In this episode, Jim and Tyson interview Kwame Christian; an attorney and an expert in negotiation and mediation. They will go over the importance of negotiating and mediating in law and in your business.
About Kwame: https://kchristianlaw.com/about/
Kwame is also a podcaster, and he hosts his own podcast; Negotiate Anything: Negotiation | Persuasion | Influence | Sales | Leadership; the top rank negotiation podcast in iTunes.
Hacking’s hack: A book. Content Inc.: How Entrepreneurs Use Content to Build Massive Audiences and Create Radically Successful Businesses
Hardcover – September 8, 2015 by Joe Pulizzi (Author)
Kwame’s tip: A challenge. Whenever you as an attorney want to say something through a statement that ends in a period, or an exclamation point, try to turn that into an open ended question and see if you can guide the other side to where you want to go.
Curiosity is one of the keys to persuasion. Developing that habit will help you become more persuasive.
A gift for our listeners from Kwame; The Ultimate Negotiation Guide.
https://americannegotiationinstitute.com/guide/
Thank you Kwame!
Tyson’s tip: To increase efficiency in your firm, sit down and map out your business from point A to point B. Be very detailed.
It will help you identify those redundancies so you can remove them from your firm and make you more efficient.
BONUS Books:
Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It
Hardcover – May 17, 2016
by Chris Voss (Author), Tahl Raz (Author)
Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion
Revised Edition
by Robert B. Cialdini (Author)
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Transcripts: Kwame Christian: Law, Negotiation, and Mediation
Kwame Christian
One of the things that I’ve recognized with attorneys in general, but litigators in particular, we like to be right. It’s one of the best things that we have in our pocket, especially if we’re actually going to trial, because we need to convince the jury or the judge that we are right. But that same mentality causes serious issues when it comes to negotiation, because it’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about being persuasive.
Unknown Speaker
Run your law firm, the right way. This is the maximum liar, podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking, and Tyson Meatrix. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show.
Jim Hacking
Welcome back to the maximum lawyer podcast. I am Jim hacking,
Tyson Mutrux
and I’m tasting new tricks. Hey, Jimmy, we got a pretty awesome guest this week is I think it is and I may not be right about this. I think this is our first guest we’ve had on that is a podcast host himself. Is that right, Jimmy?
Jim Hacking
I think you are correct. I will have to look through the list. But yeah, I think I don’t think we’ve had any podcasters on the show before. So I’m excited about that.
Tyson Mutrux
Like, so I do have some questions about that require you to introduce yourself.
Kwame Christian
Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me on the show, guys. I appreciate it. And I am honored to be a first podcaster fellow podcaster as a guest.
Tyson Mutrux
Alright, so will you talk a little bit about the podcast that you have yourself? Yeah,
Kwame Christian
so my podcast is called negotiate anything. It’s the top rank negotiation podcast on iTunes. And so on my show, I have two kinds of episodes. One kind is where I nerd out by myself on the topic, my backgrounds in psychology. So I like to talk about not only the X’s and O’s that go into the negotiation strategy, but also why they work in the minds of the people on the other side. And then the other types of shows that I do are interview based. And so with the interviews, I have somebody come in and talk about a narrow sliver of, of negotiation, or persuasion or conflict resolution, something like that. And then we bifurcate the episodes. So that’s one half of the episode where they’re talking about the skill. And then the second half of the episode is where we I call it a sparring session, where they go head to head against me and show how to use those skills in a in a live negotiation session. And in the sparring session, my goal is to be the listeners worst nightmare. Somebody that’s socially awkward, difficult to deal with unnecessarily combative, and the other side, the guest gets to show how they can use the skill that they just taught us in this type of situation to pacify me and get what they want. So it’s a lot of fun been doing it for about a year and a half. And looking forward to keeping it up.
Jim Hacking
I’m I can really appreciate your podcast, I’m gonna have to listen to it for sure. Because I have to deal with a socially awkward, maladjusted individual every week on my show. No, we’re really we’re really happy to have you on the show. Why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about how you became a lawyer and like where you grew up and sort of your your story to owning your own firm.
