In this episode, Jim and Tyson interview Ryan McKeen, a big supporter of the show and a very successful lawyer out of Connecticut. In the past, Ryan and a partner opened their own firm but it didn’t last long. Ryan learnt from this experience and he actually runs a very successful law firm. They will go over his mistakes in the past and his success in the present paying special attention to Ryan’s vision, technology and efficiency standards.
The firm: http://cttrialfirm.com/
The biggest problems of the firm that didn’t work out:
1. Under capitalization: “When the money becomes really tight it can create a high level of stress”
2. No real defined purpose. No real defined reason for existing: “That only gets you so far”
Efficiency:
“In order to exist we need to be super efficient. And so there has been a perpetual focus over the years on adapting technology that we believed was best even if it meant it was more expensive at that time. A side from the team we have assembled now, that is the number one driver of our growth. Without our systems and our technology we would be run over by our caseload.”
The best piece of advice:
Really focus on the vision component of your firm.
“What exactly does this look like now, what is it going to look like a quarter from now, a year from now, etc. Once you can set those goals; focus on your vision, your marketing falls into place, your team falls into place, and you have alignment, and you are all rowing in the same direction.”
Ryan’s best hiring advice:
“Having somebody who is culturally inclined to do the work and has the technical skills necessary, that’s where you gonna get your home runs.”
Ryan’s blog:
https://aconnecticutlawblog.com/
Ryan’s biggest struggle:
Himself. He sometimes hyper focuses on his business in a way his not present with his family sometimes… He has gained almost 50 pounds, his diet has suffered, his sleep has suffered. He should set up boundaries and focus on his health and family.
Hacking’s hack:
1. Use software to print checks!
2. Take the Kolbe Index. http://www.kolbe.com/. Which is an assessment of your cognitive functions and how you make decisions and sort of where your strengths are. Use it to improve your staff.
Ryan’s tip:
Drink water! Keep healthy!
Tyson’s tip:
A book. Traction: How Any Startup Can Achieve Explosive Customer Growth, by Gabriel Weinberg.
https://www.amazon.com/Traction-Startup-Achieve-Explosive-Customer-ebook/dp/B00ZE96ZWY
//
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Transcripts: Going Solo & Starting Over With The Right Vision
Ryan
Really focus on the vision component of your firm. And it’s like that is a really hard thing to nail down. Like, what exactly does this look like now? What is it going to look like a quarter from now a year from now, five years, 10 years down the road. And sort of once you can set those goals, focus on your vision, your marketing falls into place, your team falls into place, and you have alignment and you’re all rowing in the same direction. And when those things happen, it’s amazing.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum liar, podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
And I’m Tyson mutex. What’s up, Jimmy?
Jim Hacking
How are you Jason? We have some little friends in the background today.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, I am at home with the kiddos. And it’s just me. So you all are gonna enjoy my kiddos in the background. I’ll keep it on mute as much as I can. But I can’t promise anything.
Jim Hacking
We’re very excited to have a longtime supporter of the podcast Ryan McKean. On today’s show, Ryan’s a very successful lawyer out of Connecticut. He’s a big supporter of maximum lawyer. And we’re very excited to have you here. Ryan, thanks for joining us.
Ryan
Thanks for having me, Jim.
Tyson Mutrux
So Ryan, tell us a little bit about your firm. I know more about your firm than probably most, but tell people about your firm and how you got started in your story.
