Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Brita Long. Brita is an attorney and attorney coach who teaches flat fees to other attorneys and more importantly mind set. 

One of the workshops Brita provides is on our relationship with money. "It ain't about the money" isn't about the knowledge of personal finance or small practice finance, but about our thoughts, beliefs and feelings about money and how those affect our behavior. Including: charging flat fees. 
When Brita began working with attorneys she quickly discovered that nearly all of them had money mindset/belief issues that were causing them to self sabotage in regard to money. Take a listen!

Episode Highlights:

  • 04:20 Brita’s mission to maximize attorneys by teaching flat fees and emphasizing personal development and mindset in the legal profession
  • 13:44 Every problem in the office is a leadership problem
  • 19:25 The importance of emotional intelligence in the legal profession
  • 21:59 The impact of money mindset on legal practice
  • 26:26 The financial challenges and self-sabotage tendencies observed in small law firm owners
  • 28:29 Advocating for the adoption of flat feesLearning and Ego in Legal Practice 
  • 32:50 The role of ego in legal practice
  • 41:11 Energy management
  • 49:02 The lack of safety in expressing vulnerability in the legal profession and the potential for limitless reform in the profession

Connect with Brita:

Resources:

Transcripts: Maximizing Your Legal Practice and Personal Development with Brita Long

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maxima Mom with Elise Buey, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship, and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses, and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast! I am so excited to be back today, and I am super excited to welcome Brett along to our podcast. Welcome. Well thank you, thank you. It's afternoon here, but it's good afternoon wherever you are. Yes, indeed. Well, first I always like to just start. I mean, let's just get over the initial part of, you know, it's called the Maximum Mom podcast. So I always like to know who and what makes up your your home, your family. Like, you know what makes you a maximum mom? Well, what makes me a mom? I don't know about maximum mom.

Speaker 2 (00:01:09) - I don't know what that means. My kids are grown, so I have one biological son who is now my law partner, which is a whole different ball of wax. That's been crazy. Um, and then my my two stepsons, they are 30 and 33, so I'm on the tail end of and with the. Hindsight's beautiful. Isn't it? I mean, it is absolutely beautiful still in the midst of those 20s. So, you know, we're still in that, you know how it is. Yeah. But they're coming around in their 20s that you're not so stupid anymore. They've figured out maybe you maybe knew something. Oh, isn't that the most powerful thing when one of them just says, I had one say to me recently, they were like, mom, I really probably should have been listening to you a lot longer. And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me get let me take hold. Can you talk into the can you talk into the phone one more time? So true.

Speaker 2 (00:02:18) - And I have to say, I tend to think the girls tend to listen earlier, which is interesting than the boys. Whereas the boys are like, yeah, mom, I don't know. But then when they come around, they're like, oh, all right, so you did have something to say despite your mom ness. And yeah, it's pretty interesting. But you know, better late than never. I'm a firm believer in people have to figure their own life out, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Start their own, make their own mistakes, do their thing. And I surely don't sit here with I told you so. I'm just like, go do your thing, you know, because how else do you do it? That's the way to do it. I mean, would you really want a kid that was just like, you know, shaking their head, yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, no, there's no way I could have raised a sheep. It would have been an impossibility with my personality.

Speaker 2 (00:03:10) - It just would not have worked well. And how boring. Yeah. Well, yeah. And horrible for them. Like. Right. They need to. Absolutely. Yeah. Go do their own thing. Well I want to let our listeners know what you do. I mean, I think of you and obviously you correct me if you think of you differently. I think of you someone who is really working to maximize attorneys so that they kind of, I don't know, harness the power of flat fees, financial security and ability to have more stability in their practice and really conserve and enjoy their time and energy more utilizing flat fees. What would you say is your mission? Yeah, that's that's part of it. It's definitely partly to teach flat fees. I would say that the bigger overall is personal development and being. I'm not sure that there's a word for it. I'm kind of being the a voice, a voice for some sanity in this profession that I think we have lost sight of tremendously. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:04:20) - And for for people who are fairly courageous in advocating for other people. We don't advocate for ourselves. We don't question what we're doing. And so I work with attorneys, mostly attorneys, um, some other normal people, but mostly attorneys on really creating the life that they want to live. You know, I don't buy this. The law is a jealous mistress. If you want to be an attorney, that means you have to work 80 hours a week. You have to have no relationship that is any real value with your kids, with a spouse. You know, I just don't buy that. And when I see I've been practicing since 1997, when I see attorney after attorney after attorney literally killing themselves or slowly killing themselves with drugs or alcohol or numbing or numbing in any facet, you know, I'm like this. This is not working. Right? Exactly. Clearly what we are doing is not working. And I certainly believe that flat fees can be a big part of that. But when I started teaching flat fees, I very quickly realized that, you know, you don't see your own things.

Speaker 2 (00:05:39) - And so when I started teaching, all these other attorneys started having issues that I hadn't had. And when I really realized so much of it was mindset, and now I say about 1% of flat fees is the knowledge. You know, everybody wants the fee agreement. Forget the fee agreement. That's that's the least of it. Seriously, it's not the knowledge, it's the mindset. It's being willing to feel uncomfortable. It's so much deeper. So then I really started and I had been doing my own personal development work for years. That had changed everything internally and externally in my life. And when you do something like that, you feel it as an obligation to help other people. If they're willing, if they're open, I can't help somebody who's not open to it. Exactly. I mean, it's so the timing of this conversation for us, I cannot even tell you the just, like, weird. Universe timing. Just this morning, I decided to just launch this whole idea of consulting with attorneys because I've been working with attorneys every Friday, I've been setting aside all these Fridays, and I work with attorneys just for free, like helping them, mentoring, whatever you want to call it, what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (00:06:57) - And I've been doing it for months, and my leadership team is like at some point at least this you can't just like keep. I'm like, well, I could keep doing this. And they're like, yeah, but you know, there's issues of money mindset, like how do you have somebody who they have to be brought in as well. And so this whole thing and we're going to talk about that in a minute. But I was talking to somebody this morning and they were just like, yeah, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this. And I'm like, I can never help you. You know, in like, there is no like if you can't consider the possibility that there could be a change in that, the change would come from within you, you know, as the leader, unlike we are kind of, you know, like, I'm not here to be some kind of, like, crazy drill sergeant or whatever. And it's like, you've got to be willing to do the work and do the change and the mindset around this, it it it's everything.

Speaker 2 (00:08:00) - And I, I know I like sound like a broken record to people where I'm like, we've got to work on your mindset way before we figure out, you know, how you're going to hire this next person. Because, you know, we got to look at the whole thing about what you're doing. And I think that that mindset piece is just critical. Oh, it's it's everything. Well, and I would say even more so than mindset is soul set, which is a term my coach and and mentor Phillip McKiernan came up with. So I always want to give credit. I do think, though, that I've it took me a while to to I think I figured it out to figure out why some people were so reluctant, you know, reluctant to do flat fees, reluctant to do what I told them to do. I mean, I've had people spend, you know, I'm not cheap, a lot of money on my work and not do any of it. And I couldn't figure it out.

Speaker 2 (00:09:00) - And then I did. And then I had to look at my own life and went, oh, shit. Right. Sorry, I swear. Um, and I do think that for so many people, you know, this might be offensive, you know? Whatever. A people want. Easy. They want. Easy. And attorneys. We have no problem working hard. But when it comes to. Is self reflection when it comes to lying to ourselves when it comes to being uncomfortable. Oh, we are ridiculously horrible. Horrible. And I think that there are so many people who would rather have failed because they didn't truly try. They didn't play full out. Oh yeah. Then try and have it not work. And then because then something's fundamentally wrong with them. Now that's I think that's a totally false. And I don't think they're aware of this consciously. I think it's a totally false dichotomy because. If you play full out and you continue to play full out, it might not work as you expected, but there's no way that you're going to fail because even at the end of the day, you will at least set.

Speaker 2 (00:10:28) - I gave it everything. I gave it everything and it wasn't meant fine. Failing sometimes is my greatest teacher. Oh, I mean, sometimes it has. Always. Always. When? When I started the happier attorney. I did, you know, what do I know about video courses? I did all these things and I had taken a sabbatical from practice. So, like, all my eggs are in this basket and my ego was in this basket, which is always dangerous. And, um, I've been taught, you know, you open up the course for a week and then you shut it down on Friday and nobody will buy till Friday. So, you know, Monday. And I think I had like 300 people in my Facebook group. So, you know, and they had said, oh, 10% will buy. So I'm like, okay, 30 people will buy. Okay, here we go, here we go. So Monday. Nothing. Tuesday nothing okay. So Friday, Friday.

Speaker 2 (00:11:23) - Guess how many people had bought the course? Friday 5000. So then, like, I'm freaking out. Sure. Freaking out. And then I do the, you know, pity party. What's wrong with me? Nobody. You? No no no no. Why? You know, why can these, you know, 30 year old teachers from Duluth sell their courses to, you know, 30,000 the first day and you know all of the nonsense, okay. And thankfully, I, my mentor, I reached out and he's like, good. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Good. And I you know, I knew what he was going to say. And he said. Why did you need this? And so I asked my clients all of the time. How is this exactly what you needed? And some get really pissed off at first. Oh, yeah, because nobody wants to hear that. Okay. But then it starts to sink in and well, actually, you know, my marketing was crap or that was a crappy client to begin with.

Speaker 2 (00:12:34) - You know, there's always so for me, and I've had some pretty horrible things in my life. I mean, I, I always tell people, we're not in the trauma Olympics, right? Okay. You know, you can always find somebody that's had more trauma than you. That doesn't mean that it didn't. Right? It wasn't bad for you. But every bad thing that has ever happened in my life has been what I needed. Yep. I mean, isn't that powerful though? Like to actually come to that realization. And I know for me, one of the biggest realizations in this whole journey of leading a law firm and, you know, just doing all this is really coming to understand that every single problem in my office is a leadership problem. And I'm like, well, turn that mirror over again, dear, and see what the problem is. But that's pretty empowering, I find, because I can't ever make anybody do anything like, that's not even a thing. I even try anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:13:44) - Whereas when I realize it's a leadership problem and I can turn that mirror on myself, I'm like, I can make a change here. Like I can do something different. It's pretty empowering, you know, where if I'm constantly pointing out the window, we're doomed. I mean, it's exhausting. As someone who has tried most of my life to make that person do there. It's exhausting. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I mean, it doesn't even slightly work in the drama it brings around. Your entire existence is so overwhelmingly exhausting to me. Like, I just I was not a big fan of drama as a young girl, and I'm not a big fan of drama as an old girl. Like, I just am not a not a fan. And so but I mean, it has taken a long time to realize how to eradicate that drama and just like, bring it all down. I said something to somebody the other day, and I mean, they looked at me, but I was like, it's really true.

Speaker 2 (00:14:47) - I said, you know, you cannot operate your firm from your stomach and how it feels. It's got to be operated from data, like you need to be able to make objective decisions. And when people tell me, oh, this is how I feel, I'm like, that's great information. But it's not going to inform any of my decision making. Like we must look at the data. And that has been pretty empowering to to understand, like, you know, how can we move things forward? How can we just be empowered to solve problems? But you know, how many people are addicted to the drama and the chaos? Because and I used to be I didn't know this. I used to be addicted to chaos because a I was very comfortable with it. I knew what to do. Yeah. I mean, that was my superpower, right? That was absolutely my superpower. And I didn't think I was. Worthy I this wasn't conscious, but until it was brought to my attention, I didn't feel I was worthy of just having calm completely.

Speaker 2 (00:15:56) - Yeah. And I see I, I, I just had a conversation with an attorney a couple of weeks ago that, um, I could tell pretty fast this wasn't gonna this wasn't going not only it wasn't going to work with her and I, she was never going to get what she said she wanted, right? Ever. Not with me. Not with any other coach, not with any other program. It wasn't going to happen because the problem was her and she was going to this strategy, this strategy, this strategy, this strategy. And her goal was completely outwardly goals. Right. It wasn't going to happen. And what's sad is even if she met that outward goal, it would be a total crap show. And I can't I can't help that. I can't help people who aren't ready to be open to okay my way. When it was breed away. Things didn't go well in my life. You know that muscling through that, I'm going to think it through. And we attorneys, we have such a we have such a problem because we're smart.

Speaker 2 (00:17:03) - Right. And we've been told how smart we are. I mean, I remember the first day of law school, somebody, some professor saying you're the elite. Then you might call the elite. You're the elite. Like who says that to somebody? But anyway. And so then we think we can. Every solution can be thought through, except that most of our problems are emotional problems. You can never fix an emotional problem with an intellectual solution that doesn't work. How is it working out for you trying to do that? And what's really funny is the, the we attorneys, you know, we don't like to think we're emotional. You know, we're we're robots. We're you know, it's beneath us. We don't make emotional arguments. You know, we're just such little snot sometimes. The people who I have seen say, I'm not emotional. I don't make emotional decisions. Absolutely. When you look at their behavior, they make the most emotional decisions, but we cover it up with logic. Yeah, it's a fascinating it is a fascinating dynamic.

Speaker 2 (00:18:10) - I think lawyers have I mean, I'm coming to really think I mean, this sounds awful, but that law school is doing us such a disservice by not having a total track on emotional intelligence, because we are literally being hired to come into people's lives in all kinds of different ways, be it business, bankruptcy, family, criminal, you know, personal injury, whatever the practice area. But we are coming into people's lives and we are supposed to be collaborating and creatively solving problems. Yet we have, like so much of our profession is. Their level of emotional intelligence is so below the bar of what I think is just average. You know, where it. I feel like we really are missing out on so much nuance in our ability to connect with our clients, with opposing parties, with courts, because of this lack of emotional intelligence and trying to teach it. I know we spend a lot of time in our office teaching emotional intelligence and really talking about it a lot. It doesn't always work.

Speaker 2 (00:19:25) - No. Well, to me, it's fixing your own crap. I mean, I know I took a little hiatus from practicing to write and create the happier attorney. And then when my son got licensed, we opened up this practice. And I don't practice a lot, but I had one case where I had to come in because it was last minute and it was a trial, and it was going to be too much for him to, you know, handle right away how I approach that case, given the internal work that I've done in the last six years. Was night and day different than how I would have seven eight years ago? How I approached opposing counsel who was just one of those. How I approached different things that happened at trial, opposing party. And I was so much calmer. My client was so much calmer. Oh yeah, it was a total night and day difference. And what was great was my client had some issues. And I was more direct with him. I treated him like a coaching client.

Speaker 2 (00:20:32) - Right. And what he does with that is up to him. But it was. It was nice. But you can't. I don't think you can, you know, do that with clients unless you're working on your own crap. You know, you say professors. Holy cow. We could sit here and I. I could go three hours on the scandals. I mean, like news, Google scandals at my law school. And those were the professors. They can't be teaching emotional intelligence when they're on the news with their literal drunken sex scandals. You know, losing bar exams because you're on a cruise with your mistress. Oh, I'm not kidding you. That is a chapter in my you can't make this shit up book. You can't. So maybe maybe the law professors, they don't teach us about emotional intelligence. Maybe we leave that to somebody else. I think it needs to be somewhere, though. It needs to come in to the curriculum. I mean, along with, you know, actually how to run a practice, the business of running a practice, you know, and helping people understand, like, how do you hire, how do you, you know, work with somebody to support them through a problem? How do you terminate if needed? You know, just all of the things like this idea that somehow we're all going into a big law firm.

Speaker 2 (00:21:59) - I mean, the stats just show that to be so far from the truth, right? And oh, and that it's okay if you don't. Number one, that doesn't make you a less attorney. And you also have a right to get paid, even if you're not in a big firm. There's there's an idea. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, don't you think that comes in to the whole money mindset of of what is happening with I mean, I know you've heard it because, I mean, you and I are almost the same age, I think, where when we went through law school, it was this whole, like, everyone should do, you know, this many hours of pro bono work? And I'm like. Um, okay. Well, could we at least, like, make sure we're all, like, getting paid? We're eating, we're paying our student loans. We're making sure our employees are eating and paying their student loans. And it's like, seriously? I mean, the numbers.

Speaker 2 (00:22:54) - I mean, I'm all for pro bono work, don't get me wrong. Like, I mean, if we can make it work and obviously as a firm, we can have policies around what works for us and what fits in who are our situation. But to try to guilt attorneys into like 100 hours a year of pro bono work, I'm like, yeah, and let's get real. So I was, I pro bono queen here in law school. I was the head of the domestic violence pro bono thing, which was a big deal at our law school. And, and, I mean, I, I did all of the things and I was quickly disillusioned. Disillusioned because I got, you know, even in law school, like. Okay, well, we're throwing a little, you know, we're throwing a crumb at this person that's not helping them, right? This person doesn't know what to do here. Telling him to go and fill this out. And okay, that's not helpful. So I'm a big believer in low bono.

Speaker 2 (00:23:53) - I think people have to have skin in the game. Yep. Have to have skin in the game. And I, I spent some time in a third world country as a kid in I mean poverty, the likes of which most people can't even imagine. Okay, so I do. I think I know what I'm talking about here. Even in the most remote village where there's no electricity, there's no running water. Relationships were reciprocal, right? It might not be an equal money value, but let me tell you, you know, nobody was coming to your house for dinner without bringing something, right? It might be, you know, a dead chicken. It might be, you know, some rice. But they were bringing you something, right? That's human nature. And if there's not some reciprocity, it it's a problem. So I'm a low bono person. Um. And do it or don't do it. Not. You know, I'm going to go to a I should be careful. Um, you know, the road to hell is paved with great intention, right? So I think it's important sometimes for us to step back and, you know, instead of giving ourselves a pat on the back and say, oh, I did all this pro bono this year or this, you know, awards, first of all, if you have to get don't even get me started on awards for pro bono and all that nonsense.

Speaker 2 (00:25:14) - But, but. Do it or don't. Exactly. Take a case from start to finish. But going to a clinic and, you know, in a different practice area and giving advice that you don't even know is right. No. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's pretty concerning. Pretty concerning. Anyway, that's my to $0.02. But absolutely, you know, it's I think it's important for us also to look at who's saying that. What position are they in. Because it's really easy to sit there and say you should when you're getting a paycheck every two weeks. Exactly. When you when you have nothing to lose. So and we don't even examine who's saying it. Yeah, I find it a fascinating thing. And I think it just almost encourages what I see to be some of the small law firm owners. I see a lot of self-sabotage in small law firm owners as far as their money goes and their finances. You know, like really just not having a good relationship with money and the whole idea of how can they.

Speaker 2 (00:26:26) - Own the money like and and just not turning it into something. It's not. I mean, I think of money as just almost a tool, you know, like but a lot of people, I think, get wrapped up in all kinds of things. Uh, well, I do a money workshop. Oh, and it's about your relationship with money because it's. And it's called it ain't about the money because it ain't about the money. And, you know, some of us come by this naturally. Some of you know, honestly, some of this, you know, is a lot of childhood stuff. But, yeah, the powers that be in the legal industry do not help. I mean, when you go to CLE after CLE after CLE and they're talking about, oh, if a client complains, refund their money. Pardon, pardon if I've done something wrong. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, and and maybe if it's a business decision. Maybe. But this automatic like are you paying my bills.

Speaker 2 (00:27:24) - Right. You know, unless they did something unethical or, you know, cost benefit, you know, I get it. But then again, you know why? Why is your client and happy but just this automatic, like you don't have a right to make money. The whole reasonable fee. I've been practicing since 1997. I could no more look at another attorney's statement and see if that was reasonable or not. Then I could fly, flap my arms and fly to the moon. Now, if somebody had something that was hourly that was crazy, like, you know. I build two hours to file a notice of appearance or, you know, something, you know, yeah, that's going to get my attention. And I'm going to be like, huh? Tell me about that. Okay. But this idea that you can judge somebody else and is that fee reasonable? I mean, and it's, it's it's so crazy. And the hourly billing is so insane. I remember when one of my first jobs, um, it probably was my first job.

Speaker 2 (00:28:29) - It was at Kmart, remember? Kmart. Oh, yeah. Okay. And this thing, it was dirty. It was even at 16, it felt degrading. You know what one of the worst parts of that job was, was the clocking in and clocking out. The look of this big machine made this big noise. It was so degrading. And I knew that at 16 and here we are, we have doctorate degrees, we do important things, and here we are literally clicking, clocking in and clocking out to get our little money. And I have attorneys going, oh, I don't know, flat fees I don't know. That's dangerous. Oh you can't do that. And family law telling us who've been doing it in family law for, you know, 15 plus years. Oh, oh okay. We'll explain how we're doing it. What we what we're doing is crazy. It's crazy. It's so wild how it is still so. It's so still not mainstream at all. And I mean, we haven't gotten our firm hasn't gotten to a full flat fee model.

Speaker 2 (00:29:31) - I mean, we are working on it and, you know, we're moving over and doing all the things, but people literally will be like, Elise, you realize this isn't going to work at all in family lore. So how how did how did attorneys attorneys have been a turning since well before Christ? Okay, guess when hourly came about? Pretty recently. Pretty freaking recently. Okay. 60, 70 years. So how was it that they charged before all of those thousands of years flat fees? This isn't you know, this isn't rocket science, y'all. This is how we buy everything every single day. Only attorneys are making it over. My job is so stupid. At least. Seriously, my job is so freaking stupid. It is teaching the simplest thing to attorneys. It's okay. You want to buy this calculator? How much do you want to buy? How much are you willing to pay for this calculator? This is what I teach attorneys. The reason that I make good money doing it is because we attorneys overcomplicate and overcomplicate and overcomplicate and overthink and overthink.

Speaker 2 (00:30:49) - Just tell me what you. You want to buy a for a dollar? You want to buy it for five. This is this is how simple it is, right? Well, then I look at the criminal law side because so many criminal attorneys use flat fees and have used them. And that's just been their model kind of forever. You know, and when people want to say, oh, it's impossible and family law and I'm thinking, do you know how many like court hearings, criminal attorneys go to those calendar calls status things like it is a constant. And how are we doing it if it's impossible, how are we all doing it and how have we done it for decades? I could I could sit here and give you a list and list and list I when I was up in Washington before you, I as far as I know, I was the only family law attorney in Washington doing flat fees, right. How did I do it? It's impossible. I'm doing it. I've done it.

Speaker 2 (00:31:39) - That's just fear. That's just. That's just the. I'd rather not try and fail rather than figure it out or admit. Put my ego aside and admit that maybe I, I need help. Yeah, which is reasonable, I think, to get the help and figure out, okay, what can I learn? Somebody said to me the other day and it really just struck me, we pay for consultants and coaches, and the whole reason to do that is to gain their 10,000 and 20,000 hours of expertise and be able to short circuit some of that learning and that failing that, we might do on our own, which would be perfectly normal to happen. But if we can short circuit some of it, great, more power to us. And for somebody to see what we don't see, we don't see our own blind spots. You know, we're sitting there walking around with, you know, toilet paper flowing out of our skirt and we don't see it. And so, yeah, a good coach, a good consultant is going to be like, hey, this is why you're this, this is what you're doing wrong, right? There's the toilet paper.

Speaker 2 (00:32:50) - Here's the toilet paper. But but you got to get your ego out of it. And and what I love is I'll see, you know, in the on the attorney and flat fee group, somebody or lawyers on the beach, somebody will say, oh, I tried flat fees and it was a disaster. Okay. So let me let me get this straight. You tried something that you've never done before where you have no instruction, you have no one showing you how to do it. And it didn't work. And so it doesn't work. Imagine translating that to any other skill. Oh, I tried to make bread today. I didn't look at a recipe. I've never made bread before. I didn't even watch a YouTube video, but I put some water and flour together. And it didn't work. No shit. Right. Exactly. When I think of it like learning, can you imagine learning calculus or, you know, mechanical engineering just being like, yeah, I decided I'm gonna just, like, go out there and, you know, whip up a car, right? It's going to I mean, it takes a little bit of practice.

Speaker 2 (00:33:53) - So you have to know the things, and it still takes practice to get a new skill. But again, you know, let's you got to get the ego out of it. Have you read or, you know, kind of looked into any of the sci Wakeman teachings, like reality based leadership or no ego? Um, she actually, I mean, when you talk about the ego piece, I think you would really enjoy some of her, her books. And I mean, she's, you know, a leader. What's the name? Her name is Sai Sai Wakeman Wakeman. And she has a book, Reality Based Leadership or No Ego. And I mean, the no Ego book is such a powerful read around the drama that's caused by ego and how much emotional waste occurs in businesses due to egos and due to, you know, ego related behaviors and how and it's literally just, um, it's kind of mind boggling to me how powerful it is. We're reading it as a firm. We're doing like a book club.

Speaker 2 (00:35:02) - And it's really interesting, you know, to see how how people react to different things. And, you know, a lot of times you'll have people be like, well, we obviously don't need this. We don't have this problem. And I'm thinking like, I'm like, I think I'm pretty. I've done a lot of work recently, the last six years. I think that, um. I've done very well on my ego, but just this morning at least I had to take my car into service and they gave me a loaner. And, you know, of course they give you a nice brand spanking new. Yeah, a beautiful loaner. You know, they're not stupid. No. And I'm driving this thing. I don't even like it, but I'm like, oh that's pretty. And oh that's 000 my ego's, you know, like, who am I trying to. And then if I can see where people go and you know, before you know it, you've just bought a $70,000 car and that is 100% ego that you back up with.

Speaker 2 (00:36:08) - Well, actually, I do need those side beeper things. It's a safety thing, you understand, in the massage seat. It's not an ego thing, it's a safety. And we do that every single day. All day long. Totally. I mean, I find though, this is I mean, this is one reason, I think when we moved out to the place we live where we're just surrounded by nature and just like, literally like if I have my choice of hopping on my phone and looking at social media or sitting in my hot tub and looking for eagles, I am in the hot tub looking for eagles every single time. Good. Because do you know what I mean? That whole just like, I don't know what it is, but almost got me started on social media. Yeah, the keep up with the Joneses mentality of everything. And I mean, it's something Doug and I are really digging into figuring out. Like, I mean, even in our travel, we're like, how can we only go see nature? Like, how can we make it where we're spending our time in places that are truly bringing us peace, you know, bringing down all stress and all things? I mean, I hate to say like I'm this anti city girl now, but a lot of times I'm, I just, I don't want to get caught up in I mean, we go to Seattle, you know, to spend the night.

Speaker 2 (00:37:33) - We might have things to do and it's immediately this, you know, I mean, you're in a parking lot in our car is, you know, $100,000 less than 100 cars around us. And I'm just like, whoa, we are. And it's kind of wild sometimes when you do this. And I bet you experience when you go, well, you know, I moved from downtown Seattle. You know, where my little house in West Seattle was, overlooking the water overlooking the port and the city and, and very much caught up in the stuff. And I just knew I needed I knew I needed out of that. Right. And I'm in this little town, a little blue collar town in Texas. Not even in, you know, cool. Austin. And it has I'm calmer. That's I am calmer. And then I spend I spent some time in Italy. I'm going back and right. And I do better in small and calm and quiet. And if I need fancy, I can go get fancy.

Speaker 2 (00:38:42) - That's fine. But when you. Nature is very healing. Oh, it's. I did not I truly did not realize at one I didn't realize how much healing that was needed. Like, let's be serious. I mean, right, I think until I went through 2022 and I think when my bookkeeper died in a plane crash that just like absolutely did me in, like I was just, you know, how kind of like you've kept everything a little bit below that surface and you're thinking you're, you know, handling it, you're compartmentalizing it all perfectly, and it's all good. Well, beautiful lies we tell ourselves that definitely bubbled over to a like, oh, okay. That wasn't great. And then you know how that goes once it starts overflowing. You've got, you know, because it wants to come out. So like once there's an opening it's like, oh, we're. Exactly. Count us in that trauma Olympics, though. Yeah. So it was it was kind of a time. But then having this year and making such a concerted effort in 2023 to literally be like, if it is not a peaceful thing, it's not happening.

Speaker 2 (00:39:55) - Like, I mean, just really toning it all down. And it was exceedingly eye opening to realize just how much I mean, just like you're talking about. I didn't even realize I needed to be calmer. Do you know what I and being around nature, it it also puts you in your place a little bit tiny the world and. Yeah. And you really realize, you know, what you thought was a big deal isn't. And life goes on and sometimes it doesn't. You know. Yeah. Being around I mean I didn't think I loved cows going to work and driving by cows almost every day. I don't know why. Don't ask me why, but it just brings me down. Seeing the stars when you can see stars at night, which is something a lot of people literally can't even do, right? Because of all the city lights. You okay? We're here for a little, a little bit. Life's going to go on. Do your best. But really, is this is this that big of a deal? You know, this client not hiring you or, you know, whatever, whatever, right.

Speaker 2 (00:41:11) - Whatever. And it's so many of those like, really? I mean, I said something to somebody the other day, I'm like, is this thing something you're going to even remember five years from now? I'm like, if not, can we just forget about it now rather than actually spending all this time you're about to go ruminate and Lord knows what. And I'm like, let's just let it go right now by oh, it's not even the time. It's the energy. It's the energy vampire of the ruminating and the taking it home with you and, you know, thinking about it, how much that night. And so that's what I do. Well, I love that. And how can people best reach you? Like if somebody wants to find you, they want to work with you. Either be it on the flat fees, the happier attorney, the money mindset work that just general coaching in mindset. How can somebody best reach you? So for flat fees happier attorney com okay or I'm on Facebook just private message me.

Speaker 2 (00:42:11) - Um and for the personal development uh, it's going to be breed along comm. That website is not up yet. Um, and it's just be pretty low income. So just private message me on Facebook. Um, or just Google. Just I'm pretty I'm pretty easy to to find, but and what I would say about the personal development is everybody has their crap. Everybody. Oh, yeah. And the more you're like, I don't want to do that, the more you need to do it. And my my life has just been. I cannot even tell you how my life has been transformed by one person who cared enough about me to say, what if you everything in your life is going to change? If you start being kind to yourself. If you don't, nothing will change. You don't have it because you don't feel worthy of having it. And I didn't understand what he was saying. Pretty, pretty smart guy who has done it. I didn't understand it all, but I trusted him enough to just go, okay, I don't know what that I don't even know what that meant.

Speaker 2 (00:43:29) - Because seriously, I'm like, you don't understand. I'm nice to myself, I get facials. Okay. That's how out of touch I was. I equated facials with being kind to myself, as I'm being a total ass to myself as I was flogging myself and talking to myself like just such shame based at the likes of which I would never speak to another human being right every day. And once I started that journey, then the floodgates opened and I wouldn't go back. I literally when I started this work, I was. If I am in a van down by the river. But I'm doing this work, so be it. So be it, I don't care. I feel the same way about this personal development. I would live in a van down by the river. I would be homeless every day and be who I am now and how I feel about myself now. Then go back to who I was. Six, seven, eight years ago. Now the good thing is the outside things happen along with it.

Speaker 2 (00:44:42) - I don't ever have to make that choice, but I would. It is. It's the best feeling in the world. It's the. It's the feeling. Here's what it is. At least all of the feelings that everybody's chasing. You know, when I make this money, I'll feel better. When I have this in savings. I'll feel better when I marry that person. I'll feel better when I divorce that person. I'll feel better when I am a size four. I'll feel that when I get to, you know, that trip off, all of the things that everybody chases all of the time. They're trying to get the feeling that I've got. But they don't know it. And you can't get the feeling out there with all of the stuff, right? That's not where it is. It's internal and the only way to get it internally. Is to do the work and feel the feelings. You don't want to feel, right? Oh yeah. I mean, feeling those feelings and getting through them.

Speaker 2 (00:45:39) - Well, and I think you hit such a nail on the head when you talk about the core wound part, you know, about feeling worthy and you know whether you feel lovable and you know those types of things and really accepting and understanding where that comes from. And then how can you almost like, retrain yourself, you know, and, and actually be able to create worthiness and love ability and you know, those things inside yourself? Yeah, that's that's it. I mean, that's in an absolute nutshell. And there are a lot of hurt and people out there. Well, and that's the part that just I feel like in our profession it's a higher number than normal. Like, and I don't know if people are just attracted to it to work out their shit or if something happens here or combination. But who acts like that? Well, it's so sad to me. The suicide. We see the drug and alcohol abuse we see. I mean, just. Really anger. Oh such anger. Such anger that we.

Speaker 2 (00:46:52) - That that and the the poor behavior. That we can get away with. I mean, this, this last trial opposing counsel. I mean, he went, you know, there's fair game. Have at it. Freaking have at it. Then there is intentionally trying to humiliate opposing party for the sake of humiliating the opposing party. Right. That has nothing to do with my client. That has to do with you and your insecurity and your shit. And who does that? Who does that? And we can get away with it because I'm just I'm just cross-examining. I'm just zealously advocating for my client. And and, you know, the judges don't do anything. The judges aren't like, hey, knock it off. Nobody does anything about it. So people get away with it, you know? And that tells me everything about that person, right? So yeah, we're pretty unhappy. I mean, I've had two suicide threats on calls when people are calling me about flat fees to learn about my program.

Speaker 2 (00:47:59) - Two suicide threats. Wow. Um, people are hurting. Oh, I think I really think they are. I mean, I just I see a lot of hurt out in our profession, and it truly just. It makes me sad. Like it really makes me sad. I mean, I saw something might have been this morning where somebody was saying that there was a CEO out in the world that literally turned down a remote work request from a mom whose baby was born, and they're in the NICU. And the CEO was like, no, you need to come to the office. And I was like, what? I'm like, where is basic humanity? I mean, the fact that this mom is actually thinking she's working while the child is in the NICU is kind of amazing to me. And I'm like, the thought that you'd be like, no, you can't work from home. You need to be in the office. That's like, what's the matter with people? Yeah, and it's not safe in our profession.

Speaker 2 (00:49:02) - It's not safe to to be vulnerable, to say, I'm really having a hard time. And again, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intention. And now we have these lawyer assistants programs. Would you feel safe going to one of those? I wouldn't I wouldn't feel safe saying, hey, I'm really, you know, having a hard time to the bar. You know, whether it's true or not, they certainly have earned a reputation for eating their young, you know, and and I have a client who has had some mental health issues. They are on her, like where I'm like, okay, has she done anything wrong? No. Right. You're just all up in her business saying she has to be on this drug and this drug and this drug. Oh, because the bar, the bar association should be dictating what drugs you're on. That's a problem for me. That's so. No, it's not safe to, you know, say. Yeah, it's I'm really struggling here.

Speaker 2 (00:49:59) - The reform that could happen in our profession is literally limitless in my mind. Absolutely limitless. And yeah, it's yeah, we could we could have a whole nother conversation about that. Okay. I really, really appreciate your time and being able to speak with you today. I mean, I just I feel like I could talk to you for hours. I. I could. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And we will be. Thank you for your work. Oh, you know, thank you for. I think the more people, you know, start talking about the emperor not having clothes on. The safer it is for everybody to go in. You don't have any clothes on. And what we're doing ain't working, and this is nuts. Yeah, well, I think we have to. I mean, I just I think those of us that have been in this profession long, long. And I've watching it, I don't see a lot of evolution in the timeframe that I have been.

Speaker 2 (00:51:02) - And I think I've been practicing law since 1994. And I'm like, hello? Like, that's a while now. And, um, there's still some of the same struggles. And I'm like, I think it's worse. And that's a problem like that is, can you imagine if you had the same behavior you had in 1994, like, what a mess your life would be right now. Like, I think it's actually worse, actually, to evolve what I see is worse. I see behavior that is absolutely worse than when I started practicing. It's just kind of unbelievable. Well, I do really appreciate your time and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks so much. Bye bye.

Speaker 1 (00:51:47) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast, a production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Sarah Walton. 

Sarah Walton is a business coach and sales expert who’s been featured on The Today Show, speaks at women’s conferences all over the world and has helped hundreds of women start and grow businesses they LOVE. 