Kwame Christian
Yeah, it’s it’s an interesting tale. So I grew up in a small town called Tiffin, Ohio, and my family is from the Caribbean. And so growing up in small town, Ohio was, was tough because I was really different from everybody else. I had a really strong accent, I look differently. And so I realized that my earliest negotiations were negotiating friendship and acceptance. And I think that’s really the way the what shaped the way I interact with people today. And so going into school, I was fascinated with the way people think human cognition just is endlessly fascinating to me. So I majored in psychology and picked up minors in Spanish and minors in Foundations of Law. And then I went to OSU as law school and overseas law school and got a dual degree with a Master’s of Public Policy at the same time. And while I was in law school, I discovered negotiation kind of by accident, I took the class because it fit into my schedule. And I fell in love because I figured that I realized that negotiation was gave legs to what I’ve learned in psychology, it was like using psychology for a business or legal purpose. And after that, I recognized I didn’t even know this when I went into the school, but Ohio State at the top ranked dispute resolution program in the country. And we had these negotiation competition. So my partner and I, we competed against 55 other teams in the school, and we ended up winning the competition. And then that allowed us to represent the school at the American Bar Association regional competition in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition too. And then we were we made it to the semi finals of nationals in New Orleans. And so after that, I was hooked. I was like, whatever I do, it needs to involve this. And so started my own practice so I could work with small business owners, but it wasn’t really the the outlet that I wanted for negotiation. I got to negotiate contract, but it wasn’t enough. And so that’s why I started the American negotiation Institute and the podcasts. So in that role, I work as a negotiation consultant. And I work with different business owners and attorneys that are having trouble with some of their deals. And I come in and help them implement strategies to get what they want. And I serve as a mediator, too. So that is how I got to where I am today.
Tyson Mutrux
Call me how do you market? And how do you get your clients,
Kwame Christian
which side on the law firm side or the podcast side?
Tyson Mutrux
On the law firms, law firms? Okay, so
Kwame Christian
the law firm, the way the with the law firm that’s local. So I’m limited in jurisdictions. So with the law firm, what I started to do in order to get more recognition, as an expert in what I’m doing, is I started putting on negotiation seminars all around the city. So in every city, there’s going to be business organizations that want to provide trainings for small business owners around the city. And so I just started reaching out to these people, and saying, Hey, I could do let me do one on negotiation. So with my seminars, it’s a really interactive presentation, it’s more of a conversation than a presentation, really, I encourage people to interrupt me, and go back and forth. So it’s really fun for everybody. And then at the end, I create a hypothetical situation where they get to practice the skills they learned in the presentation, in a safe environment with somebody else in the room. So it’s a business negotiation that they would have to do with small business owners. And by doing that regularly, it’s like it’s free marketing, people started to become familiar with me and recognizing what I could provide. And usually from those presentations, you could anticipate getting one to two clients. And then down the road, people would give referrals saying, Oh, I was in this, this one guy’s President negotiation seminar, he was really good, you should call him. And that’s really the number one way that I started to proliferate throughout the community. It’s such an easy thing to do in concept, it’s tough to develop those presentation skills. But when you think about it, they’re not many attorneys that are going out and doing presentations that aren’t boring. So if you can take something that you’re passionate about and make it interesting for an audience that wants to learn that topic, they’ll be appreciative, and it’ll stick in their minds. And they’ll think about you first, when it’s time to get something done.
