"Finding the Right Resources" w/ Carol Williams 192

This week on the show we have Carol Williams, an immigration attorney operating in Florida and Georgia. Carol delivers innovative solutions to problems that may seem unsolvable to others. She has worked extensively with companies of all sizes, from start-ups to multinational companies, as well as individuals trying to live and work in the USA. For 20 years her legal practice has concentrated exclusively on matters of immigration and nationality.
In today’s episode we’ll talk about building a business in the first year, block scheduling, and her virtual office!

8:57 1st year in business
17:30 block scheduling
27:35 virtual office

Jim’s Hack:
Jim recommends the book The Four Obsessions of an Extraordinary Executive by Patrick Lencioni. He pulled a lot from this book about coaching his team.

Tyson’s Tip:
Tyson recommends the sway app. It has you move around, and then using artificial intelligence it picks a song that makes you look like you’re dance to the song.

Carol’s Tip:
Recommends the book The Go Giver by Bob Burg. Carol says it’s the foundation of her law firm. Jim and Tyson agree it’s a great book! And Bob has been on the show! See episode 67

Don’t forget to sign up for MaxLawCon20!

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/maximum-lawyer-conference-2020-tickets-62992819218

For more details on MaxLawCon visit: https://maximumlawyer.com/max-law-con-2020/

Thanks so much for listening to the show! To keep on maximizing your firm, please join our Facebook Group – Maximum Lawyer, like us on Facebook – Maximum Lawyer Conference, and subscribe to our YouTube channel – Maximum Lawyer!

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Run your law firm the right way.

This is The Maximum Lawyer Podcast.

Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux.

Let's partner up and maximize your firm.

Welcome to the show.

Jim: Welcome back to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson: I'm Tyson Mutrux. What's up, Jimmy?

Jim: Good morning, Tyson. How are you, sir?

Tyson: I am doing well. I'm doing really well. How are you doing?

Jim: I can't complain. I was just telling Carol, I'm arguing a case in Kansas City, actually on Thursday, [inaudible 00:00:38] the Court of Appeals on a denaturalization case that I lost. It's a little bit stressful at the moment but things are good.

Tyson: You and I will be passing each other on the interstate on Thursday morning, unless you're driving in on Wednesday, because I'm going to be in St. Louis, you're going to be in Kansas City. We’ll be two ships passing in the breeze.

Jim: I'll be sure to give you the bird as I pass you by. 

Tyson: You go ahead. I won't see you. 

Jim: Let me introduce our guest today. It's a longtime member, an original OG member of Maximum Lawyer. Her name’s Carol Williams. She's an immigration lawyer down in Atlanta. She's a really good person. I just got on her website. Whenever I see her face, I smile. 

Carol, we're glad to have you on the show.

Carol: Hello. Hello. How are you all doing?

Tyson: Doing well. Doing well. It's a good, it's a nice, crisp, cold morning but it's not snowing so I'm happy. 

Carol, let's just jump right in. Tell us about your practice and the journey that you took to get to where you are now.

Carol: Sure. I'm actually in Atlanta and in Florida. I'm in sunny South Florida now. I run a virtual office.

I wound up here not because I planned it which is, apparently, how all of my life happened. My first immigration class I had in law school was actually in Mexico. I was on a study abroad. It was the only class I took that summer. I quite literally fell in love with everything about the class and everything about the subject. And then, honestly, the rest is history. I just went back to law school, weaseled my way into the immigration clinic, read everything I could read, and have been doing immigration ever since. 

And worked in big law which a lot of immigration attorneys actually don't, they go through big law. I was in big law for quite some time, representing companies who are hiring non-US citizens. And then, I left big law for a little bit, traveled the world for a little over a year, took a break from life, came back to big law.

Then, went into USCIS. I was part of that big government machine, on the immigration side. And then, left there. Shortly after that, started my own firm down in Atlanta. And then, about a year and a half ago, expanded the firm into Florida. I, too, have no snow.

Jim: Carol, what lessons did you learn in big law that sort of translated to running your own firm, either good things you learned or bad things?

Carol: Big law was absolutely great. Big law really taught me how to run a practice. For those listeners that have never been in big law, big law is all about building your own like a business and how to service your clients. That translated really well when I got into my own firm which was how to network. Networking is really key, getting to know people, but also getting to know what your clients want.