Ryan
Sure, I’ll start with the beginning. I was an associate at a general practice firm, I practice for six and a half years. And I became I think what Seth Godin would describe as a heretic. And I said, You know what, we can do things that are much different, and improve the way we deliver legal services to our clients, and also improve our lives. Because I mean, the firm I was at was very traditional. I mean, you know, dressed down was like, You didn’t wear a tie when you came into the office on Saturday, but you were you were still in a shirt and jacket. So I read the Steve Jobs biography, and I just became inspired and sort of infatuated with the idea of building a real modern legal practice. And from there, I did, I think maybe what a lot of folks do, and literally, I was on vacation, and I had a few gin and tonics in me, and I messaged a friend and Facebook Messenger, and I said, Hey, you want to start a law firm. And that probably was maybe the most random message that that person had probably ever received, I’d hope. And so we started talking from there. And I went out. And we found that a firm, and I spent six months planning the firm before I left my job and launched. And that didn’t work out man that didn’t work out very, very quickly. You know, we had no real vision for what we were going to be except, hey, we’re going to be this great law firm. And people will hire us because they like us. And within probably six months after that, we weren’t talking. Within a year after that we weren’t partners at all. And I was back on my own, not back on my own. It was on my own as a true solo starting over. So I started as a solo doing basically what I always did, I had an eye on trying to do personal injury work, but I needed to pay bills. So I was doing housing work, probate work, family work, criminal work, you know, pay the bills work really is what what it was, well, working on personal injury. And I did that and I had some success at it. And ultimately, a friend, or somebody who would read my blog, guy by the name of Andrew said, you know, he said, Hey, want to have lunch? And I said, Yeah, so he and I started talking. And he ended up becoming a tenant of mine, subleasing some space, we became off counsel. And we said, you know, we kept talking. And three years ago, we switched into being Connecticut trial firm, but we were sort of siloed each doing our own individual practices, still focusing on personal injury. And then last January, we really merged our practices into one firm, focusing exclusively on personal injury. And right now we’ve got my wife, Allison, who is an attorney, she works for me, she does finance and she does some content creation. I sort of think of her as almost an office manager. We have Sarah, our litigation, paralegal. We have Jackie who does our intakes, and we just hired Maria to do prelit position. And my longtime paralegal Ruth who has been with me since I started practicing law 13 years ago, she’s with us and she works part time picking up the pieces and that’s where we are.
Jim Hacking
Right now. I’d like to talk a little bit about the law firm that didn’t work. And obviously you can, you can share or hold back Whatever you like. And the questions are, what do you think was the biggest problem with the firm? How did you realize that? And what did you learn from that?
Ryan
I think the biggest problems were twofold, one of which was under capitalization. We started our firm, I started the firm, that my partner, and I think we each made $2,500 contributions. And at the time, that seemed like a lot of money. But when you’re trying to run a practice, that goes really fast. And you know, when the money becomes really tight, it creates a insurmountable, I think amount of or can create an insurmountable amount of stress. I mean, I remember one day, we had a small credit card, I think of $5,000. That was maxed out hope. We had $76, I think in our operating funds, and my debit card declined at a parking meter, as I was trying to drive to another lawyer’s office to pick up a personal injury settlement check, because we needed to deposit it, as opposed to just waiting for it to come in the mail. So that’s, that’s thing number one. And I think thing number two is we had no real defined purpose, we had no real defined reason for existing other than, like, hey, let’s start this cool law firm. And that only gets you so far. And we succeeded. We succeeded in a lot of ways. And I think we’ve both through that experience, have laid groundwork for successful practices in different arenas. But yeah, lack of vision and lack of money.
Jim Hacking
Can I just jump in real quick Tyson and say something about that? I read an article a couple years ago, in ESPN, the magazine, and they did a survey to figure out who had been the most successful NFL coaches. And it was the coaches who had coached one time before. So I think that idea of starting a second time, and you know, remembering everything that you learned, I think that’s, that’s really important,
Ryan
massively. I’m grateful
Tyson Mutrux
for the experience. And I think under-capitalisation is one of those things where people think I’ll just put hang up my shingle, and I don’t need any money, I can do it. And in some practice areas, I sort of think that that’s okay. But when you get into Pei, especially if you’re going to do it the right way, Ryan, you’re 100%, right, you got to have the money to do it, you got to have at least access to the money even if you don’t have the money, because you’ve spent a lot of money on PI cases. So but I want you to talk about how you bolster your firm with technology, because you do a really good job with technology, bolstering your firm’s. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I
Ryan
mean, that’s been one of the visions, you know, from the very beginning, I mean, hey, like, you know, the idea for the firm comes from reading the Steve Jobs book. And it’s like, what we didn’t have at the time at all was staff or money for staff. And when you’re starting out with, you know, $2,500, or $5,000, in a capital account, man, that goes quick. So it was the notion that we need to be, in order to exist, we need to be super efficient. And so there’s been a perpetual focus, over the years on adopting technology that we believed was best in class, even if it meant it was more expensive at the time, things that we could grow into, and things that we can use. And really, you know, aside from the team we have assembled now, I mean, that is the number one driver of our growth without our systems in our in our technology, we would be I think completely run over at this point by by our caseload.
