Should Your Law Firm Run Without You? 501

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Is it realistic for a law firm owner to strive for a law firm that runs without them? Jim and Tyson have changed their thinking around this topic of a law firm owner working towards the goal of being only in the owners box. 

Is this possible? It’s an interesting idea, however, we don’t think it’s really possible for a law firm owner to be in the owners box only and run a highly successful firm that you can scale. You probably could get most of the way there, but the nature of what we do requires that we be deeply integrated into the firm. 

There are some exceptions but not many in today’s world, and we don’t think it’s realistic to expect that you are going to be in the owners box and be able to just let the firm run itself. This and more is what Tyson and Jim discuss in today’s episode. 

Listen in!

Episode Highlights:

4:23 There are too many moving parts for you to be ONLY in the owners box 

5:56 When you are so disconnected from what you are running #yikes!

10:16 Your most valuable time is …

15:00 Looking for a reset button, and coming back with a fresh set of eye

Tysons Tip: Read The Referral Engine: Teaching Your Business to Market Itself by John Jantsch 

🎥 Watch the full video on YouTube.

Resources:

Transcript: Should Your Law Firm Run Without You?

Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.

Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.

Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson nutrix. What’s up, Jimmy?

Jim Hacking
How are you? My brother?

Tyson Mutrux
Good. Are we talking in like soothing voices today? We can do soothing voices, we could, you know, I’m doing well, how are you?

Jim Hacking
I’m doing great. I’m doing great. I had a nice day yesterday, it was a little bit hectic. But I got my massage and got my time in with my therapist. And she and I both brought up the idea that maybe our time together is coming to an end. So that was it’s sort of threw me for a loop. But we were both dancing around it. It’s sort of a strange thing. So I’m playing in the possibilities. Is this feel like you’re getting broken up with kinda? No, I wouldn’t say that so much. I feel more like getting dropped off at college.

Tyson Mutrux
So Jason, and I, because I’ve worked with Jason before, right, Jason Selke. And then just like, the way it works, is he wants to train you to be able to just not need him anymore. And so I’ve gone through his like, I’ll call it a program once and then I’m we got two months left. And so like, I don’t know what’s like, I know what I did before. But like I don’t I kind of want to keep working with them. But it’s like, I am sort of coming to that end. So it’s you and I are both coming to the end of I think not relationships, but you’re coming to the end of the coaching that you’re getting and that I’m getting. So it’s interesting, are both sort of coming upon that. So how long have you seen her? And then how long do you plan on seeing her going forward?

Jim Hacking
Oh, I think we’re going to wind it down relatively quickly. We’ve been together and we’ve done a lot of great work. No regrets at all since? Well, I was with her when I told her money that I was flat broke. So that was 2012. So it’s been 11 years. 12 years.

Tyson Mutrux
Wow. Wow, that is interesting. That’s awesome. Congratulation. I think they I think that I think congratulations are in order. That’s good. Yeah, let’s let’s Okay, well, let’s talk about the topic of

Jim Hacking
the week, we’re talking about winding things down or about moving on. And my question for you today, my brother is this. Is it realistic, in 2023, for a law firm owner, to strive for believe that they can have a law firm that runs without them, I’ve changed my thinking a little bit on it. And I’m still processing my thinking. So I thought it were a better place to talk it through them with you.

Tyson Mutrux
Alright, so we’ve had a person on the podcast, I’m not gonna mention who the person is, but I really liked the person. But when the person said that they are I think that they said that they’re in the owners box. And it kind of struck me as like, Ha, maybe this is possible. Like maybe that’s an interesting idea. Because you do see business owners in general, they own a business, but they’re not in the business. But then you have people like Elon Musk, who owns several but there’s like also like deeply intertwined with those businesses. I don’t however, think it’s really possible for a law firm owner to be in the owners box. I don’t not running a highly successful firm that you can scale. I don’t think so. I think you can get it most of the way with there. But I do think that the nature of what we do requires that we be deeply integrated into the firm. Now, that being said, I think there’s some exceptions. There are some exceptions, but you look at like, okay, Brian cave, I’ll be that’s the name of the firm anymore. But you know, like you said this before, like Mr. Bryan and Mr. Cave are no longer around, I don’t think and so they’re not running the firm. So I do think you can build something that can last however, like those guys are dead, I think I think they’re dead. But there is a Mr. Cave or Mr. Bryan, that is, it’s not their name, but they are still deeply intertwined to the business with the business right now. I don’t think so. I do not think so. Not in today’s world, we everyone has become a creator. That’s just the nature of the world that we live in. Everyone is now a creator, and you have to be to grow your firm. If it’s possible. It’s really hard as what I’m saying, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that you are going to be in the owners box and be able to just let the firm run itself.

