“The more you build that connection between you and your client when they ARE your client, that’s gonna help you on the long run”
In this episode Jim and Tyson will discuss the importance of following up on clients. Simple tasks that will help you grow your business.
Have a system in place where you can follow up with your clients. Current and prior ones. Educate them to know all your practice areas, and as we always say, be the “hub”, be the one who refers and advises clients.
Stay in front of your clients. Market yourself. Don’t let the client forget you!
Hacking’s Hack: A legal keyboard! Check it out! Specially designed for lawyers!
https://www.legalkeyboards.com/
Found it in: http://www.lawsitesblog.com/2017/01/video-unboxing-using-legalboard.html
Tyson’s Tip: A cool book to read: Sapiens: “A Brief History of Humankind” by Yuval Noah Harari.
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Transcript: Failing to Follow Up = Lost Business
Jim Hacking
they should be thinking about building a relationship and building a connection to those clients, really, almost to the point of friendship. Now, you’re obviously not going to be friends with every single client. But the more you build that connection between you and your client when they are your client, that’s going to help you in the long run. Run your law firm the right way.
Unknown Speaker
This is the maximum lawyer podcast, podcast, your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson metrics. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Jim Hacking
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer podcast. I am Jim hacking.
Tyson Mutrux
I’m Tyson nutrix. Hey, Jimmy, how you doing man?
Jim Hacking
Tyson? I’m excited for us to be recording another episode, it seems like it’s been a while we had a bunch in the can and we’ve depleted our supply. I think we’re down to one left. So it’s time to start recording time to start spreading the message spreading the love here in 2017. We’ve been real happy to have some fantastic guests. But some of my favorite episodes are the ones where it’s just you and me.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, and this is our first episode of VR actually recorded in 2017. The first episode of 2017 was John Fisher, which I thought was a fantastic way to start the new year. But this is the first time we’re recording 2017 We’ve got past the holidays. And I agree with you, I enjoy recording these podcasts with you. We love having guests too. But it’s a lot of fun, because I feel like we can dig a little deeper sometimes whenever it’s just mania. So I think today’s a pretty good episode, I think people are gonna like good takeaways from it.
Jim Hacking
Yeah. And before we get to it, I want to get to one thing now, you and Amy and the kids just got back from Disney World. And I know that when I went to Disney World, the two times we went with the kids, that I spent a lot of time just sort of watching the customer service aspect of things. And I don’t want to put you on the spot. But did you have that sort of mindset going in? Were you observing the ways that the people that work at Disney sort of interacted with you? And can you talk a little bit about that,
Tyson Mutrux
that was the thing I was the most excited about. And the reason why is because since we went to that gkc event with Dan Kennedy, and Dan Kennedy talked about the Disney experience, I’ve been looking forward to it ever since then. And that was two years ago or three years ago, I can’t remember, I focused the entire time on it. And I will tell you, I was a little disappointed because I was told so much about how great it was the customer service was gonna be. In some instances, it was fantastic. In some instances, it was very bad. But I will tell you, I was there during the busiest time of the year, the two busiest days of the year I was there. And I guess I’ll give him a little bit of slack because of that, because I know it was so just jam packed with people. I think that a lot of the employees were really stressed out thing I was the most impressed about. It was just how everything was just systemized. And there was a, just a process for everything. So I was in awe of the process, I wasn’t necessarily in awe of the customer service aspect. But like I said, the days where it was less busy, it was it was far better the days, it was really, really busy. I just think employees were just super stressed. So it was a great time. And either way, I mean, it’s, it’s a great experience. And if you haven’t been to Disney World, I highly recommend it
Jim Hacking
is an interesting proposition, because I think they do have fantastic systems. And that’s sort of one of the things we admire about them. And that we’ve enjoyed, I do think that, you know, systems are tested at their weakest time, and they’re if it’s their busiest time, then I understand why you’re giving them a pass. But I guess they’d be disappointed to hear that. That’s sort of how you felt about it. I think it’s a lesson to to us as lawyers that you know, with everything that we do that we are presenting and putting on a performance and a lot of ways of trying to make our clients satisfied with the results that they get. And you know that there is a little bit of showmanship to it. But if you fall apart at the crucial time, that’s a real problem,
Tyson Mutrux
I’ll give you just one example of the first day is we were first going to the park and I’d never used one of the scanner, so you scan your magic band, and then you put your fingerprint on this little scanner. I didn’t know how to use that. And so I put my magic band in the wrong spot. And the lady literally says to me, what are you doing, just like this route is complete. And that was my first experience entering the park. Right. So that’s the very first person I talked to entering the park. And she was so rude to me. And they kind of started off there. And that kind of colored my perspective for that day. And so I was very surprised by that, because I’d always been told by how friendly they were and how wonderful the staff was and how helpful they were.