From growing up in a low-income household with a single mom to helping moms turn their passion into a business they love that can support their families, Sarah’s lived experience shows how women can powerfully change their lives and the lives of their families and communities. Sarah’s transitioned from being “just another coach” to being a change-maker. It’s time to put more money in the hands of more women, and Sarah is all in.

Take a listen!

Episode Highlights:

  • 06:04 Reframing sales conversations and identifying problems to solve for clients
  • 09:15 The concept of high functioning codependence among women and its impact on financial decisions
  • 14:03 Sarah recommends books, including "Boundary Boss," and emphasizes the importance of doing unsexy tasks for financial success
  • 15:52 Recognizing and addressing high functioning codependence and the physical manifestations of unhappiness
  • 16:05 Encouraging children to do their own chores and the importance of teaching independence from a young age
  • 17:18 Parenting challenges related to children's responsibilities and social media influence
  • 19:12 How high functioning codependency affects physical and mental health, particularly in women
  • 20:08 Strategies for self-awareness, including recognizing internal signals and making different decisions
  • 22:05 Offload tasks and the impact of holding onto tasks for self-image
  • 31:10 Recreating life to move through it with peace, calmness, and hope, and the impact on professional practice
  • 31:27 Shifting mindset to find joy in daily tasks and the impact of a positive mindset on success.
  • 32:18 Exploration of the positive impact women can have with money
  • 34:18 The importance of empowering women with money to bring about positive change and the intertwining of power and money
  • 35:37 Shifting mindset from saving to expanding opportunities and the impact of mindset on financial growth

Connect with Sarah:

Resources:

Transcripts: Breaking Free: Women's Journey to Financial Independence with Sarah Walton

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maxima Mom with Elise Buey, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship, and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses, and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - Come on. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you? I'm wonderful and I'm so happy to be here with you. I'm absolutely thrilled. I am so excited to have you. And you are just one of those people that I just love to talk to because you are super gregarious and friendly, and it just makes this job so much easier when you talk to somebody who is so engaging so well. Well thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:00:58) - You're very kind.

Speaker 2 (00:00:59) - Well, first tell us what you do exactly. I know you are a business coach. You have been on the Today show.

Speaker 2 (00:01:07) - You kind of are the champion of women, you know, really finding their own business and doing things. Let us know, though, what you do. Exactly how would you describe what you do? Oh, I love that. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:01:21) - And it's always funny when someone says that I'm like, who are they talking about? Right? It's like that moment of like, oh wait, that's me. Let's see. So I think if I were to honestly distill it down, I consider it my job to put more money in the hands of more women. That's actually my motto. And the way that I do that is by really breaking down sales. So it becomes an act of service and love and joy. And then I also really do deep dives on our relationship with money. And this matters so much to me because I was raised by a single mom and I was raised incredibly at $0, right? Like zero. And I know what that does to women, and it does not serve our society.

Speaker 3 (00:02:00) - It doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve our psyche, it doesn't serve our children. And it is really, really important to me that we learn how to run our own businesses, if that's what we choose to do, and to do that in a way that is profitable, and to do that in a way that fills our souls, right. They just absolutely lights us up and that that is possible. I've helped women, you know, start businesses where they sew together. People's like their kid soccer jerseys and make quilts. I've helped women who are IVF experts get, you know, I think she has now 350 new babies on the planet. Like, you can really create a business out of anything as long as it's based on your experience, your expertise and your talents. I like to help people package that in such a way that they can make a living that really serves them while they're helping others. That was a long answer to your question.

Speaker 2 (00:02:47) - Yeah, but it was a powerful answer to my short question.

Speaker 2 (00:02:52) - It's my.

Speaker 3 (00:02:52) - Jam. I really it's really important to me.

Speaker 2 (00:02:55) - Yeah, well, I mean, I feel like I have to dive into that. But first let me just I always ask people, just so people know, tell us, who's your family at home? Like we call this the Maximum Mom podcast. So let us know a little bit about that part.

Speaker 3 (00:03:09) - So I have a son here with me. My son and my daughter live with me. My son is right now in the throes of college applications. God help us all. My daughter is she just went to a new high school this year. She's a freshman and we changed high schools. We she didn't go to our town high school. She she is just thriving. She's falling in love with Latin. Who knew? And she's on the high school dance team, which she is just absolutely loving. So that's who I have at home. And if you really want to know, we're having chicken pot pie for dinner tonight. If you want deep, that's where we're going.

Speaker 2 (00:03:41) - Hahahahahahaha! Is that homemade chicken pot pie?

Speaker 3 (00:03:45) - It is homemade. I was raised Mormon, so there's some things in there. You just you can take the girl out of Mormonism, but there's.

Speaker 2 (00:03:51) - Some habits that stick. You know what I'm saying? I do, I do they always say, you can take the girl out of New Orleans, but you cannot take New Orleans out of the girl. And that is I mean, I mean, it's for real. Yeah. Now we make, you know, gumbo and jambalaya, but I'm with you and your chicken pot pie, so I'm all there. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I have to go back, though, to your answer to the question. I want to understand more from you. What does it mean? So, I mean, let's say somebody like me, just a random here I am, I'm a lawyer, I own a law firm. You know, I've been doing that for a while, but let's say I'm not fulfilled.

Speaker 2 (00:04:29) - And I really think I want to do something else. Like I'm a divorce lawyer and I've had my own divorce. I've, you know, had a blended family. Those are the kind of things that really interests me. What do I do when I'm coming to you? Like, what does that look like?

Speaker 3 (00:04:43) - Not fun. There's actually a specific session I have for someone who comes in out of the blue and is like, and it's called the when I Grow Up session B, and I named it after my first client who's like, please tell me what I'm going to be when I grow up. Right? And she was like the senior ad exec at a radio station, right. She's like, I don't know, this is not my job, but it really is. It's a 90 minute power packed question session, basically to help come through to what you really want to do. And I am not the traditional business coach who's like, and now here's my three step process to make you a millionaire in 20 minutes, right? Like I don't know who's doing that.

Speaker 3 (00:05:17) - Actually, I think that's really weird. But anyway, so what we do is to really look at what makes you happy. And we do the trifecta your experience, your expertise and your talents. And how do we marry those. And then my belief is about business and. I will stand by this forever. It might be the title of my book, so hang on to your hats and glasses. But it is literally. If you can solve a problem for someone, or you can help them get through something faster and with less pain, they will pay you the end, right? And so as long as those three things are being used your experience, your talents, and your expertise, we're golden. And then we solve problems with that. And it's which problems do you want to solve? Which problems make your socks roll up and down, right? For me, it's the problem of women not understanding their relationship to money. Right? Right. And people are like, well, how do you charge for that if they don't have money? And I'm like, ah, right.

Speaker 3 (00:06:04) - Like but I'll figure it out. Why? Because I'll get people there faster and with less pain. Right. But people have literally asked me that. And I've helped people create businesses for starving artists. They're like, how does that work? I'm like, yeah, because you're solving something faster with less pain. And I think when we get to the heart of that, people get super excited. We look at where we are in our in our world, right. College applications notwithstanding, I'm looking at how much people are spending on college totally. And they don't worry about the ROI on that. Right? How many people have said, well, okay, I'll pay you $80,000 a year, but what am I getting back for it? What are we doing? Right? Meanwhile, I'm like, you know what? So let's talk about the investment on this. And people freak out. I'm like, it's nowhere near what you paid for college. And the second I say that, they go, oh my God, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (00:06:47) - And I'm like, you're going to get a lot more out of this. And then they're done completely. Yeah. And it's true. It's not a trick. It's like we just sort of have to reframe the way that we talk about how we solve problems and the way that we talk about how we can help, if we can reframe that for ourselves and everybody else is reframing naturally happens? Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (00:07:04) - Yeah. Well, I mean, what is super curious to me, obviously I'm in the legal world. I'm around lawyers all the time, you know, mostly law firm owners and stuff. But I think of all our sales teams, somebody like you could do a teaching to a sales team in a law firm to help that person connect with that potential new client and talk about how do they reframe that conversation and how do they acknowledge what we can bring to that potential new client, what problem we are solving, how we're addressing their pain? I mean, this is like kind of fascinating to me.

Speaker 3 (00:07:42) - Yeah, it's so great. But I mean, think about it. I don't you just run to like, you know, your local pharmacy when you have a headache. Yeah. Yeah. You don't ask about the ROI on that Tylenol. You're like, freaking get rid of my headache right now. Right? And that's where we really want to understand how we help people. And that's, you know, sometimes it's hard to get especially women, because we're always in such the service mind. We're always like, who needs help, who needs help, who needs help? And I deal with that a lot, too. That's called high functioning codependence, which we can talk about for 3.5 hours if you want. But that's something we do as women. And so helping someone peel back to get to they're actually solving a problem is golden, because we always want to help someone else feel better. And once we can get it can take me a hot second to pull someone back there, depending on how ready they are to actually start creating a profit in their business.

Speaker 3 (00:08:30) - If I can pull someone back, they're getting to the problem you solve is where the spigot to profit lives. Mhm.

Speaker 2 (00:08:37) - Yeah. This is so interesting. Well, and I find your interest in your real passion around women and money and their whole thing to be so eye opening because I mean I am somebody who literally has, you know, built a multi seven figure law firm. Yet I have my own issues personally with whether I'm doing what I need to do to save for myself and to do whatever I like, make sure my team's got, you know, their 41K, their matching, their whatever. But when it comes to my own, I'm like, oh well, I'm not real good with that. I mean, what is that like that's what I, I.

Speaker 3 (00:09:15) - Always joke around. It's like, it's like the shoemaker's kids have no shoes, right? It's the best. It's very common, first of all. So let's just say that right. There's very, very normal. And it is part of the high functioning codependence.

Speaker 3 (00:09:26) - So high functioning Codependence. Anytime I say that when I'm speaking, everyone goes, I have that. I'm like, I haven't defined it yet, but it just they're like, no, I do and I'm like, I just laugh. I'm like, you probably do. It's funny, but it just it's exactly kind of what it sounds like. But it's this idea that as women, right, people who are who were raised as girls, the whole thing, right, with the the constant message was, oh, don't cry, where's my pretty face? Right. Those sorts of messages, they were subtle. But what they say is your emotions are bothering me. Could you please stop having them? Right. And then that turns into everyone's watching TV and you're running around the house doing the laundry and making sure dinner's done and get it right. That's what that looks like. And we can function at that level. The high functioning piece is real, right? So it's that anyone born into a female body, we have more connective tissue literally between our left and right hemispheres of our brains.

Speaker 3 (00:10:16) - It's an actual physiological difference. And that's what allows us to multitask like crazy. Right. That's what allows us to go. Yeah. Could you get that chicken out of the freezer? Hey, did you get that thing? FactSet? You know I didn't get that. Did you send that email? No, I got this. And you're texting someone at the same time. We actually. Literally, physiologically have the ability to do that. And I always joke around. I was raised with five boys in the house. Right. So I say this with love, but anyone who's lived with a guy who's watching TV and you go, hey, could you take the garbage out? They're like, But I'm watching. I watch some TV and it's literally they don't have that ability. That's not a dig. It's wonderful in so many ways, right? Because men go in and focus and you can't mess. We don't have that. So it's like this beautiful ability for us to do all of this, except that it has been turned into all of the invisible, unpaid work that makes the world work for everyone but us.

Speaker 3 (00:11:06) - Right? Right. And that gets translated into my staff's 401 K's are taken care of. I don't do mine right. And it's amazing. It hits almost every area of our lives. And it's not your fault at all. And it's going to take women talking to other women about it so we can call each other on and be like, yo do, did you put money in your pocket? Did you do that right? Because if not left to our own devices, we hear crazy things out there like, oh, she's just killing it. Meanwhile, she's half dead, right? And the one phrase I will never say about a woman ever is you're so selfless. I don't want women giving up themselves. That's not a thing. Like, we really need to slow that down. But it manifests, at least in the way that you just said. And so it's so great to even be aware of it, because then you can go, ah, I can be really high functioning and not be codependent on me.

Speaker 3 (00:11:52) - You're so great. You're so good. And that's that codependence piece. And we can break that for each other to not be dependent and need to take care of everybody else. Because there are I mean, how many times have you been like, I'm taking care of everyone? I'm taking care of it. I don't want to take care of everyone. You keep taking care of everyone. That's the competency piece. Yeah. So it's like really calling each other out with love and support and kindness. I mean, like, yo, dude, you don't have to pretend like you don't know how to do this. You're so good with numbers. You have run this business like, girl, I got you. Let's go. And that energy shifts it immediately and you go. You're right. I'm taking care of this in, like, the next 20 minutes. Because you could and you can, right? But understanding where it comes from and the fact that you are not at fault or to blame for any of it.

Speaker 3 (00:12:39) - Right. It's the system loves it.

Speaker 2 (00:12:41) - The system.

Speaker 3 (00:12:42) - Thrives off of us doing this kind of.

Speaker 2 (00:12:44) - Wild. Because, I mean, when you mention the whole idea of, you know, the stuff that's going on in our head because, I mean, I'll say to myself, like, I'll hear myself, oh, well, if you go, you know, put that money over there and save that, that you kind of be in selfish and kind of capitalistic. And I'm just like, I mean, hello, like.

Speaker 3 (00:13:05) - Do you know what I mean? I do, I really do. Yeah, it is, it is, it's because we have been trained to never take care of us. Right. So it's not even like you're being responsible and you are taking care of yourself. It's like, you selfish wench, how could you take that? Right? It's amazing. High functioning codependence. Yeah, that's what that is. Yeah, it's. It's amazing. It's so powerful once you know it, because you're like, well, I'm not doing that anymore.

Speaker 3 (00:13:32) - It gets really easy to stop the the chatter will still be there because it's been there for your whole life, but you'll hear it in a different way and you'll be like, oh, I get that all the time. People are like, Sarah. It's like you're sitting there going, it's okay. You don't have to go do what you want to do. It's okay. They're like, I hear you. I'm like, good, I'm doing my job.

Speaker 2 (00:13:49) - Seriously. Well, I mean, I cannot I mean, like you say, I am not the only person who's dealing with this. Clearly this is. Would you have any recommendations like books people can read or things? Are there anything that you would recommend?

Speaker 3 (00:14:03) - There's 100 million. Um, my favorite actually. The woman who coined the phrase high functioning codependence. She's a therapist in New York City. And her last name, Terry Cole. I was like, her last name flew right out of my head, but Terry Cole is her name.

Speaker 3 (00:14:14) - I don't love the name of her book. I wish she'd named it something different, but it's called Boss Babe or Boundary Boss. Sorry, boundary boss is the name of her book. I apologize sometimes my mouth is faster than my brain and boundary boss is fantastic and she goes through actual exercises you can do to to break the high functioning codependence. And as the person who coined the phrase, definitely go see her because she knows what she's doing. If you're looking for books and then the other one that I really like, which isn't specifically about high functioning codependence is the slight edge written by a white man, which, whatever the contents, great. No. And I do try to read it probably once every six months, 6 or 7 months. And it really is about doing the unsexy tasks that no one else will ever see or know about and generate revenue. Now I see it that way, that generate revenue or that change your life. So saving money when you make it changes your life completely, right? And the number, the number one avenue to wealth is your income.

Speaker 3 (00:15:13) - Totally. I mean, it just is right. And what you choose to do with that income, that's your only avenue to wealth, right? That's the money coming in and how you choose to deal with that or use that. Sometimes an unsexy task, right? Those are the things that consistently putting that money aside, consistently maxing out the 401 K can. Consistently investing in programs for the employees, like whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (00:15:34) - You choose to.

Speaker 3 (00:15:34) - Do. Those unsexy tasks can break through the high functioning codependence as well.

Speaker 2 (00:15:40) - Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:15:41) - Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:15:42) - That's so helpful I love that. Yeah. Okay. Now I feel like I got homework to do. I love it, I'm getting homework.

Speaker 3 (00:15:49) - Can I share one more tip on that.

Speaker 2 (00:15:51) - Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:15:52) - One I, I, I've really studied, I would say over the last eight years in watching the physical manifestation of high functioning codependence for most of us is a feeling that you're hollow. I don't know, it's it's a little bit different for everybody, but as some people, it's right where your ribs separate.

Speaker 3 (00:16:05) - For other people, it's kind of in your chest. If you're feeling that way, it's because you are in that moment participating in high functioning codependence you're doing something for someone else, or you're doing something because you think it looks good. That is making you very unhappy. And that's the moment to just sort of no judgment on self. Right. That just makes it all worse. But like just to step back for that moment and go, wow, why am I actually doing this one specific thing right now? And am I the only one who could be doing this one specific thing right now? And that is when one more book, sorry, The Gift of failure. That's when the book, The Gift of Failure, came into my life. And at the ages of five and eight, my children started doing their own laundry and making their own lunches because I was like, you know what one? They should know how to do this. Like, come on, it kills me what the kids can't do anymore.

Speaker 3 (00:16:50) - Right? But two, it was that moment of they were all watching TV. Yep. And I was doing laundry. And I'm like, what the hell is this? And I didn't mean it to be mean, but I'm like, how did this even happen? Exactly? Like, how did this happen? And I think those moments are those are moments for us to sort of support each other in and go, dude, I just had a moment, just completely it's okay. Someone else can do the laundry. It's all right. Like just supporting in that, in that sort of dialogue with each other to support breaking through this and asking questions.

Speaker 2 (00:17:18) - Well, it's so funny you mention that just this morning, one of my really good friends, he's a father, he and his wife, and he posted something on social media about leaving clothes all folded on the stairs for his children and his children are just stepping over them. They're not even bringing them up. And I was like, well, first stick them on the porch and make them pay to get them back.

Speaker 2 (00:17:37) - But then second, I was like, they need to be doing their own laundry. Like because his kids are like teetering on teenagers. And I was just like, I mean, in our home, it was an eight year thing. Like when you were eight, it was a big deal. Like you're taking over that chore and it was it is so interesting to read the comments. I mean, these are all like elegant people. Some people are like, well, the fact that you aren't bringing them up shows you're as lazy as your child. Oh.

Speaker 3 (00:18:05) - Excuse me. Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:18:06) - See, I'm thinking, are we kidding? I was like, these parents just did this laundry, folded them, put them on the stairs, and we're going to say these parents are lazy because they're not caring them up for their almost pre-teen. I was like, whoa, what are we teaching nowadays?

Speaker 3 (00:18:25) - And that's how it gets perpetuated right there. Yeah, it's like, how selfish are you? It's the same.

Speaker 3 (00:18:30) - It's that same message you heard. Yeah. So selfish for me to put this money away. That's. And that's how it gets perpetuated in society. And that's why we need each other to have these kinds of conversations to say, where did you learn that? Where did you learn that leaving folded, laundered clothes was lazy? Where did you learn that? And people go, whoa. And all of a sudden now they're starting to think, and that's all we can do is really support each other. And but it's it is fascinating to see where high functioning codependence you should do everything. Do everything all the time, do everything perfectly. Do it all, do it all. You're not doing enough. You're not doing enough. You're not doing enough to watch the different ways that message weaves its weaves its way into our psyches, into our subconscious, and into our day to day habits. It's it's incredible.

Speaker 2 (00:19:12) - Well, and I mean, the intensity with which this damages people's actual physical health in addition to their mental health.

Speaker 2 (00:19:21) - I mean, I just have I watch so many women. I mean, burnout isn't even begin to touch what they're dealing with. Do you know what I mean? Like, they are burned out. But I mean, some of them are literally like their bodily organs are shutting down to do, you know, like it is. And I'm not a doctor, but I mean, stress is just like kind of eating them literally.

Speaker 3 (00:19:48) - Yeah. And 90% of autoimmune diseases are belong to women. 90% of diagnoses in the United States are female. Yeah. Um, because there's a codependent piece. Keep going. You're looking great.

Speaker 2 (00:19:59) - Yeah. How do we change this? Like, how do we, you know, put a real pin in it and make a change conversation.

Speaker 3 (00:20:08) - Honestly, it's going to this is I'm going to say something terrible. It's a woman on woman crime. Right. Like I would go back and look at those comments and see who's making them. And I would bet I can guess the gender on that.

Speaker 3 (00:20:18) - And that, again, isn't a dig. They somebody did it to them and so they're passing it on. Right. So this conversation is step number one. We have to start being aware of like wait where did I learn that. That's weird. Why would I talk to someone else like. Geez, don't we all have enough to. Whoa, right. Like, just slowing for a hot second. And then step number two is all of us learning our own internal signals. Like I said, that's why I stopped and said, wait, when you feel hollow. And the best thing to do when you are experiencing that in the moment is it's going to sound very funny. But I love it because it's instant and it's free. And that is wiggle your Toes sounds crazy. It pulls you back into the moment and you recognize you're fine, okay. And you go, oh no, I'm here. I'm a person. Because that's what that's what that high functioning thing does is you. You're gone.

Speaker 3 (00:20:59) - You're out. You're just a Tarski thing that's running around doing things. You're not a person. So wiggling your toes will pull you back into your body enough that you're like, oh, that's right, I'm here. Right. Because have you ever had that you walk past the mirror, you're like, who the hell? Well, that was me, because we're not. We're so so that when you can slow down enough to sort of be there and go, okay, here I am, then you can make a different decision, like investing the money, right? Or someone else is doing this laundry, or you can start to think again. So it's conversations and awareness. Literally tell every woman you know, I'm not kidding. I had somebody give out a boundary boss to like 25 people this year. I was like, way to go because we got to start to figure this out. So conversations and awareness, knowing your own internal signals, getting yourself back in your body, wiggle your toes. Nobody knows you're doing it.

Speaker 3 (00:21:45) - It's great to do in meetings if you're nervous too, by the way. So good. And then lastly is start looking at where you can offload. Um, and that doesn't mean like make everybody else do everything and peel your grapes for you. But it's more, are you really? This is so great in business too. And I've heard other business coaches say this as well. But are you really the person who has to be doing this task really.

Speaker 2 (00:22:04) - Right.

Speaker 3 (00:22:05) - Yeah. Like really you know, and no, people may not do it as well as you initially. They may not do it exactly like you initially. Right. But to continue to fight, to hold on to things so you feel like you look good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's probably going to really hurt you. And that's where we're at 90% of autoimmune diseases. Yeah. So I think I think that's my honest to God answer. And it's an internal process for most of us. But it's conversations like this that are step one literally.

Speaker 2 (00:22:31) - I mean, just so critical though. I just think it is so critical. Yeah. I think it's you finding most of your clients in this, like where they're having this as well.

Speaker 3 (00:22:43) - I've never met anyone who wasn't ever any woman. Sorry. I've never. And if the children are gone, they are taking care of their mother in law or their parents. Right. It's like this nonstop. Yeah. There you go. See? There it hit. Yeah. It's like nonstop. Um, you are not good enough. You are not productive enough. You are not smart enough. Unless you are taking care of everything all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:23:07) - It is. I mean, that is just so fascinating. It really I mean, I just had a conversation with my daughter, who's in law school and lots going on, but she was talking about a friend who literally just like her whole body fell apart, like doing all this. She was doing this crazy, intense job she's all involved in, like, advanced work and in politics and all this and I mean, her whole self kind of shut down.

Speaker 2 (00:23:34) - I mean, this is a person in her 20s. Yes. And I was like, and and she's literally talking about how she's like, you know, feels horrible that she needs a break. And I was like, what? I'm like, she actually needs like a massive break. Like, I mean, she is like probably doing real damage to her, her life and our longevity. Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:23:57) - Serious. Like real like you. Stress is the number one killer, literally just because of the inflammation it causes. And we know physiologically, like inflammation is one of the most dangerous things you can have in our body. And the codependence piece of this is no joke, right? Because what she's hearing as she's building up to that insanity is, oh my God, you're so amazing. We need you so much. What would we do without you? You are just incredible. How do you do all this? You're just. God, I wish my daughter was like, right, that's what she's hearing.

Speaker 3 (00:24:26) - And that's causing her to continue to act in a habitual, almost like, addictive way. Right? Where now? Now we're dealing with like that same form of dopamine hit that we're seeing in heroin addicts. And that's why people continue to do it even when it's killing them. It's exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (00:24:43) - Yeah. But how I.

Speaker 3 (00:24:44) - Mean.

Speaker 2 (00:24:45) - Wow, how does this get stopped? Like you have intrigued me beyond I mean, I am like so fascinated.

Speaker 3 (00:24:53) - Yeah. It's. Yeah. Well, I mean, I have my own thoughts about it besides the steps we've spoken about. I mean, even saying that to her is, is big because now every time, right, she starts doing it again, she'll hear, right, I'm doing it again. That awareness alone is enough. Now she has a moment and she can then choose in that moment what she's going to do about it. But now she knows she's doing it. And that is 90% of the game, right? Once we take back that power of like, no, I'm going to actively choose to do this because I want the next raise that matters to me.

Speaker 3 (00:25:22) - Like, fine, that's your choice. But be careful, because once you get that raise, you're going to want the next one. So just hang on to your ads and glasses. Right? So there's sort of that. Awareness and that cognitive conversation that we need to have. And then my personal belief, this is very self-serving of me to say, but I think every single human should have a coach, and every single human should have a therapist. Like we are not taught in school what our emotions mean and how to use them. And that's what a therapist. As far as I'm concerned, that's like we we get mentors for math and English. Why are we not getting mentors for emotions? It's the most important like asset we have and we're not taught. How do you. So go get a therapist and figure that out. Right. And then for coaching where it's like, wait a second, you've said that to me 15 times in this session, do you need a break like right. And what I, what I personally love, like I said, this is self-serving to say, but what I love so much about coaching is it can be one comment in one session changes somebody's life forever.

Speaker 3 (00:26:18) - Forever. And and you just you can't when you can't predict when that's going to happen, which kind of makes it fun. But the other is it it literally can be life changing. And I think I consider it my job as a coach is to alter human behavior, which gets us right to that high functioning codependence. Right. My job would be when I have somebody that I'm coaching, is to have them get through that with an expert shoulder to shoulder standing with them going, all right, okay. Yeah, no, I got it. So you chose to do the laundry for three hours last night. God, how are you feeling today? What was that like? Who else could have? And then the next time things start to change, it's a process of grace, and it's a process of honesty. But in order for women to, in my opinion, to truly feel free, right? So I have an Abundance Academy where I teach the the like the principles of abundance, right? And for me, abundance is freedom.

Speaker 3 (00:27:06) - It's like, let's call it what? Like I should call it the freedom. The freedom focus or something I don't read. It's like this idea that there's just so much freedom. If we are stuck in that rut, there is no freedom, right? So it's that process of getting that power back and it takes a little bit of time. It's not going to happen because we had a conversation one time. What's going to happen over time as you practice and you mess it up and you go, oh my God, this is really isn't great, right? And it is. It's just like an alcoholic. I have a friend who's who's quit drinking about eight months ago and she's like, you know, I was thinking last night, I mean, I can just have one once. I was like, damn, this ego. Like the way these addictions come right back in, you know? Oh, and had she not been talking about it, she would have talked her into the whole she would have talked herself into it.

Speaker 3 (00:27:50) - And that's why we need each other so much to support and be like, yeah, no, you can't.

Speaker 2 (00:27:56) - Right.

Speaker 3 (00:27:56) - Play a card game, go do something else. Let's do something together. You don't have to do all the laundry. Let's go have coffee. Like, those are the things that we need in our society for each other. And it's going to be women with women. It's going to be us supporting each other through this because we get it. We just get it on such a profound level because every single one of us has it.

Speaker 2 (00:28:13) - Yeah. It's so I mean, it's really profound. Does your work with people, is it mostly individual? Do you do group work? Like what does that look like?

Speaker 3 (00:28:23) - Yeah. So I do have one on one clients. I love my one on one work. Everyone's like, you know, to scale. This is what I mean by I'm not the normal business coach right there. Like, you gotta stop one on one. I'm like, I will never stop what I what I love, what I want so much.

Speaker 3 (00:28:36) - And what I always say to people is I do you so you can go do your business. And of course I'll help you with business and profitability and all that stuff. But, you know, in my mind, business success is 20% strategy and 80% mindset. I can give you every strategy in the book and if your head's on a mess, not gonna matter. So there's that one on one. And then I have the sales mastermind, which is a six month intensive high touch coaching program. It's a group coaching program specifically on sales. And there I do teach that is strategy. You go out and practice, we work on it together. You go out to practice again, we work on it together. And I love that. I love that course. And then I have my Abundance Academy and that is a 12 month program. It's open enrollment, so people come in when they need it. And I love that about it. It's not an open and closed course. They come in when they know they need more women in their lives who are being ambitious and are chasing things and going after stuff and looking for abundance in every area of life.

Speaker 3 (00:29:25) - And I really, really love that. A programs like From My Heart, that's like the one where people realize there is enough time. Like I see a lot of shoulders drop and relax and I see joy in a new way, and I see love showing up in different ways and, well, it's so delicious. It's just my thing.

Speaker 2 (00:29:41) - I just love that. It's so interesting. I just had my meeting with my team, like, you know, welcome to the New Year meeting. And I was just saying how one of the things that I envision is our law firm, you know, feeling like it's an honor to be a lawyer, not a burden, you know, and that it's not stressful and that it is a joyful practice. And, you know, I get people looking at me and you can just see on zoom, they're looking at me like, okay, Elise, you must have like had a little too much to drink in Antarctica or something. But but it's so true. Like, I feel like there's such a choice in what you're coming into and what you're doing, and I just love the thought of that.

Speaker 2 (00:30:23) - There is enough time, there is enough peace, there's calmness. And I mean, because those are. All the things that like when I think about my law firm and think about like the ideal state, I have people in the whole firm who are always the lowest heart rate in every room, and they're calm and they're bringing that wisdom and peace to our clients because, I mean, when people are going through divorce, they don't need an attorney who's riding the ceiling. Do you know what I mean? Like, they need an attorney who is grounded, peaceful, who sees the future as hopeful. And so I love this. I mean, I'm super curious. I'm gonna have to go, like, look at this, because this is really intriguing to me.

Speaker 3 (00:31:10) - Yeah, it's it's kind of a recreation of how we're moving through life. Right? It really is. It's, you know, I was just talking to a colleague about this this morning. She was talking about the quiet quitting and like, the great resignation and and this here I've noticed there's like the anti hustle movement and I'm like what is happening.

Speaker 3 (00:31:27) - And you know obviously look there can't be all of that. Like in order to be successful you gotta do stuff like there's just sort of that and you don't have to hustle. And that's what I mean by like a different way to experience going through life, because you can have a task list of 20 things to do, and on Monday it could freak you the hell out and you're like, it's totally right. But then you shift your mindset around it. It's like, oh my gosh, 18 of those things are going to make people feel better. Oh, you get a great cup of coffee and you sit down, you put on some wonderful music and you just get those. And the last two might be tasks, tasks that are a little annoying, but you're like, I helped 18 people today. And then and it's the same task list, right? Right. You have to get work done. But what a different way to go through life, right? Like whoa. And that that's actually possible.

Speaker 3 (00:32:14) - Completely right. I mean, it's a real thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:32:18) - Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:32:18) - And it makes and it and what I love to what I love. Right. Because I have my I have my goal in life and that's I put more money in the hands of more women. And what I love about is we can go through life like that and it even brings in more money, right? Well then it's like sweepstakes man, you name it, we got it. And that's when real joy and aliveness happens. And boy am I here for that. Like, yeah, let's go. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:32:41) - Well and that's the thing. The thought of bringing more money into women's hands and their hearts because women do some of the most amazing things with their money in addition to caring for themselves. But, I mean, some women, they just I'm mind boggled at the stuff they'll do and start and just will turn something into this beautiful thing. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing. I just love it. It's true, it's true.

Speaker 3 (00:33:11) - I know my my kids are big Taylor Swift fans. Oh yeah. So I've really been tracking that woman and I am like, holy what? Wow. And all her own. Oh yeah. Writing lyrics on her phone sitting here. I don't like that. I'm going to change this one. I'm like, what in the. I mean, and there are a few people that work that hard, right? Like I wouldn't run for three hours on a treadmill every single day while singing in order to prepare for that tour. But that's what she did, right? Totally. And it's also like, I think one of the food banks after her concerts was like, yeah, they wouldn't disclose the number, but they're like, she gave us enough to feed half a million people every year for the next ten years. And I just burst into tears. I'm like, that's what women do with money. And you know, it's going to make me cry. But like, I look at what's happening in the world and we, you know, we all know the wars, horrible things.

Speaker 3 (00:33:57) - And, you know, I just say, you know, if we can drop a bomb within inches of where we need it, we can drop food and water and medicine within inches of where we need it. And I don't think women would drop bombs on each other's children. And we need more women in charge of where these things are going, what is happening and.

Speaker 2 (00:34:13) - What's being dropped. Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:34:14) - Right. That's right. Because we would we would drop food, water and medicine.

Speaker 2 (00:34:17) - Completely for.

Speaker 3 (00:34:18) - Each other's children, not bombs. And it's got to stop. And I truly believe the answer is more money in the hands of more women.

Speaker 2 (00:34:25) - I do too, I absolutely do, absolutely. I just think women need to have so much more power in our world. I mean, and, you know, like it or not, I mean, power and money are exceedingly intertwined.

Speaker 3 (00:34:42) - I say that all the time. At least. Money is the most powerful tool we have access to today. We might not like that fact.

Speaker 3 (00:34:48) - And who knows, maybe next year will decide it's paper hearts instead. I don't know, but right now it's money, right? And it has intentionally been taken away from the hands of women, right? In different ways, we can say that. But it's also doesn't have to be that way now. And this high functioning codependence thing, that's our way internally for us to start to tackle this and start to live life a little bit differently. So we do start to see the avenues, you know, the opportunities to create more money, the opportunity to generate a bigger income. It's very challenging to do that if you're focused on the laundry. And I'm not saying that like doing laundry is bad. I actually love doing laundry. I'm crazy. I'm like a Marie Kondo fan. I love it, right? Like there are parts of it I really enjoy. That's not what I mean. But if you think that's what you're here to do. Do, expanding your mind to see the opportunities and the other ways you can serve is going to shrink because it's been occupied by other things, right? So that's what I mean by that.

Speaker 3 (00:35:37) - And you're exhausted and you get sick and you're right. So yes, lots of work ahead, but it's all doable.

Speaker 2 (00:35:43) - The mindset I mean, I sometimes I'll talk to people and, you know, sometimes even a client and they'll be talking about, oh, well, I need to cut this, you know, these three expenses and we're talking like $100 here, $100 there. I'm like, can we actually figure out how for you to bring in 5000 more dollars a month, like let's go for that. Yes. And they're like, but at least I just need to say.

Speaker 3 (00:36:08) - I'm like.

Speaker 2 (00:36:09) - Let's flip that whole thing. And, and it's so interesting because even just as simple as how do you bring in another $5,000 a month? Sometimes I'll brainstorm with a client and I'm like, let's talk about all the ways you could bring in $5,000 by the end of this week. I mean, literally there's 100 of them. Do you know what I mean? So many ways. And it's so fascinating to watch them just it like, boggles their mind because they're like, I never thought about how I could bring in this money right now.

Speaker 2 (00:36:42) - And it's like, I mean, just really flipping your mindset around what is possible.

Speaker 3 (00:36:48) - Yeah, yeah, it's true. And that's what it takes. That's it right there. That's what we're looking at. And that exactly what you just said. The flips in our mind, in our own mind about what is real, what isn't, what do I have to do, what needs to get done like that. Just starting to question that instead of save, save, save. Well, how about we expand, expand, expand those moments? That's all the magic right there. Yeah I love that you do that for your clients Lisa. That's so cool. It's so good.

Speaker 2 (00:37:15) - They probably think I'm a little wacky as I'm out there, you know, giving them their ideas on how can we raise $5,000. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:37:21) - Until they bring in $5,000, they're like, Elise is a genius, right?

Speaker 2 (00:37:24) - Because I think you do it one time, though, and it helps you build your confidence. And then you're like, oh, okay, I can create this again and again and again.