Jim Hacking
We spend a lot of time on this show sort of painting that as a noble goal. And that is an achievable goal. And so part of this is a bit of a mia culpa on my part, I don’t believe that that’s true anymore. I don’t think that a lot from owner can sit only in the owners box, there are too many moving parts. They’re going to lose your energy, your guidance, your experience, if you pull back to owner only so now I think and I think it’s sort of goes along with my general ideas about retirement, which is I don’t really want to retire. I just want to get to do the things that I want to do in the front. I play around where I want to play around, not do any of the things that I don’t want to do, make sure they’re being done well make sure they’re known by people who are good at that. But have a law firm that suits the life, I want the balance, I want the connections that I want, and not have to have all the things that I don’t want. So that I think is a big little shift. For me,

Tyson Mutrux
I am gonna pull back a little bit. But we said, we’ve sold the idea that you should be doing only the things that you’re the best at, I do think we’ve talked about that, I don’t think that we’ve really been the ones that have pushed, hey, you can only be in the owners box, like that’s a possibility. We’ve talked about it a little bit, I guess, as a possibility. But it is a very, very slim possibility that you can do that, I just don’t really think that you can actually have that as an expectation, because of what you said, if you pull back too far. Let me say what I’m back the next day without trying to reveal who I’m talking about. There is a person I know, that person runs a firm and that person for years talked about trying cases, and yada yada yada. But that person to this point is now had been two decades has not tried a case in two decades, talked about it a lot, and is so removed from reality, when it comes to how to resolve these cases and try cases that that person should no longer be running that firm. That is my belief, because that person is no longer like they’re not in the trenches, and you don’t have to be in the trenches, but they’re so disconnected from the trenches that they don’t really know how a modern firm operates. And um, that’s as far as I’ll go with who the who I’m talking about, cuz I don’t wanna reveal what I’m talking about. And I think that that’s kind of what you’re touching on is like, you have to understand, like how the laws work as a law firm owner like, because, for example, like a lot of our strategy as a law firm, right, is dictated around bad faith strategies. Okay, that’s what a lot of it the way we operate as a firm is greatly dictated around that a lot of our marketing strategy has to do with bad faith strategies, I have to understand bad faith strategies, or someone in my firm has to deeply understand it. Otherwise, it doesn’t work. The process doesn’t work. I’m assuming the same thing with you. You came up with a novel idea. I think it was novel at the time, we’re just gonna start suing the government to move these cases along. And I think a lot of people have adopted that same philosophy. You did that because you understand immigration law. If you’re in the owners box, you’re at some point because laws changed so much, especially for me with tort reform laws changed so much over time, that if you’re just in the 100 bucks, you’re going to be so disconnected that your strategies are no longer going to work.

