In this episode, Jim & Tyson approach how to build an audience; the pure value of a big audience and the different models. Dive in as they talk about how consistency and taking one step at a time can help make a bigger audience, and the importance of adding value and content information to the group.
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Building an audience
- Jim >
- A large audience solves problems
- Listeners should spend more time building an audience
- Different ways to build an audience
- Tyson >
- Different audiences
- Ex: John Fisher/Lawyers are his audience
- Potential referral partners
- Jim >
- Audience potential consumers
- Through internet and videos
- Focus on different audience and different ways to build an audience
- Ex: Mitch Jackson/Social Media type/Person who’s growing his brand/Speaking at lawyer conferences/Building audience in different ways
- Pure value of a large audience
- Finding people who want what you have
- Spend time simplifying search and message
- “There are enough people in the world who need what you have to make a nice life for yourself”
- “What you have”?
- Ex. Dean Jackson/ Talks about people who need a new roof
- Roofer/Identifying people who need a new roof and different ways to do it/Spend more time speaking to them and business them as an audience
- “Find who are the people that might be business for me”
- Ex: Hanging out with international student advisors/Figuring out different ways to market international students/Market to the international student advisors/Built audience on Facebook/Talk about immigration
Tyson’s secret thoughts
- Guru of referral partners comes solo small primitive offence firms
- Primitive offence lawyers not making enough money/Taking cases down
- Public offender list/List of solo and small firm primitive offence lawyers
- Overflow in public offences cases referred to people on list
- Target people/no advertising
- Successful getting referrals
- Target > “What can you provide to those people that they are looking for?”/A boost in income/Find way to target them
- Jim > Being hyper targeted
- Build one little audience/Being deliberate
- Ex. John Fisher/medical malpractice cases
- Mentoring > Lawyers getting cases from other lawyers
- Case MaxLawyers
- Jim >
- Trajectory in an organic way built audience
- Audience growth/Conferences growth/Downloads on facebook and podcast
- Last two years > Natural projection of what audience growth leads to
- Facebook/Long productive beneficial threads/Monitoring/Leads more people to listen to episodes > 700-800 episode download
- Tyson >
- Targeted podcast
- Jim, Tyson and a microphone, talking
- Facebook group
- Starting newsletter
- Doing one thing at a time/Step by step
Building an audience can be overwhelming
- Jim >
- “What will people find in me interesting?”
- Doing leg work/Consistent content creation so people come back
- Making it interesting
- Key to all is to start
- Tyson >
- Newsletter/Never missed on podcast
- Experiment/When find something that works keep doing it consistently
Have an audience
People getting in front of audience in different ways
- Tyson >
- About getting group together/Sharing ideas
- Some people taking advantage/others provide value
- Marketing companies in group provide value/Jim and Tyson know who are the ones that don’t
- Jim >
- Contrast of two possible scenarios:
- 1) Member of group/Immigration lawyer/ CLE about legal marketing and running your practice/Never participated/Pitch conference in group/Negative answer from Jim > “Nobody knows who you are and you have never participated”
- 2)Member of group William Eadie/Course with pillar contents for website and how seo games are nothing more but games/Tech lawyers how to do this/Positive answer from Jim > Given great content information/Great participant/Great advocate/
- Don’t waste money, time and resources
- Tyson >
- “Ones that don’t contribute and just take”
- Give best ideas and value to everyone’s lives
Listener > “How do I build an audience?”
- Tyson >
- Come up with a list
- List the message
- Communicate with them/Through social media/Via podcast
- Jim >
- Big audiences
- Through podcast and youtube
- Podcast/Consistency/Somebody in the back making episodes come out
- People listening at any time
- Being regularly connected to people in video or audio format
- Being in people’s ears/”No substitute for people’s true identities come through when talking week after week”
- People know MaxLaw very well
- “Not being connected will leave you far behind”
- Tyson >
- Getting to know him through youtube or podcast
- Daily facebook videos
- Don’t want youtube or podcast go back to basic list and target it
- Advantage being in people’s ears
- Make a podcast is easy/Consistency is what is difficult
- Love to talk about things that I’m passionate about
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Jim’s hack: Vertellis – Card game/Small conversations about things that have happened in the past > Helps people connect in another level
Tyson’s tip: Scales by Jeff Hoffman and David Finkel – mauimasterimnd.com > financial tools for running a business/Free newsletter
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Transcript: Building an Audience with Jim & Tyson
I want to step back for a minute and just talk about the pure value of having a larger audience. Because if you are standing out in the woods yelling, hey, hire me, you know, that’s not going to bring you to many people. But if you can find the people who want what you have, and spend your time amplifying that and amplifying your message, there are enough people in the world who need what you have to make a very, very nice life for yourself.
Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast via podcast your hosts, Jim hacking and Tyson nutrix. Let’s partner up and maximize your firm.
Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer Podcast. I’m Jim hacking.
And tasty music’s What’s up Jimmy will Tyson my
friend, you know that the early bird registration is ending this week. So we wanted to lead off the show by reminding everyone that the price goes up and it will not go down. So everyone needs to make sure that they go ahead and sign up. If they’re thinking about coming, no reason to spend money later, extra money later. So I encourage everyone who’s listening, if you haven’t registered, you should do so we’re already over 100 people coming, which is 30 more than we had last year, now we have a bigger space. But I think we’re going to be pretty close to capacity by the time things shape up.
Yeah, it’s not a small increase in price. I don’t think I think we’re I think 499 Tell me if I’m wrong, it’s either 459 or 499 when it goes up to so that’s the final price. So get it in now get the get the early bird pricing. Because otherwise, it’s a pretty steep increase. So it’s I mean, we’re gonna get to 150 I think easily is what people tell me that people that are used to putting these kinds of things on with us being overriding were 102 103. I can’t remember what I told you last night, but it’s 102 As of right now. And so we’re gonna people that are in the know, say we’re gonna get to least 150. So I think we’re, we’re in really good shape, get your hotel room, go to the Facebook group and get the link to the moonrise hotel or call the moonrise. Let them know that you’re part of our crew to get that discount, because it’s going to fill up and as Jimmy posted in his video, it’s going to be a little bit of a drive to get to the hotel, we’re in a little different location. So make sure you get that hotel right away.
You know, I was looking over the list of topics. So we denounced the speakers a while back, but the actual topics themselves have me really excited. I mean, I think I’m gonna be sitting right there in the front row when we’re not on stage. Taking notes like everybody else, I think it’s just gonna be and I know it sounds corny to say value pack, but I think that everyone’s just going to come away with probably too much stuff to do. But when when you look at our conference pound for pound, I think there’s very little fat and I think that it’s just going to be pure implementable topics and activities.
Yeah, cuz last year, we did 45 minute segments for everybody. And this year, we’re cutting those down drastically. Most people have 20 minutes, somebody left 10 minutes. I mean, it is they’re small, and they’re just all actionable things. It’s gonna be solid. So take your notes, get your notebooks ready, it’s gonna be pretty awesome.
All right, well, let’s turn to our topic for today. And so you know, one of the things that we’d like to talk about here is sort of building that tribe. And I want to even narrow down a little bit from that. And that is building an audience. Because I really think that having a larger audience solves a lot of problems. And what I mean by that, I think that if our listeners are sitting around and saying to themselves, boy, I’d like to make more money, I’d like to have more cases. To me, the greatest thing that they can do is spend more time on building an audience. And so I think that there’s lots of different ways to do that. But there are people out in the world who need your services. And if your audience is too small, they’re not going to know that you’re there. And I know it sounds simplistic, but I really think that we need to spend some time on this episode talking about how people can actually go about building an audience. Yeah, and I think
there’s different ways of building audiences too. I think most people in actually honestly, whenever you first told me about this topic, you this morning, kind of mentioned it as kind of thinking okay, you know, audience or potential clients, and I’ve given it some thought, I don’t think that’s actually quite true. There are different audiences. And John Fisher has a good example of that, where he, he targets other other lawyers, like that’s his audience. It’s not potential clients. It’s actually potential referral partners. And that’s more of the model that I go off of. You go off of a model of your your audience is potential kids. Zoomers potential clients. Yeah, you do have a part of your newsletter is sort of targeted towards referral partners. But I think more of your business comes in from the internet and from videos, and not necessarily from referral partners, correct me if I’m wrong?