Speaker 2 (00:37:36) - And I mean, it grows on itself. Mhm. I find that's true. Yeah. That's true. So interesting. Yeah. Well when you talk about as my last question because I know I've like kept you like oh I love it when you talk about growing up in a like a single parent household, you know, or like not having a lot of money. How do you think that impacted you in your ability to do the work you do now? Like, I mean, how has that played out for you?

Speaker 3 (00:38:03) - It's everything. It's everything. Yeah. I mean, all right, do you want me to tell you? Because I'll tell you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:38:10) - I do.

Speaker 3 (00:38:11) - You know, like I need to ask permission for this because I'm about to tell you a little story. No. So it actually, honestly, I think this work for me started when I was five, and I was. You remember when PBS used to do fundraisers? Because, you know, we're 425 years old. So anyway, so yeah, PBS used to do fundraisers and it was Christmastime, and they were doing The Nutcracker like this beautiful.

Speaker 3 (00:38:30) - I think it was the Russian Ballet. I don't know, it was gorgeous. And I looked at the screen, I turned to my mom and said, mom, I want to do that. I didn't know what it was, I didn't care, I want it in. And we were way too poor for me to really take lessons. But what I did do was learn from MTV. Yeah. So Janet Jackson, Paula Abdul, I was great at throwing chairs and pretending I was dancing with cartoon characters. It was great. And that's really how I learned to dance. Then every once in a while, if we had enough, I could do like a pop in class or something like that, or I'd watch early in the morning. There would be things on PBS, like little exercise classes. Those things I would do those. But one of the big things in Utah where I was raised were the dance teams. The high school dance teams were a really big deal, and I really, really wanted to make the dance team.

Speaker 3 (00:39:10) - So it comes time. Finally, I'm 16, 5 to 16 my whole life, right? I wanted to be on this dance team and I get to try out and I made the team and I'll never forget it. I'm in a really tight knit community. People are bringing over roses. Like, everyone's so excited. And then I got the letter that said how much the dance costumes were going to cost. Oh yeah, at least I don't know if you've ever had a moment where you sort of watch yourself go through something. You're almost like, wow, she's having something go on. Right? It's like, and I'm looking at it's like the the jacket and the shoes and the cost. And I'm like, oh my God, like we can't. Oh my God, when I say we're poor, we were poor. Why you don't understand. There were times we had half a loaf of bread that my mother had made from scratch. Right. And a jar of honey like the end. That's like we're talking, not money.

Speaker 3 (00:39:55) - And I know everyone watching or listening will be crazy shocked that I was very frisky. And I went and got a job at the mall. And if you don't know what a mall is anymore, just think of Stranger Things. And I went to the mall and I got a job at one of those kiosks that are now annoying where they're like, hey, can I ask you about your hair? Right. It was kind of like that. I sold little tchotchkes that nobody needed, but it was the 80s, so it was cool. And I made my little first paycheck, and I was so excited because it was enough for the deposit on the on the dance costume. So my mom takes me to the grocery store where they have a service desk so I can get the check cash because I don't have my own bank account yet. And as we're. Walking into the store, my mom says, Sarah, the strawberries are on sale. Can we get some? And I'm like, okay, so I'm thinking of the strawberries.

Speaker 3 (00:40:34) - I'm thinking of my costumes. I'm like, yes, we can do both these things, right? So I go get my money. She takes my younger brother to go get the strawberries, and now I have the cash in hand and I'm looking for in the express checkout. And she's not there. I'm like, oh my God, where did they go? And I'm looking up and down the aisles and I see them in line with a cart full of groceries. And it's like my brother's favorite breakfast cereal. It's milk. It's lunch meats for his lunches. It's bread. The damn strawberries are there. And I'm standing there, Lisa, and I'm like, I can pay for these groceries, food for the family, or I can get something I've wanted since I was five, but I can't do both.

Speaker 2 (00:41:09) - Right?

Speaker 3 (00:41:10) - And in that moment, I decided I could never take care of myself and the people I love. Right? So I leave little Sandy, Utah. I go to UCLA. I live in Europe for two years doing like work with the homeless people.

Speaker 3 (00:41:23) - Right? Like like I'm all over the place and I finally land in New York City. I have this incredible corporate job, right? I have this beautiful glass office. I got to fit a tree in there. It's like, oh, my God, it's amazing, right? Except I'm sick all the time. My chest always hurts, right? I was about £20 thinner than I am now. That part didn't suck so much, but it wasn't for healthy reasons. And anyway, I'm sitting there one day. My mom, my mom, my daughter calls and says, mommy, I miss you. And I'm hearing the clock tick in my office and I'm like, I'm not getting these minutes back. And that was the day I remembered the grocery store. Before that moment, I had forgotten about, you know, life happens and then you forget that you have a life, right? I'd forgotten. And I realized I had made the decision while my family was being taken care of financially, I was not okay.

Speaker 3 (00:42:08) - Right? And that was the moment I remembered. And what what happened after that was actually quite important. Everyone's always like, did you buy the girl? What did you do? And I'm sorry, I don't mean to leave people hanging, but what I did that day is I bought the groceries, and then my best friend's mom heard what had happened, right? And she got the costumes for me. Right? And what was so amazing, Lisa's in 2019, right before Covid hit, I held a conference in Salt Lake City. I went back and decided to host a conference there. And people know this is my grocery store story. And so I tell it often, and I just burst into tears and I said, you know, everybody knows there was someone who bought my costume, and I got to bring her up on stage and thank her in front of everybody. It was like, I cry every time I tell this because she died in 2020. So it was like this incredible moment. And, and, you know, at least like I was joking and I say, you know, you forget your own life happens like I tell that story and it's real and it happened.

Speaker 3 (00:43:00) - But in that moment, to be back in the place where it happened with the woman who made that difference in my life, saying, if she hadn't paid for those costumes, I don't know if I'd be doing this. Right. Right. I mean, it's just the ripple effect of our behavior and understanding that that's what women do when they have money. Yeah. Also juxtaposed to the position my mother was in that day, the position I was in that day, and that I think has informed all of my work. So I know that was a long answer to your short question, but it was real. That's my real, honest to God answer is that this is why I do. What I do is because I was raised that way.

Speaker 2 (00:43:36) - Wow wow wow wow is all I can say is I mean, oh, it's isn't it amazing how our childhood informs things and as a mom, the ultimate responsibility you feel like. I mean, there are so many things. You can only imagine how many times I've been like, oh gosh, that was not my best moment.

Speaker 2 (00:44:01) - Or you know. Yes, yes. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, yeah, gosh, I'm so glad, though, that somebody did help you and you were able to get the costumes and keep moving forward with the dance team. That was a huge blessing.

Speaker 3 (00:44:23) - It changed everything. I mean, it did. It changed everything, right? It showed me I love being on stage, right? So every time I speak, I'm like, thank you so much, Audrey. I mean, still to this day, I'm like, God bless you. Thank you. You know, just incredible. And I think, like I said, that trifecta of me, my mother and Audrey and watching what women are taught about money, how we treat money, how we treat each other with money, all those things and watching that move around in that one moment and like, like, how do I not do what I'm doing right?

Speaker 2 (00:44:51) - I almost feel that way sometimes.

Speaker 2 (00:44:53) - Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I feel that way for you.

Speaker 3 (00:44:56) - I yeah, it was it was quite the orchestrated moment. Sometimes I feel like thanks universe. I don't know why I had to make it so hard, but dang message received right.

Speaker 2 (00:45:08) - Oh my gosh. Well it has been such a pleasure talking to you. I just cannot thank you enough. How should people find you? Like what is the best way? And we will make sure to get those in the show notes. But what is the best way for people to find you?

Speaker 3 (00:45:23) - Yeah, so you find me on YouTube. I'm always over on YouTube having a great time and I'm on. Sir Graham as well the Sarah Walton. Not because I'm the Sarah Walton, but because my name was taken. Yeah. So you'll find me there, and then you just head over to Sarah Walton. Com and I have a lot of obviously free resources there for people because my job is to put more money in the hands of more women and.

Speaker 3 (00:45:41) - Yeah, drop me a line, say hi. We do respond. I really, really do. And I love meeting more women who are up to Stem. They're ready to shift. They're ready to stop seeing the world the way the rest of the world wants us to see it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:45:53) - Yeah. Well, I cannot wait to share this with other people because you have just been, I mean, really, really game changing just to talk to today. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate your time.

Speaker 3 (00:46:06) - Thank you Elisa. So and I appreciate you having me on. This has just been an absolute joy to talk to you all day.

Speaker 2 (00:46:11) - Well, thank you and good luck to your son with his college application.

Speaker 3 (00:46:15) - Oh thank you, thank you. Fingers crossed. Fingers, toes, eyeballs. Everything. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:46:19) - Thank you so much, Elise. Okay. Enjoy your day.

Speaker 1 (00:46:23) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast. A production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode.

Speaker 1 (00:46:32) - See you next time.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Bridget O'Toole. 

Bridget is a millennial environmental, land use, municipal and energy lawyer and mom to a 4-year-old son. She opened her own law firm on April 1, 2023 (April Fools Day) in one of New York's most rural counties after leaving a bougie downtown boutique law firm.

She’s been practicing since 2011 and represents clients all over New York State in her practice areas. 

Take a listen!

Episode Highlights:

  • 01:11 Meet Bridget
  • 04:58 Bridget’s practice in environmental, land use, municipal, and renewable energy law
  • 09:37 The challenges of working from home
  • 10:35 The persistent issue of schools contacting mothers first
  • 16:42 Bridget's work in renewable energy and her experience working with commercial fishing associations in New York State
  • 22:44 The benefits of meditation for stress management and the importance of unplugging from technology
  • 29:18 Bridget’s fear of what others would think if she opened an office in a rural county and how she overcame it
  • 31:26 The value of giving trusted referrals 
  • 34:56 The lack of access to justice and technology in rural communities and how it affects her practice
  • 39:53 The different types of insurance that are necessary as a law practice grows
  • 41:19 The significance of joining a mastermind group and connecting with other women who have similar experiences as working moms

📹 Watch the interview here.

Connect with Bridget:

Resources:

Transcripts: Navigating Parenthood and a Rural Law Practice with Bridget O'Toole

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maximum Mom with Elise Buey, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast. And today I am so excited to have my friend and colleague Victoria Collier. Thanks, Victoria, for joining me today. Thanks, Elise. It's always a pleasure. Yeah, well, I'm so excited to talk to you. I feel like I have so many things I need to ask you about. I mean, there are just burning questions. I think that many of us would like to know the answer to. So I have just appointed myself as the person who's going to ask them all. Well, now you've set the bar up so.

Speaker 3 (00:01:01) - High, I'm not sure I can read that.

Speaker 2 (00:01:07) - Okay. First, I always like to just get over that. Tell us what your family looks like. You know, obviously, we're the maximum Mom podcast, so we talk to mostly moms. Of course, I deviate some, but so tell me, tell me what makes up your family? What do you all look like at home?

Speaker 3 (00:01:24) - Yeah. So at home, my parents sorry, my children. We don't need to go all the way back to my parents. But my children have two moms, so one of them was a prosecutor for 15 years before we had our children. And then she has been a stay at home mom since then and does part time work doing independent college counseling. And I, on the other hand, am a full time entrepreneur, juggling multiple businesses. And then we've got the the children that are 13 years old in eighth grade, a boy and a girl. Love and life at the moment. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:02) - You are like hardcore in the thick of mommy Big. Big.

Speaker 2 (00:02:08) - Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:02:08) - Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:10) - Yeah, Well, you first You have to tell those of us. Some people might not know what you and your daughter did this summer. So, I mean, just give us a brief snippet of the adventure you all did. That involved flights, cars, animals.

Speaker 3 (00:02:25) - Right. So we so we live in Atlanta and we have a three and a half acre farm with goats and chickens. And it just so happens that the best goat ever is in the state of Oregon. So we flew first class out to Oregon and then rented a vehicle so that we could pick up. It was two goats, actually two goats from a farm out there. And then we traveled back in the car having to camp on the side of the road because you can't, you know, have goats and hotel. And so part of the adventure was that one place where we stopped to camp and, you know, not knowing how far we could drive and how the trip was going to go, we made no advance reservations anywhere.

Speaker 3 (00:03:11) - It's just kind of like, Hey, let's just stop somewhere. Well, one night there was tornadoes and and so we pitch a tent at this site that we find right at like, dusk. And we're, you know, pitching the tent and then the the park wardens or whatever you want to call them, come driving through and they see this goat and they're talking to my daughter and I'm like, Don't be talking to my daughter. And they're like, Nice goat. You can't have livestock at a national park in us. Like it's dark and there's a tornado coming and they're like, Just hide the goat. And so we did. So anyway, we saw Mount Rushmore. We went to Yellowstone, and it was I drove 100 miles an hour. It was an amazing trip.

Speaker 2 (00:03:58) - Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. And I was so thrilled to be able to see you as you embarked on this journey just for a moment and to buy some of the goat soap that your daughter is making Now, I'm able to share that with people who come to my home for retreat.

Speaker 2 (00:04:12) - So it's kind of exciting because then they get to know and learn about your goat adventure, which I just I mean, you're like a mom after my own heart. I was that mom that was like, okay, we're going to go to camp now. And at the time we lived in Minnesota and camp was in Tennessee, and my kids were like, okay, do we have a map? I'm like, No, we're following the signs itself. I'm like, It is good. Like, we would just get on I-35 and I'm like, We'll just look for signs that mention Southern states, and that's where we're going. And we will get to Tennessee and it'll be all fine.

Speaker 3 (00:04:50) - Well, the amazing thing is being able to see friends, you know, while you're out of town and make those special trips and all that kind of stuff. And my daughter. So appreciate it and I appreciate it. You coming and making time to come see us and everything. So I love I love being able to have my own business, being able to take off time.

Speaker 3 (00:05:08) - I want to and go see the people I want to that I've worked hard with in the business world. Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:05:15) - Well, and I just think it's amazing to to have your daughter come along and do something like that and to also listen to your daughter. I mean, sit there and talk to us about how she found the goats and how she, you know, figured this out. I mean, talk about a little entrepreneur in the making. I mean, like you just need the driver's license. She's got the rest all planned out. And which, again, reminds me so much of my oldest daughter, who I mean, I was just like, okay, you just do your life. Let me know when I'm supposed to be involved. Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (00:05:52) - I'll just share this real quick. Is that, yes, she is a little entrepreneur, but because I am one, she'll tell you that she's not going to be one. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:05:59) - So absolutely. Of course not. She's probably looking for like a steady job, steady pay, like a more steady thing.

Speaker 2 (00:06:08) - Yeah. I mean, we kind of joke in our family. I mean, we don't know if being an entrepreneur was a traumatic experience for the children or or a positive experience. I mean, you know, but that's just, I think, real life, too, you know, And I it's interesting. I mean, talking to you, you're a great person. I saw something recently on social media and somebody was talking about how, you know, they had this practice they'd been involved in. And I don't remember all the details, nor do I mean to like be specific and share the details. But, you know, they had had like a job, a W2 job for years and years, and they're like, Oh, I want to now go out and start my own firm so I can have flexibility and this and that. And it was like, Oh my. Like.

Speaker 3 (00:06:52) - What do we show have you been watching?

Speaker 2 (00:06:55) - I literally was like, I don't begin to know where to start to respond to this person.

Speaker 2 (00:07:01) - I was like, Well, if your flexibility includes 100 hour work weeks, you know, absolute. Stress over cash flow, like the actual learning that you have to do. You know, throw in 10,000 books you need to read because they didn't mention any of this in law school. If that is flexibility, girl, you go for it. You got this.

Speaker 3 (00:07:23) - That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:07:24) - I mean, it is a process of real process. Well, I really I mean, one thing I do want to talk to you about is and I think that I've heard you talk about this a lot of times, I think people think about entrepreneurship, you know, when they have young children because of the flexibility and stuff. And and I do think there is some real truth to the flexibility of, you know, being able to guide your life like, you know, what are you going to do? And are you going to show up for a school event or whatever? I mean, but I found my children's presence very much drove me in what I was doing because, like, I mean, I needed to pay some bills, like kids were looking at tuition in college and all the things.

Speaker 2 (00:08:10) - I mean, what about you? How has having your children impacted your entrepreneurial journey?

Speaker 3 (00:08:15) - Somewhat. Just like what you're saying is that, you know, you hear a lot of people say, I can't do that because I have kids. I do it because I have kids and it motivates me. And as you know, my entrepreneur journey hasn't been one business that has just gone forward. It's been multiple businesses in different industries. And I think more than anything, as I look through it, especially as they become teenagers and they're starting to think about who they are becoming, the biggest impact, I'd have to say, is that. Even more now is I don't want to hold back because I want to show them that they can do anything. They can't do everything. That's where, you know, teams and delegation come in. But but they can do anything and they don't have to stick with one thing they can change to. We are more than one job. We are more than one skill set. And I would have to say that that's been the biggest impact.

Speaker 3 (00:09:15) - Knowing that I have two little ones looking at everything I do every day.

Speaker 2 (00:09:19) - Oh, I mean, amen to that. It is I find it has been wild to watch how much your children do watch you good, bad and ugly. You know, and obviously and I'm know you, too, like me. I mean, I'm making mistakes over here all the time. You know what I mean? Like on the Daily. I mean, on the hourly, you know, I'm flinging off some mistake something and they are watching all the things. And it's interesting because when mine, when I got to that empty nester syndrome or period, I literally thought, oh, I'm on the back end of all this. Little did I realize these young adult people are watching like a hawk because now they're really like, okay, you know, what am I going to do with my life? What is. So any thought that, you know, once they go off to school, you can like, you know, kick your heels up and they're not watching? Let me assure you, that ain't the case.

Speaker 3 (00:10:20) - There's Well, just like you're still watching them like a hawk, like mothers do. Yeah. They're, you know, which is good. You know, it should be that way.

Speaker 2 (00:10:30) - Yeah, it is. It's an interesting journey, though. And I have found actually said to my husband the other day that I think owning a business has been the biggest impetus for personal development by far of anything I've ever done. And that alone is worth the entrepreneurial journey.

Speaker 3 (00:10:50) - Right. And, you know, I think and that comes down to like you hear the term coaching all the time. And I meet lawyers that have gone ten, 20, 30 years without any coaches at all. And I think where they missed the boat often and even just listening to podcasts and things like that is that coaching isn't often about the business, it's about your growth and how you uplevel you so that then the business does what you want it to do with results. And so you're right. I mean, to me it's all personal development.

Speaker 3 (00:11:25) - I just happen to have a business on the side that's coming along and supporting that, Right?

Speaker 2 (00:11:29) - So exactly. I think that's exactly right. Well, let's talk a little bit about your current business that you're running that's related to law firms. I know you are involved in different business adventures now, but you have one business that is related to law firm positioning, law firm sales. How would you how would you describe that overall?

Speaker 3 (00:11:50) - The business is called quid pro quo, which means equal exchange of value. And so the crux of what we do is we help law firm owners sell or buy law firms, and we're looking for a perfect match between buyers and sellers, which does bring equal value to both sides.

Speaker 2 (00:12:07) - Awesome. And what what type of things? I mean, what are you looking at and what is your own experience in this? Because you do bring a unique skill set to this area having sold and I think bought your own.

Speaker 3 (00:12:22) - In the process of. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:12:24) - So tell us a little bit about that and what your experience brings to the table in this.

Speaker 3 (00:12:30) - So I started my own law firm in 2002, so I built a law firm from scratch right out of law school. I had that for 18 years and then sold it. And before I sold it, I was doing estate planning, which is really exit planning for personal life. And so it wasn't a big change to go to exit planning for business. And so I got credentials in that and then credentials and valuations so that I could determine what the value of a business would be, specifically law firms. And so I sold my business and I had been coaching lawyers for years and years in the Estate planning, Veterans Benefits World. And many of my students, if you will, were older than I was. And so they had heard that I had sold my law firm. They're contacting me to find out how do I do that? Because historically you didn't you just closed your doors. You just handed your open files to your buddy down the street. And so my very first client was an estate planning firm right in my backyard where she had called me to see if I wanted to buy her firm.

Speaker 3 (00:13:35) - And I said, Well, that would be lovely, except I'm under a conflict of interest because I just sold mine. And, you know, there's ethics rules that you have to abide by. And so we were able to sell her firm all cash up front with a short term exit. And that was what started it all. And so now, yes, I am in the process of buying a law firm as well. And even when I owned my own law firm, I went through the process of trying to buy another one. So I had some experience in that. It just didn't complete at that time. And so we do help other law firms by law firms as well. And I would say at least though, that the thread through all of it is that my background has some psychology in it and communication and mediation, and that is all very helpful with. This type of relationships because emotions run high on both sides.

Speaker 2 (00:14:28) - Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Well, tell us a little bit about I mean, why did you decide to sell your law firm? Like, you know, I know a lot of people, they want to know, like if you're running a successful law firm, why would you leave? Why wouldn't you just continue to run it, you know, earn the money off of it, have somebody else do the day to day.

Speaker 3 (00:14:48) - I'll share a little differently today than I ever have in the past. And which is all still true. Everything is true. Just you get more layers of the onion as you talk about it. But ultimately, I had considered exiting my practice a few times before I did, and something always kept me there. And then I was looking to hire someone as a professional legal administrator to really get my office shaped up in a way that I could not do because I'm the visionary I cannot implement and systems. I believe in them. I cannot create them. And so when I was interviewing this, these people, one of them, the personality test, the guy said, hey, she's going to want to take over your business. And I'm like, That was the first time. I'm like, Really? When it you know, he said it was like, was a bad thing. So that really gave me some hope of spark of hope with some stuff that I had pushed to the end. And then I was on stage giving a about to give a presentation and this woman was heckling me and I was like, I don't need this.

Speaker 3 (00:15:53) - You know, I just don't need this. But ultimately what was happening and this is the new information, what was happening behind the scenes was my plan was definitely getting my business in shape, and it was definitely going in a great business direction. But personality wise, we were very different and I knew that the two of us could not lead the firm with me as visionary and her as PLA. And I knew that she wanted her own firm and all that, coupled with my daughter getting horses and us getting a farm. And didn't it just feel better to be on the farm? And it did. And I thought, You know what? There's only one letter difference in farm and firm. I'm just going to go to the farm and sell the farm. And it got harder and harder to come back, right? And then it was beautiful timing because the pandemic hit. And so then we could just spend all of our time out there. And it's been I just could see all the possibilities with my kids out there and working from there.

Speaker 3 (00:16:52) - And there was no decision after that.

Speaker 2 (00:16:55) - Good for you. Yeah, Well, I think it's I think it is really interesting. And I think as law firm owners, there's so much shoulds in our head about what we should be doing. And I think many of us ended up in law school based on a should, you know, like a lot of times I think people, they get out of high school, they go to college, they go to graduate school. And and they haven't really stopped to think like, what do I want to do? Like, what am I trying to do? So I love that you were able to step back a little and really think about it. And and I mean, personally, I'm with you. Farm and firm. They're just so similar. Like barely a difference, right?

Speaker 3 (00:17:37) - That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:17:38) - I mean, you're wrangling horses in one place and you're wrangling people in another. Like it's all the same.

Speaker 3 (00:17:44) - Yeah. You know, I mean, it took a lot of mental work to get there because it's not even just the shoulds, but it's with everyone watching you, with me having had a presence in the legal community forever with I mean, I remember one lawyer telling me one time something about I'm not going to get his words quite right, but basically you bounce around from here to there with different interests.

Speaker 3 (00:18:09) - And the way he said it, it was I did not take it as a compliment. I took it kind of like she can't ever figure it out. She can't complete anything. And that's not at all how he meant it, because I did ask him about that. But he says, No, you're inspiring because because you can do these things and you don't limit yourself based on, you know, what you people think you should do. Yeah, but it does it. That doesn't mean that it's not inside and has to be dealt with because it does. You see yourself as a failure, I guess is the bottom way to say it is. You know, I'm not still practicing after 30 years. I must be a failure. Why? Why can't I just keep enjoying this? Right.

Speaker 2 (00:18:51) - Yeah. But I think it is so just insightful to realize that sometimes you're waking up in the morning. I mean, and if it's morning after morning and you're not, like, fired up to go to the firm and you'd rather be at the farm, like, I mean, good on you do, you know, for being able to make that decision and stand strong in what you believe in? I think it's really powerful.

Speaker 2 (00:19:14) - I mean, it's the ultimate anti people pleasing.

Speaker 3 (00:19:18) - Right? And then you have your family to answer to. And why is mommy not to? Taking clients anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:19:25) - So, yeah, because she's wrangling horses and dealing with goat adventures, right?

Speaker 3 (00:19:30) - That's right. You know, it certainly changed the dinnertime conversation because my kids literally because we've always talked money, we've always talked business. And so it was not uncommon for me to sit down at the dinner table and have one of my children ask me, So, Mommy, how much money did you make today? And so for two years, I didn't have to hear that.

Speaker 2 (00:19:49) - Right, Exactly. Instead, you could talk about how much poop did you shovel?

Speaker 3 (00:19:53) - That's right. How many plants did I plant?

Speaker 2 (00:19:56) - Yes, indeed. Well, one of the other things you bring up, I think, is about coaches. And I think there is a real plethora of people that just talk about grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And it is one of the things I personally really struggle with because I think we don't.

Speaker 2 (00:20:16) - We don't fully explain what grow, grow, grow, grow, grow can look like. And I think all growth is not equal. I mean, you know, there is growth that is very solid, like people's numbers are and their ratios are excellent. The business is healthy and that is good and there is growth that gets very quickly out of control and people's numbers go a little crazy. And and there's just all kinds of things that can happen. So I think that it's important to really hearken back to what is aligned with the client, you know, and when coaches are coaching people, I mean, how have you dealt with that? No doubt you have come across that grow, grow, grow mentality just as I have.

Speaker 3 (00:21:05) - Absolutely. In fact, I think on my website it says stop growing and start going because, you know, growth for growth sake is empty. And we have to have a purpose because otherwise it's unhealthy, which causes the stress, which causes you to see post on Facebook that say, you know, I hate managing people.

Speaker 3 (00:21:25) - No, you just don't know how to grow properly. You know, But the growth in your business has to keep up with or I should say your personal growth has to precede your business growth and your business growth cannot go first or exceed you. Otherwise you're always going to be miserable and stressed. But yeah, I see it. And I think that programs that are just, again, just growth for growth sake leave people maybe with more income. Gross Not necessarily net, but. Gross But not fulfilled in the ways that they want to be fulfilled. So I would say that when we talk about growth like you intimated, and that is figure out what that means for you. First, don't let your coach define what that is. You define what that is.

Speaker 2 (00:22:12) - Yeah. And I think that is such an important takeaway because I think that it it absolutely breaks my heart to see how many stressed, sad, miserable business owners there are and that are literally just, I mean, sinking in, just ickiness.

Speaker 3 (00:22:33) - And and I don't mean to laugh at that, but ickiness is a nice word. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:22:36) - I mean, it's really bad though, like, and I'll read things and I'll be in mastermind groups and listen to somebody and I'm just I'm really, I have this huge, just empathetic heart for these people who are going through this just growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. And they are so torn up about what their lives are looking like. And I'm like, guys, we are in an amazing profession. We have such amazing opportunities. We ideally are going to be joyful and content and like and I don't mean content in the sense of you don't want to do other things and you don't have other goals, but just like day to day kind of content in your skin, you know.

Speaker 3 (00:23:19) - I think what sometimes traps people there and why they're so miserable is they don't see that they have other options or that they perhaps created this and they can create it. And so, you know, we all have that choice, right? It's just which difficult choice do we want to make, stay or leave in this situation? So but it's all painful until you get through it, whichever direction you decide to go.

Speaker 2 (00:23:47) - What are some things that you would say like as you've watched the sale and purchase of different law firms? I mean, what are some of the mistakes you've seen? No doubt you had to have seen some people purchase firms that it was like, whoa, that was not a great move. Or, you know, like, what are some of the, you know, just top three things you would say people need to think about?

Speaker 3 (00:24:12) - Well, I would say the biggest heartbreak that I have seen is when a person buys a firm and it's a great firm and then they don't continue the firm in the way that it had become so great. And they either start changing lots of things or they just continue to operate in their own way without taking all the greatness that the firm was. And then that diminishes the culture and the income and the referrals and production, everything. And so I've seen that happen twice now. And it is heartbreaking to the seller who still there to witness that for a period of time.

Speaker 3 (00:24:57) - And there's nothing they can do because, I mean, the new person's not listening. If they were listening, they would have done it differently to begin with. So I would say, number one, if you're going to buy a firm, figure out why you're buying this firm, why this firm? If it's just the income stream, then I would say don't buy the firm. There are so many other ways to make an income stream, but if you want to continue somebodies business and the legacy they've started and the culture, then actually immerse yourself in what they have built and become part of that and then blend over time, but don't do it immediately. That has been the most damaging I've seen. So that's number one. Number two would be a seller who is not vested anymore. And then they are just I wouldn't say. Interfering, but they're interfering through lack of ability to. Have a successful transition. And so even though we might have the perfect buyer, the seller's already blanked out, and that's not helpful to anybody.

Speaker 3 (00:26:06) - So that's why getting started in the process, before you're burned out, before you're ready to just throw it away is number two. And then that kind of piggybacks into number three. And that is there are a lot of sellers that are just like ready just to walk away tomorrow. So they list their property, their property, their law firm, and then they have this expectation that within 3 to 6 months it's going to be sold and somebody else is going to have it. And, you know, it generally takes a little longer than that. Due diligence takes that long. And so to have an unrealistic expectation, just because you're burned out doesn't mean the buyers are just going to come swarming towards you, even though there's a lot more education out there, even though there's people like me out there finding buyers, it still takes time. And so having reasonable expectations is helpful.

Speaker 2 (00:26:53) - That's a really good point. I love that and I love the thought of how you you have to be doing this and doing this positioning well in advance of your burnout period.

Speaker 2 (00:27:04) - Like. Right. Well, talk to us a little bit about I mean, in people who haven't really looked into this might not know when you talk about a seller maybe staying involved in the business, post-sale, what is that called? What what is that looking like? Because it does seem like there's different ways people can structure these sales.

Speaker 3 (00:27:25) - Well, when someone stays afterwards. Historically, what that means to the outside world is that you have done an earnout, which means that you have not paid all up front for the business. And the business has to achieve certain levels of revenue for the seller to continue to get more revenue. And so the seller has an incentive to stay and make the business successful. That's historically what people think of, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I 100% against earnout. I don't think that they actually benefit either side of a transaction ever. But what I am talking about is like a relay race. You know, there's a baton that has to be passed and there has to be two hands on that baton at some point.

Speaker 3 (00:28:13) - You can't just throw it to the next person, not without bobbling it and it falling to the ground and you losing your position. So it's when you've got those two hands on that baton. The thing is, how long is that baton? How long are we going to stay together? Buyers often will want a seller to stay too long, a year or two years or three years or four years or five years. And a seller, They may even some of them will want to stay longer, like a year or two. And from experience, I can share this unless you're doing a merger, which is very different than an acquisition, when you're doing an acquisition, it's like a light switch goes off after the papers have been signed, the mentality completely changes the buyers. The buyer are making decisions, and this isn't the best decision for the firm right now that you've been making all this time. I'm going to come and make it the sellers. Like, Hey, I'm still here, I'm still a valuable person and you're just not listening to me.

Speaker 3 (00:29:11) - You don't respect me. And so, you know, and then the sellers like I have other things I'm interested in. Why am I still here? And so my thing is we want to find out why do we want this transition Now, there are times when the buyer doesn't want to come in and be the lawyer like me. I'm buying a law firm right now. I'm never going to step in and be that lawyer. And so one of the sellers, because it was a partnership, one of the sellers is out immediately. The other seller wants to stay a year, two years, three years. And I know his generation, he doesn't want to go home and I'm okay with that. But because I'm not going to be there on the day to day, I'm still going to operate that firm as if he still owns it. I'm going to respect his decisions. I'm providing support from a leadership standpoint. I will be doing the hiring and and involve him as one of the key individuals. But I'm the one that makes those decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:30:04) - But he still gets to stay and do the things he loves, like meeting with the clients and going to the golf course now and doing some networking. And so I'm going to let him stay as long as he wants to, as long as he's in a role that supports the best interest of the firm, which is networking and all that. But like when my buyer bought my firm, she wanted me to stay two years because she felt insecure in a legal practice area within what we did. And I can get that. But you know, there's close for that and you can call me for that. I don't have to be here every day, you know? So that's what we need to define is why do you want this transition to be long? Where is the gap of knowledge or confidence? And let's see where we can fill that without the person being there.

Speaker 2 (00:30:50) - I love that. Yeah, I think that's so great. It goes, though, to your psychology point. I mean, you got to dig under and figure out what what are the fears, what are the concerns? What is driving people's, you know, decisions? Because I think a lot of times if we stay at that surface level, we're not getting we don't really understand what's going on.

Speaker 2 (00:31:12) - You know, And.

Speaker 3 (00:31:13) - Yes, people like to stay at that surface level.

Speaker 2 (00:31:16) - Oh, my gosh, totally. I was actually having a text conversation with a friend of mine just yesterday, and she was commenting about how she feels like everybody just stays at this shallow level of the universe. And she's like, I can barely do it anymore. Like, it's just so and I'm like, I agree. But I think it takes a certain level of vulnerability, a certain level of I mean, self confidence in your vulnerability, which is kind of a weird kind of mix and then just authenticity, willing to just admit like, yeah, I don't know this or I'm terrified of this or whatever.

Speaker 3 (00:31:57) - Yeah, it does, it does. And through that, being vulnerable enough to say, I don't know that I have all the questions to ask, I don't know where my gaps are or or how this relationship is going to go. And so then they gloss over with, I would say, bravado versus confidence, and then it doesn't go as well as it could go.

Speaker 3 (00:32:21) - So but but I see that everywhere in least as you do you. In our daily lives. We have to be willing to be vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (00:32:28) - Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:32:29) - So and we can't bring that to the office if we haven't practiced it outside of the office, you know? So, yeah, I was teaching one of my newest employees. He's a sales guy, and he was learning, you know, why you make follow up phone calls and all this kind of stuff. And he kept giving me answers, very surface like textbook answers. I said, That's great. Now stop telling me what you think I want to hear. Tell me what I actually want to hear. Go a level deeper. And it's like he didn't know how. So I'm training him on how to go deeper, right?

Speaker 2 (00:33:02) - Well, I think that's so critical in the work we do, especially when you think about working with law firm owners, working with, in my case, family law people, estate planning people. I mean, you're dealing with people's lives.

Speaker 2 (00:33:16) - I mean, like it's hardcore people stuff. Like there's probably there's emotions, there's feelings there. Spears And if we're not willing to dig in, I mean, we are not doing anybody a service because we are just looking at them like a little bot and we are, you know, solving just some surface level issue that might not even touch what the real issues are.

Speaker 3 (00:33:41) - Right? I learned a tool years ago that essentially you ask the same question until you get there, and that is And why is that important to you and why is that important to you? And while the asker feels like, you know, it feels ridiculous to do it, but the person who's actually answering, if they're into it, they don't even realize you're asking the same question over and over because they're finally getting into the emotion of why this is important. Now, when.

Speaker 2 (00:34:07) - People come to you and they want to work with you, let's say it's an owner and they're seeing themselves, you know, maybe I don't know, their kid is almost in college and they're thinking, yeah, I could see getting out of this in a few years.

Speaker 2 (00:34:21) - What are the kind of steps they're going to be taking? I would think. I mean, you're going to have to help evaluate a business or I mean, what does it look like to come work with you?