Jim Hacking
Wow. I only expect that at Six Flags. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, let’s get to our topic of the day, which is pretty good one. All right. So I had an interesting experience last week that I thought I would share with our listeners. And I thought that it’s instructive for the kinds of things that we talk about, you know, so one of the things that you and I both preach is follow up with clients after they’ve hired us and then after we’re done with their transaction, and I think that a lot of lawyers fall into a bad habit or trap of just looking at the hiring by a client of us as a transaction that has a beginning and an end. And that instead, they should be thinking about building a relationship and building a connection to those clients, really, almost to the point of friendship. Now, you’re obviously not going to be friends with every single client. But the more you build that connection between you and your client, when they are your client, that’s going to help you in the long run. And here’s sort of an example of what happened. So we had a fella come to see us about a month ago, and he decided to hire us to apply for his citizenship. And the first time I met with him, he had sort of a strange story about how he got his green card. And it didn’t really make a lot of sense. He had his green card, so I didn’t really have to worry about it. But when he came back, to actually get started on his case, we sat down and we talked through his case. And it turns out that he was from the former Yugoslavia, and he had come to the United States from over there long ago, and he had received asylum in the United States, but he wasn’t really sure. And he was not a very good explainer or historian as to how he had come to be here. So when we sat down to talk about his whole immigration history, it turns out that he remembered losing his asylum case at the immigration court. And then he remembered later on that they they lost again on paper, that’s the way he explained it to us. And then he told us that one time he and his attorney went downtown to St. Louis. And they sat before three judges. And to me, that can only mean that he had gone to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which I don’t know if you know, this Tyson. But it’s historically one of the most anti immigrant conservative pro government courts of appeals in the country, if not the most, I’ve been tracking immigration cases for quite some time now. And I think they’re on like 270 cases in a row where they’ve ruled in favor of the government and against the immigrant. So I was really surprised to hear him say that he had gone to the panel of the three judges, he actually said four judges, but he meant three. And so I’m sitting there, and I decide to Google his name and immigration, and lo and behold, he has a reported case. And lo and behold, in addition, he and his attorney had won a case at the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which is, as I said, almost unheard of. And not only did they win at the Eighth Circuit, where the Eighth Circuit said that the immigration judge down below had made a mistake. The Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals went ahead and ruled in favor of the immigrant that is they reversed the immigration judge, which you hardly ever see any court of appeals do much less the Eighth Circuit. So I knew his attorney who handled it because he was listed in the opinion. So in every sense of the word, the attorney had gotten a tremendous, tremendous results for this young man
Tyson Mutrux
and amazing job. That’s yeah, absolutely.
Jim Hacking
It’s really a miracle that this fellow was sitting across from me, having gotten his green card four and a half years ago through the legal brilliance of this attorney. And so part of me was like, Dude, why are you sitting across from me? Why are you not talking to your old attorney? Now, in theory, he could maybe owe his old attorney money. So that might be the one reason I could think of, but I don’t think that’s the case. I think that what the situation is, is that the attorney lost contact with this guy. In fact, when we first started talking, believe it or not, this client didn’t remember the name of the attorney who literally saved him from deportation at about the last hour. I mean, the only stop after the circuit, of course, is the Supreme Court, and they take two immigration cases a year. So this was really a remarkable situation. But the attorney while obviously a very intelligent and clever litigator and brief writer, and you know, person arguing cases, it seemed that he had dropped the ball when it came to follow up, in that this person when we first started out, didn’t even remember his name. And so I felt sort of bad for that attorney. And I wanted to make sure that I mentioned it on our podcast so that we could talk about it. And then I knew that this was going to be our topic for today. I was down in immigration yesterday. And I walked out of an interview with a client who has been out of status for a really long time, but who had his entire family get immigration status, and they all have lawful permanent resident status. And he was the last one to go through the process. He just married a US citizen. And so we came out of his interview. And he turned, I turned and I saw that attorney who argued the case of the Eighth Circuit, and he was there. And I said hello to him. And I shook his hand as I always do. And as we’re walking away, my second client turns to me and he says, Yeah, that’s the guy that got our whole family green cars.
