Add value to your practice.
In this episode, Tyson and Jim talk about the advantages of internalizing concepts from other industries to make your own practice better.
When you see something in another industry, instead of having a closed mindset,look at it, play around with it and see how you can internalize it and make it something you can use in your own practice.
Learn from other industries, look for ideas to make you practice grow. There are many ways of doing it. Mastermind, Podcasts, Magazines.
Take advantage from actual technologies, social networks, events, webinars, seminars. Improvise, try new things. There’s just an unlimited list of ideas you can get from other industries, and all you have to do is think about how you can apply it to your practice area. If you can, use it. If you can’t, then don’t use it. Simple.
Hacking’s Hack: A website: https://ifttt.com/. You can set up rules and things that happen after certain events. Automate.
Tyson’s Tip: The Ultimate Sales Letter: Attract New Customers. Boost Your Sales. by Dan S. Kennedy (Adams Media; 3 edition (February 20, 2006)).
Basics of how to write a sales letter. You can do it as an email and as an actual letter. Marketing.
The Maximum Lawyer Podcast. Partner up, and maximize your firm.
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Transcript: Learn From Other Industries
Jim Hacking
You’re back on the maximum lawyer podcast Tyson nutrix. How are you, sir?
Tyson Mutrux
Good, Jimmy, you’re on the phone. at my desk, you had to run home, which is kind of funny. Funny story, I had to run home, get some homework for your son, but I’m doing well your day looking up, right?
Jim Hacking
I’m gonna turn it around,
Tyson Mutrux
can you turn around? So today, which I think is a pretty cool topic, it’s I’m gonna let you say it, I’m gonna let you introduce it. Because I think you’re the one that calls people out the most on it, which I love. But gotten introduced what the episode is gonna be about? Well,
Jim Hacking
here’s what I was thinking about for today. So you know, a lot of people that we know a lot of lawyers think that their industry is different than that we are professionals, and that we are sort of above marketing, and that we can’t really learn anything from other industries. And this is a topic that Dan Kennedy talks about a lot how people often say to themselves, well, something that works in that industry isn’t going to work in, in my industry. And they, they think that they are so unique, and so unusual, and so individualized, that nothing they could learn from other industries even exist. So, you know, what am I talking about? I’m talking about, you know, when I see something in another industry, could I, instead of having a closed mindset, saying to myself, Oh, that would never work? Why not look at it, play around with it, and see how I can internalize it, and make it something that I use, in my own practice to either make my practice better or to market my practice better. Or, you know, I walked through the world looking at everything as an opportunity and a chance to improve. And so if I see something, then I’m really going to try to make it my own.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. And it really depends. It doesn’t really matter what, you know, what part of the practice we’re talking about, there’s always gonna be an attorney saying, but you know, but I’m different. My mind is different, like you were saying. And one of the big things that came up when we talked to attorneys is, you know, automation and things like that automation delegation, a big part of his delegation, because attorneys say why can’t delegate that to such and such because only I can do it, which is total bullshit, right? It’s complete bullshit. And I’m happy to say that we can put the explicit on this podcast because it’s so ridiculous that that some attorneys have this ego that they think that someone else can’t do their job. We are easily replaceable, okay, we are. It’s just it’s just the truth of the matter, especially with technology, and also with automation. I had a conversation not too long ago, and I may have mentioned on this podcast, I know I’ve talked about it on another podcast, but he does DWI is primarily DWI. And I told him how he can automate a big part of his practice using a program like Infusionsoft. He doesn’t have to be Infusionsoft. Something as simple as the pleadings that you saw your your interior appearance, your request for discovery, stuff like that your letter letters to the court letters to clients, all that can be automated. And you’re not having to sit down and physically type this this stuff up. And attorneys still do that, which is baffles me these days. And what it’s doing, if you do automate this stuff, is and you do, I guess, think outside the box and not think that being an attorney is different. And you you think like other industries, because other industries are doing this exact same thing. The insurance companies, they automate their letters, they do all the same stuff that you and I are doing with automation. The reason why they do that is because allows them to get other things done. It’s it’s a click of a button, things go out, and it gets done, you’re then have more time to spend on as a business owner marketing or taking care of the business and actually being a better attorney. So I think there’s this idea, at least from the automation delegation standpoint, that you are lessening your brand, when and actually in all truthfulness, you’re improving your brand because you’re being a better attorney, for your clients. And I know that was kind of a rant, but it drives me nuts. Whenever these attorneys tell them say, Oh, but I can’t do it, because I’m different. And I at the last mastermind that you and I put together, we had attorneys, they were always trying to say well, I you know, can’t do it that way because of this or that. And you rightfully called them and he said no, you can do it this way. Or you can do it this way. And the same thing, you know, other industries have the same problems. I mean, there’s there’s some industries, the financial industry that you and I have learned that it’s it’s more difficult to do some things, but it doesn’t mean that We’re that much different, it just means you’ve got to find other ways around it.