Jim Hacking
For me, a lot of our listeners are litigators. And they spend a lot of their time butting heads with other attorneys and driving themselves insane. What tips or advice do you have for our listeners about, you know, the power of negotiation trying to work things out sort of professionalism? I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Kwame Christian
Yeah, the timing could not be more perfect for that question. Because right after I’m done with this call, I’m going to do a negotiation seminar up in Cleveland for some attorneys in the plaintiffs bar. And one of the things that I’ve recognized with attorneys in general, but litigators in particular, we like to be right. It’s one of the best things that we have in our, in our pocket, especially if we’re actually going to trial, because we need to convince the jury or the judge that we are right. But that same mentality causes serious issues when it comes to negotiation. Because it’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about being persuasive. And the thing that makes persuasion so difficult is the fact that it’s not difficult in terms of conceptually, what you need to do in order to be persuasive. What’s difficult about persuasion is the fact that it often doesn’t feel good. Like I need to suspend my judgment, oh, that, I don’t like that. I need to let them have little wins. But I don’t like that. And so think about it. If you’re a litigator, and you believe you have the right side of the argument, the other person believes that to and they’re financially incentivized to believe that as well. And so there’s going to be no circumstance where they’re going to find it, okay, to go back to their client and say, Well, you know, Jim was just so much smarter than me. He just overwhelmed me with reason, and I had to capitulate, that’s never going to happen. And so one of the things you need to do is be willing to allow them to have little wins in order to get what you want. And so one of the things I’m going to talk about in the presentation today, is what I like to call the acceptance speech test. Are you able to frame what you are presenting to the other side in a way that they can take it back to their clients, and give an acceptance speech, and explain to them why this is a good deal? If the only thing you’re offering is I’m right, you’re wrong. It’s not You’re not going to get what you want, you’re going to really run into a lot of resistance. And so persuasion is about is really the art of letting them have your way, at the end of the day.
Tyson Mutrux
I love that acceptance speech concept. That’s pretty awesome. I’m gonna start using that. But I want to stay on this topic for a second. What are some of the mistakes that you see attorneys making or just party it doesn’t have to be an attorney, that parties in the mediation or in the negotiation process, what are some of the mistakes that they make?
Kwame Christian
Yeah, one of the mistakes the biggest, honestly, the I think the biggest barrier to persuasion in these situations of conflict is the, the amygdala. Okay, so indulge me for a moment while I take us down a path of evolutionary psychology. So, today when though back in the day when when death lurked around every corner, we were in a position where we needed to be on our guard at all times. And the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system is was the thing that made us scared. And we have three main responses to fear, fight, flight, and freeze, which is often overlooked. That’s the deer in the headlights response. And so that was really handy. It keeps us alive back in the day. But today, society has evolved faster than our brains. And as a result, those same fear responses that kept us alive are the same fear responses that lead us to issue than trouble when it comes to dealing effectively with conflict. So one of the things that people often do is we we always would start off with a demand letter, where essentially it says, give us what we want, or we are going to sue you into the stone age. And so what does that have? What effect does that have? What does the amygdala read that, wow, I’m scared. Now we have three options, I’m either going to fight you, which leads to instant resistance, I’m going to run away, which leads us to being ghosted by the other side, or I’m going to freeze, I’m just not going to I’m going to Stonewall you, I’m going to I’m going to be in the conversation physically, but not emotionally or mentally. And neither of those none of those options are good for us. We need people to be able to actively engage with what we’re saying. And so I remember the last demand letter I wrote, it was a couple of weeks back, and somebody posted a video using our content, the content of my clients. And it was not flattering at all. And so my clients wasn’t there, their media company, they weren’t happy, their clients weren’t happy, because it was material that the client was really proud of. And their client was really proud of it as well. So it reflected poorly on everybody. Now the issue was based on the amount of time of the clips that they posted, it would have been really tough to get that down legally using the copyright law, I think they would have been in the right I think they had every legal right to post what they did, we just didn’t like it. And so when the demand letter I wrote it was about one and a half pages. I never once mentioned the law. I never once mentioned any types of threats about what would happen later, I focused on writing a letter that was persuasive, not a letter that was legally right. And about two days after I wrote that, we they got the they took the video down, and I was scheduling coffee with the other side, we all want to grab coffee. So it’s it’s a different approach. But it’s more effective. It doesn’t feel good to really suspend our judgment. And it seems like a waste to kind of put all of our legal knowledge in our back pocket and lead with something that we weren’t necessarily trained in. But if we want to do what’s best for our clients and ultimately get what we want out of the case, sometimes we need to do that in order to be more persuasive.