Jim Hacking
I do think you’re right that we haven’t been out like selling it like some, you know, pie in the sky thing. But I will say, Tyson, that for me, it was a true north there was something that I was striving for something I was aiming for something that I thought was attainable. And now I’m not so sure. Now I’m not so sure a is it possible B isn’t what I want, right? So there’s sort of both of those things. Like, I’m really having fun right now spending 15 minutes a day, getting my leads team all pumped up and figuring out issues. And it’s again, it’s my little laboratory within the firm, right? And so I’m actually having fun. And I was talking to one of my coaches about this, Marty, about this idea that, you know, I’m back in Leeds and Oh, isn’t that bad. And oh, you know, it’s really good if I’m not only this really good if things can run on their own. And Marty just gently invited me to say, well, maybe you’re right where you’re supposed to be, maybe this is the best use of your 15 minutes a day, maybe this is, you know, you’re optimizing a department of almost 10 people, by spending 15 minutes a day, that’s a pretty good trade off. And it’s pretty good leverage where you might not be able to get all the way out now of that department. And maybe you can figure out strategies to keep things going the way you want them to go with you only being there 15 minutes a week, right. So those are all like noble things. But I really got into this whole thing of polishing the silver is bad going back and doing the things that I did before I should be past this, I should have beaten this, this should be better, and a whole lot of good stuff. And you know, I’m always yelling at people for talking about what they should be doing and shouldn’t be doing. And Marty just gave me a much better gentler place to be which is, you know, lead seem needy right now. It’s sort of like one of your kids need you now more than the other ones. And so he’s having trouble at school, you need to spend a little more time with Hudson and Emma’s getting ready to go get ready for this and was getting ready to go to her senior prom and she’s nervous about it and you got to get ready for that. So you know, you just go where you’re supposed to be and be happy where you’re at and things will work themselves out.

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Tyson Mutrux
by your tone. Alright, so I’m going to ask you a couple questions. But before I do that, I don’t think what you’re talking about is polishing the silver I consider polishing the silver like, you know, taking out the trash, things like that. I was asking John the other day we had the hotseat yesterday or two days ago with John and I had asked him about his most valuable time, but the things he does, it’s most valuable the things that he does, it’s least valuable. And I would say that the least valuable activities are the polishing silver, what you’re doing with Lee’s team, I think that is it’s near, if not at the top of the most valuable activities, right? Because that’s where the business is. That’s where the money is coming in. So I wouldn’t consider that polishing the silver. I just think that that’s understanding your business and really doing the most valuable stuff. But here’s what I’m gonna ask you. Why did you start your law firm?

Jim Hacking
Well, before I do get to that, I do want to say that whenever I hear you say, before I do that, I’m like, Oh, he’s getting ready to talk about the guilt and about treating as a five star review. So you said it in the middle of the show, and I, I did a little bit of a start. Oh, before I do. Okay, so I have to get a

Tyson Mutrux
timeout real quick. I’m gonna let you think about this wasted for let’s do I’ve never done this before. Before you do that before you talk about it. If you don’t mind. While you’re listening to this episode, give us a five star review help help spread that love. Okay, help spread the love. All right, Jimmy, by the start tougher.

Jim Hacking
I think they call it a mid roll ad. Is that what that was? I think that was a mid roll.

Tyson Mutrux
So I told I think we should do these things called speed bumps, right? We call them speed bumps. They’re quick, three second hands like boom, in the middle of an episode, boom, boom, you say it really quick as a speed bump. And as the episode keeps going, I think it’s a great strategy, we should just start start putting in speed bumps.

Jim Hacking
I haven’t heard that phrase before. But Tim Ferriss does that there’s that little noise right before he goes to the ad and a little noise, it sounds almost like a speed bump or something electronic real quick to just sort of reset and let you know what the ad was. So that was great. So why did I start my law firm? I started my law firm, because I wanted to help people ease their suffering and to make some money.

Tyson Mutrux
Okay. And I want to invite other people to answer that question. Because here’s the second question. Is that why you still running your law firm?

Jim Hacking
Oh, yeah, on steroids. Like I’m helping lots of people. I’m making big impacts. I’m helping people bring their family members here, keep their family members here, get on the path to citizenship, help employers get the staffing and the team members that they need. It’s all very, very fulfilling, and right now employing 55 people. So we’re helping people, not only our clients, but the people that work with us. And so Oh, yeah, like 10x.

Tyson Mutrux
Here’s why I asked if the answer that question was No, at the second part of it, that I would say you need to adjust what you’re doing. But why would you want to be in the owners box? If that’s why you started your firm. That’s why you’re still doing it. And I’m not saying I’m saying that rhetorically. I’m not asking that question. But why don’t why people why they think that they need to be in that owners box. And if you’re enjoying what you’re doing, like you’re doing what you wanted to do at the beginning, you’re still doing it. Why would you want to change that? Like your why it would be so boring. I do think that like that would be so boring. Yeah, you’re okay, you’re in the owners box. Now, what are you gonna do? Well, you can do what you live, okay? If that’s if let’s say that you say, Well, okay, I’m if I’m in the owners box, then what I would do is I’d go out and start a not for profit charity, where whatever. Okay, what why aren’t you doing that now? Like, why isn’t that something you’re doing now? Like, don’t wait till that point, like start doing those things now? And why are you waiting on it? Maybe that’s your career path, not what you’re doing now. And that’s why I asked I think people should answer those questions like they need to figure that out. Because then you’re talking about regrets and 20 years. That’s what you’re talking about. If you don’t answer those questions. Now.