Speaker 3 (00:34:31) - Sure. So first of all, we got to get a just a baseline as to what is your firm? Who is your firm? What does it look like? Who do you have working for you? What kind of clients do you have? What kind of referral sources, what kind of systems and processes, all that kind of stuff. It's just basically holding a mirror up and reflecting Who are you today? And then it's where do you want to be or what do you think you need in order to live the life that you're trying to get to and seeing, Are we already there? So all we got to do is get this listed or are there things we need to do to position it to get you the value you need so you can take that next step? And so if we are already there because that's the easier path is we still need the valuation because you're going to list it for a price and then you have to justify that price.

Speaker 3 (00:35:20) - So we do a valuation and then we do a marketing package, if you will. And so if you're working with us to help you sell it, we actually then have a team of professionals who are very proactive and reach out to prospective buyers or sellers, depending on which side we're on. And we phone call, we email, we do direct mail, things like that. And so that's why our process sometimes is faster, although we can't guarantee any speed whatsoever. But faster than just listing your business on a site like this, buy, sell if you have to position it and if you want or need it to be worth more, then we actually look at in what areas of your firm would be most beneficial to increase the value. Like you wouldn't go in and rehab a living room, you would rehab the bathrooms in the kitchen. Right. And so we look at the firm for the bathrooms and kitchen areas to rehab. And then we also have to consider what timing, because some people may be like, well, there's this gap here, but I can't wait five years.

Speaker 3 (00:36:19) - I have to do this like by a year from now. Okay, then let's fast track that. There was actually one firm that I've spoken with most recently and they said, well, within the in the next three years, we want to be able to sell it for 3 million. And I said, Well, then I can do the valuation for now to see where your gap is. I know where your income is right now, but I'm not the right person to get you to the three in such an accelerated pace. There are other organizations out there that could probably help you with that. You come back after you're done. So because I can coach people and I do coach people, especially estate planning firms, but also other types of firms as well. When we are looking at systematic structured growth or just specific areas of the firm that need to be positioned well. But I'm not the right kind of coach. If you need to accelerate your income in a short period of time.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13) - Now, if somebody is trying to sell their firm, let's say like this person for $3 million, is there a certain ratios you're looking at where you're like, okay, your income needs to be $6 Million to sell it for 3 million? Or I mean, I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (00:37:28) - This is not something I've looked into. So I'm curious and I know a lot of people are curious because people are always I mean, you just see people all the time and you just get tagged in a million things when people are talking about selling their firm.

Speaker 3 (00:37:44) - Certainly this weekend was a nice weekend. So so I would say that there's certainly rules of thumb. There's, you know, targets you'll hear three times EBITDA, which is earnings before taxes and depreciation and amortization. So I would say, first of all, the type of firm, the services you provide. Are going to have an effect on that. So there's some services that are going to have a higher multiple than other services. For example, I'd say estate planning, trademark business law, those are going to have higher multiples than, for example, P.I. or maybe even family law that are heavy litigation, one time transactions. But you're looking at in general terms, one time. Gross Or about 2.8 times net. But the net is the weird one because net can be manipulated so easily with how much you put into your IRA or how much you, you know, flow through for a tax purpose, but not necessarily a business purpose.

Speaker 3 (00:38:45) - Purpose. So now when when we are doing our valuations, we rely heavily on what's called sellers discretionary earnings. And that's basically doing a recast of all that personal stuff back in and making it net.

Speaker 2 (00:38:59) - That makes good sense. Yeah. Is that and that's kind of like I think what a lot of people refer to as total owner benefit. Are those kind of the same thing, correct?

Speaker 3 (00:39:08) - It is. It is the same thing. However, one of the things that people don't think about, and that is the salary of the owner who's leaving. And sometimes people take W-2 salary, sometimes people don't, and they just pull from the net. And sometimes when they do take from the salary, they're paying themselves either $30,000 a year or they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. And so that is an owner benefit for sure. But we also have to look at, well, what would it cost to replace you with somebody and not just as a lawyer, but you're also the CEO and you're also this and that, that and the other.

Speaker 3 (00:39:46) - So we do a lot of figuring to to make that real for a buyer's perspective.

Speaker 2 (00:39:53) - Yeah, that makes really good sense to me. Well, I've thought that when people do those tiny salaries as a lawyer, like if they're the CEO, I'm always thinking that is going to be interesting. If ever somebody has to come in and replace you. Because I mean, finding a CEO for $30,000 a year might not be your best hire.

Speaker 3 (00:40:14) - Good luck with that. But doesn't it make your profit look so much higher right now?

Speaker 2 (00:40:17) - Right. Exactly. I find I have to tell you, this is an area of law firm ownership that I find so fascinating is understanding the numbers. Like, I mean, like 2AT, and I am kind of a freak. I mean, my my bookkeeper and CFO team will tell you, like, I literally play these mind games. I'm like, okay, if we're 2% off on our forecast, like, where did we go wrong? And, you know, like, I want to be like dead on and really understand our numbers.

Speaker 2 (00:40:49) - And then I hear other lawyers and they're like, Yeah, I haven't seen my pal since January. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I would be like a hair on fire, like cat on the ceiling kind of person.

Speaker 3 (00:41:03) - Last week I talked to someone who doesn't even have panels. I'm like, What? What, what? I'm not understanding. Like, just send me your taxes, then just send me your taxes. How do you operate this way?

Speaker 2 (00:41:15) - Oh, my gosh. Oh, there's no way. I'm like, I am getting hives when it's like the sixth day of the month and I don't have my PNL because my people are like, We can get it on the ninth. And my last person always had it on the fifth. And I'm like, okay, I'm trying to go for your ninth thing. Like I'm, I'm trying to, you know, be there. But by the seventh, I'm always like, So do you have it a little like.

Speaker 3 (00:41:40) - It's like a button.

Speaker 3 (00:41:41) - And QuickBooks just brought it to me.

Speaker 2 (00:41:43) - I'm just like, I'm so pathetic.

Speaker 3 (00:41:47) - I'm with you, though. I always in my law firm, I always got it on the sixth. And if it wasn't there on the sixth, man, I was like, calling pound and desks.

Speaker 2 (00:41:54) - Yeah, well, I think it matters. And I to me, it's a almost like a safety blanket kind of thing. Like a security blanket. I mean, I know exactly what's going on, so if something is going awry, I'm going to know it quickly. And I mean, and I'm going to even have other things more than monthly where I'm going to know if things are going awry. Do you know, so that levers can be pulled?

Speaker 3 (00:42:18) - Well, you want to see the trends. Absolutely it's not. And that's the thing, though, is even those that have the panels, those that look at their panels, often they are just looking to see how did we do? They are not looking at it at a strategic way to see what is the trend and where's the forecast going.

Speaker 3 (00:42:36) - And so their businesses could be so much different if they were forecasting versus just historical. How do I do? Did I check the box? Do I get to pat myself on the back today or not?

Speaker 2 (00:42:46) - Oh, my gosh. I love my forecast to tool. We run a 13 month, you know rolling forecast and I mean it is by far my biggest self competition you know but I find the forecast. Casting tool to be powerful in allowing you to look at things strategically and make those strategic decisions. Because, I mean, you've got everything in front of you, every little thing. And I mean, you can pull levers all around and see what is happening, you know, what it will do to numbers and how it will impact things. And I think it allows you to look at trends right there in your face. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (00:43:28) - Like I do. I do. And but what we hear all the time is from lawyers. I'm not good at numbers. I don't like numbers.

Speaker 3 (00:43:35) - Also can't tell you the number of people who have told me that, that when we then focused on the numbers and they actually started producing results, they liked, they loved being in their numbers. And so what I really take from that is what you don't like is the results you're getting. And that's why you don't like numbers. That's why you don't like to get in there. Because if they produce differently, you would love it.

Speaker 2 (00:43:55) - Well, and I think I think a lot of us lawyers joke about going to law school because we didn't have to do math. I mean, I was definitely one of those weird lawyers. I thought I was going to be a biomedical engineer. So I was all about math. Like I was totally into math. I kind of got the end of my calculus brain, though, and I was like, Whoa, I don't think I can do any more of this calculus stuff. Like, I am tapping out. But our math is all simple, you know what I mean? Multiplication, adding a little, dividing some percentages, like, you know, it's basic.

Speaker 2 (00:44:27) - I feel like you get through sixth grade in seventh grade and we're good with our math like.

Speaker 3 (00:44:33) - Nothing that a basic calculator can't do or map.

Speaker 2 (00:44:36) - Exactly. Exactly. And so yeah, I tend to think it might be a little bit of an excuse because we got that. We definitely have seventh grade math, I think. Yeah. So. Well, I really appreciate your time today. It just I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And I know there are so many people out there that are either thinking of buying firms, thinking of selling firms. I mean, it's a point of conversation practically in every setting I attend. And so I just am really happy we were able to bring you on and talk about quid pro quo and what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Speaker 3 (00:45:14) - Thank you. I'm glad I was able to answer all your questions for all your people.

Speaker 2 (00:45:18) - Yes, indeed. Well, and I hope you now have your kids. They have gone back to school right in.

Speaker 3 (00:45:24) - They started last Thursday.

Speaker 3 (00:45:25) - So, yes, this is the first full week starting today.

Speaker 2 (00:45:28) - So you're like living it up this week, huh?

Speaker 3 (00:45:30) - That's right. Just free as a bird.

Speaker 2 (00:45:35) - Okay. Well, enjoy and enjoy the rest of your week. Now, do tell our listeners and we'll add it in the notes. Where can people reach you? What is the best way for somebody to reach you?

Speaker 3 (00:45:45) - Well, the best way to become aware of our community is through our private Facebook group called The Art of Buying and Selling a law firm or law firms and otherwise. Our website is quid pro quo law.com.

Speaker 2 (00:45:58) - Okay, perfect. Well, great. Well thanks again and enjoy the rest of your week and take care of those goats in that tractor and all the things.

Speaker 3 (00:46:07) - All the things. Thank you so much, Elise.

Speaker 1 (00:46:10) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast, a production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Victoria Collier. 

Victoria Collier, Founder and CEO of Quid Pro Quo: Victoria is a seasoned entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in the legal industry. In addition to building and selling her own 7-figure law firm, she has been coaching lawyers since 2008 on how to add value to their law firms.

Take a listen!

Episode Highlights:

  • 08:15 Victoria Collier discusses how having children has influenced her entrepreneurial journey and the motivation it provides to show her children they can pursue their dreams
  • 11:50 Introduction to Victoria Collier's business, Quid Pro Quo, which assists law firm owners in selling or buying law firms, focusing on finding a perfect match between buyers and sellers
  • 18:51 The importance of being true to yourself and finding fulfillment in your work and personal life
  • 19:56 The dangers of pursuing growth without considering personal values and alignment with clients
  • 24:12 The importance of preserving the culture and legacy of a law firm when buying or selling, and the need for realistic expectations and a successful transition process
  • 29:11 Discussion on the transition timeline when buying or selling a law firm, including the importance of respecting the seller's decisions and allowing them to stay as long as they want
  • 30:50 Exploring the importance of going beyond surface-level conversations and understanding the fears and concerns that drive people's decisions
  • 34:31 Steps involved in working with the speaker to evaluate and position a law firm for sale, including assessing the current state of the firm, determining the desired outcome, conducting a valuation, and creating a marketing package.
  • 37:44 Discusses the rules of thumb for valuing law firms based on the services provided and the multiple of earnings before taxes and depreciation and amortization (EBITDA).
  • 38:45 Explains the concept of sellers discretionary earnings and how it involves recasting personal expenses back into the net income of the law firm.
  • 42:18 Emphasizes the significance of financial forecasting for law firms, including the ability to analyze trends, make strategic decisions, and understand the impact on the numbers.


📹 Watch the interview here.

Connect with Victoria:

Resources:

Transcripts: Avoiding Common Mistakes When Buying or Selling Law Firms with Victoria Collier

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maximum Mom with Elise Buey, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Speaker 2 (00:00:29) - Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast. And today I am so excited to have my friend and colleague Victoria Collier. Thanks, Victoria, for joining me today. Thanks, Elise. It's always a pleasure. Yeah, well, I'm so excited to talk to you. I feel like I have so many things I need to ask you about. I mean, there are just burning questions. I think that many of us would like to know the answer to. So I have just appointed myself as the person who's going to ask them all. Well, now you've set the bar up so.

Speaker 3 (00:01:01) - High, I'm not sure I can read that.

Speaker 2 (00:01:07) - Okay. First, I always like to just get over that. Tell us what your family looks like. You know, obviously, we're the maximum Mom podcast, so we talk to mostly moms. Of course, I deviate some, but so tell me, tell me what makes up your family? What do you all look like at home?

Speaker 3 (00:01:24) - Yeah. So at home, my parents sorry, my children. We don't need to go all the way back to my parents. But my children have two moms, so one of them was a prosecutor for 15 years before we had our children. And then she has been a stay at home mom since then and does part time work doing independent college counseling. And I, on the other hand, am a full time entrepreneur, juggling multiple businesses. And then we've got the the children that are 13 years old in eighth grade, a boy and a girl. Love and life at the moment. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:02) - You are like hardcore in the thick of mommy Big. Big.

Speaker 2 (00:02:08) - Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:02:08) - Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:10) - Yeah, Well, you first You have to tell those of us. Some people might not know what you and your daughter did this summer. So, I mean, just give us a brief snippet of the adventure you all did. That involved flights, cars, animals.

Speaker 3 (00:02:25) - Right. So we so we live in Atlanta and we have a three and a half acre farm with goats and chickens. And it just so happens that the best goat ever is in the state of Oregon. So we flew first class out to Oregon and then rented a vehicle so that we could pick up. It was two goats, actually two goats from a farm out there. And then we traveled back in the car having to camp on the side of the road because you can't, you know, have goats and hotel. And so part of the adventure was that one place where we stopped to camp and, you know, not knowing how far we could drive and how the trip was going to go, we made no advance reservations anywhere.

Speaker 3 (00:03:11) - It's just kind of like, Hey, let's just stop somewhere. Well, one night there was tornadoes and and so we pitch a tent at this site that we find right at like, dusk. And we're, you know, pitching the tent and then the the park wardens or whatever you want to call them, come driving through and they see this goat and they're talking to my daughter and I'm like, Don't be talking to my daughter. And they're like, Nice goat. You can't have livestock at a national park in us. Like it's dark and there's a tornado coming and they're like, Just hide the goat. And so we did. So anyway, we saw Mount Rushmore. We went to Yellowstone, and it was I drove 100 miles an hour. It was an amazing trip.

Speaker 2 (00:03:58) - Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. And I was so thrilled to be able to see you as you embarked on this journey just for a moment and to buy some of the goat soap that your daughter is making Now, I'm able to share that with people who come to my home for retreat.

Speaker 2 (00:04:12) - So it's kind of exciting because then they get to know and learn about your goat adventure, which I just I mean, you're like a mom after my own heart. I was that mom that was like, okay, we're going to go to camp now. And at the time we lived in Minnesota and camp was in Tennessee, and my kids were like, okay, do we have a map? I'm like, No, we're following the signs itself. I'm like, It is good. Like, we would just get on I-35 and I'm like, We'll just look for signs that mention Southern states, and that's where we're going. And we will get to Tennessee and it'll be all fine.

Speaker 3 (00:04:50) - Well, the amazing thing is being able to see friends, you know, while you're out of town and make those special trips and all that kind of stuff. And my daughter. So appreciate it and I appreciate it. You coming and making time to come see us and everything. So I love I love being able to have my own business, being able to take off time.

Speaker 3 (00:05:08) - I want to and go see the people I want to that I've worked hard with in the business world. Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:05:15) - Well, and I just think it's amazing to to have your daughter come along and do something like that and to also listen to your daughter. I mean, sit there and talk to us about how she found the goats and how she, you know, figured this out. I mean, talk about a little entrepreneur in the making. I mean, like you just need the driver's license. She's got the rest all planned out. And which, again, reminds me so much of my oldest daughter, who I mean, I was just like, okay, you just do your life. Let me know when I'm supposed to be involved. Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (00:05:52) - I'll just share this real quick. Is that, yes, she is a little entrepreneur, but because I am one, she'll tell you that she's not going to be one. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:05:59) - So absolutely. Of course not. She's probably looking for like a steady job, steady pay, like a more steady thing.

Speaker 2 (00:06:08) - Yeah. I mean, we kind of joke in our family. I mean, we don't know if being an entrepreneur was a traumatic experience for the children or or a positive experience. I mean, you know, but that's just, I think, real life, too, you know, And I it's interesting. I mean, talking to you, you're a great person. I saw something recently on social media and somebody was talking about how, you know, they had this practice they'd been involved in. And I don't remember all the details, nor do I mean to like be specific and share the details. But, you know, they had had like a job, a W2 job for years and years, and they're like, Oh, I want to now go out and start my own firm so I can have flexibility and this and that. And it was like, Oh my. Like.

Speaker 3 (00:06:52) - What do we show have you been watching?

Speaker 2 (00:06:55) - I literally was like, I don't begin to know where to start to respond to this person.

Speaker 2 (00:07:01) - I was like, Well, if your flexibility includes 100 hour work weeks, you know, absolute. Stress over cash flow, like the actual learning that you have to do. You know, throw in 10,000 books you need to read because they didn't mention any of this in law school. If that is flexibility, girl, you go for it. You got this.

Speaker 3 (00:07:23) - That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:07:24) - I mean, it is a process of real process. Well, I really I mean, one thing I do want to talk to you about is and I think that I've heard you talk about this a lot of times, I think people think about entrepreneurship, you know, when they have young children because of the flexibility and stuff. And and I do think there is some real truth to the flexibility of, you know, being able to guide your life like, you know, what are you going to do? And are you going to show up for a school event or whatever? I mean, but I found my children's presence very much drove me in what I was doing because, like, I mean, I needed to pay some bills, like kids were looking at tuition in college and all the things.

Speaker 2 (00:08:10) - I mean, what about you? How has having your children impacted your entrepreneurial journey?

Speaker 3 (00:08:15) - Somewhat. Just like what you're saying is that, you know, you hear a lot of people say, I can't do that because I have kids. I do it because I have kids and it motivates me. And as you know, my entrepreneur journey hasn't been one business that has just gone forward. It's been multiple businesses in different industries. And I think more than anything, as I look through it, especially as they become teenagers and they're starting to think about who they are becoming, the biggest impact, I'd have to say, is that. Even more now is I don't want to hold back because I want to show them that they can do anything. They can't do everything. That's where, you know, teams and delegation come in. But but they can do anything and they don't have to stick with one thing they can change to. We are more than one job. We are more than one skill set. And I would have to say that that's been the biggest impact.

Speaker 3 (00:09:15) - Knowing that I have two little ones looking at everything I do every day.

Speaker 2 (00:09:19) - Oh, I mean, amen to that. It is I find it has been wild to watch how much your children do watch you good, bad and ugly. You know, and obviously and I'm know you, too, like me. I mean, I'm making mistakes over here all the time. You know what I mean? Like on the Daily. I mean, on the hourly, you know, I'm flinging off some mistake something and they are watching all the things. And it's interesting because when mine, when I got to that empty nester syndrome or period, I literally thought, oh, I'm on the back end of all this. Little did I realize these young adult people are watching like a hawk because now they're really like, okay, you know, what am I going to do with my life? What is. So any thought that, you know, once they go off to school, you can like, you know, kick your heels up and they're not watching? Let me assure you, that ain't the case.

Speaker 3 (00:10:20) - There's Well, just like you're still watching them like a hawk, like mothers do. Yeah. They're, you know, which is good. You know, it should be that way.

Speaker 2 (00:10:30) - Yeah, it is. It's an interesting journey, though. And I have found actually said to my husband the other day that I think owning a business has been the biggest impetus for personal development by far of anything I've ever done. And that alone is worth the entrepreneurial journey.

Speaker 3 (00:10:50) - Right. And, you know, I think and that comes down to like you hear the term coaching all the time. And I meet lawyers that have gone ten, 20, 30 years without any coaches at all. And I think where they missed the boat often and even just listening to podcasts and things like that is that coaching isn't often about the business, it's about your growth and how you uplevel you so that then the business does what you want it to do with results. And so you're right. I mean, to me it's all personal development.

Speaker 3 (00:11:25) - I just happen to have a business on the side that's coming along and supporting that, Right?

Speaker 2 (00:11:29) - So exactly. I think that's exactly right. Well, let's talk a little bit about your current business that you're running that's related to law firms. I know you are involved in different business adventures now, but you have one business that is related to law firm positioning, law firm sales. How would you how would you describe that overall?

Speaker 3 (00:11:50) - The business is called quid pro quo, which means equal exchange of value. And so the crux of what we do is we help law firm owners sell or buy law firms, and we're looking for a perfect match between buyers and sellers, which does bring equal value to both sides.

Speaker 2 (00:12:07) - Awesome. And what what type of things? I mean, what are you looking at and what is your own experience in this? Because you do bring a unique skill set to this area having sold and I think bought your own.

Speaker 3 (00:12:22) - In the process of. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:12:24) - So tell us a little bit about that and what your experience brings to the table in this.

Speaker 3 (00:12:30) - So I started my own law firm in 2002, so I built a law firm from scratch right out of law school. I had that for 18 years and then sold it. And before I sold it, I was doing estate planning, which is really exit planning for personal life. And so it wasn't a big change to go to exit planning for business. And so I got credentials in that and then credentials and valuations so that I could determine what the value of a business would be, specifically law firms. And so I sold my business and I had been coaching lawyers for years and years in the Estate planning, Veterans Benefits World. And many of my students, if you will, were older than I was. And so they had heard that I had sold my law firm. They're contacting me to find out how do I do that? Because historically you didn't you just closed your doors. You just handed your open files to your buddy down the street. And so my very first client was an estate planning firm right in my backyard where she had called me to see if I wanted to buy her firm.

Speaker 3 (00:13:35) - And I said, Well, that would be lovely, except I'm under a conflict of interest because I just sold mine. And, you know, there's ethics rules that you have to abide by. And so we were able to sell her firm all cash up front with a short term exit. And that was what started it all. And so now, yes, I am in the process of buying a law firm as well. And even when I owned my own law firm, I went through the process of trying to buy another one. So I had some experience in that. It just didn't complete at that time. And so we do help other law firms by law firms as well. And I would say at least though, that the thread through all of it is that my background has some psychology in it and communication and mediation, and that is all very helpful with. This type of relationships because emotions run high on both sides.

Speaker 2 (00:14:28) - Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Well, tell us a little bit about I mean, why did you decide to sell your law firm? Like, you know, I know a lot of people, they want to know, like if you're running a successful law firm, why would you leave? Why wouldn't you just continue to run it, you know, earn the money off of it, have somebody else do the day to day.

Speaker 3 (00:14:48) - I'll share a little differently today than I ever have in the past. And which is all still true. Everything is true. Just you get more layers of the onion as you talk about it. But ultimately, I had considered exiting my practice a few times before I did, and something always kept me there. And then I was looking to hire someone as a professional legal administrator to really get my office shaped up in a way that I could not do because I'm the visionary I cannot implement and systems. I believe in them. I cannot create them. And so when I was interviewing this, these people, one of them, the personality test, the guy said, hey, she's going to want to take over your business. And I'm like, That was the first time. I'm like, Really? When it you know, he said it was like, was a bad thing. So that really gave me some hope of spark of hope with some stuff that I had pushed to the end. And then I was on stage giving a about to give a presentation and this woman was heckling me and I was like, I don't need this.

Speaker 3 (00:15:53) - You know, I just don't need this. But ultimately what was happening and this is the new information, what was happening behind the scenes was my plan was definitely getting my business in shape, and it was definitely going in a great business direction. But personality wise, we were very different and I knew that the two of us could not lead the firm with me as visionary and her as PLA. And I knew that she wanted her own firm and all that, coupled with my daughter getting horses and us getting a farm. And didn't it just feel better to be on the farm? And it did. And I thought, You know what? There's only one letter difference in farm and firm. I'm just going to go to the farm and sell the farm. And it got harder and harder to come back, right? And then it was beautiful timing because the pandemic hit. And so then we could just spend all of our time out there. And it's been I just could see all the possibilities with my kids out there and working from there.

Speaker 3 (00:16:52) - And there was no decision after that.

Speaker 2 (00:16:55) - Good for you. Yeah, Well, I think it's I think it is really interesting. And I think as law firm owners, there's so much shoulds in our head about what we should be doing. And I think many of us ended up in law school based on a should, you know, like a lot of times I think people, they get out of high school, they go to college, they go to graduate school. And and they haven't really stopped to think like, what do I want to do? Like, what am I trying to do? So I love that you were able to step back a little and really think about it. And and I mean, personally, I'm with you. Farm and firm. They're just so similar. Like barely a difference, right?

Speaker 3 (00:17:37) - That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:17:38) - I mean, you're wrangling horses in one place and you're wrangling people in another. Like it's all the same.

Speaker 3 (00:17:44) - Yeah. You know, I mean, it took a lot of mental work to get there because it's not even just the shoulds, but it's with everyone watching you, with me having had a presence in the legal community forever with I mean, I remember one lawyer telling me one time something about I'm not going to get his words quite right, but basically you bounce around from here to there with different interests.

Speaker 3 (00:18:09) - And the way he said it, it was I did not take it as a compliment. I took it kind of like she can't ever figure it out. She can't complete anything. And that's not at all how he meant it, because I did ask him about that. But he says, No, you're inspiring because because you can do these things and you don't limit yourself based on, you know, what you people think you should do. Yeah, but it does it. That doesn't mean that it's not inside and has to be dealt with because it does. You see yourself as a failure, I guess is the bottom way to say it is. You know, I'm not still practicing after 30 years. I must be a failure. Why? Why can't I just keep enjoying this? Right.

Speaker 2 (00:18:51) - Yeah. But I think it is so just insightful to realize that sometimes you're waking up in the morning. I mean, and if it's morning after morning and you're not, like, fired up to go to the firm and you'd rather be at the farm, like, I mean, good on you do, you know, for being able to make that decision and stand strong in what you believe in? I think it's really powerful.

Speaker 2 (00:19:14) - I mean, it's the ultimate anti people pleasing.

Speaker 3 (00:19:18) - Right? And then you have your family to answer to. And why is mommy not to? Taking clients anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:19:25) - So, yeah, because she's wrangling horses and dealing with goat adventures, right?

Speaker 3 (00:19:30) - That's right. You know, it certainly changed the dinnertime conversation because my kids literally because we've always talked money, we've always talked business. And so it was not uncommon for me to sit down at the dinner table and have one of my children ask me, So, Mommy, how much money did you make today? And so for two years, I didn't have to hear that.

Speaker 2 (00:19:49) - Right, Exactly. Instead, you could talk about how much poop did you shovel?

Speaker 3 (00:19:53) - That's right. How many plants did I plant?

Speaker 2 (00:19:56) - Yes, indeed. Well, one of the other things you bring up, I think, is about coaches. And I think there is a real plethora of people that just talk about grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And it is one of the things I personally really struggle with because I think we don't.

Speaker 2 (00:20:16) - We don't fully explain what grow, grow, grow, grow, grow can look like. And I think all growth is not equal. I mean, you know, there is growth that is very solid, like people's numbers are and their ratios are excellent. The business is healthy and that is good and there is growth that gets very quickly out of control and people's numbers go a little crazy. And and there's just all kinds of things that can happen. So I think that it's important to really hearken back to what is aligned with the client, you know, and when coaches are coaching people, I mean, how have you dealt with that? No doubt you have come across that grow, grow, grow mentality just as I have.

Speaker 3 (00:21:05) - Absolutely. In fact, I think on my website it says stop growing and start going because, you know, growth for growth sake is empty. And we have to have a purpose because otherwise it's unhealthy, which causes the stress, which causes you to see post on Facebook that say, you know, I hate managing people.

Speaker 3 (00:21:25) - No, you just don't know how to grow properly. You know, But the growth in your business has to keep up with or I should say your personal growth has to precede your business growth and your business growth cannot go first or exceed you. Otherwise you're always going to be miserable and stressed. But yeah, I see it. And I think that programs that are just, again, just growth for growth sake leave people maybe with more income. Gross Not necessarily net, but. Gross But not fulfilled in the ways that they want to be fulfilled. So I would say that when we talk about growth like you intimated, and that is figure out what that means for you. First, don't let your coach define what that is. You define what that is.

Speaker 2 (00:22:12) - Yeah. And I think that is such an important takeaway because I think that it it absolutely breaks my heart to see how many stressed, sad, miserable business owners there are and that are literally just, I mean, sinking in, just ickiness.

Speaker 3 (00:22:33) - And and I don't mean to laugh at that, but ickiness is a nice word. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:22:36) - I mean, it's really bad though, like, and I'll read things and I'll be in mastermind groups and listen to somebody and I'm just I'm really, I have this huge, just empathetic heart for these people who are going through this just growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. And they are so torn up about what their lives are looking like. And I'm like, guys, we are in an amazing profession. We have such amazing opportunities. We ideally are going to be joyful and content and like and I don't mean content in the sense of you don't want to do other things and you don't have other goals, but just like day to day kind of content in your skin, you know.

Speaker 3 (00:23:19) - I think what sometimes traps people there and why they're so miserable is they don't see that they have other options or that they perhaps created this and they can create it. And so, you know, we all have that choice, right? It's just which difficult choice do we want to make, stay or leave in this situation? So but it's all painful until you get through it, whichever direction you decide to go.

Speaker 2 (00:23:47) - What are some things that you would say like as you've watched the sale and purchase of different law firms? I mean, what are some of the mistakes you've seen? No doubt you had to have seen some people purchase firms that it was like, whoa, that was not a great move. Or, you know, like, what are some of the, you know, just top three things you would say people need to think about?

Speaker 3 (00:24:12) - Well, I would say the biggest heartbreak that I have seen is when a person buys a firm and it's a great firm and then they don't continue the firm in the way that it had become so great. And they either start changing lots of things or they just continue to operate in their own way without taking all the greatness that the firm was. And then that diminishes the culture and the income and the referrals and production, everything. And so I've seen that happen twice now. And it is heartbreaking to the seller who still there to witness that for a period of time.

Speaker 3 (00:24:57) - And there's nothing they can do because, I mean, the new person's not listening. If they were listening, they would have done it differently to begin with. So I would say, number one, if you're going to buy a firm, figure out why you're buying this firm, why this firm? If it's just the income stream, then I would say don't buy the firm. There are so many other ways to make an income stream, but if you want to continue somebodies business and the legacy they've started and the culture, then actually immerse yourself in what they have built and become part of that and then blend over time, but don't do it immediately. That has been the most damaging I've seen. So that's number one. Number two would be a seller who is not vested anymore. And then they are just I wouldn't say. Interfering, but they're interfering through lack of ability to. Have a successful transition. And so even though we might have the perfect buyer, the seller's already blanked out, and that's not helpful to anybody.

Speaker 3 (00:26:06) - So that's why getting started in the process, before you're burned out, before you're ready to just throw it away is number two. And then that kind of piggybacks into number three. And that is there are a lot of sellers that are just like ready just to walk away tomorrow. So they list their property, their property, their law firm, and then they have this expectation that within 3 to 6 months it's going to be sold and somebody else is going to have it. And, you know, it generally takes a little longer than that. Due diligence takes that long. And so to have an unrealistic expectation, just because you're burned out doesn't mean the buyers are just going to come swarming towards you, even though there's a lot more education out there, even though there's people like me out there finding buyers, it still takes time. And so having reasonable expectations is helpful.

Speaker 2 (00:26:53) - That's a really good point. I love that and I love the thought of how you you have to be doing this and doing this positioning well in advance of your burnout period.

Speaker 2 (00:27:04) - Like. Right. Well, talk to us a little bit about I mean, in people who haven't really looked into this might not know when you talk about a seller maybe staying involved in the business, post-sale, what is that called? What what is that looking like? Because it does seem like there's different ways people can structure these sales.

Speaker 3 (00:27:25) - Well, when someone stays afterwards. Historically, what that means to the outside world is that you have done an earnout, which means that you have not paid all up front for the business. And the business has to achieve certain levels of revenue for the seller to continue to get more revenue. And so the seller has an incentive to stay and make the business successful. That's historically what people think of, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I 100% against earnout. I don't think that they actually benefit either side of a transaction ever. But what I am talking about is like a relay race. You know, there's a baton that has to be passed and there has to be two hands on that baton at some point.

Speaker 3 (00:28:13) - You can't just throw it to the next person, not without bobbling it and it falling to the ground and you losing your position. So it's when you've got those two hands on that baton. The thing is, how long is that baton? How long are we going to stay together? Buyers often will want a seller to stay too long, a year or two years or three years or four years or five years. And a seller, They may even some of them will want to stay longer, like a year or two. And from experience, I can share this unless you're doing a merger, which is very different than an acquisition, when you're doing an acquisition, it's like a light switch goes off after the papers have been signed, the mentality completely changes the buyers. The buyer are making decisions, and this isn't the best decision for the firm right now that you've been making all this time. I'm going to come and make it the sellers. Like, Hey, I'm still here, I'm still a valuable person and you're just not listening to me.

Speaker 3 (00:29:11) - You don't respect me. And so, you know, and then the sellers like I have other things I'm interested in. Why am I still here? And so my thing is we want to find out why do we want this transition Now, there are times when the buyer doesn't want to come in and be the lawyer like me. I'm buying a law firm right now. I'm never going to step in and be that lawyer. And so one of the sellers, because it was a partnership, one of the sellers is out immediately. The other seller wants to stay a year, two years, three years. And I know his generation, he doesn't want to go home and I'm okay with that. But because I'm not going to be there on the day to day, I'm still going to operate that firm as if he still owns it. I'm going to respect his decisions. I'm providing support from a leadership standpoint. I will be doing the hiring and and involve him as one of the key individuals. But I'm the one that makes those decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:30:04) - But he still gets to stay and do the things he loves, like meeting with the clients and going to the golf course now and doing some networking. And so I'm going to let him stay as long as he wants to, as long as he's in a role that supports the best interest of the firm, which is networking and all that. But like when my buyer bought my firm, she wanted me to stay two years because she felt insecure in a legal practice area within what we did. And I can get that. But you know, there's close for that and you can call me for that. I don't have to be here every day, you know? So that's what we need to define is why do you want this transition to be long? Where is the gap of knowledge or confidence? And let's see where we can fill that without the person being there.

Speaker 2 (00:30:50) - I love that. Yeah, I think that's so great. It goes, though, to your psychology point. I mean, you got to dig under and figure out what what are the fears, what are the concerns? What is driving people's, you know, decisions? Because I think a lot of times if we stay at that surface level, we're not getting we don't really understand what's going on.

Speaker 2 (00:31:12) - You know, And.

Speaker 3 (00:31:13) - Yes, people like to stay at that surface level.

Speaker 2 (00:31:16) - Oh, my gosh, totally. I was actually having a text conversation with a friend of mine just yesterday, and she was commenting about how she feels like everybody just stays at this shallow level of the universe. And she's like, I can barely do it anymore. Like, it's just so and I'm like, I agree. But I think it takes a certain level of vulnerability, a certain level of I mean, self confidence in your vulnerability, which is kind of a weird kind of mix and then just authenticity, willing to just admit like, yeah, I don't know this or I'm terrified of this or whatever.

Speaker 3 (00:31:57) - Yeah, it does, it does. And through that, being vulnerable enough to say, I don't know that I have all the questions to ask, I don't know where my gaps are or or how this relationship is going to go. And so then they gloss over with, I would say, bravado versus confidence, and then it doesn't go as well as it could go.

Speaker 3 (00:32:21) - So but but I see that everywhere in least as you do you. In our daily lives. We have to be willing to be vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (00:32:28) - Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:32:29) - So and we can't bring that to the office if we haven't practiced it outside of the office, you know? So, yeah, I was teaching one of my newest employees. He's a sales guy, and he was learning, you know, why you make follow up phone calls and all this kind of stuff. And he kept giving me answers, very surface like textbook answers. I said, That's great. Now stop telling me what you think I want to hear. Tell me what I actually want to hear. Go a level deeper. And it's like he didn't know how. So I'm training him on how to go deeper, right?