Tyson Mutrux
Like what?
Jim Hacking
So here we have concrete proof of the things that we say on this podcast all the time that lawyers can be the best litigators, you know, whatever kind of case or matter type, whatever type of attorney, they can be the absolute best. But if they aren’t following up with their clients, they’re really missing out on an opportunity. So I wanted to tell that story that I thought we could talk about it. Those are both incredible stories. What I’m saying is, is that if he had a system in place, where he consistently kept in contact with prior clients, those clients would have been his for the subsequent immigration matters, not me, you know, in immigration, we have that virtuous cycle where someone comes and gets a visa, and then they get a green card to get lawful permanent resident status, or, and then they get their citizenship, and then they can sponsor other people. And so in my practice area, if you keep in contact with people, that’s a really good thing, because they’re either going to refer you other cases, or they’re going to come back to you for repeat business. And so, you know, I’ve been in that situation before, a long time ago, I went down to immigration, and I saw one of my old clients with another attorney, and it burned my house. And I swore to myself that I was gonna do everything I could that that did not happen again,
Tyson Mutrux
that was a little confused. So these are people me it was his failure, obviously not to follow. These people had just entered your funnel they had not, it’s not like they’ve been in your funnel for a while, though, right? Do you they just come to you? Oh,
Jim Hacking
no, no, these are all people that have hired me in the last two months. Okay, well,
Tyson Mutrux
then let’s talk about this, let’s talk about some of the things that you and I do, as follow up as after care or whatever you want to call it in the after unit, that would keep yourself in front of these people so that they know who you are, I know one of your your main ones are, but I’m gonna let us tell people what you do to stay in front of people. And then I’ll talk about some of the things I do to stay in front of people so that people don’t forget your name.
Jim Hacking
I think the other thing is that you really have to start not in the afternoon, but I think you continue to market to your clients, while you’re representing them, you know, for sure, during that period between when they’ve hired you. And when you’re done with their matter, you know, you are their only lawyer, you are their only point of contact with the legal field, you’re the only person that they’re interacting with. And for me, it’s a year and for you, it’s probably close to a year. So you want to be regularly communicating to them not just about their case, but about what it is that you do so that they understand, you know, all the kinds of things you do. So for instance, in your situation, I could see where someone hires you to do a car accident, they might not necessarily know that you do criminal work, or that you do, what other kinds of lawsuits so that I think that during that time period, that you’re their attorney, that you can be educating them on the kinds of other things that you do in a non salesy way, just sort of an informational way. And then that should just continue after you’re done with them. I think that other things that are important are, you know, really making sure that the people know that you care about them, that you you’re invested in their success, not just in this one little particular matter. I think one really important tip is to, to set it up so that if any kind of legal help, if they think about a lawyer, they call you first. And that they think well, if I need a tax attorney, I know Tyson doesn’t do tax, but he’ll probably be able to help me down the line if I need a tax attorney. So I think that’s really important.
