Navigating the Challenges of a Niche Market with Ashley Garbe Smith

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

Are you a lawyer who is looking for some advice on starting a firm? In this episode, Tyson interviews Ashley Garbe Smith, an attorney and founder of AGS Law, which specializes in dental transitions. Ashley shares her journey of starting her law firm during the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020.

Ashley provides some insights on the benefits and lessons learned from narrowing a practice as it relates to running a law firm. For Ashley, who used to work in the dental field, niching down in the legal space to do dental transitions was a familiar thing. For those who are hoping to narrow down a practice field, it is good to think about areas you already have expertise in. Did you focus on a specific practice in law school? Did you spend a year articling for a specific lawyer and learned the ins and outs of that field? Play to your strengths when you are thinking about narrowing or niching down your firm.

It is no surprise that lawyers are very busy and suffer from burnout quickly. Ashley and Tyson chat about the importance of self care for lawyers. Most lawyers wear many hats and dedicating time to self care will not only allow you to last longer in the business but have a better outlook on life. Schedule self care into your busy calendar and make it known to your colleagues the importance of it. This can help you stay on track to dedicating time to it and show others that it matters to you so they respect that time.

Listen in to learn more from Ashley!

Episode Highlights:

• 03:01 Niche Practice Area Dynamics 
• 04:58 Client Expectations in Niching 
• 05:50 Benefits of Specialization 
• 12:04 Challenges in Valuing Law Firms 
• 13:08 Importance of Self-Care 

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Resources:

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• Subscribe to the Maximum Lawyer YouTube Channel
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Transcripts: Navigating the Challenges of a Niche Market with Ashley Garbe Smith