Jim Hacking
We’re speaking with Kwame Christian, he’s an attorney in Columbus, Ohio, an expert in negotiation. Kwame, there’s a an attorney here in town who’s very highly regarded. His name is Maurice Graham, and one of his associates told me a great story about Mr. Graham, Mr. Graham, had an attorney on the other side who would never say something nice to him. He fought about everything, he drove him crazy, he just would fight him on every turn. And Mr. Graham’s been practicing a really long time. And so they’ve been in depositions for a couple months. And they were right in the heat of everything. And the attorney one day commented that Mr. Graham had a nice shirt. And that he liked Mr. Graham’s shirt, that was the first non negative thing the attorney had ever said to him, Mr. Graham, called the attorneys wife and asked the attorney what his shirt size was. and he ordered him two shirts from that same company, and sent them to that attorney. And I always think of that example, when I’m fighting with other attorneys or when when I get sort of bent out of shape, I know you talked a little bit about the amygdala and about, you know, fear and flight and fight and all that stuff when it comes to our clients. But talk a little bit about the attorneys themselves and sort of what draws us to be in that combative mode and sort of where do you see things headed as far as where lawyers are headed in that kind of
Kwame Christian
space? Yeah, as as far as the future of the profession when it comes to effective conflict management? What I’m hoping what I’m hoping is that we’ll take a more nuanced approach to conflict, because back in the day, we didn’t, we didn’t know these types of things. We were only equipped with a law and our legal skills, and logic. And those are the only tools we have. That’s what those are the only tools we’re going to bring to the discussion. But now that we have a better understanding of how the brain works, I’m hoping that we can take a more nuanced approach because I think it will lead us not only to getting better outcomes for our clients, but also to living with a profession that is a lot less stressful. And first of all, Mr. Graham’s was brilliant because one of the things that is one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal arsenal is called the norm of reciprocity. And so the norm of reciprocity says that whenever you give something to someone, they have this feeling of psychological debt whereby they feel compelled to give you something back. And it could be something pretty substantial or obvious, like the shirts, or it could be something small like listening. If I’m if I give you my ear, if I lend you my ear and actually listen, it increases the likelihood of you been willing to reciprocate. And so just doing those things that are a little bit counterintuitive, giving with the hope of getting or just giving in general, that’s not something that we’re taught in law school, we’re not, we’re told not to give anything. I remember one of my, my Simpro professor, he’s like, if you’re ever in an accident, never apologize, because that could be considered an admission, like, oh, my gosh, what world am I you know, but what we’re finding here, when it comes to psychology, and the way it’s applied to these conflict situations, is a lot of uncommon sense. And the norm of reciprocity, which Mr. Graham used perfectly in this situation is, is one of those days, one of the most popular books on the topic is called Give and Take by Adam Grant. And it talks about how you can either be a giver or a taker, or somebody who plays tit for tat, if you give me something, I’ll give you something back. And essentially what the studies show and what the whole book can be boiled down to is that the people who are givers, the people who are most generous, end up creating the most regard for themselves in the community over time. And that regard is persuasive in and of itself. And if you start to develop a reputation that allows you to have that type of regard, as somebody who is willing to give, people are going to be more willing to work with you.
Tyson Mutrux
You were talking to actually reminded me of the book influenced by Robert shell Dini, he talked a lot about these principles in this book. So I really recommend that as well. So currently, you’re you’re not an old attorney. Right. So most of the mediators I deal with are usually older attorneys that have been doing this for several years. Have you met any resistance because of your age?
Kwame Christian
I have met resistance initially. But that typically goes down. Eventually, as they start to realize that I know what I’m talking about. I remember. I think it was last week, I was in a mediation with an attorney. And I said, I always ask beforehand, before I go into my spiel about mediation and what it is, ask the attorneys have you been in mediation before? And the attorney said, yeah, once I’ve been in mediation before, but it was 35 years ago, you were probably this big. And, you know, it’s, there’s a little bit of, there’s a little bit of hesitation when they see somebody my age doing this, because usually, it’s an old man’s game, and I use that gender specific old man’s game intentionally. But the reality is, after they get into the negotiation, after they get into the mediation, and they see what I have to offer, that concern has been assuaged. And the reason being is that when people ask about age or are concerned about age, it’s not really the fact that they’re concerned about your age, per se. They’re concerned about your competence. They want to make sure that you can do what you’re saying you can do. And typically in my mediations, eventually, people get to the point where they feel comfortable enough with me in the process. And I think that one of the reasons why I’m able to do that so consistently, is because I don’t focus on the law. In these conversations, I let them know that, listen, if we want to talk about the law, we can, you can go to court. That’s what the courts for you believe you have a strong argument, they believe they have a strong argument, let’s talk about the deal. Because if we’re talking about codes, your clients can’t take a code home with them and say, to their family, Hey, I’ve provided you with this code, let’s eat it. No, it doesn’t mean anything to them. What your clients really care about is the deal. They care about the outcome. So we’re here in mediation to try and work that out. And that allows me to keep the conversation on terms that are more favorable to me, because like I said, my background is psychology, my strongest asset is my knowledge of persuasion and deal making, not particularly the law. And so once people are able to get on that, they kind of appreciate it because it allows them to relax, and really talk more about the substance of what are what the clients want, more so than the things that pull us apart.
