Those Who Work Hard & Dream Big Can Accomplish Anything with Dawn Smith

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

Are you looking to scale your law firm? In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, hosts Jim Hacking and Tyson Mutrux engage in a conversation with Dawn Smith, a managing partner at a law firm specializing in nursing home litigation. Dawn shares her unconventional journey to becoming a lawyer and some of the things she has learned.

Dawn provides some insights on her learnings when she scaled her law firm. One of these learnings was the importance of having defined written processes. Hiring new attorneys means different perspectives and ways of doing things. Without a defined process, it is easy for things to get out of hand and for attorneys to handle things their own way that don't align with the vision of the firm. Some simple processes that should be outlined are how demand letters are written and how mediation sessions are handled.

Since practicing law can have an emotional toll, Dawn speaks to the importance of supporting staff when handling tough cases. It is crucial to have open dialogue with those who are hearing horrific cases over and over. Building a culture of openness within a firm is key to making sure the mental health of staff is always prioritized and people are not negatively affected.

Take a listen!

Jim's Hack: Read the book “The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership” which talks about taking radical responsibility and learning through curiosity. 

Dawn’s Tip: Choose one area of law and niche down. Be a specialist because it makes a difference in the work you do.

Tyson's Tip: Use a resource that allows you to negotiate through tips and tricks.

Episode Highlights:

• 02:15 From bartender, to forming her own firm specializing in nursing home litigation
• 04:33 How the firm expanded its practice to multiple states
• 06:35 Importance of written processes 
• 08:39 Handling emotional aspects of tough cases 
• 10:04 Having a positive mindset, the importance of support networks, and the belief in hard work and achieving ambitious goals!
• 13:03 The firm's marketing approach and obtaining success stories from clients
• 14:55 Navigating the challenges of partnership in a law firm

Connect with Dawn:

• Email [email protected]
• Website https://fightingelderabuse.com/
• Instagram: @smithclinesmithllp
• Facebook: @smithclinesmithllp
• LinkedIn: @smithclinesmithllp
• Twitter: @smithclinellp
• TikTok: @smithclinesmithllp
• YouTube: @smithclinesmithllp
• Instagram: @dawnsmithlaw
• LinkedIn: @dawnsmith

Resources:

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Transcripts: Those Who Work Hard & Dream Big Can Accomplish Anything with Dawn Smith

Jim (00:00.75)
Welcome back to the Maximum Lawyer Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking.

Tyson (00:04.069)
and I'm Tyson Mutrix, what's up Jimbo!

Jim (00:07.438)
Well, I'm very happy that we actually got delayed a couple minutes to record the episode because the lawn guys showed up and they were weed whacking and lawn mowing and it would have been like the old days when we first started recording, it would have been loud as a racket.

Tyson (00:20.997)
Arlon guys are outside right now too. And it also allowed me enough time to run home, drop off, because we were down to one vehicle because we're still waiting on my truck to be delivered. And I went and got my motorcycle so Amy could have the Jeep. So it worked out perfectly. So the slight 15 minute delay gave me enough time to do all that. So I actually appreciate it. But we do have a guest. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was very, very great.

Dawn Smith (00:43.884)
I'm glad I could help.

Tyson (00:48.198)
And that is our guest. Our guest is Dawn Smith. And I'll do a quick little bio, but we'll get into some more of the details in a moment. But Dawn grew up in Tucson, Arizona, guided by a strong single mom and supportive grandparents. She learned early on that hard work and ambitious goals were expected in her family. And she was always encouraged that she could achieve anything she believed. An eighth grade visit to the US Supreme Court ignited her passion for driving positive change through the law.

as she watched the lawyer's skillful and relenting arguments rise upward toward the nine justices. She realized then one person could make a lasting impact on many through a powerful argument in one case. I am gonna stop there and just welcome you to the show, Don, because we'll get into more of this in a little bit. Don, welcome to the show.

Dawn Smith (01:37.356)
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Jim (01:41.614)
That's awesome. I would love to have been to the Supreme Court, I hope one day to get there. I am admitted, but I've never had a case there. I've never seen an argument. I bet that's great. But let's go back after you've made that decision, sort of undergrad, law school, what were you thinking? And then what have you been doing since law school, Don?