No. And I think I think that raises a great point. I mean, I think there’s totally different ways to build an audience. And I think that you can focus on a different audience. I think, Mitch Jackson is more of the social media type person who’s growing a brand. You know, he speaks at Tony Robbins, he has his legal minds group. And he’s, you know, always speaking at lawyer conferences, and I think that, you know, he’s building his audience in a different way. So I think there’s definitely lots of different ways to skin the cat. But I want to step back for a minute and just talk about the pure value of having a larger audience. Because if you are standing out in the woods, yelling, hey, hire me, you know, that’s not going to bring you to many people. But if you can find the people who want what you have, and spend your time amplifying that and amplifying your message, there are enough people in the world who need what you have to make a very, very nice life for yourself.
Yeah, so I don’t I mean, you’re at they elaborate a little bit more on this. What do you mean by by? What will you have?
Right? So okay, so let’s say like Dean Jackson talks about sometimes people that that need a new roof now. So if you’re a roofer, how do you identify the people that need a new roof, and there’s lots of different ways you could do it, you could drive up and down the street looking at houses, that wouldn’t be very efficient, you can do some datasets and try to figure out how old the houses in a particular neighborhood are, and maybe guess what their ages of the roofs are. But at the end of the day, you need people who need roofs. And so if you can find those people, if you can identify those people and spend more time trying to speak to them and build them, build them as an audience, I think that you’re really going to go a lot further than if you’re doing this sort of broad shotgun approach to marketing, I think you really need to find, you know, who are the people that know, my people that might do business for me. So like, for instance, one of the groups that I really liked to hang out with our international student advisors, I said to myself, Well, where are the immigrants? Well, there are a lot of immigrants, ecologists and immigrants and colleges, you know, they ended up marrying US citizens, they ended up getting jobs with employers. And so I’ve spent time figuring out ways to market to international students and even even better to market to the international student advisors. And so I’ve built an audience now people on my email list people that, you know, have downloaded my staying here book, which is targeted exactly to that group, that we now have an audience that participates in our Facebook group, and that and they talk to each other about immigration. So I think that’s one example.
So it’s interesting. And I’m gonna give away some of my secret sauce, I don’t really want to, but I’m going to. So one of my I don’t want to call it really a niche. But one of my, my groups of referral partners comes from solo, small, firm criminal defense firms. And I know that love those smaller, newer criminal defense lawyers, I mean, they’re making okay money, but they’re not making great money. I also know that they’re getting calls about auto accident cases that either they don’t know how to take. And so they just turned down or they don’t have to do them. And so what they do is they take them and they just sit in a drawer for months, they don’t do anything on it. So I was able to find a list. I can always make this list, but I actually stumbled upon a list of solo and small, firm criminal defense lawyers that happened to be on the public defender’s list. So in St. Louis County, St. Louis City, actually, across state, Missouri, if there’s overflow in public defender cases, what they’ll do is they’ll refer those cases to people that are on this list. And so my I target those people intentionally with, you know, lunches, phone calls, letters, emails, a variety of things. And none of them are advertising type of things. It’s, it’s more of, like, hey, getting to know you have this stuff. And so I’ve been pretty successful in getting referrals from that little bitty group of people. I get it from other people, too. But another way to talk about it is, what can you provide to these people that they’re looking for, and those people are looking for a boost in their income, a boost in their money? And I know that and so I find ways of targeting those people. So I think you’ve got to sort of narrow down an audience or a group of audiences to target before you before you start with what we’re talking about.
Yeah, so clearly, being deliberate about it as one thing and also, I think, as we’re talking it through, I’m thinking that that being hyper targeted is really important that, you know, you can build one little audience of people who Who are criminal defense attorneys who have pie cases sitting in their drawers or who don’t know what to do with pie cases? I know John Fisher works with a lot of people who sort of get in over their head on medical malpractice cases. And he sort of takes us over. Gary Berger certainly does that as well. I think mentoring is another great way for lawyers to get cases from other lawyers and, you know, Tyson, I think we’re, we’re missing the biggest example of all of building an audience. And that,
I guess don’t say, though, I want to I noted as newsletter, nope. Now, okay.