Jim Hacking
I mean, what’s the toughest negotiation that you’ve had? The
Kwame Christian
toughest one that I’ve had, you know what I was thinking about this this morning, and the been involved in multimillion dollar cases. But and so typically, you would think like those are the cases that would be the most difficult but really, if not, when I’m mediate at the courthouse, I mediate big cases to small cases. And so really, it’s the smaller cases that are a lot tougher. Because the people who are dealing with smaller dollar values, they have so much riding on this. So if I’m dealing with a multimillion dollar case, this is okay, I lost it. That’s unfortunate. Let me go to the next deal for somebody that’s dealing with their livelihood, like rent, like a rent escrow case, where really, it’s only maybe less than $1,000. At Issue, those people are clawing, and scraping because like, if I if this doesn’t go, Well, my family and I are out are out on the streets. Like those are the consequences. Those are the ramifications of failure in this mediation. So those are a lot more difficult to deal with, because the the emotions are significantly higher, because the stakes are higher for those participants. And so I remember in particular one that stands out is one where the the land owner, the property owner, was a 92 year old woman who did not speak English, she spoke a little bit, but not a lot. And the other person was representing his was there on behalf of his family with him, his wife, and three little girls. And so they were having problems with each other. And he was saying he would say that they had these conversations. And then she would say she never had these conversations. And he’s like, Yeah, I had these conversations, she just has a little bit of dementia, and she forgets. And if you know something about people who are older, as you age, your prefrontal cortex, which has executive function starts to deteriorate. It’s the last thing that develops. That’s why the brain we say the brain doesn’t develop until 25. That’s when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed. That’s where logic and reasoning is an executive function, which restrains us from saying things that, that we initially want to say we’re like, oh, I shouldn’t say that. Well, if you’re 92, you’re going to say everything that comes to your mind, and you’re going to say it over and over and over again. And so this was a two hour mediation and this, this lady was just getting furious, just more and more and more upset. And we eventually just had to call the mediation, they weren’t going to get to an agreement. Both sides were highly emotional, because he didn’t want his family to be homeless. And she wanted to get paid. And she felt like she was slighted. That was really difficult. That was really difficult. So honestly, it’s the lower dollar values that provide me with the biggest challenge because the people are less sophisticated, and they have more to lose.