In my big law groups, we had specific teams set out for clients because clients really needed and wanted different things whether one client wanted an update on all of their files every Tuesday, maybe another one needed a quarterly in-person meeting. Without knowing it, I really learned how to be client-centric and how to really ask what the client wanted, and then how to form my team so that we were really giving the client what they needed.

And then, I worked with some really great rainmakers at the time so I learned really kind of how to structure my day to add the rainmaking, plus the work, plus the review of the work of paralegals, given that immigration is so paralegal heavy.

Tyson: I have a very similar question to Jim’s, but with regards to USCIS, how did you how did your time there shape your practice in how you work with your clients?

Carol: Working within USCIS was great. I handled a business portfolio. The area of law that I, prior to being in the government, had worked on. I was now in the government but I was working on it from a completely different standpoint. I was literally working on the opposite side and I was advocating for the complete opposite of what I was advocating for on the outside.

When I then left the government and came back into private sector, it is much easier for me now to look at a new piece of legislation, or a new policy, or when I listen to an engagement call with the government. It's easier for me now to read between the lines and really understand what they are trying to convey to us as private practice attorneys.

Part of what I did was work with the adjudicators, the folks that actually review the petitions. Several years of talking with them and dealing with files, with them, now gives me a much better understanding of what the government wants to see in a file but most importantly what they don't want to see in a file, what they don't consider relevant. That has been really helpful in terms of guiding my clients, in terms of the way to shift thinking about their application and about what they're trying to achieve, and how to work best with the government. It's really just sort of understanding the agency that you are now up against every single day.

Jim: All right, Carol, tell us about when you had that entrepreneurial seizure and wanted to go out on your own. How did that sort of work its way through?

Carol: It was actually pretty terrifying. I'm not one of these people that had it all planned out. I didn't have a business plan. When I started, I literally just decided that I wasn't right for big law, like it just wasn't a good fit for me anymore. I felt like a square peg in a round hole and I decided I didn't want to go back to the government. I had done there, been there, done that. And so, I thought, “Well, the next sort of natural thing, it would seem, was to start my own firm.”

I started my own firm. I wanted to take a slightly different client base. In addition to representing businesses, I also wanted to represent individuals. That doesn't really lend itself in a big firm. I literally, one day, jumped off a cliff, got online, got my LLC together. I remember hitting the submit button and not really understanding what had just happened, thinking, “Oh, well, is it done? Do I have a business? Am I set up? What do I do now?”

And then, I called my brother, who's a real estate agent in New York City and a fantastic one, by the way. I said, “Okay, well, I've done this.” He said, “Okay. Now, we need to get you more strategic in your networking.” He just laid out all of these things that I needed to do. He said, I need to be strategic at my networking. I needed to figure out exactly who I wanted my clients to be, where I thought they were going to come from, how to get in front of them, and really just walked me through the process that he had gone through years before when he started to become a real estate agent because that is also running your own business.

I literally jumped off a cliff, had no idea what I was doing. Over time, I have found excellent resources like [inaudible 00:08:01], the podcast, and different Facebook groups out there, and other folks that I knew who had gone out on their own before me, who were also immigration attorneys who were so incredibly helpful. There are other attorneys in Atlanta who offered their help and assistance and just would let me call them and ask the most mundane questions in terms of “What technology do I use? How do I set myself up? Where's the best place and the cheapest place to get paper clips?” Any and all questions were on the table. I just really developed this really great network of other giving attorneys that were so giving to me and helpful to me.

Tyson: Carol, there really are just so many resources out there. Billy [inaudible 00:08:44] sent Jim and I a text this morning just saying, he loves the community. He likes mentoring younger lawyers. There's a lot of other lawyers in the group that are willing to do that which is what I love about the community. 

Here’s what I want. I want you to think back through the first year. I want you to talk it through with us and how things went that first year because that's usually the most difficult time for people. It's the most exciting time for people. Walk us through that. How did that go?

Carol: Sure.

My first year was absolutely terrifying and exhilarating, all at the same time. I joined some networking group so that I could get to know people. I had no idea what I was doing. In that year, I learned how to hone my elevator pitch and like, really, really think about it and really workshop it with some other attorneys in my networking group. I obsessed over some of the craziest things when I think back now just some of the craziest things.