Dawn Smith (01:59.148)
So, I mean, I wanted to be a lawyer really for a long time and kind of had a roundabout path to get there. I actually started college and didn't do great and needed to kind of find myself, I think, a little bit. So I was bartender and waited tables for a while and then finally I was like, okay, I can't wait any longer. Went back to school, graduated, graduated law school and then became licensed in California.

worked for a plaintiff's firm in California for about 10 years, then moved back to Dallas, did some asbestos work, some pretty great experience there, handled about a docket of over 500 cases there, got some good verdicts, and then formed my firm with my partner Curtis Kleinsmith, and we've been together since about 2012. So now we're a…

We decided to niche down and we're doing exclusively nursing home litigation nationwide. We're in 19 states, 20 states actually, and just really trying to make a difference in this area of law.

Tyson (03:07.43)
So Don, what is your role in the law firm? Because sometimes you'll have people that are managing partners. Some people are doing more of the legal work. Where do you fit in all of that?

Dawn Smith (03:18.284)
So I'm managing partner and I do, but I do more of the legal work. So Curtis really handles the business side of it. That's really his passion. Litigation is my passion. So that's how we kind of cross over. And we did a bunch of personality testing within the last five years and found out that we both are very similar. I think he knew that we were similar. I was like, I'm not like you at all, but apparently I am.

So trying to make sure we have those diverse roles really helps quite a bit. So I'm the one that's kind of out and about making sure that all of our associates are handling the dockets the way they should, arguing motions across the country, trying the cases, and he's making sure everything's working, all of the nuts and bolts are in place, and we're moving the cases in the best way for our clients.

Jim (04:09.934)
That's awesome. It's good to have a partner. It's good to have someone to bounce things off of and to sort of fill in the things you don't like doing. My partner here, Tyson, he has a goal, I think, of having offices in lots of different states. Can you talk to us about practicing in those various 20 states and how you've managed to pull that off?

Dawn Smith (04:31.052)
Yeah, I think really COVID was a game changer for that. Really allowed us to be more efficient when it comes to having a practice nationwide. But really when we were doing asbestos work together, we had cases all over the country and we were just sitting having and we had two firms. Curtis and I had a firm together and we had a partner before we had.

our firm together and then he had his practice that was devoted to only Texas cases. He handled nursing home abuse and he had a general PI practice and then we had kind of this mass torts practice together. So we were practicing in many different states with that mass torts, asbestos practice and we were sitting at lunch one day and I just, I asked him, I said, you know, why don't we do nursing home abuse nationwide? I mean, why, how about that? And we just kind of both sat back and said,

Maybe we can do that. And initially, I'm licensed in California and Texas. He's licensed in Texas. We had an associate working for us that was licensed in three states. And then we worked with local counsel. So we pro hoc VJ, file a motion to appear in each case as those cases came up. Now we have lawyers that are licensed in 16 of the states that we're practicing in. And then we have local counsel.

on those other states that we don't. And I think making sure that you have processes in place and doing one area of practice makes it a lot easier to scale across the country because there's so many things that dovetail into those jurisdictions. Of course, there are nuances, there are differences, but the basics behind working up one of these cases are the same. So it's just a matter of having kind of that structure so that you can start in those states.

Tyson (06:24.55)
So I want you to think back to when you first started this plan, what are some of the things that you wish you would have known back then that you know now that would have maybe helped the expansion go a little smoother?

Dawn Smith (06:41.996)
So I think when we first started, we didn't realize the importance of processes, actually written processes, because you get lawyers that are strong personalities that want to do things their own way. And that's good to a certain extent, but you're not rowing the same direction. There aren't efficiencies. There aren't economies of scale. So.

Initially, we kind of started growing. I think we grew a little bit too quickly without having those written processes in place, you know, establishing a pre -litigation department and an administration department, having litigation dockets segregated in a certain way, making sure that everybody knew how we wanted demand letters written, how we wanted mediations conducted, how we wanted briefs written. We didn't have all that. We just kind of went, we're going to do a national practice. And we kind of jumped in there.

and then reeled it back a little bit and started those processes. Traction's a great book. I'm sure y 'all know Traction by Geno Wickman. I think that's an amazing book that really helps when it comes to thinking about the business component and how important those processes are and then getting the leadership team to buy into those processes. That was challenging initially too. So if I was gonna do it all over again, which, you know, hindsight's 20 -20 of course.

Sometimes you just have to start, figure out the best way as you go along, and then you have to adapt. You have to adapt when things aren't working, and you have to lean into things when they are.

Jim (08:19.854)
Don, one of the things we've been talking about at our firm is, you know, we have a lot of asylum cases and a lot of our clients have been through a lot of trauma and had, and then when our paralegals are working on those cases, they too have sort of at least hard emotions to process when handling these tough cases. I would imagine in nursing home litigation, you see some things and your team sees some things that are appalling and disgusting and sad and upsetting.

How do you and your team handle the emotional part of a tough litigation area?