Jim Hacking
So two or three years ago, you and I were in a mastermind group and, and in that group, we had a web marketer, a real estate agent, a financial advisor, a chiropractor, what else,
Tyson Mutrux
we had a promotional products company, and a web company. Yeah.
Jim Hacking
And so, you know, you and I were the only lawyers in there. And I think we learned a ton from, you know, we all have the same struggles, we all have payroll, we all have employees, we all have a service that we provide that we need to market, and we all have the need for more clients and for improving our, our procedures. So, you know, you can learn a lot from people who are in industries different than you. And I think this is another area where like podcasts, and just listening to alternative sources of information, you know, I think if you spent all your time living in bar materials, and reading bar publications, and you know, then you’re just going to be a cookie cutter, like everybody else, you’re going to have the same messaging, you’re gonna have the same ads, you’re gonna have, you know, all the same marketing and message and there’s nothing that’s going to distinguish you, I think that you need a little bit of creativity and the best source of creativity is, in fact, by learning from other people.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah, and I think there’s ways of doing that live, you’re not in mastermind groups like you and I are we, I think you and I like to kind of venture out and learn from other industries, which is a good thing. But if you’re not in a position to be able to do that, I’ll tell you one way early on, the way I started to do things is I had subscriptions to Fast Company, Inc, and entrepreneur. And this may be so simple, but it really helped. And I would read those magazines, they never talk about attorneys, they talk about industry trends and things like that. And what I would do is I would go through and I would circle things in the magazines or tab them. And then I would write on the front with a little tidbit was and how it applied in my practice. And so I’d read through these magazines, and as I’d hit something I’d write on the front of the magazine. And then I write it down in my book of ideas. And just little things like that, which gave me a lot of good ideas that I think that maybe how I first saw Infusionsoft. I didn’t I didn’t use Infusionsoft until after you and I were talking a little bit more about using it. But I think the first time I ever looked into it was whenever I saw it, I think maybe an Ink Magazine or entrepreneur or something like that. And then another way of doing it is I try to stay away from those legal marketing websites and books with two exceptions. That would be John Fisher and Ben Glass. I think they both do an effective job at looking at trends in multiple industries and applying them to the legal industry.
Jim Hacking
Yeah. And that’s the thing that they’re both open to other alternative approaches, and they end they have their own unique message. And I’ve certainly learned a lot from both of them. There’s no doubt about that. Yeah. And
Tyson Mutrux
we’ve sort of talked about this in the past, when we talked about attorney marketing and things like that Ben Glass will even tell you he pushes the limits sometimes. Remember that advertisement he talked about where he he says I can’t say I’m the best or something like that, you know, I’m talking about do you remember what yeah.
Jim Hacking
He does a whole routine. He has a whole presentation that he does about, you know, how he has taken messaging from other industries, and turned it into things. But yeah, he saw an ad. That said basically, legally, we can’t say were the best car company or or dishwashing detergent any any turn that into an ad that said, legally, we can’t say that we’re the best law firm in Virginia. But here’s what others have to say about us. And the reason that and back when he did this, that was when, you know, Seo was different than it is now it was a lot more about keywords. And so to be able to say in an online ad best attorney. Now, you know, the Google bots couldn’t tell the difference between somebody really saying this is the best attorney and you know, someone saying we can’t legally say we’re the best attorney. So when someone typed it into Google, they hit on Ben. So it was it was great. It’s a great ad
Tyson Mutrux
and actually, I mean, I recommend his book. I think he’s got two now I haven’t read the second one is this first one’s really good. And John Fisher, I think John Fisher is really an up and comer. He’s top notch. He I went to his mastermind in Chicago. I think he has a chance of really overtaking Ben Glass in the legal marketing field. I don’t mean he’s not quite to that level yet. I think he had worked a lot with Ben Glass in the past. He’s kind of I don’t know if he’s doing his own thing now. But I know he’s got as he’s doing a bunch of stuff just with him. And gosh, Larry, I can’t think of his last name. Larry boding layer. Yeah, lower layer Bodhi. They’re both they’re both doing a lot together. I think they’re doing a really, really good job and they gave is a plug on their webinar yesterday, which was pretty awesome. So and guess what the webinar ways of thinking outside the box, not thinking that, Oh, we’re different. We can’t do it. Things like webinars. I mean, I think John does things like that for his clients. I mean, how many attorneys do you know that actually do a webinar? You did something really interesting yesterday, which was sort of shocking to me. But I think it’s a really, it’s a cool idea. It’s the Facebook group. Do you wanna talk about that?