One of my obsessions was sign-here stickies. Big firm, we always had sign here stickies. We would forms out to the clients with the appropriate sign-here stickies. I obsessed for probably a good two months about the fact that I didn't want to pay for sign-here stickies and that my clients looked at it as certainly unprofessional. Everyone I told started laughing at me and I was like, “No, no, no. I'm going to lose these few clients I have over these sign-here stickies. When I think about it now, six and a half years ago, it’s crazy but I spent a lot of time obsessing with various small things.

What I did not do, my first year of practice, which I think everyone should do is, when I had all this downtime, when I was creating my firm, when I was looking for clients, I did not setup processes and procedures in my firm. I really should have. I didn't understand the importance of that until much, much later. That's one big thing that I didn't do that I should have done.

I think what I did really well in my first year was to set up a file structure for every client. While I would love to take credit for that, I can't. That actually comes from my immigration clinic professor from law school. 

My first year was a lot of trial and error. It was a lot of trial and error. It was just asking a lot of questions and understanding that questions are a good thing and really relying a lot on my friends who were other immigration attorneys. There was a lot of self-doubt that first year. I met some really good immigration attorney friends that I went to law school with, and that I worked with in law school, and I would call them. They would say, “You know you're right. You know what you're doing from a legal perspective. It's just self-doubt because you're by yourself.” They were 100% correct. They were 100% supportive and answered all of my questions. I'm proud to say I do not call them every day now with crazy questions.

But the first year were absolutely terrifying and absolutely exhilarating. There were days I didn't know there would be a firm the next day, the next hour, the next month. Not a whole lot of sleep that first year. I'm proud to say I'm sleeping much better now. Yeah, I mean, it was a tough year. A lot of guesswork went into it.

I was cleaning my desk actually really towards the end of the first year of my practice. I write in notebooks. I keep everything in notebooks. Until I found the notebook that I used during that first year. I'm surrounded by all of this paper in my office and I just started flipping through the notebook. I just started laughing and remembering all the things that used to confuse me like, “What should the corporate entity be?” The whole sign here sticky things. “Do I want files? Do I want paper files? Do I want electronic files? What does that look like?”

I've tried 18,000 networking groups and only two of them are really good. Obviously, I'm not doing enough. It was all this self-doubt that I had pouring out through these pages. of my notebook. The great thing was that I was past all that and I was now onto seeing different challenges that I was very sure that, the next year, I would look back at that notebook and be amazed that I got through that. That was kind of my first year, a lot of self-doubt but really, really excited about it all.

Jim: That's great, Carol. Journaling is so helpful both, like you said, while you're doing it and then when you get to read it later and laugh. Hey, listen, talk to us a little bit about where your best clients come from, sort of how you've developed your firm and helped it grow.

Carol: A lot of my clients come from attorneys that don't do what I do, and networking, and getting to know people, and really building good solid relationships. Well, sat down several different times and really kind of figured out who I liked to work with. When I look back on my time in big law, who did I really gel with? Who did I really just love to work with? Who did I have a really great working relationship with?

And so, I kind of built that out and really put it on people, and then tried to figure out where those folks are at. There’s still a part of me that’s still telling me, “Just figure out where your ideal client’s hangs out” because it’s not like they all hang out at the same organization, or the same watering hole, or the same place online.

But then, I’ve realized that a very big source of referrals, for me, were truly other attorneys that didn't do what I did. Since I was in this networking mode, when I first started my firm-- and I'm still in that working mode, I wanted getting to know a lot of different attorneys. It just happened that a lot of attorneys that I was meeting were not immigration attorneys. The one thing they all said to me was, “We don't understand what you do. I don't want to understand what you do. I just need to know that I can call you and can do these individuals or these businesses and they'll be taken care of.” I said, “If you trust me with your current clients or your referrals, they will absolutely do right by them.”

I spent a lot of time building up a referral network of other attorneys. I've actually started an attorney-only lunch/networking group down here in Florida just to give attorneys just a space to be attorneys, and to hang out, and to talk about all things related to our practices without having someone come in and try to sell us a service. I certainly think there's a time and a place for that but I wanted to create a safe space for attorneys to just come and workshop through their ideas and their firms that they're working through, or that they may be struggling with, or say, “Hey, I have this really great win last week and my family doesn't really get it because my spouse is irritated that I haven't washed the dishes and my kids are upset because I missed the ballgame,” right, and just giving attorneys a really safe space.