Jim Hacking
I read the Steve Jobs book, and I found it to be fascinating as well, what were your big takeaways from it? My big one was that Steve Jobs wasn’t a very nice person, but also that he really believed in elegance and design and simplicity. And so what did you take away from Isaacson’s biography of him?
Ryan
I took away the same things I think you did. We talk a lot about design of a law firm, we talk a lot about essential things and trying to pare down what we do. So it’s simple and usable and accessible to our teammates in our in our clients. And I also think that one of the things I think I took away from it was to embrace sort of being a pirate. And that’s sort of how we see ourselves like we we are not the Navy and enjoy that. That’s the spirit that’s in it’s in our DNA.
Tyson Mutrux
So my guess Ryan, is that you started your initial firm, you got a bunch of advice you started, you’re not your next firm after the first one didn’t go. So well. You got a bunch of advice. What would you say is the best piece of advice you’ve gotten?
Ryan
The best piece of advice, I think, that I’ve got in general, is to really focus on the vision component of your firm. And it’s like that is a really hard thing to nail down. Like, what exactly does this look like now? What is it going to look like a quarter from now a year from now five years, 10 years down the road? And sort of once you can set those goals for Based on your vision, your marketing falls into place, your team falls into place, and you have alignment and you’re all rowing in the same direction. And when those things happen, which is what’s happening right now, on our team, it’s amazing. And I think that otherwise, when you don’t have that really crystal clear vision as to where you’re going, what you’re doing, you waste an immense amount of energy on things that don’t matter, or don’t get you ahead,
Jim Hacking
right and talk a little bit about that talk a little bit about trying to get your technology set up in a way that’s going to allow you to, as you said, grow into it. I think that’s really important. I was really glad I got it on Infusionsoft early on, because having to switch systems can be tough. And so talk about some of the technological things that you’ve done, to sort of track where you think your firm’s gonna go.
Ryan
What we did is a little over a year ago, after vetting a bunch of systems, we landed on file vine, and we were really impressed with what they were doing. And in frankly, I think at the time, it was sort of taking a sledgehammer, probably to a nail, but it was like, no, no, no, this is software that we can use, that we can we can implement systems, it does everything that we want to do, and really sort of reflects our values as a firm. And it’s taken probably a year and we’re constantly tweaking it, to improve it. But realizing like we are exclusively an injury firm, I gave up a real estate practice, I’ve given a family work, I’ve given up all sorts of different other kinds of work and focusing on exactly those systems. So that’s been huge for us. The other things that have been huge for us is we basically said all our legal stuff has to exist in file, Vine, everything related to cases has to exist in file vine, we use Slack for internal communication system, which the adaptation to that and the team using that is fantastic. And we also we created a private Wikipedia page, using software that integrates with Slack called tetra, that really allows us to document every single thing that we do, Jim and we try to put in like, Okay, here’s how you make coffee. Here’s, here’s our contact for, you know, file, Vine tech, here’s the Marshall we use when we file a case in New London, all the sort of small pieces that exists there. So what we’re trying to do on a daily basis is get knowledge out of our head on everything we do.
Tyson Mutrux
Ryan, we have a question from Ryan Locke. He says, ask Ryan about his best hiring advice. He is going to hire a paralegal next month to replace his current one who is going to grad schools, what’s your best hiring advice?
Ryan
My best hiring advice is to I think it’s you hired Sara, our paralegal in January, and she’s she’s a rock star. I mean, she messaged me, she said, I had trouble sleeping last night. And she said, I was so I went in, and I was banging out our prelit systems and file vine and Tetra and at you know, between 10 and one in the morning, and I’m like, Wow, that’s awesome. But my first conversation with Sarah was, you know, it was literally about the tech we use about about the way in which we use it, and about our notion that we are doing, we’re doing two things at once, right, we’re always working a case, but we’re also refining our systems and getting her to, she loved that idea. And she’s really competent at what she does. And so having somebody who is culturally inclined to do it and has the technical skills necessary. That’s where you’re gonna get your home runs. And, you know, we hired an intake specialist who had never worked at a law firm, did most recently worked as a baker in Whole Foods and Starbucks and whatnot. But she had a tremendous amount of empathy. She’s who you want answering your phones and clients love her. And we knew we could work with her into our systems, even though she didn’t have legal experience. And she’s also been a home run. Right?