It’s sitting right in front of us. It’s its maximum lawyer. I mean, I think that if you look at the trajectory of what has happened with maximum lawyer in a very, very organic way, is that we’ve built this audience and as our audience has grown, the conference has grown and the Facebook group has grown. And so and the number of downloads on the podcast have grown. So I think that anybody who has been watching what we do, for the last two years can just sort of see the natural progression of what audience growth leads to the Facebook group has become this juggernaut of good, valuable information, with people sharing things that you and I, you know, we don’t chime in nearly as much as some people and they’re certainly long, productive, beneficial threads that we, you know, we try to monitor and we try to kick in, but it’s really the group. And I think that that leads to more people listening to the episodes. And I know that because I just looked at the at the numbers the other day, we’re up to about seven or 800 downloads an episode. And the conversations in the Facebook group are great.
Yeah, and I think an important lesson about this, because I, the people that are just getting to the podcast, they might have this idea that, you know, we really did a lot of promotion on this thing, getting it up and running it, let me back up just a second, those downloads, those are low if you compare them to like Gary Vaynerchuk. But as highly targeted as we are, those are really high numbers. And so it’s kind of mind blowing for you and me and Ken to talk about this because it really it was really are great numbers, because how highly targeted we are with this podcast, but it really kind of stepped back, it was just me and you on a microphone talking. And then the next thing we added, it was just one thing at a time we had in the Facebook group. And the next thing after that was the was the conference, and then something that is going out. Correct me if I’m wrong, Jim, this week, or next week, is we’re going to start a newsletter. And so one thing is we’re doing one thing at a time step by step by step, you know, it’s not just okay, we start doing all these things at one time, you’re gonna have a big audience. It’s not that it’s something that takes time that grows and grows and grows, you can’t just start getting an audience tomorrow. That’s not how it works. It’s building and then also providing value. And it’s not mean you you know, it’s not it’s not just our knowledge that we share it. It’s the knowledge of other people that we have them on, they’re willing to share. And so it’s just one thing after another after another, and it’s not just everything at one time.
Yeah. And I think that’s a really good point. And so, you know, when you think about building an audience, that can be overwhelming. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening to this right? Same How could I ever build an audience? How, why would it people ever find me interesting? Or what I have to say? And how long is it going to take, you know, I mean, we’re getting close to 10,000 YouTube subscribers, but there was certainly a day where I had one. And then there was a day where I had two, and then I had four. And it’s just sort of doing that legwork every day, consistent content creation, to make it so that people want to come back and listen to more. And people talk about creating value and all that stuff. And I agree. But it has to be interesting. And it has to be entertaining. And it has to be stuff that people want to know about. And so I think that this is this opportunity is there for any of our listeners, we have plenty of people in the group, who are doing a lot of really interesting things, building their own audiences. And I think that the key to it all is just a start.
So a couple more things. One is consistency, doing it consistently. You do your newsletter newsletter, every single week. I’m not sure if you’ve ever missed, but I see it all the time. If you’ve missed it may have been only one or two times. The other thing is we haven’t missed a week on this podcast. And so it’s doing it consistently. And the other thing is, and this is from Jay reweigh and his experiment, experiment, experiment, it’s okay. If it fails. It’s okay. If you do a couple of things and they don’t work. That’s fine. I’ve done things that just didn’t work. I’ve done things that did that work really, really well. Same thing for you, Jim. So experiment, but also once you find something that works, keep doing it and keep doing it consistently.
I want to be a little sensitive about the way I phrase this next part of the discussion, but I think that you’ll you’ll certainly appreciate what I’m saying and chime in. And that is that now that we have this audience and we’re trying to figure out what to do with it, and we’re seeing it sort of grow organically and we’re having so much fun with it. As we build the conference and that thing. It dawns Nanami this week as people are trying to get in front of our audience in different ways, and, and they’re doing it in lots of different ways, some totally cool, some pretty not cool. And I just think it’s interesting to watch the behavior of people now that there is an audience. And I think that, like I said, some people can use it for themselves and try to be very selfish about it. Some people are very giving and contribute a lot to the group. So what do you think about that?