And so, it's about building relationships with other attorneys. I often joke around that I run my mouth all over town. I have met a lot of people since I've been back in Florida. I still go up to Atlanta and keep in touch with people there. Really, for me, it's about relationship building. That's really my strongest source. I don't do any pay-per-click. I don't do any paid ads. For me, it's really about building relationships and that's really kind of where I focus.

And so, when I was thinking about who my best clients were, it were those clients where we talked about more than the work. I knew about their homeruns. I knew about their families. There's one client in particular that kind of started me on this path that I spent a lot of time with this client in person. We had a huge audit to do. Through that audit, I went over to her house. I had dinner with her and her family and her mom. I realized that that's the kind of relationship that I want with my clients. I seek out those kinds of relationships with my clients and those kinds of relationships with other attorneys. For me, it's all about relationship building.

Tyson: Carol, you seem very put together and successful. It's easy, from the outside looking in, seem like, “She's got everything put together. She's got it going on.” Tell us what you struggle with though because everything can't be all wonderful and roses all the time because you seem like you've got it together. What is it that you struggle with?

Carol: I love that you think I have it all together. I call myself a functional hot mess. It takes a lot just to sort of organize. I think the biggest struggle for me, right now, is time management. That's when I realized, for months, at the end of every day, I would have all of these open tabs on my computer, all these open files and they were sort of half touched. To me, it's like squirrels like, “Oh, look at that. It's new and exciting. Oh, look. Hey, wait, my phone's ringing. Oh, wait, there's an email.” I was constantly jumping from item to items, to item. That feeling of frustration. That feeling of not getting work done, even though I felt exhausted by the end of the day, that I thought I was working really hard.

I was working really hard but I wasn't was working very smart. That's what actually prompted me to get a business coach. I sought out a business coach and I sat down with him. He said, “All right. Well, what are you struggling?” Same question as that. I said, “I have all these open files at the end of the day and nothing is completely done. I feel so far behind. I feel like my clients are all going to start screaming at me.” He said, “Okay, I get that.” And so, he re-introduced me to block scheduling. Whenever I start to feel a little out of control with just the number of cases and the fact that I don't feel like I'm moving them fast enough, my clients are complaining, I just feel like I'm not moving them as fast as I want to be moving them, I go back to that conversation, that first conversation that I had with him, and I go back to my block scheduling because I'm human, right, like I'm a functional hot mess and every so often I go completely off the rails and just like I stop my block scheduling. That's when it all falls apart for me.

When I go back to basics and I start blocking-- I go back to my block scheduling, I can see that that helps me keep everything together. It really helps me keep my time organized. It helps me be more efficient with the work that I'm doing. I tend to spend less time jumping from phone call to email, to client work. That's been a big struggle for me. It's always been a big struggle. 

Thanks to my business coach, he sort of helped me identify what the problem was and then a solution to fix it, to help me kind of work on it. That's kind of a big thing for me. It’s just really trying to keep to my block scheduling and not being enticed by every new shiny thing that happens during the day.

Jim: We will pause for a word from our sponsors. 

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Jim: We're talking on the The Maximum Lawyer Podcast today with Carol Williams who was just explaining to us the values of block scheduling. That's such good advice.

Carol, you also mentioned your business coach. I know that you are in several groups and that you're not afraid to spend a little money to try to improve your practice. Tell us about sort of your coaching journey and the things that you've learned along the way.

Carol: Sure.

For my first business coach, that I was saying, really helped me figure out my block scheduling and sort of took all that anxiety off the table. I still work with this business coach. I joke around like, “He's never ever getting rid of me.” Along the way, I've asked for help to understand marketing and sales. I've had someone sit down and really help me understand not only the numbers of my business but how to evaluate those numbers and how to really look at those numbers so that I help my firm grow.

I've worked with folks that have helped me really develop a business plan. When I started my practice, I thought growth for me would look like an office, eventually buying a building, and having all these employees in one location. For probably two years, that was sort of my focus and that was my goal. I really was working toward that but there was something in me that wasn't fully bought into that idea. And then, I realized, because that's not actually my goal. I actually hate going into an office every day and I always have. I had adopted someone else’s goal, potentially.

And so, my business coach helped me with that. I said, “You know, if that’s not me and that’s not who I am, then that doesn’t have to be my goal.” That may be the majority of lawyers’ goals, right, but it doesn't have to be my goal. Through that business coach, I was really able to figure out that my goal is really to have 100% referral, to have people all over the country and/or world who are a cohesive team and still working together, that they don't come into one location every day to get work done.