Jim Hacking
I think your points are well taken. I think that a lot of people aren’t deliberate enough and aren’t thinking enough about why they’re doing what they’re doing. I think it’s always good to reconnect and recalibrate. I think that you’re right. We don’t sell this pie in the sky idea that you’re going to be able to have a self managing firm. But I mean, you know, I went to Strategic Coach Dan Sullivan has a book called The self managing company, I transpose that into thinking we could have a self managing law firm, it’s actually something that’s been on our PTO for a while or something that I wanted. And I know there are a lot of people in the sort of lawyer coaching space, people who’ve never run a law firm people who’ve, you know, have law firms that make $120,000 a year holding themselves out as experts who paint this picture of sitting on a beach and having your law firm run itself and attend and I would say that I’ve gotten drawn into that. And you know me, I get so excited about things like that, that Oh, wouldn’t that be great? I’ve been spending a lot of time thinking about this article I read a long time ago. So in the old days, there was a thing called ESPN, the magazine ESPN, the magazine, I don’t think is around anymore. It killed Sports Illustrated, it seems. Yeah. So there was an article and I’m gonna find it but I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately. And the premise of the article was that the best NFL coaches statistically They were ones who are coaching for the second time, the second time. So I think right now, I’m coaching the Leeds team for a second time. And I’m coaching the Leeds team that I have now versus the lead seam that I had eight years ago. And so it’s a totally different beast, a totally different thing. And I think that having gone through the experience, and learning the things that you learned, you just talked about this on an earlier podcast that we were just recording. And that was, I’ll let you tell the story. But coming back a second time with fresh eyes. And the part I really like the fresh canvas, where you can say, I want a lot more of that than I had before. And I don’t want a lot of that that I had before. Yeah, so

Tyson Mutrux
we were just interviewed by care of a vol. That’s VA VHL. And I was talking about whenever my partnership split up, and I’ve had that reset button, and I had that fresh canvas, and you’re so right. And that fully explains why the second time head coach, it works out so well because they can look back and say, okay, and a head coach is a perfect example. Because they’re going to a brand new team, they can bring the people that they want, they can just start with a fresh, like clean slate other than the players, right. That’s the it’s a little murkier, but for me, especially I had a fully I could use whatever software I wanted, I could hire whatever employees I wanted. It was a really nice, fresh start for me. And I was able to just reset everything and start from scratch. And I think that that’s true. I had never thought about it from that perspective. Jim, where you got your like a second time head coach? And let me ask you this, because I don’t know if it’s possible. But maybe it is, let’s say you’re a law firm owner, you’re five years in, and you’re just not happy with the way things are going? Is it reasonable to tell a law firm owner, hit the reset button? Get rid of everybody and start from scratch? Is that Is that reasonable?

Jim Hacking
Well, they have a great thing in the 12 steps. And that is take what you like and leave the rest. So I wouldn’t necessarily just fire everybody and then create a new blank canvas. But you can certainly get out a big piece of white paper and draw what it is that you want and start working towards that. And then looking at what you have and saying, comparing it to what you have now and where you want to get to are these the pieces that you need to get where you want to go. And you know, I was thinking about that article. And you know, Tony La Russa coached the Oakland A’s and he came to St. Louis, Dick for a meal lost the Super Bowl with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1980. And then he came to St. Louis. And I remember Dixie surrounded himself with like, really high caliber coaches. And so I think he definitely had a vision of what he wanted that second time around. So I think it’s so funny because I poo pooed vision for so long. But I think that having that vision of the law firm that you want, whether it’s a second go at it, or whether it’s, you know, transmogrifying while you’re in the middle of the process, I think it’s a little bit harder. But I think it’s certainly doable.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, I was looking at this quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald, I think I’ve mentioned it before, but the quote, ends with it’s a longer quote. But the part that it ends with, I hope you live a life you’re proud of. And if you’re not, I hope you have the courage to start over again. And I really liked that quote. So I’m gonna read it again, I hope you live a life you’re proud of. And if you’re not, I hope you have the courage to start over again, you can take that principle when it comes to law firm owners to where you could, even if you can’t do a full reset, you can adjust things, and you can fix what you got, if that means cleaning house. But I hope people have the courage to start over again, if that’s where they are.