Speaker 1 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host Tyson Metrics.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:11 Welcome, Ashley. How are you? Good. Thanks. So we've interviewed you before. So I went back and looked at that transcript, which was it was interesting. It was cool. I want to start with something else, though. Okay. You started AGS law, I guess what year was it? It was.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:00:27 2020, right when Covid.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:29 Hit. Right. So I have a post from October 29th of 2020. Okay. And then we'll get your thoughts on it okay. All right. So you put in there it says launching on November 2nd legal services offered. And you list a bunch of legal services. Yeah, I sure did. All right. So I want to I want to know how do you feel about the post now with a little bit of hindsight silly.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:00:49 I actually feel a little bit silly about it because I think going into it, I was at a general practice law firm. I mean, we did litigation, but we kind of just did everything that came into the door.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:01:01 And so I thought, that's the way that you make money in a law firm, like you just do all of the things, and then you can get all of the clients. And the interesting thing, it wasn't until I started listening to Maximum Lawyer, probably about six months after I started the firm, and you guys were talking about Niching down. Now, I knew at the time that I was going to do dental transitions, but also I thought, well, how many dentists could be buying or selling practices like this? Seems like maybe I'll get 1 or 2 a month. And so I felt like I had to really be broad when I started out. And it wasn't until about six months after. First of all, I was super overwhelmed. I wasn't getting the clients that I wanted. I was getting kind of crap clients because I was just taking everything and, and, and then when I really niche down and decided, like, I am really just going to focus on dental transitions, that's when I got more clients.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:01:57 I wasn't feeling quite as overwhelmed. I was able to really specialize. But yeah, I was going to do everything.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:03 So I do wonder. I hear this sometimes where attorneys feel less fulfilled whenever they're not doing all the different things because they get more variety. And what are your thoughts on that?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:02:14 Well, I thought the same thing. And I remember thinking that like, even when I just had graduated law school because I thought, well, I want to do litigation because then I can be in the courtroom and, but I want to do estate planning because then I can make people feel happy when we sign their estate plan. So I, I get that. But now being a firm that has really niched down, I don't feel any less fulfilled doing this than I did doing all of the other things. In fact, I actually feel more fulfilled now because I'm actually I'm able to do the things I want to do. Aside from being a law firm owner and a boss and a lawyer, like I'm able to spend more time with my family and do things like this and travel.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:02:56 And so I feel actually more fulfilled because I've really niche down.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:01 So something I was thinking about with your practice area, it is it is really it's I won't say odd, but it's, it's so different than many. I mean, it's like a niche within a niche within a niche. Yes. So it's really difficult. But something I was thinking about. So with this post you, you mentioned all these different practice areas. Yeah. I mean it's probably 30. It's a, it's a bunch of them. But the I just wonder it seems like with your practice area, you might be doing a lot of these things inside of that niche. Or am I or am I wrong.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:03:32 No, I think that that's probably right because. So I mean, it still is business law and I don't know, I probably had trademarks on there too. And and at some point I was doing trademarks for some of my dental clients and now I in fact, it was the last guild mastermind that I went to.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:03:49 I think you said get rid of trademarks, and I did. And so even that's gone out the window. And so really it's business law kind of acquisitions and and then still some estate planning because you have dentists who are selling their practices and they still haven't created a trust. So that's really basically it. What other practice areas are on there.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:11 Oh I can go to them. You did you definitely had trademarks. Yeah. Business formation, business succession contract drafting and review, customizable contracts available on the website. Trademark registration, employment handbooks and documents, business consulting, demand letters, cease and desist letters. I can keep going. I am one fourth of the way through it. No.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:04:31 That's terrible. Yeah. Oh that's embarrassing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:32 It's a long list. Yeah. You mentioned the like the freedom of the like kind of stuff. But I mean, what have you learned from every time you've niched down like it is because it is interesting people. The thought is I'm going to remove this practice area.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:48 I'm going to make less money. Yeah. Well, you and I both know that that's not true. You do make more money, but what other lessons are there inside of that about Niching down?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:04:58 I think the big one is what's interesting is when I have clients call me and we're talking about dentist. So when I have when I have dentists call me and we do a consultation, they specifically all almost all of them ask are you dental specific? Which is so funny because how many lawyers are you really going to ask that? But that's what they want because they've talked to their broker and they've talked to their lender and they've talked to other people, the other dentists, and everyone has told them you need an attorney that does dental transitions because there's something unique about dental transitions. So almost all of them will ask me, are you dental specific? How many transitions do you do in a year? You know, how many of you done overall and it makes them feel more confident. So my conversion rate on consultations is really high because of that, because I've niche down.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:05:50 So it's not hard for me to convert clients, and also because I've specialised and I've taken the time to really understand this practice area, it's actually easier for me. It's reduce the amount of time that I spend and I charge a flat fee. So at the beginning, when I wasn't as well-versed in this and I was doing a bunch of other stuff, it the flat fee would sometimes really kill me, but now the flat fee works to my advantage.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:17 Why is.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:06:17 That? Because it takes me less time than it did three years ago. But I'm still offering the same thing. I'm just spending less time doing it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:26 Interesting. Have you ever dug into the mindset why these? I mean, they're dentists right there and usually doctors in general are highly specialized. Yes. So have you. I mean, is that why. Yes. Okay. So for.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:06:41 Sure. And well, dentists are a lot like lawyers have big egos.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:47 Okay. Not as bad as authors, but I know.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:06:49 Oh well and I do work with a lot of orthodontists, too.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:06:51 And they do have bigger egos. Just kidding.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:54 They're they're probably at the. They're right below like fighter pilot I think.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:06:57 Yeah. There's I mean there's egos there, there are egos that I have to deal with. But I'm an attorney and I understand that. Yeah. I think because they understand specialized like specialization, I think they expect that from an attorney. Like they, they know. Well, I'm not going to go to my brother who's a family law attorney to do my acquisition. So I think that's why.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:20 So I'm gonna ask you something. I asked Paul about this there. We interviewed an attorney that runs a massive P.I. firm, and they're they're expanding really, really, really quickly in their in his own words, he said they're the fastest growing in the country. I don't know if that's true, but he's talking about consolidation and how in the in the next ten years there's going to be massive consolidation. I don't know if that's true. If you think about people like Seth Godin, he seems to have the mindset.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:47 It's the opposite. That's with attorneys. It's going to be a little bit different. I wonder what your thoughts because you have a very specific niche. You're not going to see some massive, you know, conglomerate of a of a firm that, you know. So I just I wonder what your thoughts on that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:08:00 Yeah. Well it's interesting I think right now there are probably if you asked people in the industry. So again I'm talking about brokers and, and there are dental brokers and dental lenders. And if you ask them to name the attorneys that they know, they're going to name about five, and I'm going to be included in, in that list of five. And that's how it has been over the last four years. It hasn't really changed. There's still the same 5 or 6 attorneys or firms, and those firms aren't growing massively there. You know, there's some of the you know, because there's just me and I've got two other attorneys, but there are some other firms, like there's one in Pennsylvania, and they have ten attorneys.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:08:45 And that's probably like the biggest one. And they are dental specific as well. So but that's that's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:51 Surprising with that size of a firm for dental specific only.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:08:54 I know it's kind of crazy. And I mean and they do a lot of transitions. So I think that's the biggest one. Otherwise I mean you're looking at solo and small firms and it's not growing that much. And you've got the lenders and the brokers who know who they can trust. So I don't see it growing a ton. Also, the the dental industry itself is changing because like medical, a lot of dentists are selling their practices to those which are corporations. And that's what happened with the medical industry as well. So I don't see it growing. I do, you know, potentially see it actually shrinking because of that, because there's going to be a lot fewer dentists to dentist transitions. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:37 So we had someone on the podcast last week and he talked about he's he's got an exchange for law firms that want to buy and sell which it seems like you hear more about doctors and dentists doing it than lawyers.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:50 Yeah. I'm hoping that shifts at some point. Do you see, maybe in the future, some sort of transition where you would add something like attorney, you know, buying and selling and practices.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:10:00 Yeah. Well so right now so I've been focusing on dentists, but I have had optometrists contact me. And like optometry is so much like a dental practice. So optometrist vets. So I foresee something like a law firm transition being very similar to that. What's interesting is I wonder how you would value a law firm, because there's a very specific way to value, like a dental practice or an optometry practice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:32 Yeah. What is the understanding of that?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:10:34 Yeah, it's based on a percentage of collections. And so it's not as much as you think, you know, because you look at other businesses and you're if you're buying another business, you might be buying at two x the revenue, but it's the opposite with dental practices, where you're probably spending around 80 to 90% of like the previous year's collections.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:10:53 So I mean, sometimes you're spending 100% depending on where the practice is and things like that. But I just I would be interested to know how you would value a law firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:04 So it's interesting with the dental. So essentially if let's say there's, you know, just even simple math. So if you have if you have a million, million dollars, $1 million in revenue, so basically you're buying it for $300,000.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:11:16 Well, like if you have $1 million in revenue in 2023, you're buying it for 80 to 90% of that. So it's like 800 800 and 900,000.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:28 Gotcha I misunderstood that okay. Good. So I understand the math okay. Gotcha. That that makes sense. And I'm guessing that that works in dental because there's returning clients right. Or patients patients different I guess there could be some practice areas that would work. But I mean.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:11:42 Like with, like with my type of practice area, I've got clients who come in and I do the thing for them and then they're done there.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:11:50 I mean, some of them are returning clients who are buying additional practices, but really and I think that's kind of how it is for most law firms, unless you're like, unless you have like some corporate clients that just stay with you. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:04 I could see how you could do with Pi, because what I can do is I can look at our caseload, I can look at our average average fee, but I can also take some of those and say, okay, we've got these bigger cases. These are take those outside the average fee. They're worth more. I could see that. I would have it really difficult. I would have a problem valuing a criminal defense firm, something like that for sure.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:12:23 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:24 Or divorce for a divorce firm. Unless they're getting a divorce every two years. Some of that, which that's not going to happen. Yeah. That's interesting okay. So I want to shift a little bit and you have a post on Instagram.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:12:40 I'm kind of embarrassed about these posts now.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:12:42 Be careful what you put on the internet. Oh.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:44 It's true. No, don't be embarrassed. Don't be embarrassed. This is not an embarrassing post. The first one I did was the only embarrassing one I.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:12:51 Wanted to do. So only embarrassing one I've ever posted.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:53 The U have in a post, I pulled a snippet out of an. Overall, there was a lot more text in it, but you said as a mom, wife, and business owner, self care has become increasingly important and I just wonder what I want to get your perspective on that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:13:08 Yeah. So I mean I think that sometimes and I'm not even just going to say as women, I think just as high achieving people, I think we can really drive ourselves to, to burn out and overwhelm fast. And you know, I want to be the best wife and the best mom and the best law firm owner and the best boss. And when you do that, you're going to end up pissing someone off because you're trying to please everybody.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:13:36 It's like this recovering people pleaser in me. And so for me, I have just learned that I have to take time for myself every single day. So I wake up in the morning and I go to the gym like, that's my me time. And I, I kind of have the same routine. I go, I actually work out at a place called F45 and so they have the workout completely planned out for me. I don't have to plan anything. I just go and I work out and I get to spend time with friends and that's that is my meal time. But on top of that, like, you know. So right now we're in Charlotte for the the Guild mastermind. What do we actually call it? Mastermind. Mastermind. Yeah. So this is self-care for me because I don't have my family with me. I come and I travel and I do this thing for me and it for me. It's really rejuvenating. You know, lately I've been feeling pretty burnt out. I've been really busy.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:14:35 This is my busy season And, you know, the other day I just went and got a pedicure and a manicure. And it's just nice to be able to just forget about everything, even if it's just for an hour or two and, and then come back and feel rejuvenated and ready to dive in and work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:54 Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned the Guildmaster, because the last time that post was from the last mastermind. Oh it was. That that is.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:15:01 Really.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:01 Funny. Yeah. That's good. The I want to ask you about the about the personal training. Is there the gym you go to, is it personal trainer or do you go? How's it work?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:15:10 So the way it is. So if you know orange theory, it's very similar. So F45 orange theory, you go they have set classes during the day and they do have personal trainers there. And you go and you do like stations. So it's hit training and there's a screen on the wall. It's like a TV that shows you what you're doing.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:15:29 And then as you're doing it, you've got the personal trainers that are coming around and making sure that your form is right, but you're all kind of doing the same workout and rotating through stations. And so it's not like it's kind of like mindless, like you don't have to think about it too much. I hate putting together my own workouts.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:46 So the reason why I ask this, I'm like you, I just want to go to the gym and workout. I but I do use a trainer and they tell me what to do. They just said, yeah, you do these things. What I like about it is they are professionals. Like we're professionals. Yeah. And I may not be doing that certain workout. Right. And they say, okay, you need to go a little deeper on that because you get more, you get more out of it. So I brought that up. I think it whether, you know, it's one of those things that's overlooked because yeah, like in our profession, we especially early on, you grind, you grind, you grind and you, you, you really don't focus on the health side of things and it can be really detrimental.