I've always been that person, long before work from home was a thing, long before it was popular, I said, “Well, can I just take this home and do it? It'll get done much faster if I don't have people coming into my office and all that. I can just get rid of all the distractions.” And so, my old supervisors were great in that they allowed me to do that. Goodness only knows why I thought I wanted this whole brick and mortar office.

Just being open to talking to other attorneys, talking to people who know more than I do, and then being willing to listen to their answers. I have what I call my brain trust of very, very close friend and attorneys and I talk to them. I'm like, “What are you doing for this? Here's what I'm thinking. Does this make any sense? Tell me why this is a bad idea. Or, tell me why it's a good idea.” And they are honest. I think they feel [inaudible 00:24:47] honest because I listen and I'm not going to [inaudible 00:24:51]. When I seek out someone’s advice whether it's like a professional coach and that's their job, or just another attorney, I really want their input because I really don't know the answer. I don't tell my brother this but I actually don't know the answer to everything but I've convinced him that I do.

I appreciate someone else’s perspective. Being a business owner was and still is completely new to me. I'm still learning. I don't know everything that I need to know about running a business. For me, it's been really great to get other peoples' advice.

One of the things I love about the Facebook community that you all have created is that it's such a safe space for people to ask questions. It's such a safe place for people to disagree with one another and we all learn from that process I read things every day and then will tell, “Anyone thought about that?” I don't have that problem now but I will have it at some point, right, because it also means that that you have different problems.

And so, that for me, is great to be able to learn from other people. I've always just really tried to get help in running this business called my law firm because I didn't know what I was doing. I knew how to practice law. I had background but P&L statements, bookkeeping I have no idea. I have no idea but I was forced to ask for help and I still ask for help. I think it’s great. Like my coaches, my coaches do a lot for me.

Tyson: Funny, you're saying like P&L statements and things like that, and people are like, “What are you talking about?” So, if you're saying that-- 

Carol: Right.

Tyson: --recap to someone and get some advice. That’s funny.

Just out of sheer curiosity, if you're not going to be a lawyer, what would you do?

Carol: Originally, when I went to law school, I was not planning on practicing forever. I was going to practice for maybe 10 or 15 years. And then, I was going to be a travel agent because I'd love to travel. The internet has [inaudible 00:26:42]-- not many travel agents, absolutely, but made it much more harder. Travel agents are now much more niched.

I think, today, if I were not going to practice law, I would like to go into one of the trades, and be creative, and use my hand every day, and spend time outside. I don't know which trade. I don't know what that would look like but I would like to do something creative where I could use that side of my brain. I don't know that that side of my brain gets used every day.

I mean, truly, if I didn't have to work, I would be a lady that lunches and travels. That I'm extremely good at. I am very good at lunching and eating and I'm very good at travel. If we could somehow make a job out of that, yeah, that would be ideal [inaudible 00:27:29].

Tyson: If you're listening and you've got that kind of a job, give Carol a call because she might love to do it as well.

Carol: That might be. That might be.

Jim: All right, Carol, for my last question. Talk to us a little bit about the move down to Florida and how running the virtual office in Atlanta has worked out.

Carol: My office in Atlanta was really only a virtual office. I had virtual office space where I would go and I would just use it as an address and I would meet clients there. And then, when I decided to relocate and expand down to Florida, I, again, looked at my clients and what they were saying to me. Every single client that came to the office, after the first meeting, they all asked me, “Do I have to come back to the office? Traffic is bad, I have to take time off of work. Do I have to come back?” I said, “Well, actually, no, you don't ever have to come back to the office. I'm more than happy to do things over video conference, email, and phone.”

When I moved down to Florida, I decided not to even get a virtual office space. I don't have office space here in Florida. I still have the virtual office space in Atlanta but I don't have a virtual office space in Florida. Honestly, no one has really cared. Everyone is perfectly fine not having to take time off of work in the middle of the day and drive to me. I do more client visits where I will go out to them, if that makes sense, depending on the facts of the case and what's happening with the client.

For my corporate clients, they really don't have time. There's no expectation for them that I see them face-to-face. They're perfectly fine with phone and email. Some of my family-based clients, my family immigration-based clients, they're great with video conference.