Jim Hacking
So I’m in I’m in a couple of Facebook groups that I got a lot out of one is a Facebook group of cool immigration lawyers. That’s actually the name of it. And it’s, there’s about 2000 attorneys, and it’s all people that practice immigration law. No, no government and attorneys are in there. And, and I’ve gotten a lot of value out of that. And then I’m also in Greg Jenkins, monkeypod, marketing, closed group for how to use Infusionsoft. And so I have had a real, a lot of value from the Facebook group. So I thought, well, you know, I have a lot of clients who have a lot of questions about immigration, and that I have people that even like to learn about immigration, and I thought that it’d be a good idea to put together our own little closed Facebook group, I have no idea what we’re going to do with it. But I just sent out a little email to some of the clients and said, Hey, we’re putting together this group, would you be interested in joining us to talk about immigration, and you know, because a lot of the people have common problems, common struggles, they have a common foe in USCIS. And so I just thought it’d be good way for people to vent, and the clients have really responded well to it. And there’s some non clients in there too. And I think eventually we’ll open it up. But that’s sort of a way to talk to people in a more conversational way. Then a, you know, such a great immigration attorney, or I’m such a great attorney, look at me, well, you’re on where
Tyson Mutrux
you’re adding value. And I’m sorry to cut you off. But you just want the things where we talked about yesterday, you’re you’re adding a value that they don’t they’re not getting from another attorney, you’re completely differentiating yourself from other immigration attorneys.
Jim Hacking
Yeah. And, you know, Facebook is where everybody is right now. So I think we as lawyers have an obligation to be where the people are, I think it’s just sort of common sense.
Tyson Mutrux
This reminds me because I mentioned yesterday to you via text, the Disney realities that Dan Kennedy talks about one of these days, I’m gonna have a podcast about the Disney realities, because how cool it is. And I think you are doing a very effective job of doing that. And this does definitely relate to this podcast, because you’re not saying oh, well, I’m different. I’m an attorney, you’re adopting a lot of stuff, which I think is cool. It’s just this added value that your clients are getting, they may have a question, and it may not be the easiest thing to just, you know, lift up the phone and call you because they may not get you. Hey, post a question on Facebook, maybe someone else in the group has had the same question. And you let the community answer the question, which I think is a really cool idea. I might and I had my reservations about it, just because you lose a little bit, you actually lose a lot of control with that. However, you’re not worried about that. So that’s no big deal for you.
Jim Hacking
Well, I mean, I think that, you know, I don’t necessarily want clients giving legal advice to other clients. But you know, like, I have a client who is sort of an older guy who I really like I’m very fond of. And he’s, he’s pretty much done with the process. And he was very frustrated, and bringing his wife here from the Caribbean. And, you know, he has a lot to say about how he feels he was mistreated by USCIS, and elsewhere. So I just thought that this would be a good chance for him to tell people because he’s, he’s already posted in the group and said, you know, this is a frustrating process. But at the end of the day, my wife is here, and my son is here. And I’m really happy. And so, you know, it’s a chance for people to vent not necessarily at me, but with people who are going through because there’s an emotional side to what we do, there’s an emotional side for people that go through a car accident, or go through physical therapy to get better from an accident, or people who incur big medical debts, you know, so there’s a lot of sharing that I think that sort of outside quote, unquote, the law, and I know that there’ll be characters in the Facebook group, you know, a lot of our clients have a lot of personality. And I can already tell that, you know, there’s going to be people that share more. And you know, it was interesting, I have a client who I had no idea was a social worker. And she’s, she’s all excited about the group and she posted and, and I only knew she was a social worker, because it’s in her profile on her Facebook page. So I think I think we’re just scratching the surface of how we’re going to be able to use this thing.