Speaker 2 (00:33:02) - Well, I think that's so critical in the work we do, especially when you think about working with law firm owners, working with, in my case, family law people, estate planning people. I mean, you're dealing with people's lives.

Speaker 2 (00:33:16) - I mean, like it's hardcore people stuff. Like there's probably there's emotions, there's feelings there. Spears And if we're not willing to dig in, I mean, we are not doing anybody a service because we are just looking at them like a little bot and we are, you know, solving just some surface level issue that might not even touch what the real issues are.

Speaker 3 (00:33:41) - Right? I learned a tool years ago that essentially you ask the same question until you get there, and that is And why is that important to you and why is that important to you? And while the asker feels like, you know, it feels ridiculous to do it, but the person who's actually answering, if they're into it, they don't even realize you're asking the same question over and over because they're finally getting into the emotion of why this is important. Now, when.

Speaker 2 (00:34:07) - People come to you and they want to work with you, let's say it's an owner and they're seeing themselves, you know, maybe I don't know, their kid is almost in college and they're thinking, yeah, I could see getting out of this in a few years.

Speaker 2 (00:34:21) - What are the kind of steps they're going to be taking? I would think. I mean, you're going to have to help evaluate a business or I mean, what does it look like to come work with you?

Speaker 3 (00:34:31) - Sure. So first of all, we got to get a just a baseline as to what is your firm? Who is your firm? What does it look like? Who do you have working for you? What kind of clients do you have? What kind of referral sources, what kind of systems and processes, all that kind of stuff. It's just basically holding a mirror up and reflecting Who are you today? And then it's where do you want to be or what do you think you need in order to live the life that you're trying to get to and seeing, Are we already there? So all we got to do is get this listed or are there things we need to do to position it to get you the value you need so you can take that next step? And so if we are already there because that's the easier path is we still need the valuation because you're going to list it for a price and then you have to justify that price.

Speaker 3 (00:35:20) - So we do a valuation and then we do a marketing package, if you will. And so if you're working with us to help you sell it, we actually then have a team of professionals who are very proactive and reach out to prospective buyers or sellers, depending on which side we're on. And we phone call, we email, we do direct mail, things like that. And so that's why our process sometimes is faster, although we can't guarantee any speed whatsoever. But faster than just listing your business on a site like this, buy, sell if you have to position it and if you want or need it to be worth more, then we actually look at in what areas of your firm would be most beneficial to increase the value. Like you wouldn't go in and rehab a living room, you would rehab the bathrooms in the kitchen. Right. And so we look at the firm for the bathrooms and kitchen areas to rehab. And then we also have to consider what timing, because some people may be like, well, there's this gap here, but I can't wait five years.

Speaker 3 (00:36:19) - I have to do this like by a year from now. Okay, then let's fast track that. There was actually one firm that I've spoken with most recently and they said, well, within the in the next three years, we want to be able to sell it for 3 million. And I said, Well, then I can do the valuation for now to see where your gap is. I know where your income is right now, but I'm not the right person to get you to the three in such an accelerated pace. There are other organizations out there that could probably help you with that. You come back after you're done. So because I can coach people and I do coach people, especially estate planning firms, but also other types of firms as well. When we are looking at systematic structured growth or just specific areas of the firm that need to be positioned well. But I'm not the right kind of coach. If you need to accelerate your income in a short period of time.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13) - Now, if somebody is trying to sell their firm, let's say like this person for $3 million, is there a certain ratios you're looking at where you're like, okay, your income needs to be $6 Million to sell it for 3 million? Or I mean, I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (00:37:28) - This is not something I've looked into. So I'm curious and I know a lot of people are curious because people are always I mean, you just see people all the time and you just get tagged in a million things when people are talking about selling their firm.

Speaker 3 (00:37:44) - Certainly this weekend was a nice weekend. So so I would say that there's certainly rules of thumb. There's, you know, targets you'll hear three times EBITDA, which is earnings before taxes and depreciation and amortization. So I would say, first of all, the type of firm, the services you provide. Are going to have an effect on that. So there's some services that are going to have a higher multiple than other services. For example, I'd say estate planning, trademark business law, those are going to have higher multiples than, for example, P.I. or maybe even family law that are heavy litigation, one time transactions. But you're looking at in general terms, one time. Gross Or about 2.8 times net. But the net is the weird one because net can be manipulated so easily with how much you put into your IRA or how much you, you know, flow through for a tax purpose, but not necessarily a business purpose.

Speaker 3 (00:38:45) - Purpose. So now when when we are doing our valuations, we rely heavily on what's called sellers discretionary earnings. And that's basically doing a recast of all that personal stuff back in and making it net.

Speaker 2 (00:38:59) - That makes good sense. Yeah. Is that and that's kind of like I think what a lot of people refer to as total owner benefit. Are those kind of the same thing, correct?

Speaker 3 (00:39:08) - It is. It is the same thing. However, one of the things that people don't think about, and that is the salary of the owner who's leaving. And sometimes people take W-2 salary, sometimes people don't, and they just pull from the net. And sometimes when they do take from the salary, they're paying themselves either $30,000 a year or they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. And so that is an owner benefit for sure. But we also have to look at, well, what would it cost to replace you with somebody and not just as a lawyer, but you're also the CEO and you're also this and that, that and the other.

Speaker 3 (00:39:46) - So we do a lot of figuring to to make that real for a buyer's perspective.

Speaker 2 (00:39:53) - Yeah, that makes really good sense to me. Well, I've thought that when people do those tiny salaries as a lawyer, like if they're the CEO, I'm always thinking that is going to be interesting. If ever somebody has to come in and replace you. Because I mean, finding a CEO for $30,000 a year might not be your best hire.

Speaker 3 (00:40:14) - Good luck with that. But doesn't it make your profit look so much higher right now?

Speaker 2 (00:40:17) - Right. Exactly. I find I have to tell you, this is an area of law firm ownership that I find so fascinating is understanding the numbers. Like, I mean, like 2AT, and I am kind of a freak. I mean, my my bookkeeper and CFO team will tell you, like, I literally play these mind games. I'm like, okay, if we're 2% off on our forecast, like, where did we go wrong? And, you know, like, I want to be like dead on and really understand our numbers.

Speaker 2 (00:40:49) - And then I hear other lawyers and they're like, Yeah, I haven't seen my pal since January. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I would be like a hair on fire, like cat on the ceiling kind of person.

Speaker 3 (00:41:03) - Last week I talked to someone who doesn't even have panels. I'm like, What? What, what? I'm not understanding. Like, just send me your taxes, then just send me your taxes. How do you operate this way?

Speaker 2 (00:41:15) - Oh, my gosh. Oh, there's no way. I'm like, I am getting hives when it's like the sixth day of the month and I don't have my PNL because my people are like, We can get it on the ninth. And my last person always had it on the fifth. And I'm like, okay, I'm trying to go for your ninth thing. Like I'm, I'm trying to, you know, be there. But by the seventh, I'm always like, So do you have it a little like.

Speaker 3 (00:41:40) - It's like a button.

Speaker 3 (00:41:41) - And QuickBooks just brought it to me.

Speaker 2 (00:41:43) - I'm just like, I'm so pathetic.

Speaker 3 (00:41:47) - I'm with you, though. I always in my law firm, I always got it on the sixth. And if it wasn't there on the sixth, man, I was like, calling pound and desks.

Speaker 2 (00:41:54) - Yeah, well, I think it matters. And I to me, it's a almost like a safety blanket kind of thing. Like a security blanket. I mean, I know exactly what's going on, so if something is going awry, I'm going to know it quickly. And I mean, and I'm going to even have other things more than monthly where I'm going to know if things are going awry. Do you know, so that levers can be pulled?

Speaker 3 (00:42:18) - Well, you want to see the trends. Absolutely it's not. And that's the thing, though, is even those that have the panels, those that look at their panels, often they are just looking to see how did we do? They are not looking at it at a strategic way to see what is the trend and where's the forecast going.

Speaker 3 (00:42:36) - And so their businesses could be so much different if they were forecasting versus just historical. How do I do? Did I check the box? Do I get to pat myself on the back today or not?

Speaker 2 (00:42:46) - Oh, my gosh. I love my forecast to tool. We run a 13 month, you know rolling forecast and I mean it is by far my biggest self competition you know but I find the forecast. Casting tool to be powerful in allowing you to look at things strategically and make those strategic decisions. Because, I mean, you've got everything in front of you, every little thing. And I mean, you can pull levers all around and see what is happening, you know, what it will do to numbers and how it will impact things. And I think it allows you to look at trends right there in your face. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (00:43:28) - Like I do. I do. And but what we hear all the time is from lawyers. I'm not good at numbers. I don't like numbers.

Speaker 3 (00:43:35) - Also can't tell you the number of people who have told me that, that when we then focused on the numbers and they actually started producing results, they liked, they loved being in their numbers. And so what I really take from that is what you don't like is the results you're getting. And that's why you don't like numbers. That's why you don't like to get in there. Because if they produce differently, you would love it.

Speaker 2 (00:43:55) - Well, and I think I think a lot of us lawyers joke about going to law school because we didn't have to do math. I mean, I was definitely one of those weird lawyers. I thought I was going to be a biomedical engineer. So I was all about math. Like I was totally into math. I kind of got the end of my calculus brain, though, and I was like, Whoa, I don't think I can do any more of this calculus stuff. Like, I am tapping out. But our math is all simple, you know what I mean? Multiplication, adding a little, dividing some percentages, like, you know, it's basic.

Speaker 2 (00:44:27) - I feel like you get through sixth grade in seventh grade and we're good with our math like.

Speaker 3 (00:44:33) - Nothing that a basic calculator can't do or map.

Speaker 2 (00:44:36) - Exactly. Exactly. And so yeah, I tend to think it might be a little bit of an excuse because we got that. We definitely have seventh grade math, I think. Yeah. So. Well, I really appreciate your time today. It just I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And I know there are so many people out there that are either thinking of buying firms, thinking of selling firms. I mean, it's a point of conversation practically in every setting I attend. And so I just am really happy we were able to bring you on and talk about quid pro quo and what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Speaker 3 (00:45:14) - Thank you. I'm glad I was able to answer all your questions for all your people.

Speaker 2 (00:45:18) - Yes, indeed. Well, and I hope you now have your kids. They have gone back to school right in.

Speaker 3 (00:45:24) - They started last Thursday.

Speaker 3 (00:45:25) - So, yes, this is the first full week starting today.

Speaker 2 (00:45:28) - So you're like living it up this week, huh?

Speaker 3 (00:45:30) - That's right. Just free as a bird.

Speaker 2 (00:45:35) - Okay. Well, enjoy and enjoy the rest of your week. Now, do tell our listeners and we'll add it in the notes. Where can people reach you? What is the best way for somebody to reach you?

Speaker 3 (00:45:45) - Well, the best way to become aware of our community is through our private Facebook group called The Art of Buying and Selling a law firm or law firms and otherwise. Our website is quid pro quo law.com.

Speaker 2 (00:45:58) - Okay, perfect. Well, great. Well thanks again and enjoy the rest of your week and take care of those goats in that tractor and all the things.

Speaker 3 (00:46:07) - All the things. Thank you so much, Elise.

Speaker 1 (00:46:10) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast, a production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Amy Cote. 

Amy started Think Out because for most organizations prevention is an afterthought. With communication, consistency and execution, employees will perform well as teams that are prepared for the expected and unexpected. 

Thanks to Amy’s training and experience, she has strong skills in leadership, communication, change management, operations, labor relations, policy development and best practices.  

Thanks to Amy’s genes, she has an obsessive curiosity, keen ability to think out, problem solve and counsel. 

If you have questions or just want to think out loud together, Amy would love you to take action and advocate for yourself, your people, your business, your future!  

Take a listen!

Episode Highlights:

  • 11:34 How curiosity and innovative thinking play a role in Amy’s business
  • 19:29 The need to question traditional ways of doing things and the benefits of thinking outside the box
  • 20:38 A businesses to plan for the future 
  • 32:08 Amy starting her own business, including the initial uncertainty and the importance of perseverance
  • 44:08 Personal growth and self-discovery that comes with owning a business


📹 Watch the interview here.

Connect with Amy:

Resources:

Transcripts: Revolutionizing Education: Innovations for the Future with Amy Cote

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maximum Mom with Elise Buey, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - Come on. Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast. I am so happy today to welcome my guest, Amy Coyote. Now, did I say that right? You did indeed, yeah. Thank you for having me. I know, But sometimes even after I hear somebody, I mess it up. And so I always. This is one of those name things. Amy and I were just talking before we got on her name, you know, has an accent at the end. And then tell us also, you said it has the tent on the Oh as well, correct? Yes. Yeah. So if it was if it was really done in French properly, it would have the tent on the.

Speaker 2 (00:01:05) - Oh the accent on the E but nobody can even get the accent on the E So we just that's enough for people without adding the O as well. Yeah. And I was saying, I mean I spent my whole life, you know, with this name Elise. And I mean, my real name is Elizabeth, but my parents immediately, like on my birth certificate, they put Elizabeth. But I mean, you know, the moment I got there, I'm adopted. I was named Elise. So everybody calls me Elise. But every teacher, I mean, from day one until law school has messed that up and said, Elsie. And I mean, I have had to, like, call out every teacher. I'm like, Could you just sound it out? You know, that's so funny that, you know, it's like gap filling with your brain, right? Like that. They just want to make it one way and it's really another ways. It's great. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:01:58) - Yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (00:01:59) - I don't.

Speaker 2 (00:02:00) - I'm very careful with people's names. But so my youngest daughter, Lucy, her first name is actually Rebecca because I'm a fifth generation Rebecca. My middle name is Rebecca. It's always the second born daughter and it's always rotating between the first and middle name. And so when she was born, I said, Well, we got to go with the tradition, but we didn't want to call her that. And so we because there's a lot of them in the family, obviously. And Lucy is also a family name, which means I get the cookie jar from the family. But we we have always called her Lucy. And it's, you know, so we always put our period. Lucy But most people start out the school year saying. Rebecca And she says, My name is Lucy. You know, like, oh my gosh, it is something. I think it's kind of, I don't know. It's one of those things that I think we could all do a better job, kind of like you mentioned, of just listening to people, what their name is and asking and then repeating it.

Speaker 2 (00:02:59) - And no doubt I mess up and have to ask again sometimes or but I mean, just. Really trying, because I think in our diverse culture, you just can't look at a name and assume it. It is said one way or pronounced one way. I met an attorney recently and his name is spelled R, i a N, and people would say Ryan a lot of times. But it's Rian and and again, you know, I think it is just so important to ask. And I sometimes feel, though, that I'm a little annoying because I ask people all the time, you know, like even if it's just a little bit questionable to me, I'm going to ask. Yeah. Because, you know, I don't know. It just feels I think probably because I had that experience as a child constantly being called the wrong name. And obviously with Elsie, it became Elsie the cow. So then everyone would, you know, make fun of it. I mean, so I got to be a little snarky with my teachers, you know, after a couple of grades, you kind of have to put it into that, you know, or the other kids will kind of pile on.

Speaker 2 (00:04:07) - Right, Right. I try to listen. I think it's challenging and helpful now, actually. I mean, to say that people put the pronouns on their email addresses because not I mean, anybody can choose any any name that they want, Right? But not every name that's masculine is for a male and the government is the worst. They don't put their pronouns on and they'll and it'll be some name that like, like a Peyton. And you don't know if it's a man or a woman, and you're supposed to email this person back and say the thing and ask the question and you don't know. You want to be like, Hello person or hello individuals. You know, you can't say the thing. So sir or madam, you know, which is why that exists, right? Because people wouldn't know. It's very challenging. I try to be extremely aware and ask a lot of questions, but that's just in my nature. Well, I was going to say that. I mean, let's talk a little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:05:09) - I mean, let's back up first. Tell us who is in your family. I always just like to start with that so people know kind of who you are and what does your home look like. So there are five of us. My husband and I have three children and we have two girls and a boy in the Middle East bookended by the girls. My oldest daughter is Ada, who often people want to say Ada is her name, which is strange to me because it's just Ada. And if there was an I like some people want to put on there, it would be Aida, which is Hispanic. So I don't know. But you know, Ada is an old English name and Irish, so Ada is 16. She's a rising senior. She's young for her grade. So we're doing the whole college deal with her right now. And then my son is James. He's 15, so he is going into 10th grade. And then Lucy is my youngest. She just turned 13 and she's going into ninth grade.

Speaker 2 (00:06:08) - So she is considerably young for her grade, but she is on her own little trajectory of things. So that is where she lands. So there's there's all of us And a dog, big dog. It's a it's a pretty wild place to be most days. I mean, just the memory of having three children in high school. I mean, you are going to have yourself one fun year. Yeah, this year is going to be interesting. It was I keep telling people we're in like the fifth circle of hell with three teenagers right now because it's just so much there's like we're determining now we really need another vehicle and. It's, you know, it's overwhelming at times. But yeah, so that is what our household looks like and everybody's very busy. I think we just did something like 24 soccer games and 11 days and oh my gosh, just like, Oh yeah, I've been there, done that and I do not want to go back to that. I have to say, like it is a wild experience to shepherd kids through these high school years, their activities, college cars, you know, all the pitfalls and pit stops of teamed them.

Speaker 2 (00:07:24) - Yeah. And I'll be honest, it's worse, I think, than ever before because it's not just the onslaught of the internet and social media and telephones on your hip every two seconds or in your hand non-stop, which we're really strict about. But it is in this wake of the pandemic. These kids are just. I think the human population in general is very angry right now. People are very angry and they're full of angst and sorrow and no one has properly grieved this whole thing we went through in all of the loss that we've had. And there was loss. I mean, whether you lost a physical being from the planet or not, there was a lot of loss of people didn't get to go to their graduation, You know, whatever it was, there was a lot of loss. But hugely into that was the loss of maturation, right? Like these kids were just and we're great. We were great. We were on the Ponderosa, We were all together. Everybody was happy. We did the thing.

Speaker 2 (00:08:25) - It was frustrating for me at times running a business when the kids were like, How do I do? How do I log on? You know, like, you know, stop talking. I'm doing this. Not every household is like that, right? Not every household had a great experience being home, and now everyone is just no one knows how to behave. And so it's very challenging. You know, teenage girls especially can be super cool, but now in this pandemic wake, they're all they're awful. At least they're just awful. So we we really are looking forward to our daughter getting out of high school, getting to college, like being with kids who have chosen specifically to be at a place which I think comes with a different headspace. Right. So like their mental game is going to be similar in some fashion. And so hopefully she'll find a good group of kids to be friends with and be around and enjoys what she's doing. It's just been it's been very challenging, very challenging. Kids are.

Speaker 2 (00:09:25) - Kids are not. They're not I mean, they're not kind to teachers like it's just a lot. Oh, it is. I mean, I think you have I mean, just barely scratched the surface, though, of what I mean. And I don't think we've slightly addressed what these kids have gone through. I mean, I really do not. And I mean, as you probably remember, I mean, I have a 21 year old son, So I mean, he was right in that end of high school, junior senior year, freshman year of college during this kind of three year pandemic period. And it has been not linear, to say the least, you know, as far as watching him and and again, like you, I mean, we had many very positive things, you know, in the home and, you know, just in our lives being able to just pay our bills and, you know, do our regular things. So clearly, I don't mean to come at it from a place without the appropriate gratitude for, you know, the situation we had.

Speaker 2 (00:10:24) - But there was some real social implications, I think, you know, for kids and missing graduations, missing that whole go off to college thing. And, you know, just it's been really interesting. And I think that I just think there's so much change in what these kids even think is needed now because they watched this pandemic period. And depending on their family circumstance, they might have seen their family thriving financially, you know, in the pandemic, working from home, whatever. And I think even college is becoming a bigger question mark, even for a lot of kids. Agreed. Agreed. And it's not you know, it's not for everybody. Right. Like, of course, trade, school and all the things that exist. But so I'm hoping I was very hopeful during the pandemic that we were all going to come out as a human race in a much better way and have evolved from this thing. And I think initially the answer is no. And I'm hoping that there's going to be a lot more transition in other things.

Speaker 2 (00:11:34) - You know, we're supposed to have this whole innovative re reformation of education. And I know that some colleges are doing that, like there are some colleges that have. Mechanics programs for building sports cars or engineering vehicles, which don't have to be, you know, an engineer with a four year degree to design a vehicle or an engine or something. And so they are definitely rethinking. Who are we attracting as our ideal student and what programs are we putting them into? And it's it's interesting to me, though, because the cycle is always behind, right? Like you just everybody figures it out a little too late and they're not thinking proactively, which makes me nuts. Well, and that, I think, is such an interesting point coming from you in particular. Tell us a little bit about your business. Think out. I mean, I would think innovative thinking and curiosity and innovation have to be some of your just like lodestar, you know, things. Yes. So I practice preventable law is what I have figured out to say to people.

Speaker 2 (00:12:43) - I was a certified preventable reader in the state of New York related to public motor vehicle collisions. And so it could be big bus, big truck ups, trucks. You know, transportation authorities especially are government rated. And so that really clicked a light bulb with me where I thought like this, I am so good at this because it's not always the thing that happens on the road that causes the collision right then and there. It's six months ago where somebody in HR let that guy back on the road and he had a shoulder tear and, you know, turns out he couldn't do £80 of pressure, which is what happens when you lose your power steering. And so collision occurs and people don't really think like that. But I do. So it's it is a blessing and a curse for sure because I am obsessively curious and want to know everything there is about everything, but not everybody else does. And not, you know, most people I think, share with me pretty well because I'm authentically curious. And so I'm talking with them.

Speaker 2 (00:13:44) - In fact, my husband, when we go out to dinner, he's like, Could you please not talk to the waiter about his or her life tonight? Could could we just have dinner? Because could you not help people tonight? Because I'm always like, Oh, and how are you? What's your deal? Oh, you seem upset. What's going on? You know? And the next thing you know, they're telling us their entire life sob story and I'm connecting them to this person and this person and giving them Justin's and the whole thing. And, you know, they're sitting down at the table with us and he's like, Can we just eat? Because we don't go out very often at all, like ever. And so on the rare occasion it's happening, it's like, can we just have a solo night together? Just us as a couple. But you know, it's all very well intended. So yes, I'm very I am obsessively curious and it is what makes me really good at my job.

Speaker 2 (00:14:31) - I'm a digger, I tell people. So I'm digging through all the things and then we just sort of rebuild, Right. So it doesn't always have to look like how it was once before, right? Who is your ideal client? Is it always, you know, big companies, these transportation authorities, or right now in your role, who is your ideal client and how do you find your ideal client? Like I find your practice, I mean, fascinating actually, because I tend to be like you. I'm like, Ooh, could we figure out what caused this problem we're looking at? Because usually it's way long ago, you know, some little cycle of events. And I'm like, Let's figure out where we went awry in our decision making a while ago so that we're not repeating it. I find a lot of people, though, just want to kind of like push it under the rug and move on. And I'm like, Oh, no, we are going to dig and we're going to figure it out because I hate to make the same mistakes twice.

Speaker 2 (00:15:28) - Right? Of course. Of course. So so the ideal client really is not any specific. Organization. I mean, I will say I love working with municipalities and for me, that's because the ripple effect is so grand. You know, if I can make the city school district better, everybody in the community wins. Right? Because those kids ten years from now are the leaders of our community. And so wouldn't it be nice if they actually got to spend time learning and becoming better humans like high school is supposed to teach you to be instead of focusing on some of the other things that are being focused on. So, so those really are passion projects for me. But I really I think the the prime candidate of a of a client for me is really the one that cares. Like they I'm all about continuous improvement. And if the client wants to do that, you know, they want to come to me. And so it's not they want to come to me and they want to do that and they want to have these back and forth conversations and get to the root cause of the thing and sort it out and prevent it for future.

Speaker 2 (00:16:30) - I mean, I don't want to see anybody. There's a time and place for litigation. Probably 95% of what is occurring right now in New York State should never be there. And that really happened. I mean, I can tell you, when I was working for a law firm last, I've had this business for just over six years now. And when I last worked for somebody, every single trial that I went to court and tried the case. Should never have been a trial, like it never should have happened, let alone going to trial. The incident never should have occurred. And unfortunately, there's older men who run these law firms who don't want to go to the client and say. This shouldn't have happened. You really need to do X so that this doesn't happen. That's not a popular conversation, right? So because it doesn't make the law firm money. But it really should be said, and I think people appreciate that about me and my candor, that I can come to them and say, You don't want to pay me, you want to go do this other thing.

Speaker 2 (00:17:30) - And I mean, I have one time right now that is probably I have the greatest client right now and the worst client right now. And the worst client is because they're just like trying to check a box to say they had the conversation. And I keep telling them, because you've had the conversation, you're now going to be on legal notice that you. Yes, correct. The thing like your liability has just gone up. Yeah. So and they're just terrible, you know, they're like responsive and they don't really care. And they're the well, this is the way we've always done it, people and we've never had an issue. And I keep telling them, So what happens when somebody comes in and. You know, I don't want to give too much away, but so they house weapons for people and I keep digging and asking more and more questions about how the lockdown is and who has access and can you get in through the website and is there a digital platform and do you have cyber security and who's watching all these things And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, all the answers.

Speaker 2 (00:18:33) - And then I had to spell out for them like, so what happens if somebody breaks into the building and they take the weapons and they go and kill a bunch of people at their place of employment? Oh, I know what happens. You're liable. Well, no, the guy would know. No, you're liable. And, you know, and so, like, that was kind of eye opening to the point that some people actually left the organization because as a whole, they couldn't wrap around that. That was really the responsibility. They are not a great client. Like that's it's not fun work for me because I can tell them all day long what they need to do and ask them questions and they're just kind of like, So that doesn't feel great, right? No. And I think to your point, though, I mean, I think it just and it's an unfortunate stereotype, but it tends to be really true, you know, that whole kind of older generation, even older than me, you know, that just as like this is how we've always done it, this is how it looks.

Speaker 2 (00:19:29) - And I'm like, Can we flip that thinking completely and actually think, okay, this is how we've always done it? So let's imagine flipping that completely like all kinds of different ways. Throw some color on it, flip it, you know, 180 degrees, tweak it a little sideways, you know, put some polka dots on it, and then let's look at it and see if what you were doing actually made any sense. Like, Right. This mindset of this is how we've always done it absolutely makes me like a psycho person. I mean, yeah, like so, you know, appreciate when I was still in-house at the Transportation Authority, we had big buttons made that said, This is the way I've always done it with the big line through it and the red circle and the line. And any time somebody would say that to me, I'd pull the button out and say, Not an answer, not a valid response, you got to come up with something else. And a lot of the older generation people did not enjoy it, you know? And I think, honestly, that's why we're having this mass retirement now.

Speaker 2 (00:20:38) - Right? Because people are saying, I don't want to do it the new way. I don't want to do this new software program you're downloading and making me train on. It's too exhausting. I was on the cusp of retiring. I probably would have stayed 5 or 7 years longer, but now I'm out. Right? And problem, right, because there's no pipeline. I hate that word pipeline. But in this instance, like, I don't know a better word, but, you know, they have they have not been thoughtful enough. Right. Like that is occurring. And nobody was preparing for it 15 years ago. And there's and again, to your point, preparing 15 years ago, like in dealing with this succession planning. And I mean, I think as a business owner, I mean, I've become a little kind of crazy with succession planning. I mean, I've unfortunately had some situations that have kind of required me to do that with, you know, losing a bookkeeper and a plane accident, things like that, where it was like, oh, whoa, okay.

Speaker 2 (00:21:34) - You know, this, you know, proverbial hit by a bus really does happen some. Oh, yes. Yeah. And, you know, you need to be prepared and that that doesn't just mean one role needs to be prepared. Every role needs to have succession planning. People need to be thinking about it in their day to day work constantly. Like how how are we preparing for, you know, the proverbial bus or you have emergency surgery or whatever the case may be? Yeah, you know, and I think that as business owners, a lot of times we put our head in the sand and we just think we'll deal with it when it happens. And that preparation is game changing, at least not only to your business operations but to your level of peace. I mean, the times that I have been completely prepared in our systems have been followed. And, you know, it's literally been like a 30 minute ordeal to go in and be like, okay, I'm going to move tasks from this person to this person and, you know, maybe have a one big 30,000 foot view meeting and whatever versus those times when we haven't been prepared.

Speaker 2 (00:22:44) - And I'm like, Oh my. Like, we need to, you know, dig in for two weeks and figure out everything this person's been doing. And, you know, I mean, you know the routine. Yeah. The problem is no one thinks their house is ever going to burn down. Right? Right. No one ever thinks that's going to happen. No one ever thinks they're going to get hit by a bus. And I mean, obviously, you experienced it, right? Your bookie bookkeeper went down. And that's a huge challenge. And if you don't have something in place for the if come. Then it's scrambled. And now you've lost all this time just to ramp up and cover. So I really like the clients that are like, Oh, I've never thought of it that way. Thank thank God for you. Thank God for you for asking that question, because I don't know if I like to make a difference. And so I guess that's really it, right? Like I'm fulfilled through service.

Speaker 2 (00:23:32) - And if I can't be of service, then it's not fun. So. Right. Do you end up helping clients a lot, like get insurance for some of their if's or, you know, in addition to do you also kind of dig into their processes and see what you can do to kind of build out better processes? Yes, because so, for example, if I'm going to help an organization have an emergency ops plan or have a new contract with one of their vendors, if I don't fully understand how that affects everybody on the ground, then I can't put into the contract because. Right. The contract is just a I explain this to everybody all the time. It's just a roadmap for the if something happens, the car breaks down, do you turn right or turn left or do you call XYZ person or do you go backwards? You go to the contract and it tells you what it says. And any judge is going to look to that contract, too, and say, well, you guys didn't put it in here, so I'm going to decide for you.

Speaker 2 (00:24:32) - And you may not like the decision, so let's just put it in there and let's not make it crazy legal jargon. Let's make it super clear, especially when I work with a lot of construction firms and they might be massive, you know, hugely successful large construction firms, but you're still working with people who are throwing a hammer for a living. Right? And most of these business owners grew up throwing a hammer and now they just happen to be the leader in charge, but they don't necessarily know what all these things are. And so those are fun companies to work for, too, because you can talk to the person and say, Well, tell me about the I need to understand, you know, when you're throwing this hammer, like exactly what's happening, where are you going? And because, of course, then everybody wants to share their story. And so they're happy to do that. And then I can say, okay, so if you're throwing your hammer this way and then you do that on Saturdays, sometimes it doesn't make sense to have payroll necessarily process on a Monday.

Speaker 2 (00:25:26) - Right? So there's there's a lot of operational stuff that goes into it. So if another contractor comes in and says, Well, we want payroll processed on Monday, I have to kick back and say, no, no, no, you know what? I'm making all this up, but we have to do it on Tuesdays because we've got guys who work on the weekend and then they go, Oh, really? Okay. So it's it's it's very interesting to me to have to solve that problem. I started this business because when I was in-house at the Authority, I was well, we went from a $40 Million deficit to a $30 Million surplus. And so yes, it was a very, very, very big deal. Very big deal. And we were advocating on behalf of all organizations that are municipal arms or actual transportation authorities or arms. And so we were going to Albany and saying, you really need to do things differently. And here's what we suggest. And it's worked for us and it could work for others.

Speaker 2 (00:26:20) - And not everybody listens. But there were a lot of really pivotal moments there where we challenge the status quo. And one and everybody stood back and went, how did that even happen? And it's well, because because we're doing really good work here. So I was going around the country on a circuit of conferences and explaining how we had made these great changes and the things that we had done. And a lot of people were then saying, and there's no competition in government work, right? Like it's all one shareable pot. So everybody is anxious to share all of their ideas. So I ended up getting hired by other municipal entities around the country to go and help them. And so, so one of the ways is an example. I love the story. I went down to a transportation authority in the South and they didn't know the CFO knew they were losing money and knew that their insurance policy premiums were way too high and had spiked but didn't know what the problem was. And they took a really strong employee who was in the safety department and said, You're now going to be in charge of the risk management department.

Speaker 2 (00:27:29) - And he was having a complete freak out because he said, I don't know anything about risk management and the, you know, the people in the leadership positions. We're saying, yes, you do. You do safety all day long. And he was like, no, no, no. It's two different things. Like, this is crazy. So he was having a freak out. And when I when I got involved, I read all of their policies and procedures, all of their paper, anything that's on paper, I read it. Job descriptions, contracts, vendor agreements, whatever. And then I went down there and prepared to ask every single one of the employees in this now like 45 person department who literally, at least when I walked in, were screaming at each other. One lady was sobbing at her desk. Another series of people were screaming at each other like everyone was. And I said, Where did I walk into this? So the main guy, like, took me. You know, we went and talked.

Speaker 2 (00:28:20) - I interviewed everybody and some of them were really angry and screaming and but I got everybody calm down. In fact, there was a man who happened to be in the same room with one lady who was really upset. And after I got her calmed down and talked to her and answer all the things, she left and he said, how did you do that? How did you. And I said, What? You said She was like a crazy person and you just made all of that go away. And I said, It's all about trust and listening and doing the things you say you're going to do. So now that woman knows I'm going to do exactly what I told her to do because it's me doing it and not the organization or whatever. But I walked out of there and it turned out the head risk manager was stealing money and stealing time. And we uncovered all of that. And that was part of the reason people were so upset because they sort of knew it. So I went to I went through and had to prove it.

Speaker 2 (00:29:10) - And in the end, when I gave my leadership presentation at the end of the week that I was there, I said, you know, I'm not a forensic accountant. I can't tell you. But from my rough numbers, it's like $1.4 million, like this is you need to send her to prison. Like this is a problem, Right? And so I gave them my list. There was 27 things they needed to do. They did four of them that day, which included terminating her. And they offered me a job on the spot, which was fascinating. But I came home and I had this big goofy grin on my face and my husband met me in the driveway and he said this This is what you should be doing for a living. And I went, I don't want to own my own fur. I can't buy insurance. And here's my own continuing editor. I don't want to do that. And I wasn't ready. But fast forward ten years when it all just came upon, you know, it just like choice by circumstance, right? Like I just did it.

Speaker 2 (00:30:06) - And but it's funny. I knew I had to grin because I knew what I had done and I knew how good it was going to be in two weeks later, they called me and they said, We don't know what kind of rabbit you pulled out of the hat, but people are literally whistling while they work, and we cannot thank you enough. But it was great because it was I mean, some things like it's not all rocket science, right? Like, right. We were looking at the guys who pull video, the guy who pulls video and not had a vacation in two years because he had no backup person. Right. And I was like, wait, what? So that's like I kept saying, but if you work tomorrow, who's pulling the video? Nobody. So why have the video at all like this? Makes sense. No backup plan like so. So there were things that were like points of frustration for people that literally were burning dollars and making people worse. Right? People.

Speaker 2 (00:31:03) - And that was a great I love that project. That was such a good project. But yeah, yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, it was. They they literally saved millions of dollars and every once in a while I'll call them and say, This is still going well. And they'll say, We still want you to come down here at work. It could still be that much better. Thank you. I can't handle the humidity. It's bad enough up here. Oh, my gosh. I love that. That is amazing. Well, if you were going to give some of our listeners, I mean, people, you know, who are lawyers, mothers, entrepreneurs, I mean, what is your like think of your top three things. I mean, how do you. Recommend that people do and feel confident to start their own business. I mean, what are some of the things that you think you had to kind of overcome in that initial grin in the driveway to the day you did start your business? What are some of those top three things you had to overcome to feel confident to run your own business, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:32:08) - Well, I mean, for one, mine was really choice by circumstance. I went to I left a job to courted for two and a half years. I finally said yes. And I was doing great work. And they were not ready. Right. They were the bad client that was not ready for somebody to come in and make change. Right. Which I'll tell you that whole story another day because it's pretty bad. And in the short time that I was there, I did some really major work with them, some major, major work, which was great. I mean, it was really great. And some of those stories are some of my most memorable and fun to share also. But I never stop, right? Like, I'm always like, you just have to keep going because there's no other option, right? I don't know how to stop. So I literally just said, I'll spend $35, I'll file a DBA. I can worry about the rest later. I'll see if I get some clients.

