got it down pat. Now, we can even change it based on which court it is. We had been filing all of our lawsuits in DC. But, now, I have a drop down for wherever it is. It just sends it out with that proper or court information, so it's pretty great. And I'm almost completely out of lawsuits except for when issues arise.

Tyson: You see, I love that. It's one that's on our list. It's lower on our list. I think our lawsuits are a little easier because ours are all Word documents and yours are more PDFs and you had built the system. And it's one of the systems that we've got DOCGEN, sort of. But we set it to go in and make some edits. But ours are a little easier than yours. But it's on our list to do something similar.

And you're right about those federal court summons, you have to actually-- that's such a pain in the butt because you've got to fill out your own summons. I know, for some of you, you have to do that in your state. But, in Missouri, we don't have. Missouri, the courts do it for you. It's kind of easy but it's kind of a pain in the butt. After you filed it, you’ve got to go in. Actually, no, with federal court, you’ve got to fill it in before and file it with your lawsuit but it's a total pain.

Well, mine-- I think this is the one I think might be surprising for people. It's our deposition training. And what we used to do was, you know, you’d meet with the client for about an hour or so. And then, you know, you do the deposition prep. And then, you have the deposition.

And sometimes we'd have like also a pre-depo call, but we were finding that those clients just were not prepared with that one meeting. They just weren’t. They had a lot of questions. And we'd also like-- basically, the process before was you send out this little, you know, PDF for them to review. And then, you have a meeting about it. And then, maybe a phone call. And then, you have the depo.

But clients just weren't very prepared for their depositions. And so, what we had built out instead is a deposition training course. It's a series of emails and an actual course inside of Mighty Networks, the app. And they get a series of emails with trainings. I mean, it's a very in-depth, thorough training.

I know everyone on the Guild or most people in The Guild have actually gone and looked at it. It's a combination of actual text, and video, and pictures. And we've spent a lot of time on it. And we've found that our clients are so much more prepared for these depositions. We save a ton of time because we make sure we track to see if they've been doing it, right? With Mighty Networks, I can see how much of the course they've actually completed. They can't lie to me about it. They could try, but I'm going to know that they're lying.

So, now, the process is that we send this notice out to them and these trainings out to them. The most difficult part for them is they’ve got to download the app, if they want to do it on their phone, but they have the option of doing it on their computer or their phone. And then, they get a series of emails that go out to them that's automated about doing the training, what they should be focusing on for that day. And then, we do just a 30-minute phone call, if they need it. And it usually takes 15 minutes now because we make sure that they've gone through the training. And they are so well prepared for the depositions. And it saves us time on the prep part of it. But it also prepares them better for their deposition and that means more money for the firm. So, it's a pretty incredible process that we have that’s saved us a ton of time and made us more money.

Jim: We should totally be doing a similar thing, you know, for naturalization interviews and our green card interviews. I already have so much content about that. But if we just put that into a place where they had to actually view it and we could keep track of that. I mean, that would really cut down on the prep time because we have to prepare our clients for their interviews and if we could limit that and cut that down.

Let's make a deal. I'm going to push back on you saying, “Our lawsuits are simple, so we don't need to build templates because we're in word and you're in PDF and blah, blah, blah.”

Tyson: That’s fine.

Jim: Let's make a deal or maybe we should have a race. Can I get my interview prep system ready before you can get your word lawsuit system ready?

Tyson: Okay. I mean, we're in the middle of another push so--

Jim: I mean, let's give ourselves some cushion. Today, we're recording this on July 1. Let's say, by August 15, let's see if we can both get it done by August 15?

Tyson: Okay. Deal.

Jim: All right.

Tyson: All right. Loser buys lunch.

Jim: Well, if we both get it done, then we'll just go out to lunch with each other.

Tyson: Deal. On MaxLaw, done. It’d be a strategy session. I like it.

Jim: Yeah. Well, that's all good stuff.

I mean, I think that, you know, you are more inclined, I think, with your background and just the way that you think. I meant, your background in the military, thinking of systems and, you know, optimizing things. And that's not necessarily my strong suit, but I have learned a lot of the value of systems. 

I think, that, you know, people sort of put systems on this pedestal. And some people say, “I'm not good at systems.” But the fun thing is everybody already has a system, you know. If you're not optimizing the way you produce your lawsuits, there's some system out there that you're using. It's just not well documented or well optimized. So, it's really just about looking at the systems that you already have. And that might be a good starting point like, say, “How do we do things now?” Or, as Seth Godin would say, “This is how we do things around here. And then, do we want to make that better? Do we want to make it a little bit easier?” I'm a big believer in incremental improvements.