Jim Hacking
While I was giggling when we were being interviewed because we both had partnerships that didn’t go the way we wanted. And we both did get a second chance at sort of starting on our own again. And I think that that has really helped us I mean, it’s such a great place to play in with your mind because it frees you of the constructs of what you currently have. And so maybe to your question, you can’t necessarily just fire everybody and start all over. But maybe you can have a physical break a temporal break a, you know, like a geographic break for a while just to let you settle because so much of what we do is that snow globe all shook up. But if you sit and let the snow globe sit down and the snow drifts, then you can see much more clearly. And I think that’s really what the white canvas offers is that opportunity for clarity that when you’re worried about getting a set of interrogatory is out the door or collecting that last $2,500 from a recalcitrant client that when you’re all caught up in that stuff, the snowglobe is swirling, and you can’t really focus on the stuff that’s important to you.

Tyson Mutrux
I love the idea of the snow globe. That’s a really good on on the steel that we’re proud of. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well,

Jim Hacking
this was a good episode. I enjoyed the talk. And I think that is something that we’ll continue to talk about and play with as law firm owners and as maximum lawyers.

Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. And if anyone has, if there’s truly in the owners box, and they want to come on I’d love to talk to you, because I think you are a unicorn, I’d love to talk to you about it. Alright, let’s wrap things up. And again, before I do, will you please give us a five star review, if you don’t mind, it helps us spread the love to other law firm owners and really get it out to people because Apple, and wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps push us up in the rankings. So please do that. And if you want a more high level conversation, you can join us in the guild go to max law guild.com. You don’t have to start there. You can always go to the big Facebook group, it’s free to join. And there’s a lot of great people sharing, we got over 6000 members in the group. So if you’re looking for a answer to a question, join us there the question and the answer might be in there. Jimmy, what’s your pick of the week?

Jim Hacking
My hack of the week is that article from ESPN The Magazine, I will find it in time for our show notes. And I will share it whether we find it online or whether to ask I’m gonna go to the library and look it up on microfiche. We will do it but I will get that article for everyone. And that’ll be my hack of the week.

Tyson Mutrux
That’s really good one Jim. I like that. Hopefully you can share that. I always liked ESPN the magazine because like it was different. The shape, it was different than most magazines. It was like wider and shorter. But like the pictures and the imagery was fantastic. It’s really good magazine sucks. It’s not around anymore. I don’t think it is around anymore. But my book is we’re focusing on referrals this quarter. And we’re sort of as a, we’re creating a referral machine as what we’re doing inside the firm. And we’re we’re doing that by showing clients that referrals are an important thing. And employees are the we’re all talking about. It’s like this thing. It’s a hubbub. And so referrals is the focus. And the book I’m reading right now is the Referral Engine. I’m not through it. But it’s there’s a lot of great tools and resources inside of it’s by John Jantsch, which we had John on the podcast, if I remember correctly,

Jim Hacking
we did about duct tape marketing. We should have him on about that. I have it right over there. Yeah, I

Tyson Mutrux
agree. Good. If you’ve not read duct tape marketing, that’s like one of like the the tabs on your bookshelf, you should have that one if you’re new to marketing, but John Jantsch. He’s great. He’s a really good writer, but he’s got a great book, the Referral Engine, and it’s all about referrals. And so if referrals are something that you want to focus on, it’s one element of our business, and it’s something that we’re wanting to focus more on. And so it is the Referral Engine teaching your business to market itself. That’s really good. All right, Jimmy, great talking to you. Good topic. Had a lot of fun.

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