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:16:24 Yeah. Well, in law school I didn't even work out at all. And and I was depressed. I mean, it was also law school. So, you know, it's kind of depressing sometimes, but but it makes such a difference. If I go 2 or 3 days without working out, I feel it mental. I mean mentally more than physically. So for me it's actually it's it's my anxiety medicine.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:49 Yeah. No, I think I think it's a good way of putting it. And I just it's one of the things like if we could pass on something to listeners like get take care of yourself because.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:16:57 100%, if.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:58 You can't do that, you can't, you're going to there's many sad stories, depression of people dying, of heart attacks, things like that, that just they got to take care of themselves. It's it's yeah. I don't I don't know if we focus on it enough, I'm going to shift gears a little bit. And you talked in our previous episode. You've talked you've been pretty open about this, but you lose.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:18 You lost your husband in a helicopter crash. Now how many years ago is it.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:17:24 So it was exactly 20 years ago last month.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:27 That's that's incredible. I didn't realize it's been that long but yeah 20 years ago and it You talked about a couple of things that you learned from it, but I want to focus on the part where you said it. It could make you be a bit fearless. And what that did for you is at the time, you were not a lawyer. You weren't, you know, you weren't. I didn't even plan on.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:17:51 No. Yeah. I didn't plan on being a lawyer at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:53 Right. So that that caused you to then go to college, become a lawyer. And my question to you, though, is that why is it do you think that people tend to need a tragedy like that to make a change like that?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:18:07 I don't know if it's that they need a tragedy like that. I think you have some people that will will just do it because they have that desire.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:18:17 I think some of us need the tragedy because we need the push and need that understanding that life is short, and sometimes you don't really fully grasp that until you go through a tragedy. you lose someone that you love at a young age or at any age, honestly, because it really does put life into perspective. And so I think I, I think it just pushes people. It makes people realize that we only have a certain amount of time on this earth, and so you might as well just do the things that you want to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:53 Yeah. Whenever you you're working with these dentists that want to sell their practice, are you are you getting them usually at the point where it's early on enough where they can they can enjoy their life or are they at the end of the road? Basically, it's.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:19:07 So interesting with dentistry. These guys love their practices and I and most of the time I can't even tell you how many times I've had someone selling their practice. And he's like, well, my wife says it's time.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:19:20 And he's like, they're like 75 years old. And and it's really their wife saying, okay, I need time with you now. Like, our time is short and you've got to sell your practice. And so most of the time it's almost too late where I don't know how much more they can enjoy, you know, I mean, some of them can go and travel, but at 75, 80, how much are you really able to do. And so I think some of them just get so wrapped up in owning their business, owning their practice and having these relationships with their patients. And it's understandable as a firm owner. But they a lot of them, it's really late in life that they're doing that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:00 So it's kind of the the reverse and I can't remember the exact quote, but it's essentially at what point in your life did you choose to give up your dream or at what cost did you like, you know, like so you essentially gave up an early it's like the reverse of that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:13 You're they give up on their dream, but it's later on in life.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:20:16 Yeah. Oh yeah, I think so. I, I think that's what as we've got like some music or something. Oh there's like a motorcycle game blasting their music.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:25 But I think that's what it was a motorcycle. Yeah.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:20:29 Yeah, I, I think we can get really wrapped up in the job and, and what we do. And it's so interesting that a lot of them are saying, well, it's my spouse that now wants me to sell this business. And to me, that's really telling because your spouse has watched you go through this and is like, okay, like, now it's my time. Like, you and I need to have time together because you've been doing this for so many years and we haven't even been able to travel.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:58 So okay, let's talk a little bit about that because it's interesting when you own your own firm. Your your personal life. It's wrapped into your business life. Oh yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:08 There is no way of separating. We like to say there's like this work life balance. That's but it's total bullshit. Yeah. Right. And and I wonder, given your past experiences and given the fact that you're running this business, I wonder, like what? What does that bring into your marriage? Whenever you're, you're you're speaking to your husband and dealing with his dreams and and all that. What do you bring to the marriage when it comes to that?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:21:29 You know, it's interesting because. So a couple weeks ago, well, about a week ago, I had to fire my paralegal. And so I ended up replacing her. But there was a period of two weeks where I just was working until 2 a.m. every single night because I didn't have a paralegal. And he kept saying, this is not sustainable. And and he's right. It's not. And then a couple days later, my son, my 11 year old, I heard him talking to his friends and they were like, hey, we want to go to the local water park.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:22:05 Do you think your mom could take us? And he's like, no, she's always working. That's all she's ever doing is working. And it hit me so hard because I've got my husband saying, okay, this is not sustainable. I've got my 11 year old saying, I'm always working and it really can. I mean, fortunately, my husband is so patient and understanding because when he started working at the company that he's at now, he's the president of this company and he's a shareholder. But when he started there, it was very similar. For the first three years, it was night and day. I mean, he was working night and day and and he said, I just need to put in this time for this first 3 to 4 years and then, you know, we'll be able to have more time together. And he was absolutely right. And so because he understands that he understands what I'm going through and he's very patient. But if you don't take the time for your marriage and your kids like number one, they notice and they'll see what you're prioritizing above them.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:23:10 And that can be painful for them and for you. And and number two, it like it really can start to separate you. So for my husband and me like we we will always like have a show that we're watching together. And I know, like, you know, we're just sitting in bed watching a show, but at least it's like, okay, here's the thing that we're doing. And this is like every Sunday, we're going to watch this show together. Right now, it's House of the Dragon. And so that's like what we're watching right now. And so we have I mean, you know, and like we schedule out time. I was about to give away too much information. But like you have to schedule the time. So yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:50 So like it's it's something that, you know Amy and I that we, we, we've got date night like that's something that we have date night. We know we have date night. Are we always able to hit that? No, but we're pretty damn good at it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:00 Yeah. It's because it's on our calendar. You know, it's one of those things that's exactly on a calendar. So I wonder, do you go to that extent where you put things on your counter like that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:24:08 If it's not on my calendar it's not happening. Sure. And that's everything. So you know it might seem like like too much like I'm putting everything on my calendar but I just number one I'll forget like for. In fact, I forgot my son's soccer practice last week because I just didn't have it on my calendar. But like, you know, Wednesday nights, Saturday nights, that's time for us.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:34 That's interesting. That's great. I want to I want to shift gears a little bit. And I we were talking about dreams a little bit night. So I'm going to move this up into where I was going to talk about it. Okay. You had an album that you put out in 2012, 2012, and I think that's awesome. That's really cool. Tell me about that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:51 And I want to like, give me give me the details. How old were you in 2012?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:24:55 Okay. Let's see, in 2012 I was I was born in 82. So how old does that make me in 2012, I was.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:01 The math should be easy for us, but it's not 30 years old. Yes.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:25:04 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. So before that, before I put that album out. So I actually lived in Greenville, South Carolina in my early 20s, so about ten years prior to that. So, you know, 2002 to about 2005. About 2000 to 2005 I lived in South Carolina and I was playing the music scene. I was writing songs I was co-writing with some people I actually became acquainted with. I mean, and this was a long time ago. So people aren't going to know some of these names. But like Edwin McCain back in the day, no one knows that name, but no.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:42 Idea who that is. No.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:25:43 But anyway, he was there in Greenville, and so I was a songwriter, and I was in that scene and I tried recording an album there, and I did, and it was garbage.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:25:55 And so I really wanted to do like a fully produced album and but it cost money. And so I would, I would play out and play in bars, play gigs, and then I moved back to Utah and I played in a country band where I was the keyboard player in the backup singer, and we actually I played with a girl named Lindsey Stirling, who is now like a violinist. She tours around the world, she dances and she plays the violin, and she sells out all of her venues.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:24 That. That's impressive, because I can't imagine, like, doing either of those things. And at the same time, she's like.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:26:29 And she does like, aerial, like acrobatics. But at the time she played for me and she played in this country band with me, and now she's this big star. But I realized, like, playing with someone else wasn't. I mean, it fulfilled some need of me, just like going out and playing and performing. But I had this songwriter inside of me, and I had these songs that I wanted to get out.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:26:49 So I saved up the money and and producing this album, and in my mind I was like, okay, I'm going to put this out there and I'm and I'm going to get a record deal and I'm going to be a big rock star. Well, that is not what happened. I recorded the album, I had an album release party, and I think there were like 50 people there, and like half of them were my family members, because we're in Utah and we've got big families out there and so did not get a record deal. No one at the time that was 2012. Like, I mean, my music is on iTunes and Spotify, but we still had like CDs and I would have like one person a week, like ordering the CD and I'd have to go and mail it. And it was kind of a pain in the butt.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:32 Sounds like a real pain. Yeah, it was not how I visualized it. That's not.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:27:35 Terrible. And so then I'm like, well, I just I don't even want to do that anymore.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:27:38 People can just get listened to on Spotify or Apple Music. So it honestly, for me, it was also an a like an awakening where it's like, okay, if you want to do this, do it because you love it. Like it's not it's not going to get you to where you're hoping it's going to get you. The music industry is much harder than being a lawyer, like it was so much harder being a musician than it was going to law school and becoming an attorney, because a lot of it is luck. Most of it is who you know. Some of it is what you're willing to compromise and give up. Because when I was in South Carolina, I actually went and I met with a producer down in Atlanta who had produced Madonna at the time, and he was like, we can make you big, can you dance? And I was like, I mean, yeah, do I want to dance? No. And he's like, okay, well, if you can, if you can dance and you can sing pop songs and you can dress like a pop star will make you a pop star.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:28:37 Well, that is not what I wanted. So I wasn't even willing to compromise and do that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:42 It's interesting to me that it does seem to me, from the outside looking in, that that industry does try to take who you are and change you into someone else.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:28:50 Yeah, absolutely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:52 I wonder what what lessons you learned from that experience that you've been able to bring into your practicing law?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:28:59 Well, I think probably the first and foremost is confidence. In order to get up on stage in front of thousands of people, you have to have some level of confidence. And and it doesn't mean that I didn't, like, get stage fright or I didn't feel nervous. I still do, you know, I'll still perform every once in a while for fun. And I still, like, get the butterflies and I still get nervous, but but it's helped me have a lot of confidence. And I think I've been able to bring that into my practice and just know, you know what? Like, you might screw up, you might mess something up and that's okay.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:29:36 You just stay confident and know that you fix it and move on. I think the other thing let me you know, there's there's actually so there are a lot of lawyers who are musicians. And part of it is I think again, it's like a high achieving thing. You know, we all maybe played an instrument growing up and became lawyers because we were high achieving. And but I think knowing that, you know, if you just practice something and keep doing something a lot, you're going to Be an expert at it at some point. And so that's especially with niching down like with dental transitions. It's like if I just keep doing this, I'm going to be an expert in this at some point. And it's the same thing with, you know, playing the piano and singing. It's just practicing the same thing over and over again.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:29 I do like that idea of, you know, getting better, and a lot of it is just doing the same thing over and over again. So I think that's a pretty valuable lesson.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:39 I'm going to ask you about resilience because you you tragically lost your husband. Your music career didn't go the way you had planned. And so I wonder, what does that make you more want? Like more fear of the future? Does it make you stronger? So what are your. Well, just tell me about that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:30:57 I think failure is such a good thing. And and I remember my mom saying this to me like when I was a teenager and she said, you know, I, I want my kids to fail at things because It makes us stronger. It it really does make you a better person. And and I think the same thing for my kids, you know, and you want your kids to do all the things that they want to do. And my son tried out for a club soccer team and didn't make it. And honestly, I wasn't that sad because these sports now are so.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:32 Travel all over the place.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:31:33 Freaking expensive. Yeah. And but and and it was sad.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:31:37 I was sad for him. But also I was like, you know what? He needs to understand that like, life can be hard and you just move on and and it actually I just think that's such a good lesson that, you know, we can get knocked down and some of it is going to be our fault. The things that we bring on ourselves, and some of it is going to be circumstances that we can't control. And so it's whatever we do with that that matters. And, you know, you just got to get back up and just keep going.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:05 So tell me, where does that mindset come from? Because, I mean, you and I, we both know a lot of people that something bad has happened to them, and they just shut down. They give up, right? They, they. It's something that let me back in. Amy, we're talking about at lunch where they're sometimes people, something bad happens and they just give up. They, they they will never strive because they always have that excuse.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:28 Right? Oh yeah. So I've got.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:32:29 I have family members who are like that because I think it's easy to get in the victim mentality too, where it's like, well that's it. Like everything is everyone else's fault and there's nothing I can do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:39 Why? Why didn't that happen to you? You have you have plenty of excuses.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:32:42 I think for me, well, number one, it's not my personality, but but I also just think, well, you know, I do have faith in a higher power and I, you know, I, I understand there are a lot of listeners that aren't going to agree with that, but but I feel like there has been something that.