Dawn Smith (08:56.908)
I love that question and it's so timely today. I mean, secondary trauma is real.

Right. I mean, it's, it absolutely impacts people when you're hearing these stories. And my daughter's home from college and she's interning for us. And she started in the intake department today and she, she did her first intake and she's a empathetic person. She is a smart person. But when I was talking to her about it, it's a horrific case, tons of really serious pressure wounds all the way down to the bone. And she said she cried a couple of times, our client cried a couple of times.

of times on the phone and I said, well, how did you feel about that? She said, you know, it was really hard, mom. And we actually have a social worker that we make available to our staff and also our clients if they need to talk about anything. But I think just having that open dialogue with our staff and understanding that that is secondary trauma when they're listening to these things over and over again so that they can process it, it's really important.

we do hear some horrific things and our clients are just going through some of the worst times in their lives. And we have to really empathize with that, understand that, let them communicate about it and really be their ally and anchor through the process.

Tyson (10:24.388)
I want to stay with mindset a little bit, but shift it a little bit. In the bio, it's very positive. Your bio is very, very positive. You talk about hard work and everything. And you also say something in the questionnaire and it's, if listeners only learn one thing from your interview, what would you want it to be? And you said, those who work hard and dream big can't accomplish anything. And I love it. I have the same mindset that you do.

But I can tell you there's a lot of people that don't. There's a lot of people that don't have that mindset. So tell them how they're wrong. Because I agree with you. But I want you to talk about that a little bit because I think it's great. It seems like it comes a lot from your family, but where does it come from? And I guess how could you help change people's minds that don't quite have that mindset?

Dawn Smith (11:02.716)
I'm gonna go.

Dawn Smith (11:19.564)
I don't know if that's possible, you know, actually Tyson, I mean, I think that it's something that you either just have as your overall outlook. I mean, I think that there are certain people that are very positive in their outlook about the world and then people that aren't.

And how do we get there? You know, certainly it's how we're raised and our morals and values that our family taught us. But I don't know. I just I think that having a really good support network and being built up as you're growing up is so important, right? So those of us that have kids, it's so important to tell them all the good things they're doing, of course, help them and, you know, tell them when they're doing something wrong, there are consequences. But just having

that belief in yourself that things are going to be hard. You're going to have challenges, but it's just a day or a week or a month. It's going to change and it might not change for the better, but it's going to change so that you can adapt. And I think just going through certain traumas as you're growing up, you either have to take them on and say, okay, that happened and look at how is this going to impact me for the good?

How am I going to use this to learn and grow? It's all about really learning and growing, I think, because if we're not learning and growing, then what are we here for? You know, I mean, I hope I'm getting better every day. I'm at a conference right now, learning from a bunch of trial lawyers, hoping I'm going to do a better job next time I try a case. It's just, you got to keep learning and growing. And it's just an integral belief. And I don't know if I could change somebody's mind about that. I think just by being positive, hopefully,

that helps others around me.

Jim (13:08.814)
That's awesome. I love the mindset. And I think Tyson's right. A lot of people don't necessarily follow that. Let's talk a little bit about marketing. So Tyson and I did a hypothetical the other day where we decided we were going to make up a fake law from doing elder law. And I brought up the issue for elder law. Do you market to the seniors themselves or do you market to their kids? So I wonder in nursing home litigation, the same thing. And then also, can you, is it hard for you to get success stories from your clients just because the cases are so upsetting?

Dawn Smith (13:37.324)
So, most of our cases are referrals. The majority of our cases are referrals, but our clients and our marketing, all of our, just our campaigns that we put out there, really targeted to people that have parents or loved ones that are in nursing homes.

people that are dealing with having to make those difficult choices about finding a nursing home and or picking an assisted living facility or a group home or whatever you're trying to find. So I think those, that's the demographic that we're talking to. And then, you know what, Jim, I forgot your second part of your question.

Jim (14:20.366)
Success stories. Is it hard to get success stories?

Dawn Smith (14:22.412)
success stories. So Google reviews, you know, are so important.

I think we get a lot of clients, especially through the intake, when we're bringing on the case and then also when we're closing out the case that have great things to say about their experience. I don't think it's difficult, but it's certainly not the injured party most of the time, unfortunately, that can give us that success story. It's the surviving child most of the time that's really giving us that feedback.

Tyson (14:59.143)
So, I want to ask you something. I don't know how you're going to answer it. I'm very curious. It might be a tricky one to navigate, but I don't know. So I've had a former partner. Jim's had former partners before. We've seen many law firms have partners that have split up. And I think a lot of it comes down to money and ego. And so it's something that's very, very difficult to navigate, especially in the PI spaces. And whenever you have…

significant amounts of money coming through. Sometimes you'll have a trial lawyer that's trying cases and sometimes you'll have someone that's managing the firm. And so that can make it very, very difficult. How have you been able to navigate that? Because that's real. It's a really tough thing in the PI space.