Tyson Mutrux
Me, as Jim said, a lot of our listeners are trial lawyers, he uses the phrase litigators, which I hate. A lot of them are trial lawyers. So they got a natural resistance just to negotiation negotiations, but mediation, ADR, that kind of thing, I would just say, at least as a trial lawyer, myself, just something initially, it’s just, it’s hard for me to get over the fact that I like the idea of being in a courtroom and being you know, the Gladiator, and fighting for my client. What advice do you have for people like me that in? I’m not saying I’m against ADR, I’m not against ADR at all. But what advice do you have for attorneys like me that have sort of that natural resistance where we want to try these cases? What kind of advice do you have for us to ticket events that need to do negotiations more than than we do
Kwame Christian
our trials? Is this this is going to be fun, because in order to answer this, I need to dig deeper into your psyche. So maybe you can help me so I’ll ask a couple questions. So what do you think it is that draws you to the trial that makes it so
Tyson Mutrux
appealing? Oh, yeah, I mean, I love the fight. I shot like the fight. I liked the performance aspect of it. Really, I think a lot of us as trial lawyers, we are acting I mean, we are on stage, we are the performer. So I think, honestly, I think that’s a big part of the other part of it is, is that I will only recommend go and trust, I think it’s actually in their best interest. So that’s a that’s a big part of it as well. Yeah,
Kwame Christian
that makes sense. And it’s tough, that’s tough. Because if the successful outcome and a mediation or the desired outcome in the mediation is a resolution of the case, that takes away the thing that you like the most. So it’s really tough to resolve those two issues. But the thing is, when it comes to mediation, maybe there’s a way that you could still get that performative value, depending on the mediator. Here’s the thing. What we found that when we mediate is that shuttle diplomacy works the best, because when we get two litigators together in a room, most likely you’re going to litigate, you know, it’s going to be become combative. Depending on the mediator, you can you can ask about the different the way that it will work. Of course, if you want to have the opportunity to give opening statements, and maybe the mediator will let you do that. But what we found is that it’s, it makes it less likely for the mediation to to be resolved because people start to get really focused on their positions and not so much on making a deal. It’s tough, man. It’s really tough. And there’s no good answer for why someone who likes to litigate should like mediation, because they’re two separate things. I guess as far as structuring your profession, structuring your career. If you have a partner or work with a firm, maybe good say, All right, let me come in later after the fact, after we’ve exhausted all negotiation and mediation, and that allows me to focus only on what I like to do, which is litigate. I was talking to one of my friends earlier a couple of weeks ago. And he said that when he was negotiating with one of the mega companies are probably top five, like fortune five companies out there, he said that they had one firm that represented them for settlement negotiations and one firm that would represent them in the same case, if it went to litigation. And so it’s almost like the people at that company, recognize that there were two separate skill sets at play when it comes to those those portions of the trial process. And so I guess the best answer would be to try and if you have a team that’s able to do that, focus more on the litigation side and have somebody else focus more on the ADR side. But if you’re a litigator, somebody who’s really sold out on the process and likes to be in trial, and you find yourself in mediation, I think the best thing to do in order to get your mind around the ADR process, and really commit to it in a genuine way, is to focus on what’s best for your clients. Because sometimes what’s best for your client isn’t as good for your pocketbook, or as good for your, your sense of fun. But typically, if you’re able to resolve something in mediation, it means that you’ve come up with an agreement that is favorable, or at least acceptable to your client, so you get a win. And so litigators are about winning, we like that competitive side, if you’re able to get a deal in mediation is essentially a guaranteed win as long as every party complies with the agreed upon settlement.
Jim Hacking
Oh, man, we’re coming up against the end of the time we have for the show. And we want to respect your time, I did want to ask you one question. Talk to us about podcasting, and how that has impacted your practice how that has sort of set you off as an authority and what kind of benefit you feel you’ve gained from podcasting.
Kwame Christian
Yeah, the the podcasting has had a number of surprising benefits. And so you know how the old school way of establishing authority was mainly through publishing, publishing articles, articles that we knew would never be read by anybody, especially not by clients. This podcasting has given me an outlet that allows me to have my nerdy times and share that with people. So my wife is happy, because I’m not talking to her about everything I read, but also has the unintended benefit of establishing myself as an expert in the industry, in beat resolution as a whole. And within the legal profession, it’s given me an opportunity to do a number of CLAS and speaking engagements for attorneys, and for business owners. Actually, I can, I can mention this now, publicly. Finally, I have a TED talk coming up as well TEDx talk on on conflict resolution. And so that’s an opportunity that was that came about because of the podcast, it’s a it’s a surprisingly good resume booster. And the thing is, since people actually listen to podcasts, versus, you know, reading really esoteric articles on legal topics that are obscure to the everyday person, people can actually see your expertise at work in ways that they couldn’t throw an article. So I think that’s one of the surprise benefits. So I’m a big proponent of doing the podcasts. Because when it comes to speaking in public, it’s high level networking, because you get about 3050 to 100. People looking at you seeing you as the expert seeing your personality. And they say, oh, that’s the guy, if I need something, that’s my guy. But then when you think about the podcast, you have this vision of us sitting in your closet, or your office or whatever, finding that quiet space and talking. And it might feel like you’re talking to nobody, but then you go and you look at the statistics. And now I’m at the point where it’s about 2500 downloads per episode, and we have listeners in 140 different countries, that’s exposure that I could never get through an article. And that’s exposure, I could never have gotten through a regular speaking engagement. And so if somebody is interested in starting a podcast, I suggest doing it. And one of the things that I always offer to when I’m on podcast interviews is people can connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m always down to chat, because I know when it comes to mind development, in in law and in podcasting, it’s really my successes, it has to be attributed 100% of my mentors. I like to serve in that role as much as possible. So if anybody out there is interested, feel free to reach out to me connect on LinkedIn, there aren’t that many Kwami Christians out there, so I’m pretty, pretty easy to find.