Speaker 4 00:33:07 Has.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:33:07 Helped push me along now if I'm being honest. When my husband first died, I was in a downward spiral. So I was playing bars with musicians who were doing drugs and drinking a lot, staying up a lot, and and behaving in a lot of like self-destructive behaviors. And I started down that path.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:33:32 And so, you know, so I, you know, I, I was drinking and and trying things that, you know, trying drugs that I hadn't tried before. And it did not bring happiness at all. And it it brought like a lot more chaos into an already chaotic situation. So I was able to step back and see that that's not the life I wanted to live. But honestly, I do feel whether it was the universe or God or whatever it was That pushed, that helped push me past that, to help get me over that, to see that that is not the life I wanted to live, and that wasn't the life that was meant for me to live.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:16 It's good to say, because I want to ask you about the happiness thing. There is a professor that was on Modern Wisdom podcast. It's by Chris Williamson. You ever watched it? No. Okay. So it's great. You should check it out. But he had a Harvard professor on by the name of Arthur Brooks.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:33 And Arthur said, there's no such thing as being happy. It's just the constant pursuit of becoming happy. But with that, and one of the problems with the younger generations, and he picked on the younger generations, I think it applies to everybody. Yeah. Like we think that happiness is a destination, right? We never really it's a sliding scale. You've got bad days, you've got great days. And it's it's it kind of goes back and forth. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that, because that was an interesting thought and something I hadn't thought about before.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:35:05 You know, that's that is really interesting. And there's another podcast that I think it's called The Happiness Project anyway, that that actually explores this as well. And I, I agree, I think sometimes we get in this habit of being like, okay, when I'm done with this client, things are going to be better. When I'm done with this project, things are going to be better, and that's never the case.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:35:29 I think part of becoming an adult is just realizing, like, that's never there's never going to be one thing that ends and then all of a sudden you're golden forever. So I think it's more of just being able to be present in the moment that you're in and enjoy the moment that you're in and know that, like tomorrow, there might be a super shitty thing that happens and that's okay. I, I love this quote that my mom says, you know, whenever I'm feeling down or like I have a really, really crappy day, She'll be like, okay, today's your day. Feel it. You can feel it today. And then tomorrow is someone else's day. And so it's just time to move on. And then just continue to just be present and enjoy the life that you're living in that moment.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:18 I think that's good. Why? Why do you think why do you think lawyers struggle with that so much, though?