Tyson Mutrux
It’s cool idea. As usual, I’m gonna let you test it out as it goes, and then if it works, and topped it. Yeah, but
Jim Hacking
that’s just that’s just, uh, you know, I do have one client who respectfully declined to be in the group. And I think the reason for that is that he’s sort of he’s dealing with immigration because he’s dealing with a pending sex charge in the county. And so I think that You know, I think that you know, some of the DUI clients that you have or criminal clients, they’re probably not going to be want to be hanging out on Facebook saying, Oh Tyson’s, it really helped me out on this public masturbation charge. So, you know, well, I
Tyson Mutrux
think if I were to do it, I don’t think I would do it for criminal defense, I think it would be primarily with personal injury. And I think that that’s a good you, you’ve hit on something that made me think about, you know, because it, one of the biggest things I hear from clients about is just there is a psychological impact from an auto accident, and one that was talked about how loud it is, and how whenever they get in the car, the next time, it’s kind of a, it can be traumatic, sometimes worse than others. And so I don’t know, something like that may be easier for people to talk about on the group, I am a little bit concerned about just waiving certain attorney client privilege stuff, we’re worried about, you know, having stuff being discoverable and all that. So I don’t know, I think as long as you put certain rules on it, I think you’ll work just fine. I will say I think if as long as it’s more general and not specific about this specific case, and I think that you’re I think it’s I think it’s a great idea, then to work out, although I was a little worried at first.
Jim Hacking
But so again, that’s an example of, you know, taking something from other industries and things that we liked. And, you know, Facebook groups can be a powerful tool, you know, I mean, there are all kinds of chat boards across the internet, where people ask immigration questions and talk back and forth. And I just think this is just sort of moving that into Facebook.
Tyson Mutrux
Yeah. And I mean, I wish I had this in front of me, I actually create a list of products that I use as an attorney. And there’s a bunch of them, and I bet you have probably half of the ones that I have or price, same ones you use. And so maybe we can share that on the website, because I think it’s pretty cool. Because most of them I got were from other industries. So it’s just neat to because of like things like Ink Magazine. I mean, I started using Slack attorneys and attorneys in St. Louis, at least I know aren’t using slack, they’re always asking you, you know how to use Slack, how to use Slack. I get that from Ink Magazine, from other industries, other other industries, primarily tech, the tech industry is using slack to communicate with with each other. The idea of virtual assistants. I didn’t get that from the attorney in the industry of the legal field. It’s from other industries, they use virtual assistants. So there is just an unlimited list of ideas you can get from other industries in all you have to do is think about how do I apply it to my practice area, that’s how you think. And if you if you can then use it, if you can’t, then don’t use it. It’s as simple as that. We’re about 20 minutes, since you want to go ahead and do your hack of the week hack attack.
Jim Hacking
I’m very excited about this week’s hack. And that is a website that’s been around for a while, but I have not used it. And I’ve just started using it on my personal blog, Jim hacking.com. And that is the If This Then That. So you know if this and that is sort of like Zapier where you can set up rules and things that happen after a certain event happens. So for instance, I’m using it now for my personal blog. So historically, the what I’ve done is when I’m done writing my blog post, I put it into WordPress, and then I publish it. And then I get the link and I posted manually on Facebook, I post it manually on Twitter, and I post it manually on LinkedIn. And if this and that’s going to automate all that, so it’ll cut out, you know, five or 10 minutes of my day each day. So over time, that’ll add up and I’m really excited about it.
Tyson Mutrux
Very nice, very valuable thing. So my Tyson’s Tip of the Week is you like this one, I think I think you have this one, the Ultimate Sales Letter. Since we mentioned Dan Kennedy, I’m gonna make sure I plug him the Ultimate Sales Letter. This is kind of breaking things down to the basics on how to write a sales letter. And for those of you that don’t know what a sales letter is, well, I would say it’s not really a letter, you can do them as letters. It’s also it’s copy. I’ve got a website DWI website, that’s basically a form letter or not form letter, but a sales letter. So you can do as an email you can do as actual letter I’ve done direct mail. You’ve never done a direct mail, have you? I’ve not okay, so sales letters. It’s and he’s Dan Kenny’s on more on long form than on short form. Although short form can be effective, in particular, when it comes to the nine word email that you’ve talked about. But it’s just a really good letter on how to write copy, I’d say is that is that the best way you put it?
Jim Hacking
Well, anybody who’s serious about learning about how to market and how to message and how to tell the public about what it is that you do has to read Dan Kennedy, I remember seeing his books and thinking they look very strange, and he’s very opinionated. But he has this whole no BS series he calls it where he just sort of holds forth on what he thinks about traditional marketing and branding. And basically, he’s against all that and a lot of what I’ve learned about content marketing has come from from Dan Kennedy. So yeah, that’s it’s a great book.
Tyson Mutrux
He’s a legend in the Indus St. He really is speak to in direct response marketing his. If you are a manager of people I recommend his management book. It’s about managing employees. It is hard core talking har is no BS for sure. So but that’s not my my tip of the week is the ultimate sales letter.
Jim Hacking
Yeah, I think that’s the book that gets most people connected to Dan Kennedy. I think that’s his most popular book, but the whole all the books are really really good.