Dawn Smith (15:46.124)
So my partner, I think you gotta be friends first. I really, I think a lot of people come together and they're like, you know, this just makes sense. You do this, I do that. Let's just partner up. And maybe you know them a little bit, but.

I think that you really have to be friends with your partner first or at least be on a be start the relationship in a way that you know them quite a bit. Like you really need to I think know them pretty well before you decide you're going to get into this relationship with them because it's like a marriage. It really is. I mean there are going to be good things that happen. There's going to be bad things. You're going to have to navigate all kinds of different challenges. And if you don't have a person that

you know is going to react a certain way that's at least predictable and that is a good person that you know is going to be making good decisions for the firm then you just don't want to be partners with them and certainly there's conflicts that happen but I think as long as you have kind of that base understanding of who that other person is I mean Curtis and I have known each other for over 20 years I met him at a function for a judge like a fundraising thing when I was still in undergrad.

and he offered me a job that he had no right to offer because he was working for somebody else. And then he basically became my mentor, wrote me a letter of recommendation to get into law school, and then I kept in contact with him the whole time. You know, I talked to him probably quarterly the whole time I was in California, practicing in California. So when this opportunity came about to come together and he's kind of the business guy, I think you have to have different skill sets too. That's really important. I think it'd be really difficult.

to go and be partners with somebody if you didn't have those different skill sets. So he's more of the business guy, I'm more of the litigator. So it works with us, but you definitely have to know that person before you form a partnership with them, I think, at least in this area, because what we do is so human.

Dawn Smith (17:51.98)
It's not just pushing pencils or paper. There's such a huge human aspect to what we do.

Jim (18:02.35)
I don't know how you're going about creating content, but as someone who's 53 and whose mom is getting older and who's had a parent in a nursing home, I think if you are creating, I'd love to hear even on this show what your advice is for picking a nursing home and what to look for, what to be aware of. But I think if you're creating content about that, I think you could get a great email list. Cause I think.

people would really want to hear. I think you could talk about horror stories you've seen, you know, telltale signs of a shithole. You know, what are the things, Dawn, that you, and I wonder if anyone would ever let your parents stay in nursing homes.

Dawn Smith (18:44.524)
Right? Well, so, I mean, one of the reasons I'm passionate about what we do is my grandmother lived with us. She moved in with us after my dad passed away. And she helped me.

and my husband raised our two kids. So she lived with us for 16 years, but until she passed. And now my husband's father is living with us. So we have not had to put any of our loved ones in nursing homes, but that's what, you know, I try to talk to our clients. I mean, sometimes you just have to, sometimes they get to a point where you just have to, cause you need help. You can't do it on your own. So we try, I mean,

great, probably the best piece of advice that I could give anybody is if you do have to put your loved one in a nursing home or an assisted living facility, get a camera in there. There are certain laws that apply in different states, but most of the time if you have a camera and you get consent to have it in there, then you can have it in there and have it running all the time and there's some great really low cost options. You know, that's the number one best thing that you can do. And there's so much

much information out there that's available. I mean, Consumer Voice is a great resource when it comes to finding a nursing home and asking questions. There's a whole list of questions on a link and I can send it to you, Jim. I'm happy to send that to you and we've actually done some content on that. What we try to do is answer questions that we would want to know if we were going to put our loved one in a nursing home. So those staffing is the number one most important thing.

to make sure that your loved one's getting the care that they need. You want to make sure that they, you know, there is a five -star rating system with CMS, Medicare. You can just, if you just Google five -star rating Medicare, the Medicare .gov will come up, five -star rating. You type in the name of the facility, you type in your zip code. It's gonna give you star ratings for various aspects, and one is staffing. And that is number one. I mean, you shouldn't put your loved one in any nursing home.

Dawn Smith (20:53.758)
home if it doesn't have a four or five in staffing. That is really what makes the difference, is having enough people. And nursing homes are making a choice. They're choosing to either have adequate staff or make more money. And that's the sad truth of it.

Tyson (21:13.479)
Yeah, I don't know how you do it. Our good buddy, David Terry does nursing home negligence cases and I just, I hear just terrible stories out of nursing homes. So more kudos to you. If I have one, a nursing home case in one of the states you practice in, I'll send it your way. So it's a tough one to do. Absolutely. All right, we are going to wrap things up though, Don.

Dawn Smith (21:30.764)
I love that. Thank you.