Speaker 5 00:36:24 Oh, this is a.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:36:27 Really good question. And we had to read a book in law school, and I think it was called The Happy Lawyer or not.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:36:34 I could be wrong, I can't remember, but it is. It's about this. And I think because the people who tend to get into this profession can be high strung, individuals can be highly anxious individuals and not I mean, I'm speaking very generally, obviously, but but there is a certain type of person that that chooses to enter this profession and work hard at it. You know, you've got some of the lawyers who are just like, you know, I just want to work for a nonprofit. I, you know, I want to work no more than 40 hours a week. And frankly, I look at those people and they look really happy, and, you know, they look like they really enjoy what they do. They probably aren't making much money, but that's okay for some people. So I think part of it is this, like incessant need to just constantly be reaching for more and reaching for the next best thing and, you know, making more money and frankly, like it's a struggle.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:37:30 It's something that I struggle with because it's like, okay, do I want to, you know, I know that I could make a lot more money doing what I'm doing, but is it worth the time that I'm going to spend? Is it worth that the effort and the time away from my family and that's that's a struggle that I think we all have and have to figure out for ourselves. Like at what point, at what point is it too much? And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and, and I, you know, I know that like, as a mom, I put pressure on myself as a woman and a female in a, in an industry that is highly male dominated. Still in Utah, there's it's still very male dominated. Interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:12 Okay. I didn't realize that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:38:13 Yeah. Okay. Very much so. You know, I think if we continue to put that pressure on ourselves, like, how can you be happy when you're, you're just constantly like reaching for the next best thing and not living in the moment.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:38:25 So part of it is a personality thing, the type of personalities that flock to this type of career and, and then part of it is just not learning to be present. I think for me, meditation has helped a ton with that. So I've, I've implemented a meditation practice and I try and do it every day. I don't always do it every day, but when I do, I just find that I just am better at being present.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:52 I hear people talk about meditation quite a bit. I've struggled with it. I mean, what is it about the meditation that helps you so much.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:38:59 So for me, it's about removing everything outside of me and just learning to just be present and understand, like what I'm feeling in my body. Like hearing the things around me and just being where I am. And I think when you learn how to do that, when you're in the middle of a stressful situation at work, you can use those tools to get back to that place. So when it's like when I start feeling anxious, I use those tools to bring that anxiety in and just center and feel present.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:37 Have you ever had that feeling? So you you drive home and so you leave work, you drive home, you get home, and you don't remember anything about the drive home. Do you ever have?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:39:46 Oh yeah. All the time.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:48 So I feel like you mentioned being present and and I feel like many of us. And I'm. I'm guilty of this, too, where I feel like sometimes we do that with life, where will you know it? You know, beginning of the year, we're thinking, okay, this is going to be my year, right? You know, it's February and you're like, what happened? Like, so like, how do we avoid that? Because that's that's tough.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:40:12 I don't know, I mean, I wish I had the answer because I'm not good. I'm not the greatest at it. I think again, practice and I do like again practicing meditation, practicing self-care and, you know, making sure that we're making time for our family. And, you know, kind of the things that we've already talked about.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:40:34 I think you have to do those things outside of the career. I think it's so easy to just get caught up in the busyness of life. And that's that's when you just kind of black out and you're just going and you're like, all of a sudden you turn around and your kid's 15 and kissing a girl and getting mono. So, you know, I like I've.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:56 Heard, but it was terrible. Never had it. Oh.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:40:58 Oh, he just got over it. It was like a month long of. But but good for him for kissing a girl.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:03 Congrats to him. Nice job. I was happy. Absolutely. That's what we have had of us. So let me let me shift gears a little bit. When you started your firm in 2020 actually, you know what? Let's back up a little bit more. Okay. What year did you start your career as a lawyer?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:41:19 20. Well 2017.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:22 All right. 2017 passed the bar. Like, okay, if you can remember what was success.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:28 What did. What would it look like back then? What did you think it was?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:41:32 well, I wanted to be a litigator. And.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:34 So what did you think of litigator? Was I talking about that, too? Because.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:41:37 Well, so I was a paralegal for a litigation firm for eight years, so I felt like I had a good understanding of it, but I really didn't until. So what I thought it was, was, well, I thought it was a lot more time in court in front of a judge. And so I thought it was more of a performance, you know? So I thought, like, I'm on stage all the time, I can perform. So I'll really like being a litigator. Well, it's not anything like that. Not at all. Not even at all. And so, so when for me, I like pass the bar and I'm like, oh, I'm going to be a litigator. And I people are just going to think I'm so awesome.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:42:15 And they're going to think I perform so well in court. Well, here's one thing. If you're five feet tall and you're a blonde woman in Utah like it's I understand the appearance is not supposed to matter. But this was pre-COVID and so everything was still all in person. And a lot of that practice area is about intimidation, manipulation, dominance. And I didn't win in any of those categories.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:50 So it's funny. And we'll go back to that question in a second. But like I, I'm a firm believer I don't like WebEx for apparently we don't use zoom because I if I'm in person with the judge, I can massage the situation and I know I can get a better, better result for my client. So I think you're 100% right about that. But but back to you. Back to you. because I don't want to get you off to too far track, but we're talking about success. Go ahead.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:43:14 Yeah. So so for me, it looked like winning a bunch of cases. Like when it came down to it being able to stand in front of a judge and win the case.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:43:24 And yeah, that was nothing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:27 At what point did you realize that was not what it was?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:43:30 So Covid had just hit and and I'm a baby lawyer. I'm a baby litigator. And my, the the senior partner who was on this case with me, it was a dispute with an HOA. So our clients were the homeowners. They had an issue with their foundation. They're trying to get the HOA to pay for it, trying to determine was it like a common area issue. And ultimately so Covid had just hit. It's like our second deposition that we're doing via zoom, not deposition. It was a mediation. So it was our second mediation that we're doing via zoom. And my clients, they we end up getting to the conclusion that they're only going to get this certain amount from. So the HOA is like, you know what? We're going to settle. We're going to settle this case. So me, I'm like, great, this is a win. And they're like, but and we're negotiating back and forth.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:44:27 And then they throw out the number and the my clients are like, well that's in addition to our attorney fees that we're paying you. Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:34 So it was.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:44:35 Like no, no. And and at this point my senior partner is on like a family vacation. And so it's just me and and I said, no, that's not it. And anyway, they got so mad And we're in this mediation on zoom. And like I am flustered and they start yelling at me and calling me names. And they storm out of the law firm screaming obscenities, walking out of the hall. And I'm sitting there like, we just won. Like, like I just I just got you some money. And it was more than what the attorney fees were. But it wasn't. It wasn't enough to pay for the damage to the house, which is, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:20 One of the most frustrating things for me. And, and what we do is we get a fantastic offer for our clients. Fantastic. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:26 Like and I'm talking like we've hit a grand slam. Oh, yeah. And they think it's not even close to enough. Right. And, you know, I was talking to my friend. She's a lawyer in some other state. We have we have a case we're recently dealing with on this. It is so frustrating. So I mean, do you ever encounter something like that in, in your dental dental practice work occasionally.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:45:46 But not as much. And so, you know, because I did some pie too. And it was the same. You know, it's like a fender bender. And I'm like, I just got you $6,000 and they're like, that's garbage. And I'm like, no, you don't understand like that. You had a fender bender, and this is this is good. And with transitions, like the goal is to get to the end of the sale of the practice and to have both people be happy and to continue to have a relationship because, you know, there there's a transition period.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:46:22 You've got the seller handing over the practice to the buyer. So you want them to continue to have a relationship. And and yeah, I'll have occasionally I'll have a disgruntled client that doesn't think I got them the best deal. And you know, there's some negotiation points. Maybe they're buying the building and the practice and they feel like they're paying too much for it, or they feel like they had to concede on a number of things. It doesn't happen quite as much, but I think you're going to find those personalities in every practice area with with every kind of client. And so I think it's just learning how to deal with that kind of personality in general, no doubt.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:57 All right. So I'm going to I'm going to loop back because what what I ultimately wanted to get to was success. When you started the firm in 2020, what it looked like and how is that different from reality?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:47:10 well, honestly, for me, because I had no, I had no idea, like how much I could make as a solo firm owner.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:47:22 And, and so for me, I was like, well, if I could just like if I could just make like if I could bring in revenue $100,000 a year, then that would be good. And surprisingly, I was able to bring in a lot more than that. You've been.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:37 Very successful.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:47:38 Yeah, yeah. And so for me, it actually it has almost been the opposite where what I thought success was like. I could shoot a lot higher. And I didn't realize that, like, I could continue to shoot higher, but then at some point there's like diminishing returns where it's like you just keep shooting and then like, what are you getting back?