Speaker 2 (00:33:00) - If I don't, I can go apply for a job. But I know I'm just going to see what happens. And it turns out immediately people were excited to know that I was available just to get to me without going through somebody else. And so that happened. But I guess I would say to people, you know, there I just said this the other day, there are successes and there are sadnesses in owning a business. And when you're working through the sadnesses, you just have to remember. That what you're doing matters and what I do makes a difference. And although it's not always the difference today, it is a difference in the long run and I know it and my clients know it and they thank me for it every day because they can. They see it. And especially I have a client I've been with six years now since the beginning, and they now are really, really starting to dig in with the millions and millions and millions of dollars that they're saving because of the hard work that I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (00:34:02) - And it was hard at the beginning. You know, not everybody trusts an outside person and it's really difficult for them to get to that space. And so they're really starting to see this output that is not always visible to everybody at the beginning. And I think that's sort of the hardest, the hardest part that and finding out what motivates you, right? Like why do you want to own your own business? What do you want to do? Is it something that matters? Is is it a niche that not anybody else has been in? And if it matters to you and you know you can make a difference, whatever it is. You know, if it's entertaining and putting a smile on somebody's face like we're cooking or whatever, like, then, then, you know, if it's what fulfills you, then it's something worth pursuing. Right? So. Right. That I mean, those would be the two biggest things I think, to keep, to figure it out and then to keep going. And then also, I guess the last thing would be just, you know, at the beginning, there's so much that bogs you down.

Speaker 2 (00:35:00) - Oh, yeah. You know, like corporate formation. I'm not a corporate attorney, and so I just did this DBA at the beginning, and now here I am all these years later and I'm restructuring some things and I'm doing more and some of it's okay, but some of it's a nightmare. You know, moving, moving just email platforms is a huge nightmare, right? Like everybody starts out with a free Gmail account and then you move to the paid premium Microsoft deal and they don't communicate. They don't like each other. And it wasn't for lack of trying. I mean, I asked everybody, what do you do? What do you do? Because I'm not a techie. I don't know. What do I do? What do I do? And I followed the bits of advice that were common among all of the expert advisors that I reached out to. But all these years later, I'm just like, Oh my God, it doesn't work, you know? And so you want it to work that and for people, I mean, because you're a mom and you have kids and you did this when your kids were younger, like mine and.

Speaker 2 (00:35:57) - You know, I didn't I did not want to have kids, at least I don't know if you know that about me. We were not going to have kids and we feel very lucky that we did that. Things did not go according to plan. We would have missed out on quite a bit if that was the case. I got pregnant on the pill the first two times and then the last time I was not taking it and we were doing other things that clearly also did not work. And so we were unsuccessful. But but, you know, I have very healthy kids and I was very good at being pregnant. And so it worked out. It's very challenging. Now. There are days where I'm like, This is why I didn't want to have kids. And it's challenging with the business, but it's all sort of, you know, you navigate it right? You navigate it because you have to, but you also navigate it like the kids sometimes are, like you're working too much, you're working too much.

Speaker 2 (00:36:49) - And I think but that's what's fulfilling to me, right? And I think that's one of the biggest things. Like I've said to everybody, the hardest part about being a mother is that you oftentimes get married, so you become a wife. You're already a daughter, mostly a sister, a cousin, you know, your sibling, whatever. Now you're a wife, then you're a mother. Somebody's calling you mama. Somebody else is calling you baby. You know, you just all of your identity sort of folds away. And for a while, I felt like a caged bird, right? Like, I just was like, sometimes I need to just go out and do something and and do my own thing. And it was really great to be able to have my own business because you can do it your own way. And, you know, there's, you know, there's a group of us that sometimes we say we're unemployable at this point, right? Oh, yeah, because we do things our own way.

Speaker 2 (00:37:38) - And somebody said to me that day, I don't know that I would necessarily frame it that way, but it is sort of true, right? Because we want to just sort of question And when I look back to all of the things that I did as a kid, like, it all points to this one place completely, right? It all points. And so I think if somebody is sitting in a desk listening to this and has a side hustle and they're just like looking around and resentful towards all the things happening around them and going, Well, if it were my decision making today, I do it this way like it's time to get up from the seat and not look back. Exactly. And start making those decisions. Yeah. I mean, everyone I know, I'm sure you've heard this before too, but everyone I know that has built their own business. We all feel like you're building the jet as you're flying it completely. I mean, I think building the jet while you're flying it and it's on fire and you're maybe like flying through like some kind of knife or maybe even like Seafair, where you have the Blue Angels flying around you at like, yes, I mean, breakneck speed and you're supposed to be doing this all fine.

Speaker 2 (00:38:52) - I mean, it is a wild adventure, but I mean, don't know how to do it any other way. And I cannot imagine life sitting at a desk just taking those decisions, coming down and just being like, okay, sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know that I. So I recently got myself into trouble. I guess it was like, well, Covid has sort of time warped our sense of time recognition. But so it was pre-pandemic. I was at a baby shower for one of my very dear friends, who's also an attorney. And so, of course, other female attorneys were there and one of them who works at a law firm I had been at previously, and so had the woman who was having the baby. But a bunch of us were there. And I kind of made the joke of like, we should do a ladies Who lunch for those of us who've left the firm because there's so many of us because they just don't ever learn, right? And it's because as long as there's people coming out of law school who are willing to take those jobs because they don't know better, they're going to just keep doing it that same old way.

Speaker 2 (00:39:54) - But this one woman in particular was still there. And she's such a lovely human. I adore her. She's lovely and amazing and she's smart and charming and and she's very free and easy, right? Like everything is just breezy and fine, and I'm not that way, right? Like, I've been just kind of fire. Everything is like, I got to go. I got to go. And, you know, and I work on that on a daily basis. But she's so calm and and relaxed about stuff. And she's she was just recently made partner right before this party. And I said to her, I don't know how you can do that. Like, I wish I had more of what you I need more of what you have inside of me because I need to be okay with things. Because not everything is my fight, right? Like I'm always fighting for the underground. I'm always fighting for justice. Always, always, always. But not everybody wants to hear it. And not everything is picking up the sword for right.

Speaker 2 (00:40:55) - Not everything, right? Is your battle. So and I've been doing that much better as an older person than ever before when I was a kid. But I am just this I mean, this literally. I was two years old. Did the bus stop telling the older kids, my sister's seven years older than me, I was like, stop picking on my sister, you know? But this woman, I said to her, I really like sincerely, I wish I knew. How do you do that? Could you? And she was like, What do you mean? And I said, Well, you know, you have to go to those tables and sit with all those people, all those men. And this is how I'm saying it to her. And you have to listen to their bullshit and you have to vote with them and you have to just go along with whatever decision they make. Like how do you just sit there and not tell them how stupid they're being or how terrible the decision is? Like, how do you not say those things to them? I can't do that, which is why I left there, by the way.

Speaker 2 (00:41:49) - And and she just I she got really offended. And I truly was being complimentary and was truly saying like, I need more of that in my life. But she got really offended and I don't know if she sort of internalized and was like, do I go along with things that everybody says? But I'm telling you, she does all of them too, right? They all just sit around that table and go, Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Sure. You know. Well, and even if she's disagreeing, I mean, there's not enough of her to make a tide change. Do you know what I mean? Like. Well, and I don't think that she I don't think she's even saying if she disagrees because in maybe and maybe I'm just making this up because I'm not inside of her head, but I imagine in her world that's not worth fighting over. But for someone like me, it totally is, because you're wasting money or you're wasting time, or you're making it so that people, which is money and time all over, but you're making it so that the paralegals can't do their job efficiently, whatever it is, or you're making the paralegals feel so much less than or the administrative assistants feel so much less than because you're telling them, No, no, no, you can't be in this room or have that space or whatever the thing is.

Speaker 2 (00:43:06) - And that creates negative feelings, which makes people not work to their greatest ability and makes them not loyal. Right. And so they're going to go out on the street and have these other conversations that are negative in appearance, whether true or not true or feelings or not feelings. And so to me, it's just like, why would you not stop that at the pass? And so it's really it's interesting when you own your own business. You do have to sort of be on all of the time. And I've had to come to this reckoning of like. People will be okay with me as I am. Right. And and so and I only want to work with people who want to be with me as I am. And so. I guess it's okay that I've been kissed by the fire. Some people really like that, right? Right. And if they know they shouldn't be clients, I guess. No, you need to refer them to somebody a little more chill. Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 (00:44:08) - Who wants to go, you know, ten miles an hour for the next 100 years? Right. And and just make small incremental steps. Yeah. No, it's I think it's just fascinating. I mean, I think I think owning a business has been the most personal development I have had way more than dealing with these six kids and, you know, all of that. I mean, I thought I thought raising teenagers was a wild ride. I mean, owning a business has been so much wilder. You know, just the the reality of becoming your true, authentic self and really asking yourself, like, what do you believe in and what matters? I mean, I was seeing something just today and somebody is like, you know, talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger and you know what a great guy. And I'm thinking, really? We actually think Arnold Schwarzenegger is a great guy. Like, I mean, I have all kinds of you know, I mean, obviously, he's a mixed bag like many people.

Speaker 2 (00:45:09) - I mean, I can never look to somebody who I cannot respect and who has, you know, Right. Done things that I look to as being just kind of wildly outside of my core values. And, you know, but I find a lot of people in business, they can turn a blind eye to somebodies lack of core values or, you know, okay, we're raising the housekeeper's child, as you know, not our own for years. I mean, like what where do we draw the line on what's reasonable? And sometimes I look at business owners and I'm just like, I can never be you because I'm never going to be able to turn that blind eye. I mean, I am like you in that there are certain things I'm going to fight for and I'm going to fight for what's right. And I don't care what that means in the collateral, whatever. There are certain things that are right and certain things that I'm not going to be able to roll with. That is so me and it's, you know, it's lost me jobs.

Speaker 2 (00:46:18) - It's oh, yeah, it's, you know, it's alarming for other people, I guess. I mean, so you'll appreciate based on what you do. When I was a baby lawyer, somebody sent me to handle a family court proceeding. It was just like a calendar call, something, something. And they were double booked in another courtroom. And so they said, Amy, you go do it. And they handed me the file as I'm walking out the door and I'm like, What am I looking at? I don't I don't know what I'm doing and I don't want to practice in family court. You know, family court is on level two in the courthouse. I was always training. You don't get off at level two. Like that's not where you go. So I get off and I go in there and there was the attorney for the child and the attorney for the spouse. And I had the husband and I don't remember what happened, but something had happened. The father had not seen the child in six months.

Speaker 2 (00:47:11) - The child was four years old. I think there were two kids. One was two, one was four. Six months is a lifetime for a two year. Yeah. Four year old to not see a parent and the attorney for the child and the other attorney. Oh, and the social worker. So the three of them and me. And they're kind of like, What are you doing here? And the wife was asking for a delay and they were all fine with it. And I said, Absolutely not. And here I have no idea what I was doing. And they said, What do you mean? I said, I'm not doing that. Like, we're talking about a two year old and a four year old that haven't had visitation for six months. I'm not going to remember who their father is by the time he gets to see them. And why? Why is that? Oh, because you're waiting for a court proceeding to decide something about something. Something. I don't even remember what it was.

Speaker 2 (00:47:55) - And so I kind of went off at the mall and said, Are we all in the same place? Like, are we all talking like? And I looked at the attorney for the child and I said, This is your job, right? You know, I'm fighting for the dad, but you should be making the argument that I'm making. This kid can't be without his dad. What are you doing? And everybody sort of looked like I had four heads for a moment and I just said, I'm going to walk away now while you guys figure out what you're going to come up with that's going to satisfy me. And then I'll come back and we can go into the courtroom and tell the judge what's going to happen. But it better look like that my guy gets to see these kids tomorrow, Right? So so that's what happened. Like, ultimately, there was an agreement. It was, you know, and we went into the court and they were like, well, this one, you know, and he's like, who are you? You know, not just like, I'm nobody.

Speaker 2 (00:48:44) - Just do the I'm the one who got off on the wrong floor. Right, Right. But seriously, like, I just, you know, I just don't know how to keep. My mouth shut about the things that really matter. Right. And so I do. And I think it is fascinating. I love that I have gotten to know you. And I just think the world needs more of that, though, because I think sometimes that deep authenticity gets so lost in everyone trying to, like, put on their best behavior and don't even know what they're trying to do, like curate a life and a social media reel. And I'm just like, it just isn't like that. I just find that being able to be blunt, real authentic, mean what you say and say what you mean every single time. Right? It is just to me as such a more comfortable way to live. I have to admit, my children have bristled at it at times, you know, because there's times that I say something.

Speaker 2 (00:49:52) - I mean, I remember saying to my daughter once, I'm like, Is it dressed like a hooker at school day, you know, today? And I was like, What are you wearing? She was like, How did you just say that to me? And I'm like, How did you just get dressed like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's so funny. It's the same thing, right? Like, my oldest daughter is far more sensitive. Like, her superpower is being sensitive, Right? And mine is not. And. But my. But Lucy is more like me. So I could say to Lucy, you're not wearing that. That's a hooker dress that could wear in the store. And she comes out, but the older one will be like, What's wrong with it? What? Why would you say that to me? That's so mean, You know? No, I'm not being mean. And in fact, when they ask me about like, does this look okay? And I say, Oh, that looks great, you know, I would change, pull the sleeve up or put it down or something.

Speaker 2 (00:50:42) - And they're like, Really? Really is there, okay? And I look at them and go, If it didn't, you know, I wouldn't tell you. So why are we having this conversation? Why are we having this? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's so crazy. It is true. And I would I think that's a good point that you were making, though. Like you have to do it every single time. And so whatever your core values are, every single time is what you have to do. And I know that it is like I constantly am saying it's lonely out in front of the crowd, doing it your own way or being the only one to speak up. But I don't know what else this is all for. If we all can't be our own person and bring our talents to the world to benefit everybody in this way that we will, then I don't know what it's for. And although it is very difficult at times, I mean, you know, it's extremely challenging to lose your job because it's not the right fit and you have to change the lens and understand that it just was not the right fit and I have to move someplace else.

Speaker 2 (00:51:44) - And it really is where people say, you know, I'm glad that this happened to me and whatever. And and that last time when I lost that position and started this company, I found myself reflecting on that. But I was saying to people, I would not want to live through this again. I'm glad it happened. I'm glad the outcome is what it is. But this sucked. Like this was really bad. And you come to terms with this idea that it's just that there is a place for everyone. There is a piece of the pie for everyone. There's a space in place for us all. It's big enough in the world. And so going out on your own and doing the thing that you're passionate about is really a great path. Unless you're okay. Sitting at the desk doing what the big man tells you to do, right? Like, clearly neither of us are that people. No, no, definitely not. I really appreciate your time today. Amy and I so look forward to spending more time with you coming up soon.

Speaker 2 (00:52:43) - And so thank you for joining us. Tell us, how can people reach out to you if they want to learn more about your practice, understand how they can work with you? What is the best way for people to reach out to you? I'm okay if people want to email me directly, my email is Amy at. We thank Outcome. I love that and I love we think out and it's just brilliant. I just I mean, it suits you so well. I'm glad. I'm glad to know it because most people think it's like the dumbest name ever, so. Oh, I think it just suits you perfectly. Well, I hope you have a great rest of your day. And I cannot wait to hear about your adventures with three in high school. You are going to have one wild year. Yes, for sure. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to see you and spend time with you. Absolutely. Thanks so much. Enjoy your day. You too. I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (00:53:35) - Okay. Bye. Amy.

Speaker 1 (00:53:38) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast, a production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time. You.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Rachel Clar. 

Rachel is a divorced lawyer mom, and in deciding to launch a business. She had to first move through a tremendous inner journey of self-discovery and personal growth to develop the courage to take a big chance. 

As lawyers, we often live our lives based on the model we learned in school, the lie that conflict is a binary only resolved with someone prevailing. As women, in general, we were raised to elevate ourselves through collaborative leadership instead. 

Rachel believes in reconciliation work, humility, and collaboration. She wants women lawyers to find their sisterhood where they can speak freely, ask their toughest career questions, and level up to get the pay and the influence that they rightly deserve. 

Rachel creates spaces where real conversations happen and women both deeply bond & craft brilliant career strategies. She is a woman, a lawyer, and entrepreneur, professionally. Rachel is a mom to two amazing teenage boys. She is an empath, an artist, and a student of non-violence. 

Episode Highlights:

  • 02:48 Meet Rachel and Interconnected Us
  • 06:40 The struggles and unhappiness experienced by women lawyers
  • 10:32 Combating the pressure to always appear strong.
  • 16:57 The value of time, the importance of setting boundaries, and the ongoing journey of learning to manage time effectively
  • 23:27 The importance of celebrating personal wins and prioritizing self-care
  • 27:34 Using exercise to shut the brain off 
  • 33:05 The joy of making connections
  • 41:26 The lack of emphasis on emotional intelligence and communication skills in law school and the legal profession

📹 Watch the interview here.

Resources:

Transcripts: Building Authentic Connections with Rachel Clar

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maximum Mom with a least boy, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be. Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:00:30) - Thank you so much for joining us today. And I'm Elise Bui, the host of the Maximum Moms podcast. And today I'm so excited to welcome my friend Rachel Keller from Inter-connected Us. Hey, Rachel. Hi, Lynn. So happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited you're here. I have to tell you, I love your polka dots. That is so fun. I just wanted to be, like Facebook presentable. Yeah, totally. That's is definitely it. I love it. Okay. Well, first, I always like to just get this part out of the way.

Speaker 2 (00:01:02) - Just tell us who's in your family. You know, we are the Maximum Mom podcast. So, you know, just tell us what your family is like and then we'll get into the other things. You got it. All right. So I've got two boys. They are 12 and 14. The 14 year old is Asher. The 12 year old is Zachary. And they are opposite as can be. And they are delightful. I am so blessed. So yeah, the older ones away overnight camp and the little one and I are just having such a ball. It's just the three of us though. In my house. Yeah. Overnight camp is so fun. Oh, my gosh. Oh, he's. He's living his best life. Yeah. I mean, we can talk about this later, but I am genuinely thinking about starting Mom camp because as I'm watching all these kids go off to camp, we were huge in the camp as a family. Like we went to. Oh yeah, they camp in Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (00:01:54) - I was the office manager for a while, also worked in the kitchen because, you know, I had to figure out how to pay for all these kids to go to sleep away camp. So yeah, life changing. Like I'm a huge fan of camp. And then I was like, wait a minute, why do we moms not have camp? Like, I love that and we definitely need to talk offline. I know something I want to share with you, but I won't do it on the podcast. Okay, fair enough. Tell us about your business. Oh yeah. So interconnected US is a startup. It's something I began late last year and it is building masterminds for women lawyers. So I put women into groups of roughly eight women and they are with their professional cohort. So I've got in-house counsel with in-house counsel, small firm owners, with small firm owners and that sort of thing. And the point is we're creating a trusted, safe space where you can discuss you can get customer feedback that you can't get anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48) - So it really helps these women leverage their time because they've got, you know, instead of instead of an issue going unaddressed for a long time, they've got a place that is trusted, super bound by confidentiality. And you've got a room full of women who understand how you walk in your shoes and give you their take. I love that well, and I participate, so I must put that out there in interconnected us. And so and it has been really amazing to meet different attorneys from different places, different areas of the law and understand and see what we're all struggling with, something super common, super shared and then other things super unique. And I'm like, Oh, cool. We're talking about what women power now. Like I don't get to talk about wind power and solar power and how that might impact things. So yeah, and then the challenge is to be an attorney practicing in that space versus yours and how you get to bounce ideas off one another. So it's just amazing because there's value in being what you want, some level of similarity among the members, but you also want some level of diversity.

Speaker 2 (00:03:51) - And I think the one that you're in is absolutely going just going beautifully in terms of people at different, you know, able to able to give a lot of insight but understand each other as well. Like there's a really important balance there. Now, what in the world made you start this? Like, I mean, here you are juggling life as a mom, a lawyer. I mean, you were just like bored one day and was like, okay, time to start a business. I was born, you know, there was a number of things at once. So it's so hard for me to answer that question succinctly. But I guess I would say the last five years I've been working in the solar industry and really realizing that while that was advancing my values because I care deeply about the environment I have for my whole life, I was an activist in high school. It wasn't bringing out what I love to do the most, which is, you know, personal growth, connecting people on a more like literal level, like networking.

Speaker 2 (00:04:45) - And, you know, you should meet this person and you too can help each other for their goals. But really on a deeper level, this idea that, you know, we are all each other's keeper and you know, just really so many lessons there. So anyway, I had a life. Where I was exposed to masterminds myself with my ex-husband just being his spouse and had the privilege of being in a mastermind group were briefly and I just for the time that it was, it was such a shame that it wasn't available to professional women like myself. You know, that was because he's an entrepreneur. I had access to a world that he's a part of as his spouse, but it just seemed so unfair. And I just so understood the value that when you get people together in a curated space with norms about how the conversation goes and how respect is maintained, in particular with, you know, us alphas who might bristle at getting, you know, advice or told what to do. You know, we have to be we take advice in a very particular way.

Speaker 2 (00:05:42) - And so such a great use of my time. Like I recognized that me participating, it was like, you know, for that little bit of time I'm in those meetings, I get, you know, a whole room full of opinions about my challenge. And so to to others, I just saw what's going on with women in our industry and felt that it was something that they need to get ahead. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think when you talk about women in our industry, I mean, one of the things that I see and it really just kind of breaks my heart a lot is the deep unhappiness in a lot of women in our industry and just in our world and, you know, ecosystems of things like I'll go on a Facebook group and they'll be like a comment about something or a post about something, and there will be hundreds of comments of unhappiness. And I am really blown away by, yeah, the feelings and the almost despair I would say I read and I see.

Speaker 2 (00:06:40) - And because of that I end up talking to a lot of people and then having those deeper conversations with people and really digging in and understanding what is going on. Our profession just I mean, we are at a struggle. We are I mean, I said something to my husband racing. I'm like, we are on the struggle bus as women lawyers big time. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Struggle bus. And I mean, I think that's from where I sit. It seems like it's you know, there's so many different factors contributing to that. Of course, like the pandemic and this epidemic of loneliness and all of that. And, you know, social media and this constant flow of stimulation and just code switching in our mind as we go from one, you know, noticing one thing to another, trying to filter all the noise. What else? I think as lawyers, part of how we self-selected to go to law school and part of what the profession breeds in us before we even get to, you know, sexism, racism and all of that.

Speaker 2 (00:07:36) - Just like the personality of someone who goes to law school. Like, you know, from what I understand, the number one character trait of lawyers is skepticism. And, you know, then we go to school and we're trained to worry, you know, to manage risk and to argue. And those traits might be very beneficial in the American legal system, that right to advance as a lawyer. But you're also a human. And so, I mean, just taking the arguing, for example, like this binary that, you know, at least if you and I have a conflict like, you know, this binary that one of us has to win. But the reality is, in real life, outside of practicing, right, both can be true. You have your perspective. I have mine. I mean, just one of many examples, but that makes it very hard to be a grown up lawyer with grown up healthy relationships. What? Because you're just used to someone winning. And that's just one of many, many patterns that concern me, that I just think that being in a group is very healing, gives us options and it gives people a platform to like, you know, you can be so deep in your own perspective on something, but, you know, you get a room full of people being like, you know, the other person could be thinking this and, you know, you've been there, right? Like, you understand that like, you know, talk people down.

Speaker 2 (00:08:45) - It makes all the difference, I think, to get that perspective. But also, I think to your point of developing community and developing connections that are deeper and that are not the superficial, you know, connections where it's all you know, an Instagram reel of, you know, whatever, right? Where it's really you get to come and show up and, I mean, maybe you don't have your makeup on and you're, you know, a mess, a total hot mess that morning. But you're going to show up and you're going to be there. And, you know, for the other people in the group and I mean that I think that alone is a big deal, like having the other people there and expecting you to be there. And you know what I mean? Like just yeah, having it be a real deeper connection. I appreciate that. Thank you. And yeah, I was going to say, like, I mean, there's someone who shows up in her puppy pajamas. I know.

Speaker 2 (00:09:44) - That would be I don't know either, but it's like one thing I've noticed is like, I see a lot of aversion from women lawyers to talk about the word and the B-word. And this situation means vulnerability and. And I don't mean it to be critical of women lawyers in the profession, right? Like we're killing it out there. We're amazing. Like, don't. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to help this group, you know, that we're both a part of. You know, many of us went into it to, you know, to prove something or because we care about justice or whatnot. And as women, we might have been. I mean, and obviously you and I are just white women. But, you know, we you know, we've been marginalized in some way or multiple ways. And, you know, we want to, you know, assert our voice. We want to do what's right and so on. But I'm concerned in the profession as a whole.

Speaker 2 (00:10:32) - This is not just women that we need to put on such a brave face all the time that it can be very hard for some people to take it off. And that too, can just be so being vulnerable. Appreciate A court of law is weakness, right? But outside of it, this is how we connect. I mean, it's mutual. Like self disclosure is what breeds connection. And so if we're constantly have our mask on so that we look, you know, social media joyful and so on, you know, externally, like, I mean, forget social media, but just with our peers, if we're not really willing to be real, I mean, in our own sense, our own experience, our own like humanity shrinks, that's a piece that I want to combat. You know, I really want to help you get what you need. Well, and I have to tell you, I'm going to challenge something you said. I actually think vulnerability is your greatest strength in the courtroom and in law like the courtroom as well.

Speaker 2 (00:11:28) - And in law. Okay. Tell me more. What do you mean by that? I think when you go in, especially I mean, think of my prior days, you know, doing jury trials in, you know, bazillion years ago. Being able to connect with the jury as a real human was 100% my superpower. Like, you know, just going in and being like, oh, you know, I'm having a dumb blonde moment. Like, I didn't do that, you know, like not making it be this, like, perfect show. And it was, you know, I'd have these usually male much older attorneys as my opponents who are, you know, all buttoned up. You know, it's they came across so stuffy. Do you know what I mean? Like I love that. I totally know. I totally understand what you're saying, that like, your vulnerability, like it's your relatability, it's your humanity in that way with a jury. Right? Right. What I meant what all ability might be a boogeyman to opposing counsel, you know, something that they could exploit.

Speaker 2 (00:12:28) - But I totally appreciate to an audience. I mean, you know, you do a tons of speaking engagements and I'm sure I mean, you know, what I loved about you instantly, like just putting yourself out there and being authentic. But there are ear corn, you know, in that way. There's a lot of people that really can't do that because of their trauma, because their childhoods. Well, and profession just runs with that. Like we just instead of like trying to open people up and help them understand how their authenticity and their vulnerability will be such a powerful force as a lawyer because it will make them more relatable in all those things. We we try to button them up more. You know, the profession, I think just, you know, like you don't want to admit when you make a mistake or you, you know, go through all this craziness. But I see it as us moms to like you'll see a mom, they'll being like, oh, you know, I'm such a bad mom.

Speaker 2 (00:13:24) - I didn't bake whatever for the bake sale. And I'm like, What? Like, is your kid alive? Like, did they show up? Right. But I mean, totally. Are you are you saying like this, moms? It's the criticism from others or what we do to ourselves or both? I think it's both. Yeah. Really Both. I definitely agree. Do you think it's different? I mean, you're you know, you were divorced in the past. Do you think it's different for women who make that go through that chapter? You know, that was probably hard for me to say in that I mean, I think that I had that same voice in my head early on in my mom hood while I was married, But I think post-divorce. I was actually freed by a lot of that because I was like, there's only so much this one girl can accomplish in 24 hours. And, you know, the time I had for young children, you know, in all these different directions and I'm thinking, I'm showing up, you're alive, you're fed like you have clothes on.

Speaker 2 (00:14:24) - I mean, we're we are just like winning the parenting game here, you know, At least you're such an inspiration and your mindset. I mean, I it's your mindset that I'm just so fascinated by. Like your success is secondary. It's like your your mindset to be in that situation and to pull yourself together and do what you need to do. But to I don't know, you have such a joyful way about you. Like I'm just it's fascinating to me that you were able to, you know, get the practice to where it is, you know, with such a challenging chapter. Yeah, well, you know, I definitely think that I know you know this and starting your own business, I mean, I think. Mindset is 90% of the game. Yeah. Isn't it amazing how it's like a lifelong sport? Like when I like I was looking at one of my competitors who says that, you know, she can kind of cure you of anxiety, you know, in a matter of weeks or months.

Speaker 2 (00:15:15) - And it was like, I mean, you know, I meditate at the Rochester Zen Center and there's people there that are in their 70s. And, you know, they'll they'll say openly, like, you know, the meditation gives you a way to relate to your anxiety, but you don't hear yourself of it. Your anxiety could be your superpower. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it can be something that is very powerful in how you are coming out to the world. And I think to your point, it's how you're relating to that anxiety. Yep, right. Like it is. I mean, it's a super power in the profession, right? Letting us anticipate, you know, the outcomes we don't want. But I agree. Like it's been for me, that's been a really important lesson in a place that I continue to kind of go to that well. And second, you know how I relate to my own, you know, challenges like anxiety, including like, Yeah, but you know, it's but I am moving the needle.

Speaker 2 (00:16:07) - It's amazing. Oh, it's so powerful. Well, tell me, I mean, when you as you started this business, I mean, obviously you have these two teenagers or, you know, pre-teen teenagers at home and you're a single mom now. So, I mean, you've got that dynamic. I mean, what was that like for you, like in managing your time and dealing with things? Because I think a lot of people listen to this podcast. You know, they're maybe in the early stages of running their law firm, you know, also having children, trying to negotiate all that. And I think time becomes such a huge piece of when you post about it. I mean, I love when I see your posts about it because it is your most precious, at least for me. When I left corporate went off on my own. There was intellectually I knew that my time is valuable and so on. But you know, maybe because I was working, yeah, I wasn't paid by the hour.

Speaker 2 (00:16:57) - It was a salaried position. I think there was a there was an inside, there was a journey. I went on about how valuable is my time and how am I allocating it. And, you know, I probably like, you know, like you and I have discussed in our group, like delegating as a lifelong journey. Dealing with your anxiety is a lifelong journey, but also how I manage my time. And that goes to boundaries and where I'm willing to say no to things. So I have had a huge lesson around that. I mean, like you, I'm a huge networker. I've made so many friendly, you know, peers, colleagues, new friends in our industry. All of these conversations have been incredible. But, you know, that's just one of many examples. Like, is that what I should do during my limited work time? And I love it. I get a lot of joy from it. But okay, well, that's great. But how do we how does this relate to what you're trying to put out there and the boundaries that you set or don't set in that space? Like just learning? I mean, I just keep learning about getting better and better boundaries.

Speaker 2 (00:17:53) - I feel like I almost see myself internally as this like border guard that's like level, like just keeps getting promoted, like, like the boundaries get better, but also get nice. I've spent a lot of time studying how to set them nicely, right? It's a big deal to me. I just I see a lot of people in our industry get this this black and white, you know, kind of like barriers, not like like Sharon writes about boundaries, not barriers like, you know. So it's just been a very interesting Anyway, that's a long answer to a short question, but managing your time is everything. It's everything. Well, I read a book and I mean, I sometimes feel like I read so many books on running a business. Like, how do I keep having things? And I'm like, Duh. Like, where were you, Elise? How is this the first time you're hearing about this? But I read a book recently, very recently, and it's called Buy Back Your Time.

Speaker 2 (00:18:43) - And I think it was written by a guy named Dan Martell. Absolutely. Game changing, like seriously game changing like everyone I meet now must read this book because it has revolutionized how I think about so many things. And I mean really talking about and I mean, I had a more flimsy process than this, but like about creating your perfect week and creating your calendar in such a way. So I literally went through my office is probably like dying right now. And it says like Elise, water, flowers, Elise, you know, exercise. Eliza Elise, you know, in time with Doug, like, it has this whole thing, all the things. It's pretty powerful when you put it all on there because you're like, Oh, there is not so much time in this day, all these things. So then what I'm seeing that, I mean, I start circling those things and I'm like, That is moving off me. Like, who am I delegating that to? That is no longer in my world.

Speaker 2 (00:19:49) - And so but I mean, this is an exercise that we have to do. I mean, on the regular like, I totally agree. I think it's like. It's such a fundamental where the rubber meets the road kind of conversation. And it's so I mean, I would think you and I are very alike. And I just keep I keep visualizing. I need to draw this and put this on social the seesaw and on one end is we want to be very generous and live in abundance and help others and be a goal giver and all these great things. On the other side of the seesaw is being a feminist and being an attorney and like your time is valuable. You've got really amazing strategy skills. You've got to, you know, bring that can, you know, write and speak and persuade and do all these important high level skills. And so, you know, and then in the middle, to me is kind of your ethics, your values, where, you know, how are you going to make that seesaw balance and do it? Like, for me, it's so important that I still stay close to kindness and compassion.

Speaker 2 (00:20:45) - Oh yeah. But then I don't give it all away like I've tipped that way and many, many long chapters of my life. And you know, then there's others who go the other way, you know, everything's about their value and them making money. And I don't want to be like that. Like, I don't want to give it all away, but I don't. Yeah. So I had an interesting experience the last few weeks. I don't think I've gotten to tell you about. One of these colleagues I befriended was hearing about a new offer that I want to put out within the business. And so she wanted me to speak with an entrepreneur. She's she's close to who is retiring. And the idea was that I might be a good successor for that person and that their their offer might become a part of interconnected us or relate in some way, but that it really aligns with me. So I make friends with this business owner and we have a number of conversations that get progressively longer and longer over the course of three four weeks, I'd say.

Speaker 2 (00:21:39) - And I mean one of the final ones was the second. The last one was so good that I had to take off the rest of the day. I was so excited about all the possibilities and and realized that we had kind of the conversations had gone so deep about connecting about our values that we hadn't gone back to the fundamentals of the business, this business opportunity. And you know, is there a win win? Right? And as it turns out, there's not. Like I finally you know, after that last meeting, I was like, God, I lost a whole day where I was going to spend the morning on my, you know, sales for my business and to get all the important deep work tasks done and blow it all off because, you know, it was such a valuable contact and so on, I just was like, Oh my God, I didn't assert a boundary. Like I, you know, we're only doing business if there's a business opportunity. We're not doing. Like, you know, we spent I mean, she probably got 8 or 12 hours of my daytime heavy, you know, brain space in total.

Speaker 2 (00:22:35) - But the good part was I woke up to it. Ryan, I won't do it again. And I set a boundary like I was so proud of the boundary that I printed that email. Oh, because I did it really nicely. And she wrote back with such grace and it was just like, Yeah, we don't have a Yeah. Now that you say what you need or restate what you need, I can hear you and we can't do that. So, you know, we should stay friends and, you know, check in down the road and so on. And it was like, that was a really proud I have an email where I print out like emails where I like get myself to a new level. And I was like, Oh, this is a keeper. That's really good. I think you have to do that. I think I mean, I'm going to talk about another book. That is something I think we struggle with as women lawyers. We are constantly looking to that gap ahead of us rather than turning our head back and looking at the gain in that.