Tyson Mutrux
It’s fine. These employees.
Ryan
We found Jackie our receptionist on Indeed, we posted an ad there. And Sarah, our paralegal came from a referral from another attorney.
Jim Hacking
Brian, where do your best cases come from and talk to us a little bit too about your blog about your Connecticut law blog.
Ryan
My best case is come from really two sources equally, one of which is attorney referrals. We welcome injury referrals. We we have systems in place, I think that deliver for our referral sources. That’s number one. Number two at this point is really online. It’s a combination of avo Google, my business, online reviews, those kinds of things also convert for us. I’m sorry, Jim, your second question
Jim Hacking
was about your blog. Tell us about your blog.
Ryan
Yeah, I started my I started blogging in two 1007 Basically because my firm website I said sucked, like this is this is terrible. And so I started writing and my vision at the time for the blog was, you’re sort of a young lawyer, somebody’s like, Well, why don’t you write an article for like the what? Connecticut law Tribune or something? And I was like, oh, man, what? Write an article for them? Why don’t I try to be the Connecticut law Tribune. And so I launched my blog, and I would write about anything and everything legal related. And that allowed me to stumble into things. And I encourage, I encourage this. I know we talk about focus and vision. But sometimes real magic happens when you’re just curious. And in 2010, I just wrote a post about what the qualifications were to be Attorney General’s election season. And then I wrote a follow up post, because I realized that the main candidate for the office did not meet the legal qualifications. And so I wrote this post. And I came in one morning, my paralegal said, well, Ruth says to me, what did you do? And I mean, what do you mean, what I did, she’s like NBC, Fox, you know, Boston Globe, all these people are in your inbox, looking to talk to you as an old boy. And so what happened is, it ended up in the Connecticut Supreme Court case, the Supreme Court actually sided with my the arguments that I proposed on my legal blog. And that sort of got me awareness, or publicity or whatever, that is almost impossible to buy. And since then, I’ve changed up the blog. Now I write exclusively on personal injury, and my vision is to make it you know, an absolute free resource for that.
Tyson Mutrux
So Brian, I’m gonna freak some people out artificial intelligence is coming, we can talk about a little bit about your thoughts on that. I can’t wait.
Ryan
You know, I think that right now, the key is to, at least internally getting your data into systems that will ultimately allow you to support artificial intelligence, because someday file via is not going to be a series of tabs and things it’s going to be, you know, what do I have to do today? Oh, you’ve got, you know, court coming up on this, you’ve got this, you know, hey, we need can you generate a letter of representation on the Smith case, and off, it’s going to go, or the client contacts you and says, you know, hey, what’s an update on my case and file vinyl spit out to the client, or some software, you know, whatever, who knows what will exist in 10 years, saying, you know, look, you’ve got court coming up in two weeks, or, you know, we’re waiting on medical records from Dr. so and so. So I think that there’s going to be, you know, fantastic efficiencies on the operational side. But I think it’s going to require the people who are going to be able to, I think profit from this are ones who are going to who are focusing right now on their systems, their processes. And in their data, there’s tremendous value in the data. And I think with while marketing the same thing, it’s like, you know, people are gonna sit there, and they’re gonna say, hey, I need a immigration lawyer in St. Louis. And, you know, Alexa is gonna say, Well, hey, Jim, hacking is your guy. So you need to be building content for that. And there are a ton of resources that are out there that are beyond me, for people to start laying the groundwork for that. But I think right now, in terms of all of it, like, yeah, audio visual, that’s all beachfront property right now. That’s pretty available on the cheap. That won’t be, you know, three, five years.