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:57 So it's interesting because I want to ask you about that. So what was more surprising to you that you were able to get to that number so fast, or that was it? The challenges that you face once you get to that next level? Oh yeah.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:48:11 That's it. Yeah. For me. Yeah. Because I had people say, oh no, you'll get to that number quickly.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:48:17 And I just, I just didn't necessarily believe them because I'm like, you don't you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're not a firm owner. And so for me, it's, you know, where like where I'm at now, where we're comfortable, we're making good money. But then it's like, you know, firing, hiring and firing people and managing people like that has been harder than I could have imagined. Well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:42 How so?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:48:43 Well, I've gone through, like four paralegals and all for, like, different reasons. They haven't worked out, and some of them were really good and they just quit and went and did something else.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:54 Let me ask you a pretty pointed question. Where where have you been at fault in these situations? Where's the trend?

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:49:01 So for me, it's setting expectations, managing expectations and following up with KPIs. That's where I haven't you know, for the first few I wasn't as consistent. And so, you know, I think I've been a lot better, especially with this new hire and this new paralegal where I've really said, okay, here are my expectations.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:49:27 And the very first day I said, here's how you can win with the firm. And this is exactly what I expect of you. And on top of that, here's a KPI that we're going to give you every single month. So you know exactly what I'm looking for and what I'm looking at, and we're going to go over it every month. And, you know, had I set, had I done the same thing about setting those expectations? The other thing is, you know, I don't I don't love conflict. I don't I mean, I know there are some people who I don't know how many people love it. There are some.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:57 People who there are some there's yeah, there's there's plenty.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:50:00 And and because I, I like the employee and I, you know, I want them to know they are doing a good job but they could be improving on this I think I'm not as direct. And so I'll say, you know, hey you did this wrong. And then we kind of leave it at that and don't revisit it.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:50:17 And I think for me as a manager, I could be better, you know, each month or every time or quarterly, however often, you know, we do a review by saying, you know, here are the things that I think you could work on. And being more direct about that, because when I fired this paralegal, you know, two weeks ago, she said. And it's kind of funny because she said I had no indication And whatsoever that this was coming. And I was like, really? Because in my mind, we had talked about these things and we had gone over these things. And still she said, I had no indication that this was coming.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:52 Yeah. So there's a lot of advice that people tell you, oh, your employees know. Yeah. That's not always true. We've we've had multiple people that just didn't see it coming. And I and I it's interesting. There's all these business principles and all these these thoughts and these quotes and these ideas and people. Oh, this is the way and and I think a lot of that's just nonsense.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:51:12 Oh yeah, I do too. And I mean, I had been looking to replace this girl for six months. And so I do think kind of at the end, like the last two months, I kind of gave up like because I already knew I was going to replace her. And so I think by me not communicating with her, she just was like, I'm doing a good job. And she wasn't. And I was constantly, you know, in the words of my associate attorney. I was up her ass all the time, but she didn't think I was. She didn't think that. And so so I, I think some of it is her fault, but I do think that I'm at fault as well for not clearly communicating.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:53 Yeah. There is a lot of danger in that, that phase where you know you're going to terminate them, but you kind of have to hold on to them. Yeah, but then you can get into this complacency where they just never go anywhere. And so that there is a lot of danger in that.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:52:05 Oh, that's been the last six months in my practice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:09 Yeah. That's, that's, that's a tricky one. And it's so there's some that this is a lesson that I've learned over the last year or so where if, if I'm feeling a certain way and it could be as simple as someone says your name wrong and you're like, I could just I could not correct it and just be. But the lesson is, is no. My name is Tyson. You know, it's not it's not Travis. I get I get Travis all the time for some weird reason.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:52:31 Oh well, as an Ashley, I get Amanda. Amber.