Speaker 2 (00:23:27) - It is again, one of those. I was like, Well, they agree. I'm like, Elise, why have you not done this? Like, no, I'm totally with you. I mean, that book, I was like, So we have a call within the business where we're getting women together and just like tooting our own horns, like, how would I set that up so that that call would be because if you haven't read the book, you're not understanding what the value is. It just sounds like you would dial in to brag something inside of I'll do it that within the business, like it's so valuable to count your wins. I mean, we started our leadership team meetings in our office with our gains and Alana powerful when we grew, even though we meet every single week. I mean, it's amazing what happens every single week. The win totally. Some of them are huge. Others of them are very small, but they are powerful. It might be like somebody took the Wednesday afternoon off to spend time with their son and they're going to, you know, work on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (00:24:25) - But just enjoying that flexibility we offer. Totally agree with that. Yes, that's a huge win. Mean since I started the business, I've been protecting more and more my need to exercise, which I'd overridden for like 15 years, like my marriage raising young kids. My divorce years mean really, other than the occasional walk with a girlfriend to vent about whatever, you know, there was no consistent regular exercise. And now swimming is like really sacred and, you know, just getting like the emotional support I need for this or that, this sacred time and like, that's a win. That's a huge win. That is so leveraged, right? Like it's not like a huge sale. It's not the kind of thing I'm going to get a big pat on the back from whatever, but it's like having my own back. It's fantastic that many times when you're swimming and if you're a follow the black line girl and you literally swim laps, you will come up with brilliant ideas along that black line. Are you ready to unlock your full growth potential, both professionally and personally? The Guild Maximum Lawyers Exclusive Community of Legal Entrepreneurs invites you to our upcoming in-person.

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Speaker 2 (00:26:21) - I have found I mean swimming as one other running just through the years to be such great opportunities to really think about things, you know, have real mental breakthroughs. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Like sometimes I'm consciously swim thinking and other times I'm trying not to think.

Speaker 2 (00:26:42) - Like sometimes I'm really trying to notice the bubbles and, you know, the, the water, you know how my body feels and all that because I'm really trying to, like, get a brain break. But I agree with you, like today. And I swam laps this morning and absolutely, I was kind of like going over my list of all the things that like recent wins and also things that I got mostly resolved in my mind, but not completely like just some decisions and kind of like solidifying them. Yeah, it's magical. And it's so funny. Like one of the other women in the circle recently was just talking about how like, God, it's everything that we were told to do during preschool, like exercise, nap, eat your vegetables, like be nice to your friend. It's like, yeah, yeah, solid advice. Well, you know, solid. It's funny, the only time in all the years that I have been doing this life sport that we do, you know, failing, succeeding all the things.

Speaker 2 (00:27:34) - Tennis is the only exercise that is allowed me to actually shut off my brain because I must follow that little ball around. I cannot think of anything our most rejuvenating exercise as far as truly shutting off my brain. So I just wanted to put it out there in case you ever would consider one of those handball kind of sports, because I bet, like, softball might be similar pickleball. Yeah. But I mean, and it dawned on me after I played tennis probably about six months to a year, and I was like, what is this about this? I was like, addicted to tennis. Yeah, really? I was like, I cannot think about it. At the time, I was mostly just rearing my children. I couldn't think about the kids. I couldn't think about each kid's problem that I was supposed to be, you know, trying to work through or whatever. All I could think about was that little ball and making sure I was ready to hit it. And I love that you got so absorbed in it.

Speaker 2 (00:28:36) - That's magical. Yeah, it wasn't magical. And now are you a dancer? Have you ever. I feel like you might be a dancer. You're not. I did ballet, but as a young child, like, you know, I was about 13. Then I went to sports, you know, played like, soccer. Volleyball. Oh, got it. Okay. Okay. I didn't really do team sports. I'm more like yoga, swimming, aerobics, class, like that kind of thing. So it's like tennis, Like, come on, there's like a ball and rules like. Like, how is that going to work? Barely do, like, kickball, Like love. Don't even know what that is. You might really love it. I might really love it. I totally. Yeah, I know. Just the other day, my turn off switch. Anything that turns it off. Honestly, I mean that's that's another thing that I think women lawyers are all lawyers, you know, it's like that constant.

Speaker 2 (00:29:25) - I'm going to intellectualize everything going on in my life. And even if they read all this, you know, stuff in the Zeit geist about, you know, needing to turn off your mind like not protecting that time for that enough to really develop that skill set or just get into spaces like a tennis court or, you know, for me, a meditation cushion or whatever where you're like really doing what you can to quiet. It's such an important shift. It's huge. Well, the thought I mean, meditation is something I love. I can only do guided meditation, though. I'm one of those people that I can't. Do silent meditation. I'm pathetic. My brain is just pathetic. Please, Alice, I just have to say this. It's. That's like saying, like, well, I can't play cello because I sat in front of a cello, you know, five times, and I didn't master it. Like, it's called practice. Like, you're extremely normal. I can tell you that.

Speaker 2 (00:30:16) - We're all like that at the Zen Center, like, you know, and trying and be constant messaging from the people who are more senior with their practices that like all of that self criticism, right? Like there it is again. Like it's just it's just in another platform just showing up like, oh, I can't not good at this. I can't concentrate. This is hard. Why have I been at this so many years? I mean, there's people who've been working at it for decades. I mean, like, like, Oh, yeah, there's multiple people that mean in a huge segment of the membership that's like, you know, hippies that are now in their 70s and they've been working at it for decades and they're not all like some, but, but it's not about I don't know, I don't want to go on a rabbit hole about Zen here. But but it's a challenge. It's really a challenge. Concentration is exactly the opposite of what our culture is. Oh, it's training our brains to do, right.

Speaker 2 (00:31:05) - All this stupid, multitasking, you know, rewards. Like it's it's you're rewiring back to a healthier way. You're rewiring. Exactly. One of my sons said the other day, he just randomly he is like, we have created a whole society of people that can't do anything for more than 40s. He goes, It's really wild. And I was literally wild. Yeah, really wild. Somebody also said to me, and I thought it was interesting, you know, we talk about not reading as much anymore, like not reading books and whatever, but the amount of information we are taking in. They said it was almost like reading The Hobbit every single day, you know, with the amount. Wow. And I was like, Oh, my God. Wow. So let's say this is a question I've got for you so I can interview the interviewer. You know something my shrink said to me was, Here's another challenge in the industry. She said, I really would like you to consider reading more fiction because and it like took me years to understand why, no matter how much she talked, I like, wasn't ready to really hear it.

Speaker 2 (00:32:11) - But like this notion that I need to be productive, I would all the time completely. Oh my God. Yeah. Like, do you read fiction? I do, but it's just recent. I mean, yeah, build my firm stage. So, you know, for the last, like, eight years. No, What? I have read fiction because I literally I had too much to do. I had too much to learn in my mind that, you know, because really to develop and to build your firm. I mean, the main thing I was doing was developing myself as a leader, which meant like breaking down a lot of those, you know, bad habits and things that I needed to work on and that inner work. And so, you know, trying to juggle four, six kids, depending on, you know, who was in our home at the time. Like, that's a lot. Do you know what I mean? There was not a lot of time for fiction TV.

Speaker 2 (00:33:05) - I mean, there's an entire 15 years that I did not watch a TV show. Like, so totally get it. I've never. We are aligned. Yeah. Yeah, we are. We are aligned. They're like, I don't understand when like I hear busy people talk about like to me it's such an inefficient way to unwind. Like, get outside. Yeah, I can't do it. I'm not. I can't do it either. I can't do it either. Lots of campfires lately. And my backyard. I'm loving it. Lovely. I'm loving it. Like a couple of weeks ago, I had a bunch of good friends. We just sat around. A lot of them didn't. You know, I'm an introvert in some ways, and so a lot of my friends are 1 to 1 friendships. They don't know each other. And also I've gone through changes. So there's that too. And so it just the brain is wonderful people together and they were all so lit up by each other and it was just like, I love making connections.

Speaker 2 (00:33:53) - This is what I love to do, you know? And it just and then the, you know, also the fire like this is accurate or not. My brother had said to me that like that there's like brain science to it that staring at a fire does something like very good for our brains. And it was just it was just so lovely, you know, the dog made her rounds and sat on everyone's lap and it was just so nice. I love that. Well, and I'd love for you that you're in that stage two where your children are old enough, where you know both when they're there with you, they're old enough to be, you know, entertaining themselves. But also then they have that time with their dad, you know, which is really positive and allows you to have some really good quality time. And as a divorce attorney trying to explain that to people when they're like, I need all the custody. And I'm like, No, you don't. I promise one day you are going to not be happy if you have all the custody.

Speaker 2 (00:34:47) - Yeah, yeah. I think I understood from a very, very, very early, early on that like 5050 would be just fine. Like, but, you know, I know a lot of others who really struggled with not having the kid. All the time. And like I you know, I think because of whatever who I am, my family, my childhood, like there's always been this rich life of Rachel doing Rachel's thing that had nothing to do with motherhood. There's so much to say there. I'm experiencing motherhood at a renewed, deeper level lately. That's just really great too. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's because of the business. I think it's more because of some of the inner work that we've talked about, but it's unbelievable. I feel like I'm seeing my kids needs and desires and strengths on deeper and deeper levels, and our interactions are just getting more and more important. I mean, it's also probably because of their ages, like we're discussing things like they're, you know, they're transitioning to being men.

Speaker 2 (00:35:39) - And it's like there's so much I got to make sure they know, you know. But, you know, I also feel like, oh, the time is finite. Like I need I really want to that I need to try to get away from saying that. But I just really want to build this book of memories, you know? And I know that you had such a joy mothering and you know, others that I talk with. It's so inspiring. So I feel like the single mom sometimes. I have gone through big stretches of being overwhelmed and harried and so on and like just really like doing what I've needed to do to be present and, you know, be present, be kinder to myself, be kinder to others. Like it's just it's been such a journey. I mean, that's so powerful for your boys to see. Thank you. Thank you. I had, um. Can I tell you a quick story? Yeah. I had a conflict with one of my kids. He's a camp counselor for the first time at the JC down the street.

Speaker 2 (00:36:31) - And I said to him, you know, because I need to spend time on the business like you're going to be biking to camp. And he flipped out on me and I was like, you know, part of me was, you know, like, who the heck are you? This is my right to say, you know, to dictate how you're going to do this. And so on, this very top down approach. And while I still think that's correct on some level, like I'm still his mom, not his chauffeur and so on, what I was ignoring was so so he gets furious. He gives me silent treatment for a couple hours. Um, you know, I've done the work, so I no longer am kind of like begging for him to forgive me and so on. I'm kind of just doing my own thing and finally getting okay with the fact that he's in emotional pain. I don't have to go fix it right away. And and we come together. But I've said because I've studied nonviolent communication, we got we we now are building this book of experiences where we reconcile our differences and we sit on the couch and we took out the book because there's a framework there that the kids still need to see for a reminder.

Speaker 2 (00:37:30) - And we each said like what we needed and so on. And it was just like, I mean, it didn't end with a return to how it was before it ended better. It was like rupture and repair. But the repair makes you, you know, more grounded in each other. It's like now we're like, we're safer to disagreeing is going to be safer and safer because we have this way to really see each other and communicate really healthily. Oh, I just think that is, I mean, game changing to be able to sit down and have that kind of conversation. I mean, to really understand, like, why was he flipping out about the thing and yeah, what did you need in that moment or with your plan? But I mean, just being able to have that communication in a safe way, imagine how that is going to change his brain as he's having conflicts. Do you know what I mean? Italy Oh, totally. And as it relates to just narrowly, he and I over the rest of our lives, I mean, his reason for being outraged was, mom, you know, I hate biking.

Speaker 2 (00:38:32) - So, you know, he was just feeling really unseen and like that's something that I'm sensitive about when I feel like, you know, people in my inner world don't see me. Don't get me. Like, that is very painful. And so, you know, I don't know if he just inherited my trauma or whatever, but or if he was this is a, you know, a common human experience like it was. So it was incredible to go through that little exercise together and to, like, just have this aha. Like, it's not about the biking, like from my perspective, it was about my convenience so I could focus on my business. It was just about it wasn't about trying to strongarm him, control him. It was really just about my own. And he's like, Well, if I arrange a carpool, would that work? And we started to explore like other resolutions where, you know, might be the win win. And it was just, Oh God, I'm so grateful that I mean, that's something else I would love to bring to women lawyers or just to all lawyers is violent story after story after story of how a conflict that used to go one way, you know, when another way when the other part is willing to engage or and then there's some where it's just simply the other party is not willing to do their side.

Speaker 2 (00:39:38) - But I'll do mine and it's good enough to save myself. Really. Well, I mean, I talk about it a lot in co-parenting, you know, when I'm working with very high conflict co-parents, I'm like, It takes one of you to get this down pat. And yes, if one of you can get it down pat, the amount of decrease in the. Conflict is pretty noticeable. Noticeable that the children will be impacted, I mean positively by the lack of conflict. And then, you know, not negatively, because only one of you will be doing the thing internally, right? That tends to go down too, because after a while, doing that thing on your own doesn't bring the same joy to the person who's, you know, used to engaging in the conflict and helping people to understand. I mean, I'm like, it takes one sane parent to make your child psychology better, like, so if we can. I love that. Yeah, it's under control. Yeah. We can really make an inroad, you know, positively into your children.

Speaker 2 (00:40:42) - Oh, yeah. I think it's an amazing skill set. And in it, I mean, it's helped me with friendships with my family. I mean, my, my, I love this. I mean, I need to tell this story more publicly, but I had this it was a quick thing my father said to me about a year, year and a half ago, and I studied nonviolent communication maybe three years ago. So he said to me a year or so ago, you know, the way you're parenting the 14 year old, like, I just think you're you're acting really you're controlling him too much. He needs more space. And at first, you know, the lawyer in me, the feminist lawyer is like, oh, that's rich. You know, like where to learn that, you know? And I was just super defensive and angry. But because I'd studied nonviolent communication, I was like, You really care about his independence, don't you? And he's like, I do. I was like, I care about it, too.

Speaker 2 (00:41:26) - And we had made a connection. So then, you know, the natural next thing to say is like, you know, either I'll think about, you know, the particular behavior change he wanted to see in me or how I could accomplish this kid getting more independent on my terms. But it created connection where, you know, it was just because I had studied how to bring empathy into that conflict. Right? Oh, yeah. I mean, don't we all say it's all in the communication? I mean, it is. It's amazing. I know. But I think I mean, do you see lawyers studying this anywhere? Like, to me, this is so needed. I mean, I think law school I mean, this a whole nother conversation. We'll have to have another podcast. Yeah. Law school literally should become like a year and a half. Maybe, maybe two. And then could we put a year on of practical learning? I mean, awesome emotional intelligence communications. Yeah. So this business, I mean, how to navigate, you know, the things we lawyers do navigate all the time and nobody how to write an in a billing entry.

Speaker 2 (00:42:31) - I mean, I have lawyers, though. I'm out of law school and, you know, they'll write this billing entry. And I'm thinking, oh, okay, we got to start from scratch here, you know? But I mean, I've to learn how Yeah, I mean, nobody teaches us how to do that. And yeah, it's just, I mean, and I think there's so much around wellness and how do we, you know, maintain our mental health in this profession? I mean. Yes. I mean, do you think that the billable hours makes it like fuels the workaholism that's so pervasive? Do you think that what drives people being so addicted to work and their inability to slow down, it's just the just the money, money, money, money, money. Oh, definitely. And I think just the you know, I mean, depending on people's hourly requirements and what it looks like, like I think as law firm owners, we have to pull these hours down like we are creating these models where I mean, and especially obviously in big law where these, you know, very senior partners are just making absurd amounts of money, you know, on the backs of their associates.

Speaker 2 (00:43:34) - And it's just I mean, without regard to their associates mental health, I mean, when I see people with, you know, billable hour requirements, you know, 2000, 2000, 200, I mean, in my prior life as an insurance defense attorney, we had a 2400 hour requirement that was like completely normal. I mean, now I'm like, what? I mean, you know, my attorneys are more like in the 1350 kind of range. And that's definitely doable. I mean, I can see that they can get their work done, all of it non billable and billable in 40 hours, I mean, very easily. And I don't mean to say easy, but you know what I mean. Very like no problem. And I mean with working, you know, 44 ish weeks a year, like that's a pretty, I think solid, you know, life work integration where you're, you know, able to do the things. But even also as a law firm owner, like having people tell me what hours work for them, the insanity that I dictate everybody's hours and naked where it's uniform, to me, that's so insane.

Speaker 2 (00:44:45) - Why do we can we not have nuance? Like, why do we not look at the life cycle of people? Like as a young lawyer with no children, you might have a different energy level and a. Time when you're at home with three kids and two of them have special needs, you might have different you know, you might need something different. In in our firm, we roll with that like we are up and down and people come and go, you know, with their hourly requirements. And so I'm so curious to hear like, I mean, just every time we're talking about this topic, I'm so curious to hear if you're leveraging yourself yet and influencing the profession. Like this is so important. I'm so excited to hear others, you know, model your, you know, use the bully firm ownership model and, you know, the billable hour model and, you know all of it like it's just incredible. Yeah. Well I mean no I have not done and you know this I mean, I'm in my year of peace.

Speaker 2 (00:45:45) - And so I definitely, you know, we talk about boundaries like I have been pretty intentional in 2023 of just like kind of bringing things in and figuring out like what is next, what will next look like, and really just enjoying some peace because 2022 was just kind of rough and that was a big deal for me to just admit that that 20 I think it's great. Yeah, you're such a positive person that I would imagine it's hard to spit out that it was a hard year, but to spit it out, to find the courage to spit it out and then further courage to protect the time to heal. Yeah. Is heroic. And that's another example of how you're a leader. I mean, it's just it's that's not an easy that's a win that needs to be celebrated. That's awesome. Isn't that a funny win? But I agree with you. I do think having, you know, being very intentional has been, I think, really important. And I think it's been good for my firm, too.

Speaker 2 (00:46:41) - You know, like by us not pushing hard in certain areas, it's given everybody some peace. And I mean, we've had people in our firm, I mean, somebody who lost like a significant other. I feel like we were in a better spot to kind of, you know, deal with that even as like we were in a more peaceful state and we created this like PTO volunteer, like, you know, donate policy thing. Because initially when her partner passed away, she was like, okay, well, I'm going to come back to work, you know? And this was like, what? I'm like, No, you're not. I was like, You need like, time and space and, you know, but then there's all this employment lawyer stuff, like, you know, if I give her all this time, like, then what does that look like? So, you know, I had to follow all the laws of what I can do and not do because my natural inclination was just like, It's fine, take off, it'll be fine.

Speaker 2 (00:47:33) - But we created this donation policy. But then I was able to match all the donations. So to, you know, double the impact of what? Yeah, that was so powerful to see the people in the office be able to offer to their coworker. Wow. Their time, their money. I mean, like cash donations, time donations. And it was so powerful and it gave me so much gratitude to be able to match those. I was just like, absolutely tickled pink. Oh, my God. And I went from where I said, The courage that you went off on your own and created this company that has, you know, your amazing values. And like all of the bushwhacking you had to do to create policies where none exists, you know, like where you've had to build something that, you know, is so rare in our industry, if at all. I mean, I have to imagine you don't I don't know, like who you look up to. I mean, it's incredible.

Speaker 2 (00:48:30) - It's like incredible. And I'm grateful you exist. Like, I just think it's incredible. Well, I just. Because you're the pod host. Yeah. No, I so appreciate you spending your time with us today and talking to us about interconnected us. One thing that I would love to do, if it's okay with you, is just put the link to interconnected us in our own so people and reach out. And I mean, you know, there might be other moms that would like to hear more about what you're doing and how to get involved in a mastermind. What is the best way for somebody to reach you if they want to reach out and, you know, learn more about interconnected us? Absolutely. They can connect with me on social. I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook. They also can go to our website and just, you know, if they're interested and what they see, they can apply right there and that'll kick them towards setting up an appointment with me. So any of those would be great.

Speaker 2 (00:49:21) - And a friend of yours is a friend of mine, including all your pod listeners. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate and hope you have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 1 (00:49:29) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast. A production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Flora Garcia-Sepulveda. 

Flora Garcia-Sepulveda, a founding partner of Woodman & Garcia-Sepulveda and a Certified Family Law Specialist, is an experienced trial lawyer who practices family law exclusively, focusing on diverse financial issues including business valuation, property division and child and spousal support. Flora is fluent in Spanish. Flora also represents clients in difficult custody disputes and move-away cases.

Before she opened her practice, she worked at Bay Area Legal Aid a non-profit Agency representing victims of domestic violence in their restraining orders, divorce and immigration matters. Flora began to practice family law exclusively in 2005, and has focused in this area of law since that time. Flora previous work at the San Mateo Court and her domestic violence litigation background results in the smooth management of her family law cases as they progress to trial. Her attention to detail and knowledge of the intricacies of family law procedure enable her to strategically plan her cases and prepare for settlement or trial in a way that ensures that clients are receiving the best and most comprehensive representation available.

Since 2012 Flora expanded her practice to include probate matters such as wills, trusts, guardianships, conservatorships and step-parent adoptions.

Episode Highlights:

05:34 The importance of education in building resilience

07:53 Teaching her daughters to be self-sufficient 

11:00 Discussion on the need to educate people about the long-term ramifications of staying at home 

19:08 The value of teaching children self-sufficiency and the importance of not doing everything for them

30:58 The need to let go of bitterness and victim mentality 

34:14 The importance of educating and empowering women

37:30 The benefits of remote work and flexibility, particularly for working mothers, and how it can lead to increased productivity and work-life balance

📹 Watch the interview here.

Resources:

Transcript: Empowering Women Through Education with Flora Garcia-Sepulveda

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Maximum Mom with a least boy, where you'll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We're here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be.

Elise Buie (00:00:28) - Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast. I am so happy today to have Flora Garcia Sepulveda. Did I do it right? You did perfectly. We were joking about we both have a lot of vowels in our names, so it's just super easy to mess up. Thank you so much for joining me today, Flora. Thank you for inviting me. I was so excited when I was invited, to be honest with you. I love that. That makes me happy. Well, first, tell us who makes up your family. We're just going to get that out there. And then we can talk about all the other things.

Elise Buie (00:01:01) - Tell us who's in your family for women, actually. So it's in it's three generations. So it's my two daughters. My oldest actually is away at college, my teenage daughter, who's 16, and my mom, who is 80 years old and myself. That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I went like a video camera on this family. Oh, okay. We'll dig into that. Tell us about your farm as well. Where do you practice? What do you practice the name of your firm, how long you've been doing at all those good things? My firm is a law firm. I practice in California in mostly San Mateo County. I've been practicing for 25 years, mostly in San Mateo County, but I do practice in Santa Clara, Alameda, San Francisco and Contra Costa County, Santa Clara County, but mostly San Mateo County. I started practicing when I graduated from law school. I got very, very lucky that I got a job working at the courthouse in San Mateo County. Oh, wow.

Elise Buie (00:02:04) - So you really have been there, I mean, since the beginning of your practice? Yes, I have been there. Yes. I was very lucky. You do family law as well as some probate work and guardianship. I do family law, primarily family law. I do probate and probate wills and trusts. I do guardianships, conservatorships, the whole gamut of family law mostly. And I do stepparent adoptions also, which those are the happy. I call them the happy part of family law, which are the adoptions. Absolutely. I used to love Adoption Day. There was a time in my practice I did a lot of dependency work and so was in court regularly. And you would see on Adoption Day, you know, everyone was dressed up, everyone was super happy and the families would come in. I just loved Adoption Day. Correct. I love it because the judges, they are so nice. It doesn't matter which county and the adoption judge in every county and it doesn't matter. Like I said, they have like on the side, they have a shelf where they have toys or whatever for the kids.

Elise Buie (00:03:09) - It doesn't matter. On the age, I just did a stepparent adoption for an older adult and they cry. It doesn't matter because it's so you're uniting a family. And this older gentleman who was being adopted by his stepfather, who had been in his life for over 20 years, and the judge said, you know, would you like something? And he took I think it was a very small stuffed animal. And they take a picture with the judge, which they they really, really treasure it. And afterwards, what they both told me, it's like I this was a, you know, really good experience. And it's great because it's a great experience for them to feel a positive experience with the court. 100%. Oh, my gosh. I so agree with you. I wish we could provide positive experiences with the court for everybody because, wow, do our divorce litigants not always feel that same way? Mean? And I feel for people because their only experience with the court sometimes is with a divorce or something that often is not positive.

Elise Buie (00:04:17) - You know, like I'm not saying courts, you know, might not treat them respectfully and do all the things, but mean it's very difficult sometimes, you know, for them to have positive experiences with the court process. It's very difficult because there are anxiety level is so high. And then because, you know, you're in this fight or flight situation, you're not taking in the information correctly, you're not absorbing the information. So in your reactions to whatever you're receiving are a certain way and then the person reacts to that. So there's not a positive reaction. So the adoptions, that's why I call them the happy. Part of family law is everything's positive. It starts out positive. It ends positive. Oh, yeah, it makes all the difference. Well, I mean, that really ties into what I really want to talk to you about is resilience. You think about how can you learn to handle some of those other those fight or flight kind of situations in a way where you can take in the information and you can hear it? I mean, talk to me a little bit about I mean, you must be yourself a very resilient person.

Elise Buie (00:05:34) - I mean, you have been practicing family law for 25 years raising these two daughters. I mean, tell us a little bit about your view on resilience and how do you help teach resilience to your own children? Well, the reason why I started out with resilience is because you need it and you have to have it. And the way that I do it is by education, education, education, education. And I started out with honestly, like I told you, I started out working at the court. I got very lucky when I graduated from law school to be hired as a research attorney. And honestly, the attorney that hired me put that label on me because she couldn't find a different label. But what I was there is to help people who are representing themselves. Then their family law cases give them information on forms, process and giving them the law on how to represent themselves. So what I was there is to educate them on how to fill out the form, what the process was. So what I've learned and it was a great experience I worked there for five years is if you educate people in the process and the forms they are, they are better prepared if they can't afford an attorney to represent themselves.

Elise Buie (00:06:50) - So I took that into my practice when I opened up. My practice is I am a great advocate of educating people about the process. I don't think, as I learned some attorneys as I know more than you do client and right that let me run your life for you know first thing I do is I explain to them the process. These are the steps. And I have broken them down to four steps and this is what needs to be done. And if it needs to be given to them again, I give it to them again. And if they need the information again, I give it to them again. And I tell them, Look, no question is stupid if you need an answer to it and I provide them, you know, the information or I give them a case, I said, You're intelligent enough to read a case, you're intelligent enough to read the forms. The forms are made for people who are representing themselves to fill them out. So that's what I think about resilience. And I've taught my daughters to be self sufficient young ladies.

Elise Buie (00:07:53) - And that's what I told them. If there's an issue that comes up, you try and deal with it yourself and if they won't listen to you, then you bring in Mama Bear. But they don't want Mama Bear to show up because then it's going to be, you know, then it's going to be an issue for them. But that's where I deal with resilience. The other thing is my husband, the father of my children, he lost his job three months after I gave birth to my youngest daughter. And so I was supposed to stay home for a few months after I gave birth to her. So here I was. You have to get up. You have to go to work, start open your practice again and work. And that's what I did. If it wasn't for my education and learning a work ethic, then we wouldn't have been able to continue and survive and support our family. So that's what I think about resilience. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that immediate you need to work to put food on the table is a pretty powerful tool to building some resilience because I find it I mean, I've watched it both for myself.

Elise Buie (00:09:00) - You know, I was a stay at home mom for a while. I had pulled back from my work to stay at home. And then when it was time to divorce and, you know, move on, being able to literally go back and be the one and be the sole provider for my children was a huge thing. And I know for me, that's one of the things I deal with a lot in talking with clients and people who are thinking about, you know, being a stay at home mom and not being a stay at home mom and really understanding some of those dynamics, too, of what is the decision you're making now, but what are the future implications of that decision? And obviously, I'm not saying that people can't decide to be a stay at home mom, like if that's exactly too great. But I think it is so important for people to understand kind of like what the potential ramifications are because it's a pretty eye opening experience when it's time to like all of a sudden you need to go back and become the breadwinner.

Elise Buie (00:09:59) - Have those clients also. And it's very the way that I explain it to them is, look, what would you have done if let's say you're not going through a divorce, but your spouse all of a sudden has a disability or your spouse passes away all of a sudden, and how are you going to support the family? And it's I'm not against mom staying at home, but I do want and this is one of the things that I that I find that we need to do for women is they should not give up their ability to work, keep a toe in the water, as I say, because you never know what fate life is going to give you. Yes, I dreamt of being a stay at home mom, but the realities of it is I couldn't. And so I did what I had to do. And there are women that are very lucky that they can. But there are, like you said, ramifications afterwards. There are women that are I am, you know, representing in a divorce, and they are in shock at me.

Elise Buie (00:11:00) - I'm not going to be supported. What do you mean? I can't live in this house that I've been used to, but I should be supported because I spent X number of years taking care of my children. And no, that's not the reality. That's not life. That's not long. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing, I think, to have those conversations and help people. I mean, to your point of education and really educating people on what is reasonable to expect. And obviously every state is different. You know, whether you're a community property state, not a community property state, all kinds of differences all around. And I think that so many people just don't have a clue about the ramifications of that decision to stay at home. And not only in the short term of like needing to get back to work, but sometimes very long term permanent ramifications of lost earning potential lost retirement savings potential that, you know, they will be dealing with forever for the rest of forever. Again, people can make that choice, But absolutely doing it from a place of education and empowerment is the key.

Elise Buie (00:12:13) - Exactly. And that's why I was talking about resilience, is you have to have that education instead of great. You want to be a mom. I wanted to be a mom also, and I became a mom. But you have to think about that. You spent however many years in college or doing a masters, whatever it is, and then you're staying home, but you're losing those years of making X number of dollars for yourself, right? It isn't just for your spouse, but for yourself also. Again, women are living longer. Oh yeah. And we need to think about how we are going to support ourselves for until our 9000s. My grandmother died at 101. Wow. Oh, my gosh. That's a lot when you really think about that, about supporting yourself to 100. I mean, that is a big difference, I think, between a lot of people. Kind of think of it as I'm getting to 65, 70 like and then I don't know what they think is happening, but they kind of think like Social Security is kicking in and like, that's not going to solve your day to day problems.

Elise Buie (00:13:23) - No, not for example, in California, where a one bedroom car, you know, rent is $2,000. That's just rent. We're not even talking about everything else. And Social Security, if you're lucky, you get 1200. How many roommates are you going to need, Right? No, it's a real thing. It is a real thing. I can only imagine what it is like living in your home. So is it is the four. I mean, I know you have the one daughter in college. Is it the four of you at home? Just the four of you in your home? Yes. Wow. That is a lot of powerful women like to have. I can only imagine the conversations and what it looks like. Mean it. I think of it. I mean, we have such a different dynamic in that we have a large brood. They're all young adults, so they're all out of the home. But when they're around and when they were in the home, it was, you know, three on three, three girls, three boys.

Elise Buie (00:14:18) - So there was like a massive, you know, give and take mean. I would have my like Smith graduate daughter, you know, who's like reproductive rights law school having these like very deep conversations with her Marine brother. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, like very different, you know, And we would just sit at the kitchen table practically, like with that ping pong, you know, get a glass of wine and just watch them go at it. And I was like, I want they're going to solve these world, you know, gender problems right here. Well, you know, picture this. My mom is from Mexico and she's 80 years old. She's very set in her ways. You know, the culture is so different and what she has seen in her 80 years. And then you have my daughter from Colombia with her ideas when she comes to visit us. And my mom is just shocked at the things that come out of her mouth because she's like, oh my God, let me throw some lolly water on her.

Elise Buie (00:15:19) - Oh, my God. And so my daughter and I have these conversations and my 16 year old is just absorbing all of this. She's like, you know, her eyes are huge, like saucers because she's at rest. I can't wait to go to college. So it'd be interesting with my 20 year old comes home because we have the best conversations. I mean, we we face time 3 to 4 times a week still on my 20 year old. And I, you know, she calls me when she's back in school, when she has issues with some essays. And I love that. I love having those conversations with her. Oh, yeah. Watching them develop into young adults has been such a fun adventure for me. I have absolutely loved it. And watching that relationship, you know, change from, you know, that independent dependent, you know, whole thing, you're, you know, helping them grow up to being adults and being able to have those conversations. I mean, I love the bluntness of it, like being able to say to my children, like, you know, I wouldn't do that.

Elise Buie (00:16:23) - Like, that is not how I would do that. But I completely understand why you're doing it. And, you know, but being able to say like, this is what I really think about it, you know, and, and be able to hear them, what they really think about things and know that, you know, we're adults, we're on different paths. We have different ideas on things. And you want that, you know, you want them to be thinking on their own. Yes, exactly. Like she was having a conversation with me and she kept saying they they and I'm like, how many of you are there? And she's like, Just two of us. And it's that whole conversation about, So your friend is a day. Okay, I understand that because I'm still under the 80 words and it's trying to learn the vocabulary also of today. Is she like, Mom, get with it. I'm like, I'm trying to, but my 80s brain is trying to race towards today.

Elise Buie (00:17:17) - And so her friend, she's introduced me to a couple of her roommates and they're like, they call me mom. She's like, Your mom is so cool. And she's like, No, she's not. But I was like, Gosh, I love that. Now we're in college. Where do you. Oh, wow. Does she love that? She loves it. She loves New York. She is a go getter. She's a smarty pants. I just love it. I love that she's learning over there what she's learning over there. It's perfect for her personality. That's amazing. Have you been able to visit her and enjoy some time over in New York? I have. I visited her twice. I think the next time will be for her graduation. She is going to be a junior coming up, so it'll be for her graduation. But it's been fun visiting her. Oh, yeah. Well, it's such a great city. I mean, you know, learning and explore. I mean, there's just endless possibilities.

Elise Buie (00:18:09) - Oh, and she tells me about that also. So she is enjoying herself, which I'm glad. I'm glad that she's becoming an independent young woman in the city, which is great. She's learning a lot. And again, she's learning resilience. You know, whatever was not covered by the scholarship. She has learned to get a job. She's supporting herself. And that's the thing that I'm teaching both of my daughters. Absolutely. I was reading something just recently and somebody was talking about buying their child a car, their 16 year old. And it was like, oh, well, you know, he didn't gawk at like a BMW in an Acura. So I think those would be okay. And I'm thinking to myself, you are going to buy your 16 year old child a luxury car with just like, what crazy are we trying to teach our children? I mean, I am just the opposite. I was kind of like, how little can I give you to do anything? Like, you need to go figure this out.

Elise Buie (00:19:08) - You need to get a job. You need to understand the value of a dollar. And I mean, if you're going to buy a car, you're going to buy a car based on the earnings from your job. And likely it's going to be a 20 year old, something you know that you can afford. And it is fascinating to me because I just worry so much about children that are being raised like young, young children today. I feel like somehow the culture of our world, at least in the United States, has become this. Women are supposed to do everything like we're supposed to, you know, like work. We're supposed to bring in the money. We're supposed to also, like be the room parent. We're supposed to bake things. We're supposed to do this. And I'm like, this is just not reasonable. Like, there's not enough time in the. Day for us to do all these things. And children are so competent. All you have to do is teach them they can do laundry, make lunches, make breakfast, clean up.

Elise Buie (00:20:11) - I sometimes I read things in like Facebook groups and I'm like, oh my gosh, I was the meanest mom on the planet because, I mean, working, doing their thing. I mean, I didn't touch their laundry after they were like eight. I was just like, You can do your laundry. I mean, you don't need me push buttons on a washing machine.

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Elise Buie (00:21:21) - I told my assistant, You know, she's young, she's 32, and when she first started working with me, she was like, I had to make the lunches for my kids. I have to do this. I'm like, No, you don't. They are competent. They can do it. I haven't been doing that for my kids since they were in kindergarten completely. When they were in kindergarten, I told them, Here's the food. You can make your lunch, each of you. If you don't make your lunch, then you don't eat. It may sound harsh, but they had to learn that when they were 7 or 8 years old, they each were learning how to do their laundry. They had a uniform. Wasn't that difficult to put the uniform at the end of the week or uniforms at the end of the week. Put it in the washer and the dryer. They had learned that again, resilient self sufficiency, learn how to be and do as an adult later on.