Tyson Mutrux
I think what you’re saying is true. And now since I’ve been getting out of criminal more and more, I don’t really necessarily want my clients to know that. But I know what you’re saying, if you do other practice areas, you want to make sure you educate them very, very early on before Infusionsoft before I had any advanced systems. But very, very, very beginning. What I did was my way of doing that was on my letterhead, I on the side, this really interesting looking letterhead where they had, you know, the address and all that at the top, then that little thing at the bottom and that but on the left side, it says listed my practice areas. And the reason I did that, so that it stood out. Yeah, I mean, you don’t normally see something on the left side of a letterhead. So you saw it. And so i The people did see that it did work. So that’s an idea people could use if you want to let people know about your other practice areas. But really what I do is I try to become that hub, like what you’re talking about. That’s why I do the Monday q&a, people can submit their questions, no matter on any practice area to me, and I’ll find the answer for you. And, you know, give three of the answers every Monday, that’s a way for them to come to me and be that hub, no matter what I can find an attorney for them. And I can give them to my referral partners and refer them out. You definitely want to be that hub. Even if it’s you filtering other cases, it’s still nice for you to be the hub for people to come to. But the other part of it is just staying in front of them. I had a conversation with a really good friend of mine. He’s a criminal defense attorney just yesterday. And it was really interesting that he says he doesn’t send letters to client, and I said, What is it? Yeah, I don’t see I don’t see the point in it. And I said, well, from a marketing standpoint, you should send them letters. Just Just get it stay in front of them. I mean, just we make sure at a minimum if one letter a month goes out to our clients, and that’s at a very minimum, you know, I their automated emails and phone calls and letters that they get on top of that. I mean, we just have a standard one month letter that goes out no matter what an injury stuff that letter is. usually just a medical update letter, give us an update on your treatment status. And they can fill out the form at the bottom sign in check and put an envelope that we get. I mean, that’s something very, very basic, and they get letters on top of that. But on a criminal standpoint, I mean, you can give them the letters that we sent out, we give them what to where, when you go to court, another letter that they get from us is just a copy of the statutes for the charges that they’ve been charged with. Just those are just basic letters that you can send out to clients, do you need to send them? No, I would argue that, from a legal standpoint, it’s probably best for you to send them the statutes that they’re charged with. But 99% of attorneys don’t. But from a marketing standpoint, they appreciate that, they see you, and they’re constantly seeing letters from you. And in their mind, you are their number one case, that’s not that’s not true. But you are constantly in front of them. And that’s what you want to be you don’t want them to forget you. You want them to think, hey, this person is working on my case. They’re, they’re diligently working on my behalf. And and that way, they if they’ve got another case that comes in or if someone asked them, hey, who’s your attorney? Who do you recommend they know who you are. And so there’s plenty of ways that you educate your client throughout the process. And that’s what you should be focused on as educating your client through the entire process.
Jim Hacking
Yeah. And then I think afterwards, you know, the clients are thinking that an attorney is going to do their transaction and move on. And to the extent that you do something after the representation, either a short note, I mean, like months later, like just to make sure that they remember you, you know, every now and then I send emails to past clients that have the potential for other immigration issues down the line, or people that I like and care about, and I just check in on them. And I think that goes a long way.
Tyson Mutrux
You know, today, this is such a timely email actually to talk about. And I had no plans of actually talking about this. So I had coffee with a good friend of mine this morning. And I was telling actually tell him about this email. So after we get done with a case, we put them in a follow up sequence asking for them to give us a review. And I’m gonna read you the email that goes out to them. This is the third email in the sequence. So this means that they’ve ignored the first two emails asking for review. And this is the third email and I’m gonna read her response to me. And so the subject line is, I’m sorry, we didn’t meet your expectations, which definitely grabs their attention, like oh, my gosh, he’s, he’s disappointed, right? And then says, clients name, I’m sorry, we were not able to earn your review, please let me know what we can do to earn your positive review next time. As a thank you for your feedback, I’ll send you a $5 amazon gift card, reply to this email to let us know what we can do better. And then she emails me back and says, and this is not the first, this email works really, really well. She responds, hello, Mr. Meatrix, I apologize, I have yet to rewrite a review, due to a very busy work schedule, I would like you and your staff to know that you went above and beyond my expectations, you made a very stressful situation seemed like an easy process, I would absolutely recommend you to all friends and family members, whoever needed further assistance, your office will be the first place I would call. And then she goes on, it’s a longer email. And she’s hopeful as well, she puts her name at the bottom. That’s just a very simple way of I stayed in front of her and it was automated. That’s that’s the power automation. But I stayed in front of her, that campaign is a three month campaign. So that’s the last email she got from me. But that’s a one, it’s a way to get reviews, positive reviews. But it’s also a way to, for me to stay in front of them. And so I have no doubt in my mind that she’s now one of my raving fans. And so you have to constantly stay in front of especially your raving fans, the raving fans are the ones you want to and that’s the term that Ben Glass uses. Hopefully he has not copyrighted or trademarked that but you want to make sure you have those raving fans, because they’re the ones that get to go out there and refer you cases.