Tyson Mutrux
I love it and definitely check out qualities podcast. I’ve not failed when I definitely listen to negotiate anything and it’s a really good podcast, so definitely check him out and reach out to him. He’s going to be a valuable resource. And in a few weeks, we’re gonna have an episode about actually podcasting and getting started in pod casting. So whenever that comes out, definitely reach out to call me as well just because he’s doing it as well. So he knows we need to do it before reads our hacks or tips of the week, or remind everyone to go to iTunes, give us a five star review there, or wherever you get your podcast. Again, you know, we don’t charge to this podcast, please go give us five star reviews spread the word. We’re just trying to get the word out there for free resource for attorneys just to help them out just to get things done for him. So Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
Jim Hacking
Really great book right now by a guy named Joe palooza. It’s called Content Inc, how entrepreneurs can use content to build massive audiences and create radically successful businesses. I like it a lot. It’s a lot of the things that we say about you know, building an audience first, and then the the business will come after that. It’s a good book, I recommend that
Tyson Mutrux
and quantity of a seven week course. Yeah, I
Kwame Christian
would say it’s more of a challenge. I’d say whenever you as an attorney wants to say something through a statement that ends in a period or an exclamation point, try to turn that into an open ended question and see if you can guide the other side to where you want to go. Because curiosity is one of the keys to persuasion. And if you can get your point across and by allowing them to come to your conclusion, without you saying it, it makes what you say, or the point you’re trying to get across a lot more powerful, because they feel like they came to it themselves. It’s like Inception. So that’s my challenge, take every statement you want to say and turn it into an open ended question. And developing that habit will help you to become more persuasive in your everyday life. And when it comes to you in your profession as a lawyer, perfect.
Tyson Mutrux
And then I’ve got two books I’m gonna recommend. But I’m also gonna give a tip of the week that ties in the last week, the two books I recommend, sort of tie into our podcast today. And that’s never split the difference by Chris Voss. Now, I would say that all of his concepts don’t necessarily jive with Tommy’s concepts, but there’s a lot of information that you can get from both a big one that would tie into today’s just getting a lot of information from the other side. And I think that that has actually goes to asking those questions as to make as opposed to making statements. So definitely check out that book. And then influenced by Robert Cialdini, it’s really gonna help you with just with the basic concepts of just dealing with another human being a really is a really good book. But my tip of the week is actually it ties into last week. And my tip is this to increase efficiencies in your firm’s sit down. And I’ve talked about this before, but I just want you all to do this exercise this week, sit down and map out your business from point A to point Z, map it out be very, very detailed. And just the only thing to do is look for inefficiencies. Okay, so this exercise is going to help you in two ways. It’s one actually looking at the customer process from start to finish. But it’s also going to help you identify those redundancies, so you can remove those from your firm and make you more efficient. So that’s my tip of the week. Get on it. It’s a good homework assignment. I trust me, it’ll help your firm, exponentially. Kwame, thank you so much for coming on. You’re a great resource. Your podcasts are great. This is a great show. So thank you
Kwame Christian
for coming on. My pleasure. And hey, before I go, I want to give a gift to your audience might have a 10 page 10 or so pages negotiation guide. It’s the ultimate negotiation guide I put together. And so if you go to the website, American negotiation institute.com/guide You can download that free guide and start to use it in your practice. And also shameless plug. Chris Voss was on the on the show last year. And so there was a really fun, fun interview with him talking about hostage negotiation and how you could use those principles in business. So check that one out to