I’m not sure I can be as PC as you are about this, I will try my best to be candid about it urge you and me sometimes that how people sometimes try to come in, and they just try to pitch themselves. And we do, we’re pretty hawkish, when it comes to making sure that people are coming into the group and marketing to that, there are posts that some people may have not may not have ever seen, because it was just a big sales pitch, and we deleted it right away and kick the person out of the group. Because we don’t want it to be about that it’s you and I aren’t making any money off this thing. We’re not, it’s not what this is about. This is about getting a group of people together, and really just sharing ideas and growing together. And it’s, somebody will try to take advantage of it. And it’s, it’s annoying at times, but you’ve also have people that come in, and all they do is provide value. And that’s awesome. I mean, there are we there are some marketing companies in our group that that we allowed in early on, or they were guests on the show, we let them in on in all they do is provide value, they don’t sell to the group. And we really, really appreciate that. And that’s, that’s what we want. We want people that are willing to come in, provide value, share with each other, we all grow together. But the rest of you, not the rest of you, the people that that want to just come in and sell and provide no value, we know who you are. We don’t like it. So cut it out.
So I think I can offer a contrast of two, two possible scenarios. And and you sort of touched on this. So last week, I was getting ready to watch this great show patriot, which you should watch. It’s really hilarious. But anyway, I was waiting for the show and Amani was doing something with the kids. And I was looking at my phone. And there’s a member of our group who is actually another lawyer, immigration lawyer, and she was putting on a CLE. And a it was about legal marketing and running your practice. And she must have been in the group for a long time. But she’s never participated never left a comment, never done anything in the group. And she wanted to know if it would be okay to pitch her conference in the group. And I’m like, No, you know, we have a conference of her own coming up. It’s such as the exact same topics. And most importantly, you’ve never participated in the group. Nobody knows who you are. So if you take that, and if you contrast that, let’s say that, that will Edie came to us and said, Hey, I put together this course on how to have pillar content for your website and how SEO games are really just nothing more than games. And I want to teach lawyers how to do this. I mean, will has given so much great content and information and been such a great participant. He’s been one of our greatest advocates, you and I would say hell yes. And we would sign up for that course, if Wayne Pollack, who was on the show, and who came to the conference and put on one of the best sessions that we had at the conference. If he said, Jim, I’ve put together this package for, you know, PR for lawyers, what lawyers, the, you know, a course that lawyers need to know how to, you know, spread publicity on a particular case, you and I would say Heck, yeah, dude, get it on in there. So I think it’s all about about being honest, and nice and straightforward and participating.
Yeah, I mean, listen, I have no problem with people just coming into the group and just observing and taking information. It’s just the ones that want to just, they don’t want to contribute in and they just want to take take, take, take take. And it’s just not what the group’s about the group, the group is built on those real Go Giver principles. If you, if you’re just a casual observer, and you look at our group, that’s what it is. It’s just a bunch of givers. And that’s what I like people like Bernard Nonnberg, and Nick Ortiz, and so many other people, and I’m gonna leave people out, I’m not gonna go out and lift a bunch of people. But all they do is contribute, they do nothing else, and other than contribute, and they don’t try to take and so it’s, it really is a testament to how great the group is because it’s so awesome. Just seeing people share some of the not just some of their best ideas, their best ideas, and contributing to this and just adding value to everyone else’s lives. It’s just so amazing to watch sometimes.
So let’s talk to our listener who’s heard our call and he’s asked he or she has asked how do I build an audience? What, what is the tip or two that you would give them to build an audience as quickly as they can?
We know what number one is, right? You come up with a list, right? I would say that that’s what number one is. Or number one could be come up with a message so it’s either list than message or messenger and then list they’re going to build off of each other because as, for example, what if you take my example for criminal defense lawyers, you know, targeting those, those that small little niche there, then at the craft a message to them in some way. And so I’d say start with a list and then craft a message and then consistently communicate with to them in whatever fashion you choose can be via sushi or social media can be the podcast to be lunches that you wanted. Every week, you pick one person from that list each week, have lunch with them. However you choose to do it, communicate with them consistently. All right, that’s
all well and good. But I’m talking about big audiences. And to me the two biggest ways to build an audience, our podcasts and YouTube, the podcast, thank God for you Tyson being as consistent as you were, because, you know, I’ve started two or three podcasts before and it’s really your, your consistency. And you know, having Francisco on the back end helping us make sure these episodes always go out. But having a podcast and being in people’s ears when they’re doing their laundry, or driving their kids around, or whatever it is, when people listen to podcasts at the gym. I just think that there’s no substitute for people’s true identities to come through when they’re talking week after week. I think people know us very, very well. I mean, you and I both had experiences where listeners have come up to us on the street or in the courthouse and said, Hey, I’ve been listening to your podcast. I mean, Moe talks about this all the time with his tips from Moe, there’s just no substitute for being regularly connected with people in either video or audio format. I mean, YouTube has been huge for us, half of my consults now come off YouTube. So I really encourage people I know, it’s a lot of work. I know, it’s intimidating. But there’s just no substitute, especially now, you know, in this social media age that we have, where people are going to be connected. And if you’re not doing these things, I really think you’re gonna get left behind.