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:34 Yeah. So whenever it doesn't matter if you're talking to an employee, a friend, whatever. No, you said no, that's that's not okay. Or like, especially with employees, you have to be. And this is I I've gotten better at this, but I am I've been a people pleaser, you know. So being direct with them and setting setting the boundaries, setting the guidelines is is so important.

Speaker 5 00:52:56 Yeah.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:52:57 And and you talk about boundaries. And I think this is really important because I think specifically with this, this most recent paralegal, I think she thought we were like friends, like, you know, because like I got a little like we got too friendly to where she felt comfortable, like being super sassy with me as her boss. And even my associate attorney was like, man, she is sassy. And she's like, I would never talk to my boss that way. And I just let it happen. And I think as a boss, you know, like, you can't be the Michael Scott of bosses. And so I think you do have to set the boundaries with employees. I'm the boss. You're the employee. It doesn't mean you have to, like, be a hard ass, or be rude or act like you're better than them. But I think she just felt like we were friendlier than we were.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:49 Where do you think that line is? Because that is an interesting one.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:52 And I and I also agree with you because I know with our employees, it's and we've gone through this transition where we wanted to get a lot of players, we wanted to replace what we had before. And there's a significant difference in the culture. It's significantly better where we have fun. We all, we all get along. But there's also this professionalism where they they you know, I don't ask for them to call me boss, but, you know, they'll call me boss. Things like that. Where again, I don't ask for that. But there is like this. They they show me this respect. I show them respect. Those lines are never really blurred. So where. But where is that line? Because it can be. It can be.

Speaker 5 00:54:28 Tricky, you.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:54:29 Know, I don't know that I found it because I like to be liked, and so I don't think I've quite found where the line is. And I and it's something that I have to work on personally and, and figure out, like at what point are we getting too friendly to where they feel like they can be sassy and talk back to me? And, you know, when I'm giving them feedback, they can argue with me, and I haven't quite found that yet.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:58 Well, if you find it, let me know. It is tough. All right. So let me let me read another Instagram post. It was from July of 2020.

Speaker 5 00:55:06 So we're in this before.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:08 Yes, we're in the middle of the pandemic, but we're all just doing the very best we can. We all have different dreams and goals. We parent differently, we have different hobbies and talents. We have different beliefs and perspectives and life experiences, and that's all beautiful and powerful.

Speaker 5 00:55:23 Did I write that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:24 You did.

Speaker 5 00:55:25 Oh, that's amazing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:26 And what I find interesting about it is it encapsulates practicing law because I know you didn't intend it that way, but there is no right way. There is several different ways. We're all just trying to get through this. So I wanted to get your perspective on it, even though you may not remember writing that.

Speaker 5 00:55:44 Oh gosh.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:55:45 I mean, but I remember that time so well because it was a very divisive time. I think, like for our nation in General Zod.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:55:54 Yeah, it was it was super weird, really divisive. We were trying to learn how to do that. You know, I'm like homeschooling my kids, which I never wanted to do. That was never a thing that I wanted to do. I was July, so they weren't in school. But like and I think you have to I mean, you have to let people do and be who they are, you know, do the things that they're going to do and, and be who they are and, and accept that and accept that not everybody's going to believe the same way that you are, and they're not going to do things the same way that you're going to do to do them. And, you know, especially right now, like we're in an election year. We just had an assassination attempt on a presidential candidate. And, you know, whoever is going to win the presidential election.

Speaker 5 00:56:45 It's.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:56:46 Going to cause even more division than there already is, if that's even possible. And and I think if you step back and you look at it and you just say, it's so great that we can just we can do what we want to do.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:57:00 Like we live in a country where like as a woman and as a mom, I can be a lawyer and I can own my own business and I can practice whatever religion or not, practice religion. And, and and I think that is beautiful. And so I think, you know, if we allow everyone else to have that, you know, I mean, I don't have to agree with someone's political beliefs, but I could still love them as a person in a human and honestly, Covid like really helped me be a lot more tolerant. and where I think it kind of did the opposite for some people, but for me, I just like I just had to learn to be tolerant of people who didn't feel and think the way that I did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:43 All right. So the last question I ask you is going to be, it may seem out of left field after that line of questioning, but we were talking about, you know, dreams and everything before. And what would it take is maybe a tough one, but what would it take to convince you to give it all up and walk away from your practice?