Tyson: Yeah, I'm curious. I'm going to have to look and see how you do yours because there are certain things that could be tailored to that case. And so, I do want to take a peek at yours. And I'll send you my depo training so you can steal some ideas from that as well because I do think it'd be super beneficial for yours.

I've thought about that. I just assumed that you already had that. To be honest with you, I thought you had had some sort of training. And what's cool about our depo training is we did take a bunch of the videos that I had already created and just copied and pasted them into the new Mighty Networks app.

And then, also, a lot of the other content that we've already written, we were able to just take that content and put it into our stuff. And so, we didn't really have to do much new stuff. A lot of it’s just compiling it into the new training for people.

Yeah, I'll share that with you. You share yours with mine. And let's see if we can meet that August 15 deadline.

Jim: Well, as is often the case, with me at least, I have a lot of the content that we could use for that training but it's all diffuse and it's all out in the atmosphere. It's not well organized, so that's really going to be the biggest part of it. But, yeah, for sure.

Tyson: Yeah. You’ve got people for that. You have people for that.

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Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?

Jim: This is an interesting hack I've been thinking about a lot. You know, we've been playing around with our YouTube videos and one of my greatest advisors, on my YouTube videos, is my 12-year-old daughter. Now, Gary Vee loves to say that when he meets like random teenagers or people under the age of 20, he always asks them, “Hey, can I look at your home screen?” on their phone. Like, he views that as like sacred space. Like he loves to keep track of what the kids these days are looking at.

And with my YouTube videos, Noor’s given me a lot of really good advice. She's like, “No. You don't want to have it be too polished because then people think it's just like sales-y.” I remember one time she said, “Dad, why are you making it all hardcore? These videos are supposed to be fun.”

So, I think even with Jackson and them, it's really interesting to see their perspective on things. I mean, Noor thinks it's hilarious that I have 33,000 YouTube subscribers. And she's always rating my videos and giving me content and her ideas and things. So, if you have teenagers around or under teenagers, tweeners, whatever, talk to them about, you know, how they consume content. Talk to them about what they find authentic and what they find fake, or what they find interesting, or what makes them want to watch.

I mean, you know, the funny thing is people, in the old days, would say, “I want to be a baseball player or I want to be an actress.” And, now, they all say, “I want to be a YouTuber. I want to be a YouTuber.” So, I think there's a lot of information and a lot of good advice that you can get from the younger set. 

Tyson: Totally agree. And it's really kind of funny you say that. Jackson tells me, I don't know know how many times a week, that he wants to be a YouTuber. It's what he wants to do. It's kind of funny. So, I've sort of tried to pull back a little bit on that just because it's-- you know, I don't really want him on YouTube right now but he's--

Jim: [inaudible 00:26:30] to me. I'll give him some tips.

Tyson: He would love it. I'm sure he would love it. No, but I think it's great advice. 

And, you know, it's funny, like as, as time goes by and I told you just earlier, I think last week, where I'm studying to be a pilot, right, like get my private pilot's license. And I'm learning about my learning. I'm actually going through two courses. One’s basically all reading. And the other one is all videos. And I way more prefer the one that’s all videos. And it covers all the same content, but I can't stand reading all that. It's just so boring. But, when this guy's actually giving it to me, in video, it's so much easier to go through. So, it's good. It is good understanding how people learn. I think it's a good idea, Jimmy.

So, my tip of the week is, you know, those little tabs like whenever you open in Safari on your phone or you use Chrome on your phone. Like, do you see this? You know, you kind of go through those? Right? And for those of you listening, I was holding my phone up. Have you ever wanted to reorder those? Have you ever like, “Oh, I want this one on the front.” All right. So, I figured this out the other day. If you press and hold on it, you can actually move the tabs to where you want ‘em. See that? Ain’the that pretty cool? So, you can actually move those tabs inside of Safari or Chrome, whichever one you want. So, that's my tip.

This is more of a Mac tip, an Apple tip. But, on your iPhone. If you want to move those tabs around, whenever you're browsing, you can do that just by pressing and holding and you can move ‘em. And I discovered that the other day.

That's funny. Amy's looking at me and now she’s just shaking her head like, “Yeah, duh.” But I did not realize that. So, I know there are people listening to this that didn't realize that either. So, that is my tip of the week.

Jim: We sound like a couple old fogies. 

Tyson: Yeah, we do.

Jim: I'm learning about tabs on Safari. And I'm learning how to treat my YouTube videos from the kids. 

Tyson: Yeah, pretty much. But, you know, hey, it's an important lesson, you know. Like don't get stuck in your way. 

Jim: Hi, this is Jim Hacking, immigration lawyer, coming to you live from the old folks’ home.

Tyson: Pretty much, yeah. All right, man. Well, it’s been fun.

Jim: Good stuff.

Tyson: I'll talk to you later.

Jim: Yep. Later.

Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

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