I agree with you. I mean, it’s and I wouldn’t disagree with you at all i because to me, and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but if you’re just start starting with our podcast, early on, I talked about how the difference for me when it came to YouTube, when people getting to know me was, you know, I started putting videos out and then pushing them out through Facebook each day. And then people in the courthouse and started knowing my name judges knew my name, hey, Mr. Matrix, but the bulk of what people that I, you know, you see around the courthouse all the time that say, Hey, buddy, how you doing? I don’t really know your name. They started knowing my name. So YouTube was a big game changer when it comes to came to that. And then the podcasts are so right. I mean, we’ve got I’ve got people in the courthouse all the time saying, hey, Tyson, what’s going on? You gotta get me on the podcast, gotta get me on the podcast. And like that, it really is cool to think like it. Yeah, we’ll get you on the podcast. And some of those guests, we will get on the podcast. So it’s, it is really kind of cool, just how it does spread. But I think if you if you don’t want to do those two things, you do need to sort of go back to basics and create your list and target that list. And whether it’s with a newsletter or some other way, but not everybody wants to do a podcast, everybody wants to get in front of a video. They’re not all like us. And so there is there are simpler ways of doing it. And those those are getting a list and start targeting that list. But you’re right, though it being in people’s ears as they’re doing the lawn or working out or whatever it is, it is it is a huge advantage. So if you’ve got something that you want, you have to talk about, and everyone does, it’s easy to do a podcast in general, just the hardest parts just being consistent about it.
Alright, well, I think we should wrap up the show.
Let’s do it. Before we do, I want to remind everyone to go to that amazing Facebook group get involved. Let me put a challenge out there. For those of you that have been listening a while and you haven’t said anything. Just introduce yourselves, everyone. You know, hey, I’ve been on here for a while I haven’t said anything. Just say hi to everyone. You’re gonna like it. Trust me. Just dip your toe in the water. You’ll love it. Then also, you don’t mind, go to iTunes and give us a five star review. If you’ve not done so yet. It really does help. So please help spread the love. Jimmy, what’s your hack of the week?
So my hack of the week is a little game that our friend Monica Lewinsky sent me I don’t know if she sent this to you. It’s called foretells and it’s less small talk more genuine conversations. It’s a little card game. It’s fun. We’ve We’ve played it here in the office a couple of times it sort of gets you to sort of talk about things that happened in the past. And it’s just sort of a fun way to meet other people and are to connect on a deeper level. So check it out. It’s a little in a little black box is called hotels.
And of course she sent me one too. It’s awesome. But we, my wife and I opened up right away and we dove right in. So really awesome. Thank you, Annika, I know I sent you a text before thanking you. But thank you so much. We really do appreciate it. All right, Jimmy for my tip of the week, it’s Maui mastermind.com. So the book that I’ve been reading recently, which is the name of it is escaping me. It’s called scales by Jeff Hoffman and David Finkel. Really good book, their website Malli mastermind.com. It gives away a lot of free tools, financial tools. Whatever it is, we’re running a business. It really is good. So I subscribe to the newsletter. They don’t hit you with a bunch of stuff. It’s a couple times a week. It’s not too much. But they do give you free tools. You can always unsubscribe, you can get the download toolkits, and then, and then unsubscribe if you want, but it really is good. So I highly recommend checking it out. So, all right, Jimmy, thanks so much. It’s been a lot of fun today. Great talking to you and everyone. Have a good week.