Speaker 5 00:58:03 Oh.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:58:05 Well, I would need to know that I could continue to live the lifestyle that I'm living now. So it would like a potential, you know, my I'm in a really good position where my husband has a great job. I could walk away right now and we would actually be fine. Like we would be able to pay our bills and, you know, continue to pay our mortgage and live in our in our home. And so so I'm in a different position than some people find themselves in. And which is and I'm like, I am going to acknowledge as a really privileged thing to say. So like, yeah, it's annoying and and privileged. But so I think for me, it would take knowing that my family would like, would be taken care of, but that I am doing something else that I really love. So if you know, I already did the music thing. I did it for almost 20 years and it was fun to do it at that time. I think there's a time and season for everything.

Ashley Garbe Smith 00:59:03 And so some people say like, what if you were offered a job to go and play the keyboard for a touring band? For me, I'm like, well, I like I kind of already did that. So and it was it was fun. But I don't know that I, I'm, I'm in my 40s. I don't know that I want that anymore. And so it would take it would take knowing that whatever I'm doing is fulfilling for me and my family.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:30 So it's interesting that you say that because actually this is where I wanted to go. It took me a second to to remember the person that talked with us. But Eric, Eric Weinstein talks about this and he talked. I don't know if you know who that is, but he was talking about how what we should actually be teaching kids instead of teaching them to follow our passion. It's actually to figure out what you're really good at and do that thing. So even if you're not passionate about it, figure out what you're good at and do that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:59 Don't worry about following your passion because what happens most of the time, and I did not intend to bring this up and talk about this, but it is interesting that you said that because let's use music for a second. Right? And I'm sure you were great at it. I'm not saying that you weren't, but there was a point where you had to give that up and then you you're you're good at being a lawyer. You're great at being that. So I wonder what your thoughts are, because if many times people follow their passion and and they fail. And we talked about failure a little bit. But sometimes it can be really, really devastating. And it can have it's more devastating than it is helpful. So I wonder I wonder what you think about that, because that's something that's interesting, because I know I'm guilty of telling my kids, hey, follow your passion. What do you really want to do?

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:00:43 Yeah, well, I completely you said it's Eric Weinstein. Oh my gosh. And maybe I've heard him on a podcast before because I remember hearing about this and 100% agreeing with it because I think for me, when music became work, it was no longer fun.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:01:01 And so meaning when I when I first started college, I had no intention of being a lawyer. I actually went in on a music scholarship and realized I hated it so much because number one, I hated playing classical music on the piano, hated it. And and it was just so much work and I couldn't do it for fun. And so I think some people find when they follow their passion and then it just becomes work. And so I still play music as a hobby, but I don't do it for work. And and so it's a separation where I can still have something to do that I enjoy. But I also think, like following your passion could be a terrible idea, because what if you're passionate about singing but you really suck? Like, what if you're one of those people that go on American Idol and like, why aren't these people's parents telling them that they're terrible? Like, do your parents hate you?

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:54 And so someone needs to tell you the truth. Yeah.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:01:58 And so just like, because you're passionate about something, doesn't mean you're necessarily good at it.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:02:02 What I do know, like, for me, I'm good at connecting with people and, and and I'm a hard worker in general. So whatever I do like I work hard at it. And and so I think you can find, you can find a little bit if you're doing something that you're good at, you're going to eventually like learn to like it. And I think it's a very I'm an elder millennial, maybe like I'm a xenial because I'm like right there in between Gen X and a millennial.

Tyson Mutrux 01:02:34 I don't like to admit it either.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:02:35 Yeah, yeah, I think we're around the same age. And and so like for me, I remember people just being like, it's such a millennial thing to follow your passion. Like, you know, if you don't love what you're doing at work, then quit your job and do something you love. And for me, as you know, like more on the Gen X side, I'm like, well, that's bull crap. Like, if you're doing work, work and then find something you love to do and do that on the side.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:03 Do you know the study about the kids and getting cookies for playing chess? You know, the study. So there's this study about these kids that that were playing chess. And what they would do is the ones that would win, they would give them a cookie. And what they found was is the ones that that did that. They stopped playing because they didn't. They lost their joy for it. So when you were mentioning the, you know, getting paid for it, it became a job. There is a lot to that. And I do think it does become dangerous. And when you when you were talking about you, you wanted to be a litigator, you start making money. I do think that that that changes things. And it does make it a little bit more difficult to follow our passion. So let's end with, for the young lawyers that they want to have this beautiful career and do all these great things and or new law firm owners, what advice would you give to them so that they they can do an excellent job, but then also follow their passion at the same time without without ruining it?

Speaker 5 01:04:06 So I would.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:04:07 Say, don't listen to any of your professors in law school, because they're all going to tell you to go to big law or do a clerkship. And, and I mean, I'm not saying that nobody's happy in big law. What I am saying is that most of my friends that followed that advice, like either went away from big law or they're just working crazy hours. And maybe some of them like it and they don't, but that there are so many things you can do as an attorney, you know, because I just thought, oh, litigation is the way right? This like, this is what you have to do to be a successful lawyer. And like, it was sexy to write like, oh yeah, I'm a litigator.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:48 But all the all the movies and shows.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:04:49 Right. Like it seemed to everyone's like, oh, were you like suits? And I was like, yeah. Which. No. Like, I freakin hate that show. I actually love the show. I just hate what people perceive my magicians.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:05:01 My career is. And and so I think exploring if you would have told me five years ago that I would be helping dentists buy and sell their practice practices, I would be like, that sounds like the most boring thing ever.

Speaker 5 01:05:15 But.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:05:16 I love what I do, I love what I do, I love my clients, and I love that I'm my own boss. And I don't have five senior partners telling me five different things like five ways to draft a freaking complaint. And so explore as many areas as you can. Don't necessarily listen to your law schools that are telling you clerkships and big law are the only way to go because. And they'll all tell you not to go solo. No one in law school was ever like, yeah, you should start your own firm. And but it was number one, the best decision that I ever made. And it's taught me so much and I've grown so much and I really love it. And I love it way more than being a litigator and working for someone else.

Speaker 5 01:06:00 Thanks, Ashley.

Ashley Garbe Smith 01:06:01 Well thank you.