And also, Jim, you get this, our clients aren't always in the United States. I have found that if I'm dealing with a married couple or a fiancée situation with one person that's outside of the US, the fact that I offer a video conference makes that person, who's outside of the US, feel like they're more involved in the process. They have an opportunity to see me, lay eyes on me, ask me questions directly versus having to go through their spouse or their fiancée all the time to get answers. It eliminates this whole game of telephone and they have direct access to me. I found that the clients really were fine with that. 

I remember I emailed my clients, when I was leaving Atlanta, kind of gave them the rundown and gave them a timeframe of when I would be actively moving, unpacking boxes, and when I would have like a new P.O. box set up down in Atlanta. I thought I was going to get some pushback. If I tell you exactly one client emailed me, they said, “Congratulations! Just let us know when you're all set up.”

I kept saying, I was like, “God, they must all be mad. They must all be ready to go somewhere.” My friends kept saying, “No. They're fine. It just means that they know that you'll continue to get the work done.” And I said, “No, no, no, no. You're wrong. No, no, you're wrong. No, they’re all getting ready to go somewhere else.” I asked a few them and they're like, “We didn't really care. We don't care where you do the work as long as it gets done.” That was a huge lesson in and of itself.

I took this leap of moving to Florida and expanding the firm, not sure if it would work, not sure if I would take my existing clients with me. They were like, “We don't really care where you are.” In fact, only one of them responded to my email so it's been--

Tyson: I love it.

Carol: --it's been a really smooth process, quite honestly. I thought there would be little bumps in the road but it was a very, very smooth process.

Tyson: Good stuff.

All right. I hate to do this but we do have to wrap things up. Before I do. I want to remind everyone to register for MaxLawCon 2020. I'm pretty sure we've already sold more tickets as of right now, than we did all of last year, but we want to pack the house. If you really want to build your practice and get better, you should register for it. It is one of the cheapest conferences you'll ever pay for, especially for the value that you're going to get because we’ve got a lot of great speakers. The lineup is amazing. Make sure you register because at the end of the month, beginning of March, prices go up yet and they won't go down anymore. Make sure that you get your tickets now.

Jimmy, what's your hack of the week?

Jim: Just got done reading a nice little business novel. It's called The Four Obsessions of the Effective Entrepreneur. It’s by Patrick Lencioni. It's really good. It talks about what you have to do with your teams, and clarity, and coaching your team. I got a lot out of it.

Tyson: Very good stuff. All right, Carol, you know the routine. You've got a tip or hack for us. What is it?

Carol: My tip is The Go-Giver, by Bob Burg. For me, it is the foundation of my practice, the foundations of my law firm. It is about thinking about others before you think about yourself and, essentially, that karma will work its way back to you but really building great relationships and focusing on other people.

Tyson: I love that book. It’s one of my favorites. Whenever Jim and I speak, sometimes I give away the book. It's really good. I love that book.

What were you going to say, Jim?

Jim: We had Bob on the show.

Tyson: Bob was one of our-- I remember, whenever we got Bob to come on the show, Jim and I were just so nerdy and excited about it because it was just all-- 

Carol: Because he’s amazing.

Tyson: Yeah, and he lives the book. That was amazing about it like he’d go, “Yeah, I'll come on the show. That’s no problem.” 

Thanks to Miss Jackson for setting that up, by the way, Mitch helped to set it up. 

All right. My tip is just a fun little app that Christopher [inaudible 00:33:23] introduced me to. If anybody saw his video yesterday, it's from the sway app. It is the funniest thing. You can find creative ways to mix this into your marketing. Basically, what you do, Jim, is you-- and I want to see a video from both of you today. All right, Carol and Jim, download the sway app. It has you like do these different motions, move around, and using their what they say artificial intelligence, you can pick a song and it’ll have you dancing to the song and doing the dance. It looks pretty darn real. It's pretty freakin’ cool. It was so real that I showed my wife and she's like, “How'd you do that?” And then, I showed my kids and they actually think it's me dancing. And so, it's so cool. It's called the sway app. There are two apps in the and the apps are called sway. It's the one that has to do with dancing so pick that one. 

All right. That is our show for this week.

Carol, thanks so much for coming on. I learned a lot from you, so thank you for coming on.

Carol: No problem, [inaudible 00:34:23] you guys are great.

Jim: Thanks, guys.

Tyson: Thank you all. We’ll see ya.

Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. To stay in contact with your hosts and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com.

Have a great week and catch you next time.