Jim Hacking
Ryan, do you think going in the future that firms will remain small that will continue to have small firms, I think we’re more nimble. I think we’re more agile and more able to work on the fly. I think some of the bigger firms get sort of stodgy and stuck in their ways. And I think it’s a real opportunity for a small firm. And so
Ryan
I think so as well, I think for the foreseeable future. That’s the way I think, perhaps, sort of like long term trends, and who knows what we’re talking about, Jim, 20 years, 15 years, I think you will see, like national players, I think you’ll or you’re gonna see, you know, like a CVS for law firms or things like that, that come into this space, which are sort of, it’s sort of almost what’s happened in the medical profession, you know, regional, national, or whatnot. But now, I think, yeah, it’s a great time to be a small firm, and it’s going to be for, I don’t know, as far as I can see, pretty much
Tyson Mutrux
fun. I don’t know where I stand on this. I, I’ve been thinking about this for quite a long time, and I don’t and there are people like Seth Godin to say, we’re going to remain small and go start to head down that route where you as the attorney, you’re going to be the guy or woman or there are other people were, which are mostly Pio attorneys that I talked to that say that they’re going to be these gigantic conglomerates, and I’m not really sure where I fall. I think there will be a disservice to most clients if it does go towards the big conglomerate, but hopefully it doesn’t go that way. But, right. I like to ask this question because it’s sort of revealing. What do you think your biggest struggle is?
Ryan
My biggest struggle bullies myself, no question. I sometimes hyper focus on my business in a way that I’m not present with my family. Sometimes I have in the past, I don’t know, three years gained 50 pounds, I used to run marathons and run them pretty fast. And I’m not doing that anymore. My diet has suffered, my sleep has suffered, basically, you know, you could look at it, you could say, like, I’m slowly, like killing myself doing this stuff. And that is a massive problem. Because it’s sort of like, you know, if I don’t make it past 45, or something, like that’s, that’s a really, I can look at it a lot of ways, but I can look at it as a business failure as well. So making the time setting those boundaries, where I’m turning off where I am focusing on my health is really in treating it as if it’s a business problem. Yeah, that’s my biggest. That’s my biggest thing. Yeah,
Jim Hacking
I can totally relate to that. I get caught up in this. I want to save the world. I want to be a big player in the legal community, I want to have this kick ass podcast with my little friend, Tyson. And then I sacrifice my own health and sanity. So I can totally relate to that. And I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that is the quote unquote, thread or a problem for every firm he has, you know, and the other thing too, is just making the firm too dependent on us. So if we’re not healthy, if we’re not taking care of ourselves in everything where the center spoke, then if something does happen to us, then a lot of people are out of a job and the thing sort of collapses. No doubt. Hey, Ryan, how did you find the maximum lawyer? How did you find our podcast?
Ryan
Probably through the Fisher’s mastermind group? I think that’s probably where where I picked up.
Tyson Mutrux
Right what’s your favorite episode? We’ll put you on the spot.
Ryan
The episodes that stand out for me I really liked Craig golden farms episode. I most recently like Charles boys episode, a ton, Seth price. I mean, really all the all of those are the ones that stand out. Oh, Michael whiners episode. I’ve loved
Jim Hacking
you. I think there’s a pattern in the ones that you like, I think you absolutely firms. I think you like the ones where someone has created a firm where lots of people are then working at that firm, doing sort of different pieces of it, where it’s not all based on. I mean, Greg has a team of 45 people, Seth built his website company and his law firm. Were with lots of other pieces. So I think it’s funny, because those are the ones that I find myself drawn to.
Ryan
Yeah, I think I think that’s absolutely right. Because I think I think that those are the problems that I struggle with, I forget, I think it was one of your podcasts that mentioned like, you know, really, one of the ways for growth was we were understaffed for way, way, way too long. You know, a year ago, it was me basically a part time two part time paralegals, Ruby, receptionist, and that put a tremendous, tremendous strain on us and realizing that sort of for the next level of growth and for actual sustainable growth, I was going to need to leverage the time and talents of others, you know, and now I’ve got Sarah, who, you know, can’t sleep and she’s preparing our systems for a prelit paralegal who is going to join us in you know, 10 days. Yeah, that’s where I’m at.
Tyson Mutrux
Right, give us a little peek into your into your vision. What do you see in the future for your firm?
Ryan
What I see in the future for our firm, is, you know, first of all continued growth in the Connecticut space, we absolutely want to become, you know, and this is sort of an amorphous thing. And it’s pointless, but it’s like we want to become really Connecticut’s best injury firm. And that’s priority number one. You know, priority number two is the idea that we’ve been toying with it, you know, sort of I talked about earlier, where we’re trying to build, work our cases and build our systems. I think priority number two is really licensing some of the stuff that we do internally to firms across the country who are looking to do legal stuff. I mean, the real nitty gritty of our systems of our file, vine of all of that. And I think that that’s phase number two, and that will require changes at our firm in terms of right now I have an active caseload of, you know, 75 cases, that needs to get trimmed down, and probably trimmed down to a few cases and then ultimately, at some point, none.