Jim Hacking
I don’t think he came up with raving fans. I think it actually came from Jay Abraham. So. So it’s all good. You know, everyone’s happy to share the love of a good idea. Alright, I think we’ve come to the end of our time. And I also note that the guys across the street are getting ready to cut up the cement again. So we should probably finish up before it gets too loud in here.
Tyson Mutrux
We really talked for a long time, and I did not realize how long we had talked for. So that’s good. Yeah, I think there’s some really good takeaways from this episode.
Jim Hacking
So I got a great hackings hack for you this week. It’s not something that I’ve actually used, but it is something that I think would be helpful for a lot of our listeners. So I came across a new blog through our friendly rosin in the blog is called lost sight si te es bog.com lost sight. It’s by an attorney named Robert Ambrogi. And the other day, he put out a post about a new keyboard. So there’s a new computer keyboard that’s designed just for lawyers. And I’m sure it ties in when you’re working on briefs and things that you’re always struggling to find that Ctrl Alt S to get the section symbol for a statute or paragraph symbol for your briefs or your filings and so this keyboard actually substitutes out your you know, the number pad on the right hand side of the keyboard. It sort of has all the symbols that you need and there’s some some other f1 throughout Have 12 capabilities that allow you to format your briefs there’s a way to bounce back and forth into and out of footnotes really easily. And so it’s called a legal board. And it’s It debuted at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas this week. And if you go to legal keyboards.com, you can get it it costs $65. So I think that for people who have a heavy, brief writing practice, which I do not anymore, thank God. But I think that some people would really enjoy or at least find it to be pretty functional.
Tyson Mutrux
It’s really fun. I I almost use that as my tip of the week. I’ve read that and I don’t know where I saw it. I don’t know if you shared it. I thought I saw it somewhere else. I think it’s really interesting. I think it can be really useful. Do you know if they have a Mac version? Or is it just PC?
Jim Hacking
I’m pretty sure it’s just PC? Okay, well,
Tyson Mutrux
I’ll wait for the Mac version, maybe. But seems like it’s pretty useful. And I mean, the things we need are different than the average consumer, I’d think so. Sounds like it’s a good idea. By the way, before I get my tip, I do want to let you know that I read the Phil Knight book, I thought it was great shoe dogs,
Jim Hacking
wasn’t it a roller coaster no pun intended seeing as you just got back from Disney World, but it wasn’t just up and down, up and down.
Tyson Mutrux
It wasn’t he really just exposes vulnerabilities. And I thought it was a great book. And I wouldn’t really say if people are going to read it that they get a bunch of takeaways on how to run a business. But it shows you that how a business that can start from such a small thing can turn into such a big thing. It’s an inspirational book, I would say more than anything, but I thought was a great book. So I’m glad you share that with me. Sure. I actually read it while I was on vacation. So I appreciate that. But my tip of the week is actually a book that is a little outside the norm, I think but I got it from that book Tools of Titans. And it’s the book sapiens. And it’s a brief history of humankind is he by Yuval Noah Harare, ha ra Ri is a really cool book. It’s a brief history of human gut, it really is starting from the very beginning to where we are now. I don’t know if you’ve read that or not. But I just want to pass it along. I think it’s a really cool book. So not practice wise is really gonna help you out. I don’t know, maybe not. But I think it’s a really cool book to read.
Jim Hacking
I’ve been a little underwhelmed with Tools of Titans, it just seems like a lot of little blurbs and not a lot of substance.
Tyson Mutrux
I agree, what I get out of it are tools that are the tools that they use, and then you have to then go and then look into those tools and see if that you can use them in your practice. So I agree with you. I think that in his introduction, he over sells the book and what it is, the way he sells it. He says that these are the things I’ve learned over the years that have helped me in my life, yada, yada, yada, and not really true. It’s just them. He interviews them and ask them questions, and they give him give some answers. And they put it in the book. That’s about it. So I agree. I kind of I sort of skim it. I don’t really read it in depth. But I thought Sapiens was a book that kept coming up and I wanted to read it. And I think I think it’s a good book too. So that’s why it’s why I wanted to pick that up. And I agree with the Tools of Titans. I wouldn’t give it a really high score. I think if I were to read his book, especially if you compare it against his other books, I mean, it’s no comparison four hour workweek is a far better book. If you’re gonna spend money on a Tim Ferriss book, spend it on four hour workweek and not Tools of Titans. Our buddy,