Tyson (21:37.991)
It's been great hearing your story and a lot of things about what you do. Before I get to all of that though, if people want to reach out to you and get in touch with you, how do they get in touch with you?

Dawn Smith (21:48.972)
The best way to reach out to us is just email me. You can email me at Dawn, D -A -W -N at FightingElderAbuse .com. That's our URL. We also have We Care, WeCareAtFightingElderAbuse .com. So you can reach out to us either way. Happy to help, happy to… It takes an army to make a big change and the more lawyers that have enough knowledge to do this area of practice, I would just…

really encourage you to do it because there are a lot of cases and so many lawyers only take a small number of cases and it takes an army. So the more people that are fighting against this, the better.

Tyson (22:34.92)
I love it. I love the URL and I also love the, the weak hair. Cause our, our cares team email is weak hair at MF injury .com. So I do like the week care part of it. It's good. Perfect. all right. So let's get to our tips and hacks of the week. for everyone that is listening to this, if you don't mind giving us a five star review, we would greatly appreciate it helps us spread the love. That's the only I'm gonna do today. Jimmy, what is your hack of the week?

Dawn Smith (22:44.588)
I love that. Yeah.

Jim (23:04.59)
Don, thanks so much for joining us. You're definitely one of the good ones in your Fight in the Good Fight. I really appreciate you taking time to come on with us today. So for my hack of the week, Don mentioned the book Traction, and I think Traction is an amazing book. I love it. And I'm reading one now that I think when it comes to leadership might be as transformational long -term for our firm as Traction was. It's called The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership.

Dawn Smith (23:13.516)
Do we lose, Jim?

Jim (23:34.478)
and I'm really, really enjoying it. It's a fantastic book. I don't know how I stumbled upon it. The first two are taking radical responsibility and learning through curiosity. So all 15 are great and I think I needed a little kick in the pants because for each chapter, they talk about being above the line or below the line. And when I say I need a kick in the pants, it's sort of like you're either doing this,

correctly or you're not. And sometimes I get sort of squishy. So to have the, you're either taking responsibility or you're not. You're either learning through curiosity or you're not. So it's, it's an interesting book. It's, it's, it's, it's a different kind of a book. It's, it's a book by people that have consulted with businesses, which is like traction. but they, they don't pull any punches and I've really, really enjoyed it.

Tyson (24:26.886)
Yeah, let's say it's a book from 2015. I can't believe I haven't heard of it either. It's got 1 ,580 ratings and it's 4 .6 out of 5. So very good. And it's 4 .2 on Goodreads, so you can get it for $9 on Kindle or $15 .30 paperback. So there you go. And I've got an audiobook credit, so I can use it. But all right, Don, what is your tip or hack of the week?

Jim (24:36.302)
Yeah, that's good.

Jim (24:43.694)
Nice.

Dawn Smith (24:53.548)
I would say that if you're practicing in an area of law, just consider choosing one that you love.

I think that a lot of lawyers are scared to niche down. I know you guys have. And I think that that makes a really big difference. And it's a scary proposition to think, well, maybe there aren't going to be enough cases. But choose something that you're passionate about. Be a specialist. I think it really makes a difference. I know it's made a difference for our firm. So I would really encourage people to consider that.

Tyson (25:32.645)
Love it. That's good stuff. Perfect. Mine is going to be drastically different from what I normally do, but I just got done negotiating a purchase of a truck. And that's something that affects us as business owners. Sometimes we buy them in the name of the business. But I use this resource called caredge .com. I watched their videos at first, and then I subscribed to their thing. It was like $50 a month. And then you can cancel it when after you buy the vehicle. But…

It allowed me to negotiate so well. I've never, I didn't go to the dealership one time and I got the truck I got is 16 ,000 below MSRP. Got a wonderful deal on the truck and just, it was awesome. And it was because of CarRage .com. So if anyone is in the market for a vehicle, I highly recommend it. They give you a lot of tips. I also had to thank Steven Lefkoff because he gave me some good advice too, but.

A lot of the credit goes to CarG .com. So for anyone interested, check it out. It's remotely related to practicing law in some way. It does affect us. But Don, it's good seeing you. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate you sharing your story and love it. Thank you so much for coming on.

Jim (26:37.358)
Ha!

Dawn Smith (26:48.46)
Thanks for having me, I really enjoyed it. You guys are doing great work, keep it up, I'd love to listen. So have a great rest of your week.

Jim (26:57.07)
Thanks, son. Enjoy your conference.

Tyson (26:57.381)
Thanks, Don.

Dawn Smith (26:59.34)
Thank you.