Jim Hacking
I totally relate to that, too. I mean, that’s my that’s my goal is to get to that place. I’m going to try to get there as much as I can by the end of the year. Brian, I know we’re running short on time. So I want to respect your your day. What do you think you’re going to be doing? As far as growing the firm where do you see things headed and as far as staffing, what do you think’s going to happen?
Ryan
As far as staffing we, you know, in this help Fisher mastermind really helped with this. And it’s really proceeding with a linear workflow. Whereas, you know, we have intake goes from intake to pre lit to lit, my partner Andrew overseeing all of the litigation, or all of the firm’s cases really, in managing it through meeting and reporting features that we have in file vine. That’s sort of step number one, the next step in our growth is hiring an attorney, because we get our time eaten up a lot with depositions, and things that we we essentially probably don’t have to be there for but can’t get out of at this point. And, you know, in terms of, you know, growing the firm, I’ve got a Connecticut Personal Injury book coming out, you know, we’ve got marketing plans, Michael liner gave me some great ideas for that, you know, how to use those books, you know, in terms of, you know, getting them really out to the first responders, getting them out to the media saying, you know, hear you guys come and comment on personal injury cases, you know, my vote is going to be on your shelf. And, you know, those are the ways in which we’re going to grow the firm. And as we sort of beef up our legal process, I will step over into what is, at this point, considered critical cases, you know, five or six of the firm’s highest value cases, and then ultimately, out.
Tyson Mutrux
I love it, Ryan, we want to be respectful of your time, and everyone else that’s watching. So we’re gonna wrap things up, I do want to remind everyone to please give us a review on iTunes, if you’re enjoying this podcast, also go to the Facebook page and join the Facebook group there. There’s a lot of discussion, but we’re gonna get to our tip and the hack of the week. Jimmy, what’s your hack,
Jim Hacking
I actually have two hacks this week. My first hack is pacing loves the bus on me for doing too many things myself, but I will, I was very happy to get this settlement check in the mail this week. And you’ll notice it’s handwritten by Tyson himself. And I believe there’s software out there that will actually allow you to print out and not write them out by hand. So if you have the ability to get that software, that’s one of my hacks for the week. But my real hack for the week is to take the Colby index, I took the Colby index, which is a assessment of your cognitive functions and sort of how you make decisions and sort of where your strengths are. And so for me, it was very enlightening, I learned that I on a scale of one to 10, I’m very much a quickstart. So I’m very good at at starting things my follow through is not so good. So just being able to have a language to put that into and to just sort of see where my strengths are and my weaknesses, it really helped it cost like 50 bucks to do it. If you go to Colby, kol v.com, you should be able to find it. And we had our whole team do it. So at our next firm retreat, we’re going to go over everybody’s Colby, so that we can talk about how we all give and receive half and information from each other.
Tyson Mutrux
It’s a really good one, Jim, I like that. That’s actually the old from that’s an old case. And so that’s that’s why it’s handwritten. But anyways, Ryan, you know, the routine, and what is your tip of the week,
Ryan
my tip of the week is drink water. I started up with a personal trainer about four, four weeks ago now. And you know, he said to me, he weighed me. And then he says, you know, you need to be drinking half an ounce of water a day for every pound unique way. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that is just that is a massive amount of water. And it is and I track it in my Fitbit app. But drinking water I have found helps me break free of the caffeination carb cycle that is just that’s really destroying me. And keeping that water in balance carrying water 100. And well for me, you know, 100 and some odd ounces of water a day. Yeah, drink water, everything else can fall into place. From there.
Tyson Mutrux
That is a really good tip. And you actually gave me a tip before it’s hard to drink that much water, but it’s really good. So my tip is actually something you gave me a tip that you gave me and that’s to read the book, traction. Traction is a really, really good book I recommended Get a grip before, but they’re both really, really good books. I think it’s still in the it’s in the same vein as the Ultimate Sales Machine and things like that. So it’s a really, really good book.
Jim Hacking
Alright, well, we’ll wrap it up. And Ryan, thanks so much for being with us on the show. We really enjoyed having you here. And you’re always welcome. You’re a great contributor to the Facebook group. You always have good opinions and we really like having you with us. Thank you guys