Elise Buie (00:22:10) - And so and she's like, you did that. I had to. And I said to her, look, the reality is you can't give 100% three times. You can't. I mean, that is you have hit the nail on the head. You cannot give 100% three times or four times or five times or six times. And women are making themselves so miserable in this life right now. I just I see so many women who are just absolutely I mean, fundamentally, deeply unhappy because what they're trying to accomplish and I'm like, I don't understand why you would be trying to accomplish this. I'm like, it's impossible. I don't understand it either. And I think part of it is trying to I don't know, trying to create a false reality of what home life is like, what I saw in the Bay Area and I'm glad I moved when I did is this competition and it's not good competition. Competition of who has the best life, who has the best car, who has the best house, and talking about cars.

Elise Buie (00:23:20) - My oldest daughter got a scholarship to go to a very expensive high school in the Bay Area and she saw that and she saw when the kids, most of them turned 16, their parents gave them Teslas or Mercedes or BMW. And so she didn't get one, obviously, because she was on scholarship and she still doesn't have a car. My 20 year old, she's like, I don't need one. I'm in New York. But at the end of there was one of her classmates that got two cars. So his dad I know for this for the auction at the school, his dad auctioned for two parking spots at the school for the son to have the option of parking the car in the middle of these two parking spots so the car wouldn't get scratched. But but I agree with you is that when kids are given all of this, they don't value anything. And what she saw in some of her friends and some of her classmates, it's that they didn't understand the value or the where the money came from.

Elise Buie (00:24:22) - I've been very honest with my children from the beginning what the cost of everything is, and especially since my divorce, this is how much the rent is, this is how much electricity is, this is how much food is, and this is what the budget is. So we need to know what our budget is in order to understand what we can and cannot afford. My 16 year old asked me, Can we afford this? I would like this. Can we afford it? And I tell her honestly, yes or no, or let's see if we can next month or in a couple of months. So she asked me and she understands. They both understand the value of money and the. Value of work. Right. And I think that's the key. Understanding the value of the dollar and what it takes to get the stuff you want. I mean, I have found helping your children really early get learn to work. I mean, my children all started working. I mean, at like 11. I mean, whether it was yard work in the neighborhood, whether they were a babysitter, I mean, camp counselor, you know, those little they all have worked really early and it has helped all of them truly understand, you know, how many hours it takes to get a certain thing.

Elise Buie (00:25:37) - And for a child, I think that is critical to be able to put like fundamentally, oh, I'm going to need to work six hours to get this, you know, video game I want or whatever it is, you know, And that really puts some perspective, I think, for them on just everything. I mean, even at groceries, you know, just understanding that you go to the grocery store and you drop $300, I mean, figure out how much that would have taken you to pay for it on your wage. And that just helps them to understand all around, I think. Yes. And if we extrapolate that and go back to the the woman who is the stay at home mom, the other part of that is that they give up their their rights or their benefit or whatever you want to call it. They give up on the financial part. Okay. You want to be a stay at home mom. Great. But don't give up that right to know how much money is coming in, how much money is going out, how much money you are spending on food, on clothes, on, how much is the mortgage, how much is in the bank, How many bank accounts does do each of you have? And I don't I can't tell you how many women I have.

Elise Buie (00:26:52) - I am divorcing. I'm representing a divorce. They don't know how many accounts they have. They don't know how many how much money is on a retirement account, how many retirement accounts there are, how many credit cards. Their their name is not even on title to the properties or property that they have. Why not? I don't know. He told me. I couldn't you know, it wasn't my money. You give up that, right? You know, in California, whatever gets accumulated assets or dates from date of marriage, the date of separation, our community property, you know, he puts everything in his name. She's given an allowance. But yet you don't know how much is coming in, how much is going out. You just signed the tax returns without reading them. You still can't do that. You should do that. You should know how much is coming in and going out. Honestly, I will tell you, after I got divorced, I was in financial ruin. I have had to bring myself out even here as a family, you know, as a family law attorney, I'll be honest and I'll tell you that.

Elise Buie (00:27:56) - Absolutely. Oh, I, too, had to do the same thing. I mean, it was definitely a process and it's an ongoing process. I mean, I stayed at home for a decade, and that was probably I mean, from a financial standpoint, worst decision I made financially for sure. I mean, for me that time with my children, I wouldn't give it up for the universe. I loved it. My kids loved it. You know, we had a great time. It's created bonds that, you know, are pretty amazing. But, I mean, there are repercussions for that, you know? And I think, you know, I surely didn't understand them going into it. You know, I was super young and just, you know, what do you know at 23, 24, You know, you just you just don't have the same insight. And so, yeah, it is it is a really hard thing to watch. So many stay at home moms, you know, come into the law office of a divorce attorney and really get some of the the real realistic views on what their finances are going to look like and what they do look like.

Elise Buie (00:29:00) - And it can be pretty daunting. Well, and then to having to tell them that they have to go out in the workforce and they're like, but my skills are rusty and I'm I understand that. But you're going to have to go work and be anxiety. And the a lot of things that come up is like, you mean you want me to go work at $10 an hour or $15 an hour at my age? You have to start somewhere, right? And it's difficult and and it's extremely daunting, but you're going to have to start there. And then the saddest part that I see is the divorced mom who is fighting every single month waiting for that check to come in. And the check comes in on the fifth. On the 10th. On the 15th or and you're just waiting for that check. And I could not I could not do that as somebody who did it for a couple of years. I mean, and realize at some point I was like, oh, there is no way I'm going to live like this.

Elise Buie (00:29:59) - I just thought, this is never going to be the way this is going to work out. And I literally just said, I'm going to figure out how to earn circles around my ex so that, you know, I just I don't even care what he pays. Doesn't pay. You know, I just I was so determined to not be waiting for a check and not be a victim of this. This whole thing further past my divorce. I'm like, you know, I need to be able to move on from this. And for me, that was definitely making some very fundamental changes. I mean, a lot of personal development, but really figuring out how could I become 100% self-sufficient without, you know, his involvement. Exactly. And it's not I'm not talking about, you know, you become a man hater. It's not that. It's just standing on your own two feet and you become self sufficient. And it isn't that you later on, you don't have a partner. It's just you become self-sufficient.

Elise Buie (00:30:58) - You support yourself and abundance comes in. Yeah, it's kind of amazing how that works. It does? Yeah. Yeah. You let go of the bitterness and the abundance comes in. Oh, I wish somehow you and I could, like, make people understand that she started. Oh, my gosh. It's. I think that is one of the biggest things. Divorce thing people have to overcome is overcoming that bitterness. And that feeling of this person owes me something or I gave up X, Y and Z, you know, but being able to get rid of that victim mentality and really cease the benefits and see like their new life ahead of them as such a transformative opportunity rather than this tragedy. Oh, I totally agree with you. I was with the father of my children for 30 years. We met when we were both 21. You know, people. Do you regret it? I don't. I have two beautiful children because of it. I learned a lot. A lot. And that's how I see it.

Elise Buie (00:32:02) - It's taken me a number of years to grow from it. Therapy also works, and that's the I recommend that to people therapy. But and that's if you see it as a growing experience and this is not fake positivity. It's a it's been a growing experience for me and I've seen it. And it takes two people for the relationship to to, you know, grow apart. But I and this is the best part, the best time of my life to. Yeah. My daughter see it. I love that. That's so amazing. I mean I think you just hit the nail on the head, though. The biggest one your children are watching. I mean, in talking to divorcing parents, you know, all the time about reminding them about what are you modeling? I mean, are you modeling the ability to learn from your your situation, to have a growth mindset, to be a creative problem solver? Or are you modeling this victim mentality where nothing is your fault? Everything is, you know, the people outside the window's fault and you can't control anything.

Elise Buie (00:33:12) - It's just like one bad thing after another after another. And it's like, Oh, come on, what are we trying to teach the next generation? You know? Exactly. Bad things happen to everyone. Learn from it. So why did this happen? Or it just happens. I mean, have you ever had a bad experience that you have not been able to learn something from me? No, Never. No. Think that's possible? Like just turn that mirror on yourself for just a brief period and you will find some area that you can improve. And people. Yeah, powerful. And that's what I've done since my divorce. I looked back and I said, okay, back in whatever year. Oh yeah, there we go. Oh, my gosh. Well, I just love that. I love talking to you. It has been such a joy to have you on the podcast. I mean, your attitude and your way of looking at things, we just could bring so much more of that into the world.

Elise Buie (00:34:14) - We should try and figure out how to do it because I've been wanting to figure out a way to educate women, young women, to, like you said, if they had the education. Okay, you want to be a stay at home mom, do it, but do it with education. Right? Do it right. There has to be a way that you could be at stay at home mom, but yet still not lose bad financial security. I mean, at least here in our state, in Washington, I mean, there's a lot that can be done with prenups, post ups, you know, in setting up a situation. So if something does go awry, you know, you are protected and you are you know, things are put in place so that it's not this just horror when all of a sudden you're like. Oh, so my husband's been cheating on me for five years, and now, you know, I need a divorce, and I haven't worked. And I mean, yeah, there's so much education and empowerment that needs to happen.

Elise Buie (00:35:11) - I mean, it is. It's a huge, huge missing piece. I think. I think it's a struggle because I think you said it so well yourself how you wanted to be a stay at home mom, but you also were put in a situation where you couldn't at the time you had to step in. And I think so many women, you know, they don't have that happen right away at the beginning. So they do become a stay at home mom. It is something a lot of people want to do. I mean, being a mom is exhausting. Like it's Yes, you know, it's a lot. And I think that a lot of women see it as a way to really, you know, be a great mom, a great wife, you know, and they see it as a very positive thing. And I think it's hard to look at the future and really ponder the potential, what ifs. Exactly. It is. One great example I've seen is my niece, her husband, who was in the Marines, and they he just retired recently, but they went from state to state, you know, every few years they were in a different state.

Elise Buie (00:36:11) - What she ended up doing, because she had 4 or 5 kids, I think she ended up having her own business. And it started out, you know, just making these little bows for for girls that did cheer and gymnastics and all of that. That's how she started making pocket money. And so now she does the pop ups. She does it at the flea markets. So it's something like that. So she still made some money. She and she whenever she was still at home, but she made money and then she started selling it online. So there are things that can be done. She's very creative and she started doing that and it grew from there. Absolutely. Oh, there's so much that can happen now. I mean, with online social media marketing and now with remote work too. I mean, when I see these things where some, you know, law firm owners in particular are forcing people back to their office, you know, like you must come back to the office, I'm thinking you probably get to lose some of those moms that you have in your office who really appreciate, you know, the flexibility of being able to throw a load of laundry in in the middle of the day or, you know, throw some dinner in a crock pot and, you know, be able to get their work done around all of their other things.

Elise Buie (00:37:30) - Yeah, exactly. Know my assistant. We've been remote since Covid and we're going to continue being remote because it works for both of us. Actually, we have been able to get more work done remote than being in the office. Absolutely. Because of the drive time. Completely. Oh, I mean, the thought of ever commuting again, I'm like, oh, no way. Oh, no way. Well, I really appreciate it and hope you have a wonderful rest of your Monday and rest of your week. And you and I will definitely have to connect on this because figuring out how to help more women in this area is obviously the thing that keeps us both up at night. Yes, let's connect again. Send me an email, call me. I would love to do something else with you. That is one of the things that for me, I want to educate women about because it's sometimes it does wake me up at night. It's like, Oh yeah, we've been doing this. Well, now tell our listeners, where can people find you? What is the best way to get in touch with you? Or if somebody you know needs your services, they can look at my website, law firm or my phone number.

Elise Buie (00:38:35) - (650) 261-9791. My direct email is flora at law firm.com. Okay perfect. And we will get all that contact information in the show notes as well. It was a pleasure talking with you. I love to chat other one. Have a wonderful day, a wonderful week and I look forward to doing another one with you. Yeah, you as well and enjoy and tell your your mom I said hi. I just love grandmas. Grandmas are the best. I will. I will. Enjoy your day. Thanks, Laura. Thank you. Bye bye.

Speaker 1 (00:39:10) - Thanks for listening to the Maximum Mom podcast. A production of Maximum Lawyer Media. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Leah Miller. Leah was a litigation paralegal for 13 years, 10 of those years she was a Florida Registered Paralegal. Leah has her MBA from Florida Gulf Coast University in Estero, Florida.

Until just recently Leah was the firm administrator and CFO for a personal injury law firm in SW Florida. She has started her own business LNM Financial Services to broaden her reach and use her knowledge to help other law firms understand their financials.

Leah’s ultimate goal is to educate law firm owners on how they can make financial choices to grow their firms in the future. Using tools like budgets, KPIs and cash flow projections, firm owners can make financial choices that work for them.

Episode Highlights:

02:10 Meet Leah and her story of becoming an entrepreneur

06:20 How working for herself has allowed Leah to be more present for her children

11:56 The importance of understanding finances for law firm owners and the services provided to help them manage their finances effectively

21:17 Regularly reviewing expenses and ensuring that they are necessary and utilized efficiently

22:19 Cutting expenses without compromising efficiency

Connect with Leah:

🎧Listen to the podcast here.
🎧Subscribe to our channel so you never miss an interview, presentation or training here!
🎧 Sign up for the Maximum Mom newsletter here.

Resources:

Transcript: Understanding Your Finances to Help Your Firm Thrive with Leah Miller

(00:00:01) – Welcome to Maximum Mom with a least boy, where you’ll hear from women who are navigating the same messy journey as you lawyering, entrepreneurship and mothering. What a trifecta. We’re here to share tips, resources, wins, losses and encouragement for moms who are raising a family while building a law firm so you feel less alone in your journey toward a fulfilling career and being the best mom you can be. Welcome to the Maximum Mom podcast. This is Elise Bui and I am here with Leah Miller. Leah, thanks so much for joining me. I’m so excited to talk to you today. Oh, I am thrilled to have you on. And now that I just learned your very exciting news that you are on your own doing your business, that makes me so excited. We couldn’t have done this at a better time, which I just think it’s so fun. Yes, I’m so excited. It’s been a lot of change, but it’s so good. Well, first, tell us, what do you do? I mean, I won’t even go back into a lot of your past history right now because we’ll have a lot to talk about.

(00:01:06) – Tell us what you’re doing right now, what your business is and what you’re doing. So I have started financial services and I do fractional CFO services and bookkeeping services for small businesses focusing on law firms, because that’s my past and that’s what I know best. And so my big goal in all of this in is helping business owners really focus on their financials and go beyond the taxes because you have a CPA, CPAs are so important. They help you pay your taxes. That is like so, so important that I get it. But there’s so much more beyond what there is just to pay your taxes and really having a deep understanding of the financials and where that can get you with goal setting and moving forward with your business growing and really doing all the things with that. So that’s why I’m helping small business owners do well. It just makes me so happy and so happy that you’ve decided to go out on your own. Tell us, when did you go out on your own? So I just went out on my own.

(00:02:10) – I started my business about six months ago while working my full time job, and things started moving quicker than I originally anticipated, which was exciting. And so my last day at my previous job was May 6th. And so I am a little bit more than a month into full time working for myself, which is been it’s up and down all day, every day, but in a good way. It’s amazing. Well, I love talking to new entrepreneurs because I just think the entrepreneurial path is such a fascinating journey to be on. Well, let’s back up a little bit First, let’s go back and tell us who is in your home. Like, you know, our podcast, the Maximum. We always like to tell who’s in our home, who makes you mom? What is your family look like? So I am married to my husband, Robert. We’ve been married. We actually just celebrated our 11th anniversary last week on the third. And then we have three daughters. I have Sophia, who’s eight.

(00:03:16) – She’ll be nine in August, Savannah who is six, and Charlotte who is three. My baby will be four in October. So we are just moving past that baby stage. I feel like it’s sad because I love babies, but at the same time we are moving into this new world where like, I can leave my house with just my purse and not like all the things and we can leave for hours at a time and not have to worry about like diapers and naps and just everything. So we are moving into a different time and it’s fun and it’s been good. It is so funny you mention that. I love the different seasons of motherhood and I mean, you are in such a fun season, you know, getting out of that baby. And I have to tell you, obviously Doug and I are in that total empty nester. We have six and they’re all out of the house. And we just flew back from Alaska yesterday and we were at the airport watching this young couple. And I mean, they were baby faced, young couple like mean.

(00:04:23) – I don’t think these people were 25 and they had these two itty bitty kids. One was ten weeks old and one was probably about two. And the amount of accouterments that they had and traveling it literally, he looked like a pack animal. The daddy had this massive car seat that he was carrying on his back and then he had something on his front. And then he was carrying all this stuff. And I mean, and the mom had the baby, you know, strapped on with a baby Bjorn in the front, the backpack in the back, the fanny pack. I mean, and I was just like I looked at them and I was like, oh, my. Gosh, I remember that, but barely. And it literally I was just like, it’s so crazy. All the stuff you have to bring to keep up with your little bitty kids. And it changes so fast because we’re actually leaving tomorrow morning to go to the beach for vacation in North Florida. And I haven’t even started packing yet.

(00:05:19) – And like, there’s not a whole lot I need just closed and things like that. Whereas like 2 or 3 years ago it was like, do I have the pack in play? Do I have the bottles, do I have this? Do I that? And now it’s there. So it’s just it’s getting easy in some ways where it’s getting hard totally the other way, which is, you know why it’s good that I’m working for myself now? Because the hard way, like it’s good that I’m around more for them in certain ways. Absolutely. And that was something we mentioned before we got on. And I think it’s important to touch on. You talked about how you started working for yourself at the beginning of May and how you spent many days volunteering at your children’s school since then and how that’s been really impactful to remind you of why you are doing this on your own. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so I my background was from administrator and CFO of a law firm for ten years as a paralegal.

(00:06:20) – I loved it. I love the legal community. I love the law firm. I had amazing bosses. They were super flexible with me. But our office was it used to be 30 minutes away. And then after the hurricane that hit in September, we had to move our office. And so the office was an hour away. And because I was a firm administrator, I had to be there. And even no matter how flexible they were, I was managing people. I was managing money. I had to be in the office. And so there was just times where I could not, you know, go to the school at the drop of a hat because, you know, I couldn’t go to work for 30 minutes, drive an hour back to the school, go to, you know, go back to work. And so while I was able to do a lot, it wasn’t what I can do now where I’m ten minutes from the school. And so the last week of school was last week.

(00:07:05) – And, you know, the teachers needed help with certain things. And I was at the school almost every single day for 30 minutes, an hour here and there. And so the you know, the girls really they loved having me there. And it was really eye opening of this is what I’m working so hard for. And I love that. You know, every day they were able to stop going to aftercare for the last 3 or 4 weeks of school. So they rode the bus home every single day. And so I’m able to work until 315 when I have to go get them from the bus. And then my day is pretty much done until they go to bed. And then I love especially like the number crunching part when I’m really analyzing numbers. I love staying up till 11, 12:00 at night sometimes when I’m really getting into it and I don’t mind working like that because then I get that 3:00 to 830, 9:00 and we’re not rushing like we were before when I had an hour drive home.

(00:08:02) – And you know, I mentioned them getting older and we’re getting to a time where we’ve got gymnastics and dance and soccer and, you know, and my husband is hearing he helps us as much as he can, but he has a job. And so it got to be a lot trying to get them to all their things. And I never wanted to tell them no because I want them to do all the things. Yeah. And so now working for myself and I never thought I would be an entrepreneur, you know, I love business, I love I loved running a business. And so I never really knew what I would do in this kind of just happened and kind of, you know, because of what I was doing, it just kind of happened and I’m like, This is what I was meant to do. Like, once I started doing it, I’m like, This is it. This is what I’ve been working towards. This is what I’ve been wondering. Like, what do I want to do? This is it.

(00:08:50) – And so it’s changed our family for sure. Yeah. I mean, it’s huge. I just I mean, I can’t tell you how excited I am for you, but and I mean, as a mom of many, you know, mine are older now, though. But I mean that 3 to 9 p.m. time, that was my golden time. And I mean, that sounds silly, but those are six solid hours a day that you get to spend with your family. And those are busy time like you’re going activities, getting dinner ready, helping with homework, getting them ready for school tomorrow, like all those things. And to not have that crunch of being at work still. I mean, I don’t know how anybody does it when they’re like chained to their desk till 6:00. And I’m like, How do you get everything done? One affects the way that you act towards your kids also because you just are so stressed out and you’re, you know, in a hurry and so you’re just not able to take that time to really, you know, talk to them and listen to them.

(00:09:48) – And my oldest, she’s only eight, but I feel like kids are growing up so fast now and there’s so much that we have to talk about. But they like, you know, different issues in school and. I mean, it’s crazy. The girls in third grade are just something else. And so I love that I’m going to be able to be there for them when they get off the bus to have those conversations. And they’re you know, they’re not in the aftercare talking to who knows, you know, knows what and all of that. So. Well, exactly. I mean, and I found those conversations, too, when you can be the one driving your child to activities are the best times when you’re in the car. I mean, I used to drive my children. I mean, the craziest routes because, you know, they would start some conversation. And, you know, my youngest three were boys. And you know how, boy, you might not know. Boys don’t always want to be so vocal.

(00:10:41) – So do start talking. You really have to give them that time and not shut them down. So I’d be driving like all over Seattle, you know, I’m like, Oh, there’s a detour. It’s the craziest times when they’re finally like, Hey, mom, what is this mean? Somebody said this in school, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I don’t even know how to explain this, But like, here it goes. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it is adventure. Yes.

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(00:11:56) – Tell us a little bit about I mean, I really want to talk about the services you provide because I think for so many law firm owners, especially people who are early in their entrepreneurial journey, who they might just have a bookkeeper and a CPA. So they’re thinking they’re bookkeepers running their numbers, you know, and they give it all to the CPA kind of at the end of the year. And now I’m speaking from experience. This is what I used to do. My bookkeeper would just give the numbers to the CPA. They do the taxes, and that was the extent of my knowledge of our firm’s finances. And over the years, I mean, I’ve become kind of psychotic about it, like, whereas now, you know, I do like these 13 month rolling forecasts and I, you know, track everything.

(00:12:47) – And I played mind games like if I’m more than 2% off in my forecast, I’m like traumatized, like, my gosh, what did I do wrong? And so but I mean, I know that, you know, that’s a big extreme, you know, from the just having the bookkeeper to really understanding your numbers and really being able to dig in to figure out what levers to pull to do things. Tell us about your services and how did they come into play in that spectrum? Well, so first, I’ve been finding that a lot of lawyers, when they’re first starting out, obviously they want to save money. And I get that, especially as somebody just starting out. And so they’re trying to even do the bookkeeping themselves. And it’s a cost that you really have to build into your budget to outsource it. And it can be done at a reasonable cost because you just don’t have the time to do it the right way. And you know, right now there’s this big thing about how artificial intelligence is taking over because you can link your QuickBooks to your bank account and it brings everything in it.

(00:13:52) – Auto categorize it all and it doesn’t at all. I’m here to tell you it does not work that great at all. And so that’s step one, is making sure that you’re not trying to do it yourself because you’re a lawyer. You are so good at what you do. You’re, you know, whatever area of law you’re in, that’s what you’re there to do. So that’s step one is making sure you’re not trying to do it yourself, that you’re not trying to do it at the end of the year. QuickBooks is not a very expensive product when it’s all said and done, and so don’t try to do it with an Excel spreadsheet or anything like that. Like you really you need to invest in that so that you know that you have a good firm foundation and that, you know, talking about taxes, you can lose money or you can get in trouble or even your trust accounting, you know, that’s a whole nother story. And I know people don’t keep that all the way it’s supposed to be.

(00:14:44) – So like really invest in the firm foundation for your operations and for your trust accounting. And then the next level and what you asked about hiring somebody like me is that’s when we get into looking at first your income and your cash. Well, because most areas of law there’s it’s an up and down. I worked in personal injury for a long time and so there was a huge up and down with that. You couldn’t go out and, you know, like I work with landscapers. You can’t go out and just say, I’m going to mow 15 yards today because I need to pay the bills next week. You know, you can’t you can’t just like go out and hustle a little bit harder to get that money to come in. Some areas of law may be a little bit, but there’s an ebb and flow to it. You have to see your case through. And so you really need to keep track of that income and your cash flow and what’s coming in so that when you are in the highs, you’re ready for the lows.

(00:15:37) – And so just looking at what’s in the bank account today really isn’t going to help you in the future. And I feel like a lot of people that are just starting out, that’s what they do. They’re like, Oh, there’s money in the bank. I’m going to take that because I need it for myself personally. And that you really long term, that’s not going to help you with any growth. And then looking at your expenses and just making sure that we’re not, you know, using money, that we’re coming in, we’re using it wisely because there is a lot of technology out there where it all looks great and you can literally buy like 15, 20 pieces of technology to do all this different stuff and then not use any of it. And it’s like, oh, it’s only 15, $20 a month here, 15, $20 a month there. But you really want to make sure that it’s working for you. And so that’s where we start, is the income is the income coming in, where is it coming in? And then expenses.

(00:16:27) – And then we need to look at are we hiring people? Are we ready to hire people, you know, getting a paralegal and to help you? How much is that going to cost? Paralegals aren’t cheap. Good paralegals aren’t cheap. And so can I afford that? What do I need to do to bring in more income so that I can afford that really good at paralegal, you know, And then we can look at kind of set goals for that paralegal of what they’re going to do so that we can continue to afford that paralegal. You know, those are some of the things we can look at there and then we can build on that and continue to set goals of where do we want to go from here? Is your goal only to be and I have clients who they’re like, I don’t want to grow, I just want it to be me, my really good paralegal. I don’t want to manage people. That’s great. So you know, what we can look at next is what services are you providing and what are which services are more profitable for you.

(00:17:18) – So, you know, your family law attorney, you provide five different services. If the one over here is profitable and that’s bringing you the most money that maybe we need to talk about not doing these services over here so that you’re more efficient with these ones so that you and your paralegal, you know, maybe you don’t want to work 80 hours a week. You only want to work 40 hours a week, but you want to make the same amount of money so we can look at services and see what’s profitable, what’s not and things like that. So that’s kind of like the high level of the different goals and budgeting we can do so that you really know what how your money is working for you. And then if growth is your goal, then what do we need to do so that we can add on this? Another attorney. So, you know, we’re either in a growth phase where we’re growing in so many ways a little bit tighter because we’re trying to build up to that, you know, or we’re just kind of tweaking things and, you know, going along the way that we like it.

(00:18:13) – So. Right. That’s fascinating because I think the finances, I mean, are such a huge part of the mix in so many of us lawyers. We joke, you know, we went to law school because we didn’t have to do math. And I mean, we kind of kid ourselves if we think we don’t have to do math, but having somebody like you on the team is the key then, because you’re going to be preparing monthly reports, things like this, like you mentioned, the cash flow and, you know, the income analysis. Looking at the expenses, do you do budgeting Typekit kind that’s where I start is like looking at a budget. Where are we now? Look at last year and that’s kind of how I try to start it. Let’s look at last year. What was our income last year? And then you know, maybe we can try to we want to bump that up ten, 20%, whatever it is. And let’s look at our expenses last year. And so we’ll start with a budget and then we’ll set some goals and we’ll say, you know, these are our goals for next month for our income and then these are our goals for our expenses.

(00:19:16) – And there’s a difference. You know, some expenses are set expenses. You’re right. You’re, you know, things like that. Those are set. You can’t change those. Sometimes you have to put money out for your cases. Like in personal injury, you put a lot of money out for case costs and those are variable as well. But we want to make sure we’re recouping those, you know, in the end. And then there’s also variable expenses that maybe we can cut down on some stuff. And so then once we get those set, then we’ll set our goals. Ah, I like to set KPIs, key performance indicators, and so let’s see how that, you know, people are performing different services or performing things like that. And then we can meet monthly or quarterly and go over those goals and see where we are and what changes we can make. On those. So, you know, if we’re not bringing in the income that we wanted to bring in, our goal was what can I do to change that? Do we need to do some more marketing? Do we need to tweak our marketing? Do we need to get out there and talk to some people? You know, what do we need to do to bring our income in if we have cases that are pending? Do we need to you know, in the case of personal injury, you don’t get paid till the case is done.

(00:20:24) – Is there something that we need to do in our process with our employees to make sure those cases are actually being settled or coming to fruition? Because we can’t have a case sitting out for two years, especially if we’re putting the costs out, if we’re not bringing them to fruition and actually getting paid on those. So it’s all fine and great that we have all of these cases. But if we’re not ever getting paid or if we have money sitting in the trust account that we’re never billing against, you know, then that’s an income issue, you know? And so then we can also look at our employees and are they performing the way they need to perform or are employees billing? Are we billing by the hour? What are they doing even if we’re not billing by the hour? Do we need to look at what our employees are? You know, do they need to keep track of their hourly so that we know what they’re doing? And do we need to have them do a little bit more? Do they need to do a little bit less because there is a balance there that we need to keep.

(00:21:17) – With work life balance with employees as well to keep good employees? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it’s interesting when you mention expenses and I mean, it’s funny, you know, we all talk about the shiny object syndrome, like things and we’re like, Oh, we’ll just have this $20 thing, this 39, 99, this, those things really add up. And I have found that calling my expenses quarterly has been a really powerful exercise to just see what has gotten on there. And I find, you know, as our team has gotten larger, sometimes things are getting on there that I don’t even know what it is, you know, And I’ll look at it. I’m like, What is this? And what are we paying for? You know? And maybe it’s something I need to know. Maybe it’s not really something I need to know, but I do like to know where the money is going. And so, you know, I find actually looking at expenses and people think it’s such a small amount, you know, but it’s surprising to me how much it can really add up if you don’t look at your expenses.

(00:22:19) – And I think, at least for us, was a great opportunity to really embrace this whole idea of expenses, you know, because we were all remote people are in all these different places, remote. And so it made us really look at things. So I love that idea of really looking at your expenses and making sure about what you’re doing and that you’re utilizing your software and the shiny objects you do have to the fullest. Yeah. And I also find the firm I was at was an older firm that had been around for a long time. And so there was a lot of things where it was like, Oh, that’s just the way we’ve always done it. It’s like, But there’s a way that we can do it and save money and do it more efficiently because we don’t want to cut expenses so much that we lose, you know, our efficiency and our what we’re good at. We still there’s a high level that we want to keep here, but there’s ways that we can do things differently and we can cut those expenses.

(00:23:15) – And I always think about it, you know, if you cut the expenses in, your profit is higher, then that benefits everybody. Exactly. And so I think, you know, there’s I’ve always kind of tried to talk to employees, you know, and there’s a fine line there of talking to employees about finances, but encouraging them like, hey, if we don’t like waste all this money, then there’s, you know, more profit there, there’s more money to go around and things like that that I would rather, you know, get a better bonus or a salary or something like that than waste all this paper when we don’t need to be printing something. We’re printing all day, encouraging the whole office to be aware of those things I think is a good thing as well, because then everybody is aware of what the expenses are and so everybody is on the same team when it comes to using our money wisely in the firm, because we at the end of the day, we’re all working really hard to bring in that money.

(00:24:11) – It’s not easy. And so let’s use it like in a good way, completely. Oh yeah. I think creating efficiencies and being as efficient as possible makes the most sense and getting the money back into the hands of the people who are doing the work makes the most sense to rather than, you know, paying a vendor too much or, you know, for something that you don’t even need. Well, the other thing that I have found really interesting through the years, and I’m sure you have as well as somebody who worked as an administrator, is negotiating a lot of these expenses. Like I think sometimes people have an idea that such and such is a fixed expense. And I’m like, It’s only fixed because you’re not negotiating it. Like, I would do that all the time. I’d be like, Why am I going to sign a. Five year contract for that when you want my business. So let’s talk about what I need, you know, especially when you’re talking about like Westlaw and Nexis and things like that, that those expenses can get astronomical.

(00:25:13) – When you can go back and look at them and you can negotiate some of that stuff. And so you’re not spending as much. And I think that’s where I really am helpful to my clients, is that I’ve been in it and I’ve done it. And so I don’t just know the numbers part of it. I have no desire to do stuff ever again, but I know it. And so I know how employees think and I know how to work with employees and how they tick and how to get, you know, I really prided myself in training up my employees and having really good employees that worked under me. And so I know that part of it as well as the financial part of it. And so I could kind of like, you know, marry those two together and help because it really does go together. And so having somebody that’s just spitting numbers at you when they don’t know how the office works is a little bit different because I know how an office works and and there’s a lot of dynamics that come into play.

(00:26:17) – That’s an understatement and such a nice word to dynamics. And I was always very aware of that because, you know, and I know you’re being on work life balance and having a great place to work and and that was always, you know, big on my radar is we want to have a great place to work. And so, again, we don’t want to cut expenses to the point where, like we’re not giving our employees coffee in the morning. But is there a better way to do it so that we’re not wasting money? It is a real process. Well, I really appreciate your time. Tell us, how can people get in touch with you so they could learn about your business? You know, do a discovery call with you so they can figure out how you could best help them. So my website is l n m financial. I also have Instagram. I’ve been having a lot of fun doing that. It’s financial. And then I also have Facebook Element and Financial services and you can always email me at M Financial and do a free 30 minute consultation on Zoom and then I can let you know how I can help you.

(00:27:25) – And I just I love talking business with people, especially in the legal community. And so I will talk to anybody anytime. Well, I really appreciate and we will make sure to get all your links and everything hooked with the show notes. And I really appreciate your time today and I’m so excited for your first vacation as an entrepreneur. Thank you so much. Appreciate you. And thank you for having me on. Okay. Thanks, Leah.

The post Understanding Your Finances to Help Your Firm Thrive with Leah Miller appeared first on Maximum Lawyer.

This week on Maximum Mom, your host Elise Buie is joined by Christine Diorio. Christine is a survivor! After losing her brother to a drug overdose when she was 23, she married her first husband less than a year later. They were both alcoholics, and yet somehow she managed to go to law school and have 2 kids while they were there. After she started work as prosecutor, Christine and her husband went through a very nasty divorce which culminated in her own (and very public!) arrest for DUI and she was forced to resign.

Fast forward 13 years later – Christine is sober, in her second marriage with a beautiful blended family, and despite spending the first 5 years after her divorce in and out of court with her ex-husband, today he is also sober and they have a solid and friendly co-parenting relationship. After Christine’s DUI, she became a public defender. As she worked on her own sobriety – advocating for other addicts in jail was deeply fulfilling but also left her burnt out, so when she became pregnant with her youngest daughter, she went on maternity leave and took a much needed break from the law.

When Christine’s daughter entered kindergarten, she knew it was time to return to work but she still wanted the flexibility to be home with her 3 kids. So, the Law Office of Christine Diorio was born smack dab in the middle of the pandemic! I practice primarily family law (mostly divorce) and some criminal defense (mostly DUI’s). She truly feels called to help others through the things she has had to overcome, to hopefully inspire them and provide some light and hope.

Christine’s tagline is “where justice has a heart” because she believes the justice system needs more compassion. She just celebrated 2 years since opening her firms doors in Tampa, Florida. She has 3 staff members and they are totally virtual. They are growing by leaps and bounds and Chirstine believes it is because of the compassion she brings along with the focus to help her clients stay out of court wherever possible. She believes nothing about the divorce process should become so nasty, that you are unable to be co-parents when it is over, and too many attorneys contribute to this dynamic! By being open with her clients about her own journey, Christine is able to meet them where they are.

Episode Highlights:

02:14 Christine’s story of resilience and grit, sharing her personal and professional journey. Including her struggles with substance abuse, divorce, and career changes.

11:31 Starting a virtual law firm

16:41 Importance of peace in divorce, for the sake of the children and one’s own well-being

21:48 Collaborative law and the challenges of its high cost

27:36 Hiring and empowering a team and the importance of prioritizing family

36:18 Resilience in challenges of law practice and overcoming them

49:14 Parental alienation and family law system

54:05 Substance abuse in law school

Connect with Christine:

📹 Watch the interview here.

Resources:

The post The Power of Resilience with Christine Diorio appeared first on Maximum Lawyer.

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